I know a couple local guys using them. Also know some guys who turn their amps, to the Wall, so sound comes out the back only. I used to use a twin Reverb in the 70's live, but we were not a loud band at all, we could not be having practiced in neighborhoods, and small rooms.
Like the other comment it did also make me think of the late, great Jeff Beck and his "trick" of pointing his Marshall 4x12's and his Pro Juniors backwards so as not to "kill" everyone else in the band and first few rows! Myself I don't do many gigs these days (mostly acoustic anyway) but the last few amped up gigs I've used my Blonde Tone Master Deluxe Reverb with the "attenuator" aka "master volume" set according to the venue or setting. I've still never used it on full power yet but its done the job perfectly every time.
We do need to stop being so meek and accept having to compromise and compromise and compromise and turn down, turn down, turn down. There is a reasonable compromise that can be made, but when electric guitarists are talking about “maybe we shouldn’t play through amps at all” then that should be a clear indication that we have compromised too far. A guitar amplifier turned up loud enough that the guitarist can hear themselves onstage and play with some dynamic range is NOT too loud, I don’t give a damn what anyone says. If everyone is always telling you to turn down when you’re playing through a Deluxe Reverb on 4, the problem isn’t that your amp is turned up too loud, the problem is that you need to play better. That’s gonna ruffle some feathers, but it’s true. The answer is to play with more sensitivity and dynamics, not to turn the amp down, killing your dynamic range and actually just making everything sound worse. The problem is that just because amplifiers CAN be turned down to nothing, the expectation is that they SHOULD. Sound engineers accept that a drumset is going to be, to a certain extent, naturally loud. So they mix the sound with that in mind. Guitarists simply aren’t given that same grace. They’re told to relinquish all the volume to the PA system, rather than fostering an environment where the sound from the PA and the sound from/on the stage are balanced and in harmony and everyone’s happy. RE: “Well, good luck not getting any gigs/not getting paid”…hey man, I get that. You gotta put food on the table. And sometimes getting paid is clearly so much more important than getting that sweet ToAn. But let’s be honest, is it even effing worth it any more? Bands are still getting paid what they were getting paid in 1990, and we can’t even play as loud as they could or have as much fun as they could. I hate to say it, but if making a living is your concern, you might want to consider getting a job at the post office or something. Slogging through a bunch of songs you don’t even like at uninspiring volumes for poverty money…worth it? Up to you, I guess. Guitarists have compromised and accepted certain “realities” for a LONG time now. We’ve been VERY patient, but it’s time to start asserting certain other things that venue owners and sound workers need to accept: 1. A live band is not a jukebox. There isn’t a simple master volume knob you can turn up or down. They are playing live instruments and in order for them to hear themselves and one another well enough to play the show, there is a certain volume ceiling that is non-negotiable. If that volume floor is too loud for you, don’t hire a band. Simple as. 2. A live band consists of people. People who have bills to pay and who have worked very hard for many years to be able to perform music to a professional standard for your enjoyment. It is, in many senses, skilled labor. PAY THEM. It doesn’t need to be an exorbitant sum, but the same dollar amount as 30 years ago is obviously not enough any more. If you can’t afford to pay the band, don’t hire a band. Simple as.
Before anyone comes at me in the comments with some crap about “you’re inexperienced, once you get a few gigs under your belt you’ll understand how the real world works blah blah”, no. I’m 36 years old and have put THOUSANDS of gigs under my belt over the past 20 years. I’m well aware of how “the real world works” re: the sad trend towards silent stages, and I’m sick of it. Especially for how little we get paid, I’m done compromising. It’s time to fight back.
@@johnballantyne3458 It's a long way to the top if you wanna rock n' roll........anyone else besides me remember "if it's too loud.....you're too old"?
I dunno man. I know I'm outside looking in. I'm a classical tuba player, and there's a lot of chameleon work playing with different groups. The second I say, "screw you I do this the way I want" is the day I never get called for the gig again. This is coming from a tuba player that has looked at bringing instruments other than tuba (like bass trombone, but then I realised that would be another $7000 expense for me) to a gig to better suit the environment. I have played guitar for 20 years, but I don't gig it, so I may be out of step here.
The 2020s is the Era of the Pansy..."tube amps are loud and heavy, so I'll pretend digital sounds just as good"...remember going to shows and feeling a natural high for the rest of the night from the sound waves beating on you for a few hours?
@@jasondorsey7110 I got rid of my valve amps as they weighed 60lb plus apart from the tiny Electar I wish I'd kept. But back then, 5W was considered insufficient to gig with. Had I kept the Electar I'd have got it modified to add a loop to add reverb, though, somehow. And swap out the tiny speaker.
@@jasondorsey7110 there's something to be said for the power you feel when it's loud and the apparent interaction between the field of sound around you and the strings, which seem to come alive. I know it's subjective, but if it's quiet the strings feel stiffer. From a sound engineer's perspective, I can see the benefit of a quiet stage, though. And for the hearing of anyone on stage unless everyone wears earplugs. I have an IEM system I've never used as I worry that I might get screaming feedback from a microphone fed directly into my brain, although with the more common use of feedback suppressors and quiet stages that's now relatively uncommon. It used to be every gig when the singer carelessly pointed a microphone at a monitor while the drummer was making some sort of random adjustment to the kit.
Drummer weighing in -- there's no reason that a drummer shouldn't also be prepared for various volume situations like a guitarist. At the very least, plenty of sound deadening gels should always be on hand. If you're serious, have multiple drumsets and cymbal set ups for various volume requirements. My "quiet" acoustic set up included cheap Sabian B8 cymbals. They weren't the coolest looking piece of gear, but I could fully open them up rather than guys with nice cymbals that could barely hit them hard enough to get a full sound and keep quiet. Also, electronic drums exist.
We did a filming session earlier in the year where the drummer had some of those quiet like stunt cymbals that actually sounded pretty good (relatively) and might be useful for those dreaded limiter gigs? And on the eKit thing - we had one venue this year where it was line array and eKit (mandatory) - it actually wasn't as bad as I was expecting...
I think that there is a special relationship and sound between a real guitar amp and acoustic drums on stage that just can’t be beat. Especially with loud drumming. But also with a light and dynamic drummer. I always base my sound and volume on the drums first and then the full band mix. Cymbals and guitar amp blend is important I believe.
@@JohnWiku I'd argue with that. A lot of WEA catalog stuff from the '70s-80s has been reissued in the past ten years and you'd be hard pressed to find any new masters that sound better than the originals. OTOH, all of the stereo Beatles stuff they've done since '09 sounds great. It's a case-by-case basis.
So it's for obnoxious corksniffers? Reality most of these guys complaining about amps can't play for shit and have no ear. Rhett Shull gear head types.
This is why we've moved to 100% digital with digital drums and In Ear Monitors. We play weddings, wineries, breweries, and private parties. We can adjust our sound to any level needed for the venue. We even needed to play inside a host's living room when it rained at their private party. With the IEMs, I can play as loud as I find comfortable. It's not as fun a playing with an amp but we are getting to play and the venues like us because we aren't driving away their customers.
@@MotownGuitarJoe Our band leader is very progressive and was still on the fence. Our drummer and other guitar player wanted no part of it. But, we'd had several gigs where our stage volume made a mess and everyone (except me who was already using IEMs) struggled with the gig. I was the only one on IEMs and the others tried them and were sold. They were kicking themselves about why we waited so long. The drummer was using a cheap digital kit in our rehearsal space but after months of seeing that they just worked better bought a nice digital kit and he's in love.
Been a pro muso for 50 years. Things change and you adapt and move on. Gone from bands with a Marshall 100w top and 2 4x12's in a tiny pub to Pod pedal and Bose L1 and everything in between. You will find a workaround that fits you. Anyone that wants to play loud should stay in their bedroom and save themselves and others from their talent. Talent will always win through!
Its normally the drummers fault. They start off quiet, but by the second set, they've had a couple more beers and start knocking the sh1t out of everything.
Old man here.... Im not giving up my tube amps. A cranked amp is what inspired me to strat playing guitar in the 1sr place. Its not practical...but should music be practical?
@@trev3971 what kind of work,exactly? If I understand the room, I'm getting the impression that amps are still relevant as people still use amps on jobs,esp summer festival throw-and-go type situations.
@@PhilthyCasual There are plenty of working bar and function bands that use amps. But in any situation where volume needs to be heavily controlled, those gigs are going to bands that can adapt their stage volume to be as low as asked. If you're playing in one of those bands, you need to have a silent stage solution or they'll find someone who does.
Excellent points John. I would only add that we should also consider protecting our hearing. Pointing a guitar amp directly at your head is going to put a lot of harmful high-end right at your ears. Another point might be to try to play more musically, to think about the overall band sound and how each member is contributing to dynamics, the groove, harmonic complexity, etc. I watched Trapp, Bukovac's show last night. They had a drummer, lots of amps on the stage and a Hammond and Leslie. I don't know how loud it was in the room (I bought the livestream), but it didn't feel loud and they played with a lot of dynamics.
The best sounding show I've ever heard was Chon when they played at Webster Hall in NYC during their "Grow" tour. Mario had his Vox Ac30 and Eric was on a Fender Supersonic 22. Remove the fact that these two defined a generation of new guitarists (niche and albeit short lived), their amps were extensions of their guitars. Nothing against modelers or digital rigs as I use them now but there is some truth to Amps being musical instruments in their own right.
As a veteran of the functions scene, the reality is....if you don't comply with the venue's rules,you won't get another booking. I mothballed my twin and bought a Blackstar 50r and mic'd. I have noticed guitars being so low in the mix, it's basically drums, bass and singer. I still think everyone should play at the level of the vocalist with a bit of cut through for solos( although I'm our rhythm guitarist).You are there for the paying customers, anything too loud is a bad thing.
I'm so glad I'm retired. Volume is the magic of electric guitar, if dynamics are used. I'd rather played all acoustic than to have to worry about what modern players deal with as far as volume.
Vocals are King. In a trio, the drums/snare do set a standard and guitar must sit in a pocket until the solo,when guitar must be at the volume of the vocal for a period, then guitar goes back in the pocket. This also applies to bigger bands,with keys and other instruments. Big bassy,fat guitar sounds are not good here.
I think Mick and Dan, though they try, do not really understand that they are in a different situation than many guitarists. The first thing I noticed watching their episode was that you cannot run a DR at 3 or 4 most places these days without a sound a battle. And honestly, I just want to play not battle, trick, practice diplomacy just so I can have an amp on stage. I finally gave in and got a POD Express. It’s great. It fits my budget and does what I need.
Exactly. I watched their video and I enjoy their opinions, but I didn't really think any man who owns a room full of pedals and guitars has great credibility when talking about overcoming 'option paralysis' :) Their situation is very fortunate, and it might also be more common in places like the US, where more housing is detached and has more floor space in general. But if you're living in a typical UK space, and playing in places where the guitar isn't always the most important thing, then volume really is a concern. Whether its a greater concern to you than tone is a personal call!
@@ianwillo yeah. I live in Tokyo. So... I can't do what they do. Also, I bear no grudge but, having a stock of all types of pedals, guitars and amps on hand to use for various situations is a far cry from what most of us can do. I don't have a budget for more than an amp, guitar and a couple of reasonably priced pedals.
@@GraniteSoundtrack Tokyo is a great city! But yes, pretty restrictive on space from what I remember. Is there much of a live music, independent scene there?
@@ianwillo there's live houses for various genres. Not really a pub live scene thing. Pretty pro usually too. There's a lot of tours that go through though. All the big and medium tours come through.
Wedding / corporate band player here. I go fully direct with quad cortex, and it sounds good enough through the in ears. However - I have found on multiple occasions when stepping off stage into the crowd (on wireless packs) that I take an in ear out and the sound person has me barely audible. Giving the sound person full control only works if their aesthetic actually suits the situation. There’s no point me playing a nice Nile Roger’s part if no one can hear it! I’d love to stick an amp on stage but with the percentage of venues now having harsh sound restrictions it just isn’t a feasible option as I would be told to turn it down / off anyway.
@@johnnathancordy that really is a classic - taking a solo and realising in the middle of it that the audience haven’t actually noticed! I try to play ball and be a team player stage volume wise - and when even your rhythm playing is not being put adequately out of FOH it makes me question the point of doing the gig at all! Oh to be a sax player where at least the instrument is shiny (and v loud)✨
I luckily play a lot with bands that haven’t gone all iems and I bring a Super for the big catering halls or other kinds of big rooms and a Deluxe for the barns and restaurants. When I started bringing the Super I got so many side-eye looks lol, but once people heard it and how perfect it mixes it’s only been satisfaction and compliments, those amps really were designed to sound great in these very types of bands and scenarios. I believe the tide will turn. It’s our responsibility obviously to bring the right amp for the room (and drummer 😵💫), but the mindset should shift from putting a mic on the amp so that the guitarist will turn it down, and towards a concept that you mic the amp for reinforcement only, to give a little more when needed to fill out the mains mix or to send to monitors other side of big stage.
I played digital for 17 years and bought a tube amp 3 years ago. I do not play live, i enjoy far more having the quality and the presence only a tube amp has.
I would be tempted to agree with the concept… except that DJs and bands today are routinely far louder than the wedding/clubdate bands I worked with back in the 1980s. I am all for the customer dictating volume level; I am NOT for the sound engineer doing the same. But far too many sound engineers today demand the band play quietly - then they turn up FOH to earbleed level. And once that occurs, the IEMs also have to be cranked. If you think loud amps and stage monitors damaged your hearing, wait til a few years of cranked IEMs have done their damage. Ambient loud is one thing; direct-injected loud is something else entirely.
In Texas I haven’t run into any volume issues gigging my Deluxe Reverb with the volume set b/t 4.5 - 6.5 depending on the venue and almost always mic’d. These are night clubs, bars, and multi art venues.
From playing live and touring for 50yrs there is a golden rule that has ALWAYS applied: A BAND IS ALWAYS AS LOUD AS IT'S DRUMMER...every musician wants to be heard... Once in ears became prevalent the stage "FUN" ended...used to be 10-20 people in the wings on both sides of the stage creating a great party atmosphere...then all of a sudden all they could hear was the drums...goodbye, they all left...🤷♂
I'm 70 years old. I've been playing guitar in bands since 1967. I've played thru everything from 100W Marshall and Ampeg amps (in the '60s and '70s) to a tweed Princeton (5W, 8" spkr) with a mic in front of it. There's a reason they started putting master volume knobs on guitar amps about 50 years ago! Nowadays I play thru little combo amps with 5 or 10 watts and an 8 or 10 inch speaker. I have an original (not a re--issue) '65 Deluxe (no reverb), and to my ears now (not always in the past) that amp is LOUD. I like to hear what I'm doing, but I don't like for my ears to be ringing when I go to bed. And I do NOT play wedding gigs!
Eugh, I was interested at first but trying to get through all this I just realized...everyone now just massively overthinks absolutely everything and it's driving all of us totally nuts and gradually sapping all of the life and soul from society. In it's place we just get completely corporatized superficiality and total oversaturation of everything. Since when did any of this suddenly become a "problem"? People have used amps for every kind of gig for decades and had a great time...suddenly now we have abundant software and endless digital bollox, it's now a problem? Why? You have a master volume...turn it down a bit and crack on having a blast in life. Or just use some digital setup if that's what you have to or is what you prefer...but why are we making it a "problem"? Why the heated debate as if to divide everyone into a purely tribal one or the other mindset? Amps are suddenly either totally pointless or you're some sort of grandpa who doesn't "get it"? No, amps are great, digital can also be great. They're tools that ARE different, especially live, and each have their own merits. Trying to endlessly overanalyse absolutely every last detail of everything down to precisely what dB a wedding function needs to have the band at is justmental.
I've just played a local festival with a trio for the first time in more years than I care to remember, doing vocals and guitar - rhythm with a few lead lines for luck - and going for an "edge of breakup tone". Thanks to the really helpful sound-tech, I got the best on-stage sound I've ever been lucky enough to work with (light years better than anything I remember back in the '70s!), and people from the audience came up afterwards to praise the guitar sound. What was I using?... I've got a busted foot, so to travel light, I'd left my amp at home and I just took a NUX MG-30. I love playing through a valve amp - I just feel an extra level of "connection", for want of a better term - but I was shocked by how good the the MG-30 sounded and "felt".
I'm 70. Still play 4 times a week. Done 7000 gigs in my lifetime. I always use tube amps, tried all the modelers. Modelers are OK for people who do small gigs, but they do not sound or more importantly, react like tube amps, and when you're touring, or big clubs, amps are king. If I do a small gig, I use a PR, if it's bigger, my DR or silverface bassman. And I do not up the amp super loud, I cover it, and if I need it loud, I turn up my stage monitor. The key is to cover it, usually with a v shaped sound absorber of some sort, you can make your own.
I am a gigging guitarist and play 99% of jobs with a real tube amp. I know how to use it though. Adjust your tone and the volume level to the venue and band and when it sits in the mix right, no one will complain. I do silent stage gigs too, but an amp is always better - sounds better, feels better, sits better in the mix. Just learn to use it!
Life became soooo sweet when our drummer switched to an electronic kit! Most folks can't tell the difference, as it's a full size kick and toms. As a guitarist/vocalist and using traditional pedals through an amp modeller (Two Notes Opus) I can now hear myself, and we can adapt our volume to almost any space. Biggest bonus of all - sound checks take 15 minutes - not the 45 mins to an hour we took before, mostly sorting the drums out....AND...my ears don't ring for days after each gig! Now if only we could persuade the bassist......
Yeah I thought that comment from Mick was a bit odd imo (I say that respectively) as some gig have to be silent stages. I’m currently doing the show We Will Rock You. I’m literally playing solos in every tune. There are 40 headset microphones on stage, so a modeller is the only option. Literally. So I’m using an FM3 & pedals. It sounds killer. Just reality if you want to do theatre show gigs. I love playing loud but sometimes you just can’t
I agree. I play pit band gigs a lot, use a Helix floor, and we’re all on headphones. Sometimes the drums are acoustic, but sometimes they’re a electronic kit. It honestly sounds better than when I used to use amp / pedals, even though it was an amp with excellent master volume (Fuchs ODS).
Yeah this is so true, I would say 95% of all theatre gigs are direct and even on some function gigs I’ve been asked to not bring an amp. I’m not sure if it’s sometimes because of negative stereotype of guitarists being ‘too loud’ or wanting more control over sound. I totally agree with John in this video that the reality is people have to adapt to work as a guitarist. Personally, I would much prefer to go direct and have a pay cheque than forcibly play a loud amp for the sake of being a ‘guitarist’ whatever that means. As well the thing that no-one seems to mention is that going direct means a more consistent sound, you can actually hear what you sound like through IEMs and this can inform your practice as a guitarist, meaning better technique and rehearsed parts. It’s part and parcel now of being a working guitarist that you have to adapt too.
When your entire career is built around saying the only acceptable way to play guitar is through machines that only sound good at high volumes, you are sort of stuck fighting everyone all the time to demand the right to play at high volumes.
Yep I went digital as well. I use my Boss Gt1000 Core for Sunday worship. My worship leader was impressed on how good it sounded through the FOH. Then at home, I play the Boss into frfr. What is nice, even at low volumes your tone still sounds consistent.
Here's couple of tips for bands that don't use IEM's and only use wedges and real amps/cabs on stage. Set the overall volume to acoustic drums so that guitars and bass are loud enough to be heard over drums. That's about it, no need to be louder than that. Get a good balance between drums, guitars, bass, vocals etc. BEFORE you even go on the stage. Set the cabs to side of the stage, pointing to the band, so they act as monitors for guitars and then there's no need to put them on the wedges so much. That way you can have lead/backing vocals much louder on monitors. Also use supercardioid mics for vocals so there's no bleed from guitars and drums. I've never had any problems and not even once had to turn my amp down to almost zero by sound guys. I use a 100w/50w tube amp with GOOD master volume and depending on the size of the venue and the stage I bring either 4x12 or 2x12 cab. MOST of the time 2x12 is way to go. If I do small duo gig I bring my 20w 1x10 combo. I nowadays use Bluguitar blubox so my FOH sound comes from that, which sounds absolutely killer, and I could totally go direct/silent stage with this rig, but In my opinion bands sound better when you have real cabs on stage versus everything going direct. Guitars especially get buried in the mix very easily and overall sound of the band is muddy. Now on a huge festival stage that doesn't matter cause you won't be hearing the cab anyway, but smaller clubs. Totally different story. Even more when the PA is shit. So it's all about balance and and drummers knowing how to play to a room. Now if you 're playing with a click track/backing tracks forget everything I said and go direct.
This is a cold, hard, fact. During sound check, a timid drummer is going to affect the mix. They need to play at the highest “normal” gig volume during sound check. I hate having to constantly adjust my amp volume because the drummer is now teeing off. Acoustic drums and cymbal frequencies are the template for everything else. That being said, guitarists can help their place in the mix by adding in some midrange. I’m not talking quacky midrange, but too much scoop won’t cut through and you’ll have all kinds of frequency cancellation. Each instrument/player needs to understand how to fit their sonic profile into the mix. Unfortunately, not knowing this leads to just turning up, which exacerbates the problem.
I still go to gigs regularly where amps are on stage. It's not dying in any way. Sure, you can't bring a plexi and wack it on 10, but a deluxe reverb, or anything that style and wattage on volume 3 sounds glorious anyway ... perfectly loud enough to cut through but not too loud to blow faces off.
We don't use traditional amps in the band I'm in. Both myself (bass) and the guitarist swapped to FRFR speakers and modelling pedalboards. Load-ins and -outs are quick and efficient, with no bad backs or whacked shins from shifting heavy amps, and the stage mix is always spot-on. We played the Busfest VW festival over the weekend and didn't even bother taking our speakers (both Headrush). The sound was excellent and the load-out was a matter of maybe two minutes for me and the guitarist. It's definitely the way forward.
I think it may be that it's guitars that are almost dead, that is except for guitar players who play in their bedrooms, and maybe 's that's good thing. In fact music as we used to know it is mostly dead for most people. They'd much rather play with their phones. In fact it might actually be that life as we used to know it is dead having been displaced by phones. But if you're a guitarist who likes to play at home, amps can be very cool. Deluxe Reverbs are definitely still cool.
I may have mistaken the TPS point mentioned here, but I thought it was to give the sounds at sound check in such an order that you don't get told to turn down because of perceived loudness in stead of actual loudness.
If I go to a live gig and nobody is playing into a real amp, I'll walk out. Fake sound = fake beer at the bar. Might as well have inflatable women to dance with be bored to death.
A PR, covered with a baffle of some sort, turned to about 4 with pedals, and your own monitor for your guitar. That's the way to go. I can't tell hiw many guitarists that have seen my setup are emulating it.
The silent stage is a reality for many gigging musicians in the church, function bands, and large-scale pop gigs. My gigging life is elsewhere, playing jazz clubs in New York and frequently touring with an artist who likes to have energy and vibration on stage: live drums, Hammond organ, electric bass, electric guitar (Deluxe Reverb on 4). We still use wedges, not in-ear monitors. It is difficult for me to get excited about playing music without an amplifier. As good as the technology is these days, it comes down to FEEL for me. Like, if we collectively decided: “We are not using traditional guitars anymore. We are going to use MIDI controllers, with a library of predictably fabulous tones.” That would be a marvel, embraced by many players - but I’d rather stay home. I don’t mean to rain on anyone’s parade here. This is just my perspective. Do what you love, and adapt to modern-day working realities. There’s so many ways to embrace the guitar!
Def played lots of shows in smaller bars and pubs where the only thing going through the pa were vox and maybe a tiny bit of kick drum, and no minitors. The stage volume WAS the volume of the band. If the drummer had gone full tilt, he would have been way too loud. You would just have your buddy stand in the crowd while you jammed and gave you the thumbs up or down to turn your amp up or down to macth the drummers volume lol
I don’t relate to this vs. that. I use whatever the best tool for the job is. That could be a Fender Twin with a Les Paul or a Quad Cortex with an Ibanez AZ2022. I’ve used Kemper, Princeton, H5, Boss Core, Quilter Toneblock, Mesa Lonestar, Fractal AX8, ToneX, Quilter phantom block, Rivera Chubster 40, Blues Jr…I think about the venue, band, genre, instrument, and cartage, then use the rig that suits the situation. For IEM gigs it’s modelers all day. Otherwise it’s an amp of various sizes. It’s really that simple for me: what’s the monitoring situation?
With many of the newer amps offering DO and power attenuation, I'm actually seeing more amps on stage. After 50+ years playing, always with an amp behind me, and now working with my church's praise team, I'm most comfortable with that amp close at hand. That allows me to determine my sound rather than someone else.
Right? Not all sound techs know what to do,lolz. I do not care to depend on technical support (using a QC) when I can bring an amp and have more control over my sound.
Watching Dan & Mick was the first time in a while that made me think about an amp set up again because that rig seems genuinely awesome. But then you think about the helix/fractal etc and realise you basically have the Pete Cornish switching system that you always wanted, which was completely unobtainable not so long ago. I don’t think that extra 5% you get from an amp is worth ruining your back and hearing for, and the audience don’t give a rats what you use.
I'd love to play at any volume I wish, but that's not reality in most clubs. Mick and Dan will have tinnitus very soon I'm afraid. We've had to switch to smaller amps and getting crunch from pedals where necessary. It's not necessarily preferred, but we can hear each other and the sound man and audience is happy. Even in the studio, if you play live together, you can't always isolate when you really need to hear each other and respond in kind. Your milage may vary.
You can use a plexiglass perspex screen around the drums. Cuts down volume and still allows them to play at normal power. Most of the bars in Nashville use baffles around the guitar amps.
The reality is amps have to be turned down to the point of not being heard by the guitar player so why even bring it? Kemper, QC,Helix, etc are the real life solution
You can bring an amp, use an attenuator or dummy load and speaker sim or an isolation box with a microphone in if you don't want to use a simulator. To tame a 60W all tube head for recording I actually used an old 1970s 3-way hi-fi speaker with good power handling and wired the woofer directly out, bypassing the cross-over. The sound was very similar to a conventional guitar cabinet but the sensitivity was about 10dB less. That turned it into effectively a 6W amp. That's still surprisingly loud, though.
@@wbertie2604that's why you bring a Kemper or any of these modellers to save yourself the headache of setting all these extra stuff. As for recording, of course- real tangible amp and speakers will always be the best option where lugging and logistics aren't that much relevant.
@@davegale9116 they definitely do. It's just a simple fact that most venues demand lower volumes these days Gigging with a Princeton reverb used to be unthinkable. Now it's about the right size of amp.
More amp companies need to incorporate attenuators in their amplifiers (ie Hughes & Kettner) if they want to remain popular. I use Rivera amps, but use an 18 watt H&K tubemeister for occasional small gigs and can take it down to 5 watts if need be for rehearsals and it is still more than loud enough to cope. Spending anything between £400 to £800 on a "name" attenuator (just to drop the dbs)does NOT make good economic sense to me as I'm no longer a pro. So it would be a big plus for those of us who still love our valves, if amp makers could take a leaf out of H&Ks book. There is way too much compromise going on and there needs to be less of it, you can still have a great tone without it being a health risk. "Silent stage" just does nothing for me at all, a soulless and sterile environment when it comes to playing live . . .totally weird ! .
I live on the east coast of America and my band has gone through some major changes over the last couple years. We were a 5 piece band with 3 guitar players. The loud guy got kicked out. But the big thing for us was the drummer sets the volume. Knowing this we have always been a loud rock band. Last year we decided to make the conscious decision to get direct in tones and the drummer is now using an electric drum kit. I use a Boss Katana 100 MKII now for over a year vs my Vox ac30 that couldn’t get to the right volume to sound right. Now our band gets nearly double the gigs we were getting because we understand we are just background noise to one’s night out. We’re a cover band and we get that people still wanna hear the band, but they also wanna hear their conversation to the person next to them. So we are all direct in and are now a three piece. Some places I turn the speaker off completely and only do direct in.
One prominent point from the TPS video is being glossed over. This is not a battle we're going to win overnight; It's the start of turning the tide ... with reasonable solutions like in TPS. There is no question many soundmen/venues will push-back on on-stage amps. We have to push back and be willing to walk away. (Obviously, if you have to work to put food on the table your hands are more tied. And if you prefer in-ears/modelers/silent stages that's fine too). Maybe we win; Maybe we lose. But the TPS video is trying to rally the troops.
I've done some time running front of house sound for various set ups as well as doing a fair bit of gigging with both live amps and modellers and I'mma just say this debate is usually fueled more by ignorance than anything else. I can absolutely mix with/around amps, but a lot of the "too loud" conversation comes from a loudness arms race. Unless you have a slant cab then your amp is pointed at your ankles and you don't hear it as well as others in the room, so now lets say there's 2 guitarists who both have amps who keep turning themselves up because "I can't hear myself", soon it turns into noisy unmixable slop. Another source of awful loudness issues is the monitor wedge. I've played with someone who had a 100w marshall with a slant cab and STILL asked for his amp in his own wedge. Without even getting into the phasing you're causing yourself, if you have all that AND you're cranking everyone else in the wedge AND you keep asking for more vocals the entire thing is going to just turn into a feedback mess. Rule of thumb, never put your own amp or any drums in the monitor, and put effort into trying to have as quiet of wedge mix as possible. you actually hear better at lower SPLs anyway so you'll play better AND have more separation between instruments if you get comfortable at lower volumes on stage. gear guidelines: if you're playing a house show or small bar then you want a proper amp but keep the wattage under control. Use an amp stand to help you hear yourself better. If you're playing a larger bar or a club with decent wedges then you can either go with amps or modellers but plan on also having either a hybrid set up or an FRFR cab if you're going modeller. If you're playing a "pro" gig (large tours, churches, house bands, weddings) then you should have both solutions available and discuss with the venue which is better for a given gig. Any time you're using IEMs then modellers are better. Also remember that most sound engineers are over worked and under paid, if you put a little effort into making their job easier that leaves more time for them to focus on making you sound good. So even if they're being a goober, just try and work together because anyone who works that job is passionate about musing and making bands sound good.
I have a hybrid approach. I use a Friedman IR-X, going into an OX Stomp to go direct to FOH, but I also have a separate non cab-simulated line going into my Powerstage 700 and V30 loaded 112 cab for stage volume. And I'm a full-time professional performing and recording session guitarist.
Watched that episode. Agree on DR for tone. Love my 76 but it stays home. Got a TMDR and use it live. Feed the house with the IR and attenuate the output per the situation or go silent. Here in Nash, the Princeton has been taking over for some time and even those 12 watts are too much for some gigs. Mike Campbell used 2 Princetons to tour the world. I can see even 5 watt amps getting more popular for live work.
My ears are getting older. They're 73 now and they give me pain signals when the volumes are too loud. I hate to admit it, but 92 db hurts. I prefer to play with amps, so I'll turn them down.
I bought a Boss TAE and now my little 20w Marshall goes from 0 to 50. Screw 11, 50 is where it's at. It's such a different beast to my Helix, it's a whole quantum leap better to my ears, it feels so much better 'under the fingers'. I can be quiet as a mouse or do structural damage to the local watering hole. I can get all my sounds sorted at home and I don't have to worry about how turning up and down change the break up point. It's so transformational I'm quite emotional.
Appreciate the reality check. Love TPS but those guys get to play in a different venue-universe than most local working guitarists I know. Play amps loud locally you starve.
I have been playing over 40 years, and I am a tube amp guy...and I have NEVER bought an amp new. Part of the reason is that on the used market, you can get great amps that have barely been played or need very little work for cheap. An amp at the size that it is becomes a boat anchor to someone who might be moving around. If a person is looking to not play like they once did and go to a modeler at home situation, then the amp is generally first to go. There were times in the past when I sold my amps but kept most my gear (before modelers) only to buy used amps later. Today I buy amps I don't need. My main amp is one I bought back in 1994 (30 years ago) and I still use it today as my main sound.
I have a Fender Princeton Reverb, a Kemper Stage Profiler (set up for wireless and IEM) and a 4U rack containing a Mesa Triaxis, Lexicon MPXG2 and 2020 power amp. The Kemper will NEVER replace the Triaxis for feel and dynamics even though I've found some of the profiles of other preamps I have sound better than the real thing. There's also the influence of feedback on sustain and note bloom. The PR runs with the volume on 9 but the master is around 3 just to catch some of that touch sensitivity at low volumes and it blooms wonderfully if an eq is tweaked for the resonance peaks of the amp. All of the onstage volumes in bands I've played in have been set by the volume of the drummer and, particularly, the impact of cymbals on other instruments. In fact, I even left a band once because the drummer wouldn't reign his volume in. This was even after it was proven in one rehearsal how tighter the band was as a result of everyone being able to hear each other better.
I only play at home. I use a Boss Katana headphone amp. Along with the footswitch, app and moises it's so much better than a practice amp (all I could resonably play at home).
I quite like a silent stage. The benefits in mix quality for the people in the crowd far outweighs the negligible differences in tone (again to the average listener) as long as you FEEL good playing your guitar, what does it actually matter what the amp is?
Amp stand and hot plate attenuator for me - often with amp to one side pointing at me/cross-stage (fold back) with FOH handled by engineer. Biggest barrier to silent stage for me locally here in the US, is that in ear feeds aren’t always available and in ear mix functionality even more rare.
I highly recommend a decent attenuator like the Tone King Ironman mini...I run it with my Deluxe Reverb. You can set the amp to 10 and attenuate the volume to even bedroom levels. To my ears and many others, it only effects tone at the highest levels of attenuation
If you want to be a working guitarist, you have to do what the people employing you say. Unless you just record music in a studio and sell it, that is. I gigged with a function band recently, and they had no silent stage equipment. It was probably the loudest gig I've ever played, apart from maybe outdoor gigs where an external company supplied a huge PA system. Certainly the loudest stage volume. Still got paid. Judging by the amount of equipment now available for silent stage guitarists, there's a market for it, and so there must be demand.
I think this situation also has to do with the fact that bands are being booked in places that are not traditional live venues. In my experience, those are the least fun places to play bc the band is treated like an inconvenience. The modelling guys can have all those gigs, I dont need the work or the weirdness,lolz.
It has become absolutely ridiculous that sound guys these days can't manage to work with guitarists and bassists using amps. If the drummer is on an acoustic kit the "silent stage" doesn't exist.
The guitarist should not be bringing a loud amp to a gig in the first, expecting someone to fix all the issues with monitoring or micing it, rather than just using a modeller like anyone with a brain.
I agree that the best is to have an amp on stage. I definitely think that amp sales is taking a knock due to modellers. I use modelling extensively but I recommend using your own “powered speaker” for your own reference and could give the traditional amp “feeling” and “feedback”. There are various options. The benefit is that you don’t need to drive your “reference system” so loud to get the original sound of a driven amp - you get that set up in your modeller. So, you can manage the on-stage volume a little better. Further, at the end of the day, protecting your ears is actually the most important.
Whenever I do weddings nowadays it's pretty much a silent stage. One of the bands i work with has a venue residency based on how quiet they are. Electronic drum kits are becoming more and more popular/necessary and either an oxbox or a Helix seem to be the only options. In pubs on the other hand, I still use a 30 watt head and a 1x12 and it sounds ace. A lot of times I don't even mic up the speaker. Not having a separate sound man means everyone is responsible for their own volumes. This can be both a blessing and a curse.
I remember back when I went to live gigs, it was the gear on the stage that enticed me to go there. No amps, I walk out. I don't even buy a beer. Even the women look fake.
Ive been lucky enough to play my Deluxe on vol 8-10. I learned from Pete Thorn when the sound guy asks you for guitar, turn down a lot then Live, match ur volume with the band and use the rest of the volume as a place to go and for solo volumes.
After decades of humping my marshall valve combos around i discovered that my cheap pa speakers along with a 50-50 prosound power amp, a decent Yamaha mixer and pedal board gave me and my Les Paul deluxes a great sound without having to hire heavy lifting companies to move fender twins,ac30s, and marshall combos around, yes those amps gave a good sound in the right venue BUT, they were only ONE sound.
I'm playing a Marshall JVM 410 with a Deflexx (to avoid the speaker beam) in front of my Bogner 2x12 cabinet. My amp can be too loud - for sure ... but in reality I never play too loud. The interaction between my mastervolume and presence- and resonance- controls is good. So I need no power soak to save the tone.. In the last years I watched too many guitar slingers playing over low - watt amps, which get lost in the mix- caused by the overcompression of their amps , used at its absolute volume limit. So I'm happy with my equipment choice.
Is the amp the next cigarette for artists? Like you can smoke on stage if its part of the artist statement?! I bring the pod go to gigs. Yet still bring two amps to run it through for stereo. I say my amps are modded(they arent) and the speakers are special and irs don't exist for it(bs) I do this honestly, to use more dsp in pod go. And blend two amp sounds. I bring 2 1x12 combos, so it's not so intimating So I make these places mic my amps even though I have a modeler😂 Fight. The. Power
Well. I HOPE amps don't sell anymore so that I can afford to buy a couple that I have always wanted. Pros and Cons related to smaller stage amps ... Better for your back, better for your hearing. If you have a drummer that fits in with a 22 watt amp, great. Most of my 40 years of weekend stage playing was through a 40 watt 1964 Super Reverb which I bought brand new. Still have it. But let me tell you ... If you want a crowd to get up and get on their dancing feet, hire a drummer that can destroy a bass drum and a snare head. But be prepared to carry in an SR or a Bandmaster at the least, and move some air. I would rather do that than depend on some guy mixing the sound that has never heard my band. But what do I know about today's groups? DO they still carry around their own PA system? Do they pay a live sound engineer who knows their material and is the most important person in their band? And those amps I would like to own, are a BF Deluxe Amp and an old type "A" brownface Concert. NOW we are talking sweet tones.
@17:18 - "Never seeing an amp being played". I went to see Muse at Ashton Gate Stadium (pre-covid) and I did notice a small amp on the stage. It wasn't mic'd up so I guess it was a bit of an in-joke - the PA speakers were huge. Great gig BTW.
good video man. you make some good points. i dont see myself playing with modulars. modulars are good but no where like the real thing, close but no cigar.
I have a Fender DeVille 2x12 and a Fender Super Sonic. I use a JHS power soak running into the preamp in / power amp out to control the volume. Almost everywhere we play I can get useable volumes with tone... Its the new music conditions setting the volumes too as well as being near residential areas. One place that had music for decades stopped because of complaints and most of those were towards the end of bands and I think it was the bands bringing in the new public address systems with wave technology as that causes the sound to stay nice and level but it throws the sound at that level way further than the old school systems did. That happened to me in my apartment when I bought a Fender Mustang digital amp and I had a pitchfork uprising on my hands although the volume was much lower that when I ran through my 22watt Fender Deluxe .... I am glad I am old and won't have to put up with the new trends for much longer.... People in their late 30's to their 80's love our band as we keep hearing that we are the best band they've heard in our area in decades.... I may eventually try one of the new Fender digital amps made to be like the Twin Reverb and I think a Princeton...
I always give the sound person my max volume. I roll down the volume on my guitar and roll up for solos when we start our set. But has the night progresses, I start to edge my volume up slightly. But yeah it's a battle for a guitarist in modern times using tube amps. But you have to control your volume. Not many people at a bar or any live venue want to hear a screaming guitar all night. Rolling up and down on the guitar volume is a great way to control it.
I love a huge guitar sound. Ramones, Sex Pistols, Jesus and Mary Chain, etc. Not difficult to achieve. Don’t need loud stage volume. A nice professional sound system helps a great deal.
My current band runs ampless. I use a Boss ME90, our other guitar uses a line 6 modeler, and the bassist had a modeler as well. We all got some good IRs and spent the money we would have used on amps on better guitars. The band runs thru our own PA and we control the mix with an Ipad. Keep it simple.
@@kencubala9560 I got one for that reason. I find the ME90 is way easier to adjust sound live on the fly then my previous touchscreen modeler. The default amps arent too bad, but you can also load IRs which is way better. Sound quality wise its also great. I own a Marshall DSL 20. But I dont use it for gigs. I did for a few months until I got the ME90 dialed in really close to the amp. My bandmates could not tell the difference. Thats when I went ampless.
@@matttactics8275 Thank you for the response and descriptions. Glad you are enjoying your setup. Have been using an old line 6 flextone II which really sounds and feels good, but would like to use outboard effects instead of all the multifunction switches and knobs on the amp.
If you control your own mix OR you are playing in a professional venue with actual sound engineers mixing your FOH, then I can see playing without amps, although I’ve never done it. But the reason that those Pedal Show guys are giving the advice of not giving these “sound guys” your loudest sound isn’t so that you can play too loud and drive the customers away. It’s because for the most part, these “sound guys” in bars and clubs DON’T KNOW HOW TO MIX SOUND! That’s the truth of the matter. It’s a flat-out vote of no confidence, where you’re saying to yourself, “Even if I’m not standing in the best place to judge the FOH mix, I‘ll still probably do a better job with my own sound than relying on these “sound guys.’
Even though I've used a modeller exclusively since around 2008, I still use a power amp to a trad cab on stage, not only as a bit of personal monitoring, but also to get the cab's speakers 'talking' to the guitar's pickups is pretty important. I don't have it that loud, but just enough to get that natural feedback going. The seperate (direct FRFR) signal to the PA is totally controllable out front, so what I'm doing on stage is to get the right sound and still minimise excessive stage volume. As usual, especially in UK venues, they tend to have restrictions on level in place, so a bit of compromise is required on that.
If it's good enough for Joe Bonamassa - might be worth trying? thmn.to/thoprod/289653?offid=1&affid=3252
I know a couple local guys using them. Also know some guys who turn their amps, to the Wall, so sound comes out the back only. I used to use a twin Reverb in the 70's live, but we were not a loud band at all, we could not be having practiced in neighborhoods, and small rooms.
Like the other comment it did also make me think of the late, great Jeff Beck and his "trick" of pointing his Marshall 4x12's and his Pro Juniors backwards so as not to "kill" everyone else in the band and first few rows!
Myself I don't do many gigs these days (mostly acoustic anyway) but the last few amped up gigs I've used my Blonde Tone Master Deluxe Reverb with the "attenuator" aka "master volume" set according to the venue or setting. I've still never used it on full power yet but its done the job perfectly every time.
We are not joe Bonamassa. Unless our show is "I'm the guitarist look at me" is type of volumes is just ridiculous for any stock corporate gig
@@jp7963Philip sayce actually does this in clubs also. Cabs backwards or to the side. It's fairly common actually
@@swardmusic I'm not familiar with Philip or his music so I shall check him out. Thanks for the suggestion!
John's next headline: "Guitar amps are Back!"
"We need to talk about proper amps "
@ukguitarnoodle aww you bet me to it
Hahahahahahahha😂😂😂
I’m actually gonna steal that title for my next video now.😂😂
Right? LOL!!! That’s a load of wasted bandwidth!
We do need to stop being so meek and accept having to compromise and compromise and compromise and turn down, turn down, turn down. There is a reasonable compromise that can be made, but when electric guitarists are talking about “maybe we shouldn’t play through amps at all” then that should be a clear indication that we have compromised too far.
A guitar amplifier turned up loud enough that the guitarist can hear themselves onstage and play with some dynamic range is NOT too loud, I don’t give a damn what anyone says. If everyone is always telling you to turn down when you’re playing through a Deluxe Reverb on 4, the problem isn’t that your amp is turned up too loud, the problem is that you need to play better. That’s gonna ruffle some feathers, but it’s true. The answer is to play with more sensitivity and dynamics, not to turn the amp down, killing your dynamic range and actually just making everything sound worse.
The problem is that just because amplifiers CAN be turned down to nothing, the expectation is that they SHOULD. Sound engineers accept that a drumset is going to be, to a certain extent, naturally loud. So they mix the sound with that in mind. Guitarists simply aren’t given that same grace. They’re told to relinquish all the volume to the PA system, rather than fostering an environment where the sound from the PA and the sound from/on the stage are balanced and in harmony and everyone’s happy.
RE: “Well, good luck not getting any gigs/not getting paid”…hey man, I get that. You gotta put food on the table. And sometimes getting paid is clearly so much more important than getting that sweet ToAn.
But let’s be honest, is it even effing worth it any more? Bands are still getting paid what they were getting paid in 1990, and we can’t even play as loud as they could or have as much fun as they could. I hate to say it, but if making a living is your concern, you might want to consider getting a job at the post office or something. Slogging through a bunch of songs you don’t even like at uninspiring volumes for poverty money…worth it? Up to you, I guess.
Guitarists have compromised and accepted certain “realities” for a LONG time now. We’ve been VERY patient, but it’s time to start asserting certain other things that venue owners and sound workers need to accept:
1. A live band is not a jukebox. There isn’t a simple master volume knob you can turn up or down. They are playing live instruments and in order for them to hear themselves and one another well enough to play the show, there is a certain volume ceiling that is non-negotiable. If that volume floor is too loud for you, don’t hire a band. Simple as.
2. A live band consists of people. People who have bills to pay and who have worked very hard for many years to be able to perform music to a professional standard for your enjoyment. It is, in many senses, skilled labor. PAY THEM. It doesn’t need to be an exorbitant sum, but the same dollar amount as 30 years ago is obviously not enough any more. If you can’t afford to pay the band, don’t hire a band. Simple as.
Before anyone comes at me in the comments with some crap about “you’re inexperienced, once you get a few gigs under your belt you’ll understand how the real world works blah blah”, no. I’m 36 years old and have put THOUSANDS of gigs under my belt over the past 20 years. I’m well aware of how “the real world works” re: the sad trend towards silent stages, and I’m sick of it. Especially for how little we get paid, I’m done compromising. It’s time to fight back.
Agree with everything you wrote. And no, at that point it's not worth it anymore.
I am 100% in agreement with this entire comment.
@@johnballantyne3458 It's a long way to the top if you wanna rock n' roll........anyone else besides me remember "if it's too loud.....you're too old"?
I dunno man. I know I'm outside looking in. I'm a classical tuba player, and there's a lot of chameleon work playing with different groups. The second I say, "screw you I do this the way I want" is the day I never get called for the gig again. This is coming from a tuba player that has looked at bringing instruments other than tuba (like bass trombone, but then I realised that would be another $7000 expense for me) to a gig to better suit the environment. I have played guitar for 20 years, but I don't gig it, so I may be out of step here.
Amps will never be dead, never.
The 2020s is the Era of the Pansy..."tube amps are loud and heavy, so I'll pretend digital sounds just as good"...remember going to shows and feeling a natural high for the rest of the night from the sound waves beating on you for a few hours?
@@jasondorsey7110 totally 💯
@@jasondorsey7110 I got rid of my valve amps as they weighed 60lb plus apart from the tiny Electar I wish I'd kept. But back then, 5W was considered insufficient to gig with. Had I kept the Electar I'd have got it modified to add a loop to add reverb, though, somehow. And swap out the tiny speaker.
@@jasondorsey7110 there's something to be said for the power you feel when it's loud and the apparent interaction between the field of sound around you and the strings, which seem to come alive. I know it's subjective, but if it's quiet the strings feel stiffer. From a sound engineer's perspective, I can see the benefit of a quiet stage, though. And for the hearing of anyone on stage unless everyone wears earplugs.
I have an IEM system I've never used as I worry that I might get screaming feedback from a microphone fed directly into my brain, although with the more common use of feedback suppressors and quiet stages that's now relatively uncommon. It used to be every gig when the singer carelessly pointed a microphone at a monitor while the drummer was making some sort of random adjustment to the kit.
I remember when it was about tone , not gimmicks and gizmos.. so pathetic.
I bet this dude eats vegetarian hamburgers too,
Unsubscribed.....
No. The music industry is dying, if not dead. This amp issue is simply a side effect of a much larger problem.
Yup, I see loads of great bands that dont have and will never get a deal... 30 years ago they'd have gotten deals and publicity.
Drummer weighing in -- there's no reason that a drummer shouldn't also be prepared for various volume situations like a guitarist. At the very least, plenty of sound deadening gels should always be on hand. If you're serious, have multiple drumsets and cymbal set ups for various volume requirements. My "quiet" acoustic set up included cheap Sabian B8 cymbals. They weren't the coolest looking piece of gear, but I could fully open them up rather than guys with nice cymbals that could barely hit them hard enough to get a full sound and keep quiet. Also, electronic drums exist.
We did a filming session earlier in the year where the drummer had some of those quiet like stunt cymbals that actually sounded pretty good (relatively) and might be useful for those dreaded limiter gigs?
And on the eKit thing - we had one venue this year where it was line array and eKit (mandatory) - it actually wasn't as bad as I was expecting...
Drummers can use those light balsa sticks too for less volume
@@pardeeplace4480 Ha! Typical guitarist solution. Might as well get a cajon.
With all the plugins available for drummers, Ekit should be in their arsenal depends on the venue
There are a few venues in town that really like one of my bands mostly because our drummer has an e-kit.
Amps are dead. I agree completely. Send me those old Fender boat anchors so you don't have to store them.
Deluxe reverb combos used to be home practice amps.. lol
Lol!!! Neighbor love it
What homes are these people living in?
These amps still sound great at lower volumes… unless you’re in an apartment then it doesn’t matter anyways. Plus attenuators work wonders
Still is 😂
back when houses were affordable for the average household. the good ol' times before the leading generation screwed the economy
I think that there is a special relationship and sound between a real guitar amp and acoustic drums on stage that just can’t be beat. Especially with loud drumming. But also with a light and dynamic drummer. I always base my sound and volume on the drums first and then the full band mix. Cymbals and guitar amp blend is important I believe.
Well. But it might be tiring for those who play keys, flute, saxophone, violin etc. Modern quiet stage is superior for a reason.
@@lalnuntluangachhakchhuak5767For some things maybe but not for balls out authentic Rock, Blues, Fusion, Gospel or Metal.
Amps are not dead - they are like vinyl. Long live analog sound.
A good time to point out that almost all vinyl being made these days is from a digital source.
And they sound better than they ever did 😂😂😂 @@trev3971
@@JohnWiku I'd argue with that. A lot of WEA catalog stuff from the '70s-80s has been reissued in the past ten years and you'd be hard pressed to find any new masters that sound better than the originals. OTOH, all of the stereo Beatles stuff they've done since '09 sounds great. It's a case-by-case basis.
So it's for obnoxious corksniffers? Reality most of these guys complaining about amps can't play for shit and have no ear. Rhett Shull gear head types.
@@trev3971Most of the vinyl 'out there' in circulation was probably made pre-1990.
I can’t even imagine having to put up with all this bs. At this point, you should just hire a DJ.
This is why we've moved to 100% digital with digital drums and In Ear Monitors. We play weddings, wineries, breweries, and private parties. We can adjust our sound to any level needed for the venue. We even needed to play inside a host's living room when it rained at their private party. With the IEMs, I can play as loud as I find comfortable. It's not as fun a playing with an amp but we are getting to play and the venues like us because we aren't driving away their customers.
That is the DREAM setup. I'm in a band with four dinosaurs 🙁
@@MotownGuitarJoe Dinosaurs tend to go instinct.
@@MotownGuitarJoeYou are in a band of real man
@@W1LLi4m_… Not before they crush them some Millennials and GenZ under the footprint of their giant Marshalls 😮
@@MotownGuitarJoe Our band leader is very progressive and was still on the fence. Our drummer and other guitar player wanted no part of it. But, we'd had several gigs where our stage volume made a mess and everyone (except me who was already using IEMs) struggled with the gig. I was the only one on IEMs and the others tried them and were sold. They were kicking themselves about why we waited so long. The drummer was using a cheap digital kit in our rehearsal space but after months of seeing that they just worked better bought a nice digital kit and he's in love.
Been a pro muso for 50 years. Things change and you adapt and move on. Gone from bands with a Marshall 100w top and 2 4x12's in a tiny pub to Pod pedal and Bose L1 and everything in between. You will find a workaround that fits you.
Anyone that wants to play loud should stay in their bedroom and save themselves and others from their talent.
Talent will always win through!
Its normally the drummers fault. They start off quiet, but by the second set, they've had a couple more beers and start knocking the sh1t out of everything.
Don’t blame the drummers! We are drummers after all 😜
What do you call people who hang out with musicians?
I will never stop using my tube amps. There is just something awesome about plugging straight into a great tube amp.
Old man here.... Im not giving up my tube amps. A cranked amp is what inspired me to strat playing guitar in the 1sr place. Its not practical...but should music be practical?
If you're doing it as a job, yes. We all love a cranked amp, but do you love it enough to get fired over it?
@@trev3971 That's absurd, Like hiring a roofer to fix your roof but then complain about the sound of a hammer. I wouldn't want the job!!
@@totalbullion5882 I guess you won't be working as a musician in the real world, then. Have fun roofing!
@@trev3971 what kind of work,exactly? If I understand the room, I'm getting the impression that amps are still relevant as people still use amps on jobs,esp summer festival throw-and-go type situations.
@@PhilthyCasual There are plenty of working bar and function bands that use amps. But in any situation where volume needs to be heavily controlled, those gigs are going to bands that can adapt their stage volume to be as low as asked. If you're playing in one of those bands, you need to have a silent stage solution or they'll find someone who does.
Excellent points John. I would only add that we should also consider protecting our hearing. Pointing a guitar amp directly at your head is going to put a lot of harmful high-end right at your ears. Another point might be to try to play more musically, to think about the overall band sound and how each member is contributing to dynamics, the groove, harmonic complexity, etc. I watched Trapp, Bukovac's show last night. They had a drummer, lots of amps on the stage and a Hammond and Leslie. I don't know how loud it was in the room (I bought the livestream), but it didn't feel loud and they played with a lot of dynamics.
Hence why I use a screen
@@jimamsden high end is more annoying when loud, but does not really destroy your hearing more than low end or even sub. On the contrary probably.
The best sounding show I've ever heard was Chon when they played at Webster Hall in NYC during their "Grow" tour. Mario had his Vox Ac30 and Eric was on a Fender Supersonic 22.
Remove the fact that these two defined a generation of new guitarists (niche and albeit short lived), their amps were extensions of their guitars. Nothing against modelers or digital rigs as I use them now but there is some truth to Amps being musical instruments in their own right.
I saw them in Orlando 2020 and both guitarists where using Matchless Spitfire combos. Beautiful!
As a veteran of the functions scene, the reality is....if you don't comply with the venue's rules,you won't get another booking. I mothballed my twin and bought a Blackstar 50r and mic'd.
I have noticed guitars being so low in the mix, it's basically drums, bass and singer.
I still think everyone should play at the level of the vocalist with a bit of cut through for solos( although I'm our rhythm guitarist).You are there for the paying customers, anything too loud is a bad thing.
I'm so glad I'm retired. Volume is the magic of electric guitar, if dynamics are used. I'd rather played all acoustic than to have to worry about what modern players deal with as far as volume.
the gigs in question are not as much fun. Playing in a legit live venue means one can use either an amp OR a digital rig.
Vocals are King. In a trio, the drums/snare do set a standard and guitar must sit in a pocket until the solo,when guitar must be at the volume of the vocal for a period, then guitar goes back in the pocket. This also applies to bigger bands,with keys and other instruments. Big bassy,fat guitar sounds are not good here.
I think Mick and Dan, though they try, do not really understand that they are in a different situation than many guitarists. The first thing I noticed watching their episode was that you cannot run a DR at 3 or 4 most places these days without a sound a battle. And honestly, I just want to play not battle, trick, practice diplomacy just so I can have an amp on stage. I finally gave in and got a POD Express. It’s great. It fits my budget and does what I need.
Exactly. I watched their video and I enjoy their opinions, but I didn't really think any man who owns a room full of pedals and guitars has great credibility when talking about overcoming 'option paralysis' :) Their situation is very fortunate, and it might also be more common in places like the US, where more housing is detached and has more floor space in general. But if you're living in a typical UK space, and playing in places where the guitar isn't always the most important thing, then volume really is a concern. Whether its a greater concern to you than tone is a personal call!
@@ianwillo yeah. I live in Tokyo. So... I can't do what they do. Also, I bear no grudge but, having a stock of all types of pedals, guitars and amps on hand to use for various situations is a far cry from what most of us can do. I don't have a budget for more than an amp, guitar and a couple of reasonably priced pedals.
@@GraniteSoundtrack Tokyo is a great city! But yes, pretty restrictive on space from what I remember. Is there much of a live music, independent scene there?
@@ianwillo there's live houses for various genres. Not really a pub live scene thing. Pretty pro usually too. There's a lot of tours that go through though. All the big and medium tours come through.
Wedding / corporate band player here. I go fully direct with quad cortex, and it sounds good enough through the in ears. However - I have found on multiple occasions when stepping off stage into the crowd (on wireless packs) that I take an in ear out and the sound person has me barely audible.
Giving the sound person full control only works if their aesthetic actually suits the situation.
There’s no point me playing a nice Nile Roger’s part if no one can hear it!
I’d love to stick an amp on stage but with the percentage of venues now having harsh sound restrictions it just isn’t a feasible option as I would be told to turn it down / off anyway.
I've had a similar situation - I came in with a solo for Johnny B Goode, with ears out, realised there was no guitar out front....Classic
@@johnnathancordy that really is a classic - taking a solo and realising in the middle of it that the audience haven’t actually noticed!
I try to play ball and be a team player stage volume wise - and when even your rhythm playing is not being put adequately out of FOH it makes me question the point of doing the gig at all! Oh to be a sax player where at least the instrument is shiny (and v loud)✨
@@johnnathancordylol
I luckily play a lot with bands that haven’t gone all iems and I bring a Super for the big catering halls or other kinds of big rooms and a Deluxe for the barns and restaurants. When I started bringing the Super I got so many side-eye looks lol, but once people heard it and how perfect it mixes it’s only been satisfaction and compliments, those amps really were designed to sound great in these very types of bands and scenarios. I believe the tide will turn. It’s our responsibility obviously to bring the right amp for the room (and drummer 😵💫), but the mindset should shift from putting a mic on the amp so that the guitarist will turn it down, and towards a concept that you mic the amp for reinforcement only, to give a little more when needed to fill out the mains mix or to send to monitors other side of big stage.
I played digital for 17 years and bought a tube amp 3 years ago. I do not play live, i enjoy far more having the quality and the presence only a tube amp has.
I would be tempted to agree with the concept… except that DJs and bands today are routinely far louder than the wedding/clubdate bands I worked with back in the 1980s. I am all for the customer dictating volume level; I am NOT for the sound engineer doing the same. But far too many sound engineers today demand the band play quietly - then they turn up FOH to earbleed level.
And once that occurs, the IEMs also have to be cranked. If you think loud amps and stage monitors damaged your hearing, wait til a few years of cranked IEMs have done their damage. Ambient loud is one thing; direct-injected loud is something else entirely.
In Texas I haven’t run into any volume issues gigging my Deluxe Reverb with the volume set b/t 4.5 - 6.5 depending on the venue and almost always mic’d. These are night clubs, bars, and multi art venues.
From playing live and touring for 50yrs there is a golden rule that has ALWAYS applied: A BAND IS ALWAYS AS LOUD AS IT'S DRUMMER...every musician wants to be heard... Once in ears became prevalent the stage "FUN" ended...used to be 10-20 people in the wings on both sides of the stage creating a great party atmosphere...then all of a sudden all they could hear was the drums...goodbye, they all left...🤷♂
I'm 70 years old. I've been playing guitar in bands since 1967. I've played thru everything from 100W Marshall and Ampeg amps (in the '60s and '70s) to a tweed Princeton (5W, 8" spkr) with a mic in front of it. There's a reason they started putting master volume knobs on guitar amps about 50 years ago! Nowadays I play thru little combo amps with 5 or 10 watts and an 8 or 10 inch speaker. I have an original (not a re--issue) '65 Deluxe (no reverb), and to my ears now (not always in the past) that amp is LOUD.
I like to hear what I'm doing, but I don't like for my ears to be ringing when I go to bed.
And I do NOT play wedding gigs!
Eugh, I was interested at first but trying to get through all this I just realized...everyone now just massively overthinks absolutely everything and it's driving all of us totally nuts and gradually sapping all of the life and soul from society. In it's place we just get completely corporatized superficiality and total oversaturation of everything. Since when did any of this suddenly become a "problem"? People have used amps for every kind of gig for decades and had a great time...suddenly now we have abundant software and endless digital bollox, it's now a problem? Why? You have a master volume...turn it down a bit and crack on having a blast in life. Or just use some digital setup if that's what you have to or is what you prefer...but why are we making it a "problem"? Why the heated debate as if to divide everyone into a purely tribal one or the other mindset? Amps are suddenly either totally pointless or you're some sort of grandpa who doesn't "get it"? No, amps are great, digital can also be great. They're tools that ARE different, especially live, and each have their own merits. Trying to endlessly overanalyse absolutely every last detail of everything down to precisely what dB a wedding function needs to have the band at is justmental.
I've just played a local festival with a trio for the first time in more years than I care to remember, doing vocals and guitar - rhythm with a few lead lines for luck - and going for an "edge of breakup tone". Thanks to the really helpful sound-tech, I got the best on-stage sound I've ever been lucky enough to work with (light years better than anything I remember back in the '70s!), and people from the audience came up afterwards to praise the guitar sound. What was I using?... I've got a busted foot, so to travel light, I'd left my amp at home and I just took a NUX MG-30. I love playing through a valve amp - I just feel an extra level of "connection", for want of a better term - but I was shocked by how good the the MG-30 sounded and "felt".
I'm 70. Still play 4 times a week. Done 7000 gigs in my lifetime. I always use tube amps, tried all the modelers. Modelers are OK for people who do small gigs, but they do not sound or more importantly, react like tube amps, and when you're touring, or big clubs, amps are king. If I do a small gig, I use a PR, if it's bigger, my DR or silverface bassman. And I do not up the amp super loud, I cover it, and if I need it loud, I turn up my stage monitor. The key is to cover it, usually with a v shaped sound absorber of some sort, you can make your own.
I am a gigging guitarist and play 99% of jobs with a real tube amp. I know how to use it though. Adjust your tone and the volume level to the venue and band and when it sits in the mix right, no one will complain. I do silent stage gigs too, but an amp is always better - sounds better, feels better, sits better in the mix. Just learn to use it!
The whole amp turned to face the wall is much cheaper than most people think 😊
Life became soooo sweet when our drummer switched to an electronic kit! Most folks can't tell the difference, as it's a full size kick and toms. As a guitarist/vocalist and using traditional pedals through an amp modeller (Two Notes Opus) I can now hear myself, and we can adapt our volume to almost any space. Biggest bonus of all - sound checks take 15 minutes - not the 45 mins to an hour we took before, mostly sorting the drums out....AND...my ears don't ring for days after each gig! Now if only we could persuade the bassist......
Yeah I thought that comment from Mick was a bit odd imo (I say that respectively) as some gig have to be silent stages. I’m currently doing the show We Will Rock You. I’m literally playing solos in every tune. There are 40 headset microphones on stage, so a modeller is the only option. Literally. So I’m using an FM3 & pedals. It sounds killer. Just reality if you want to do theatre show gigs. I love playing loud but sometimes you just can’t
I agree. I play pit band gigs a lot, use a Helix floor, and we’re all on headphones. Sometimes the drums are acoustic, but sometimes they’re a electronic kit. It honestly sounds better than when I used to use amp / pedals, even though it was an amp with excellent master volume (Fuchs ODS).
Yeah this is so true, I would say 95% of all theatre gigs are direct and even on some function gigs I’ve been asked to not bring an amp. I’m not sure if it’s sometimes because of negative stereotype of guitarists being ‘too loud’ or wanting more control over sound. I totally agree with John in this video that the reality is people have to adapt to work as a guitarist. Personally, I would much prefer to go direct and have a pay cheque than forcibly play a loud amp for the sake of being a ‘guitarist’ whatever that means.
As well the thing that no-one seems to mention is that going direct means a more consistent sound, you can actually hear what you sound like through IEMs and this can inform your practice as a guitarist, meaning better technique and rehearsed parts. It’s part and parcel now of being a working guitarist that you have to adapt too.
When your entire career is built around saying the only acceptable way to play guitar is through machines that only sound good at high volumes, you are sort of stuck fighting everyone all the time to demand the right to play at high volumes.
@@Newnodrogbob yeah that’s a relevant point for sure
From what I can tell having seen a number of West End shows with real bands no guitarist was using an amp nowadays.
Yep I went digital as well. I use my Boss Gt1000 Core for Sunday worship. My worship leader was impressed on how good it sounded through the FOH. Then at home, I play the Boss into frfr. What is nice, even at low volumes your tone still sounds consistent.
Here's couple of tips for bands that don't use IEM's and only use wedges and real amps/cabs on stage. Set the overall volume to acoustic drums so that guitars and bass are loud enough to be heard over drums. That's about it, no need to be louder than that. Get a good balance between drums, guitars, bass, vocals etc. BEFORE you even go on the stage. Set the cabs to side of the stage, pointing to the band, so they act as monitors for guitars and then there's no need to put them on the wedges so much. That way you can have lead/backing vocals much louder on monitors. Also use supercardioid mics for vocals so there's no bleed from guitars and drums. I've never had any problems and not even once had to turn my amp down to almost zero by sound guys. I use a 100w/50w tube amp with GOOD master volume and depending on the size of the venue and the stage I bring either 4x12 or 2x12 cab. MOST of the time 2x12 is way to go. If I do small duo gig I bring my 20w 1x10 combo. I nowadays use Bluguitar blubox so my FOH sound comes from that, which sounds absolutely killer, and I could totally go direct/silent stage with this rig, but In my opinion bands sound better when you have real cabs on stage versus everything going direct. Guitars especially get buried in the mix very easily and overall sound of the band is muddy. Now on a huge festival stage that doesn't matter cause you won't be hearing the cab anyway, but smaller clubs. Totally different story. Even more when the PA is shit. So it's all about balance and and drummers knowing how to play to a room. Now if you 're playing with a click track/backing tracks forget everything I said and go direct.
There is soundcheck volume...and then there is 1st set volume. Rarely are they the same,in my experience.
@@PhilthyCasual Sure! Seen it many times. But you shouldn't need to adjust amps. Soundguy can do it for you and put you more on monitors. :)
@@nikoratysgr " shouldn't", ok
This is a cold, hard, fact. During sound check, a timid drummer is going to affect the mix. They need to play at the highest “normal” gig volume during sound check.
I hate having to constantly adjust my amp volume because the drummer is now teeing off. Acoustic drums and cymbal frequencies are the template for everything else. That being said, guitarists can help their place in the mix by adding in some midrange. I’m not talking quacky midrange, but too much scoop won’t cut through and you’ll have all kinds of frequency cancellation. Each instrument/player needs to understand how to fit their sonic profile into the mix. Unfortunately, not knowing this leads to just turning up, which exacerbates the problem.
@@historyrepeated4239 So true!
I still go to gigs regularly where amps are on stage. It's not dying in any way. Sure, you can't bring a plexi and wack it on 10, but a deluxe reverb, or anything that style and wattage on volume 3 sounds glorious anyway ... perfectly loud enough to cut through but not too loud to blow faces off.
We don't use traditional amps in the band I'm in. Both myself (bass) and the guitarist swapped to FRFR speakers and modelling pedalboards. Load-ins and -outs are quick and efficient, with no bad backs or whacked shins from shifting heavy amps, and the stage mix is always spot-on.
We played the Busfest VW festival over the weekend and didn't even bother taking our speakers (both Headrush). The sound was excellent and the load-out was a matter of maybe two minutes for me and the guitarist. It's definitely the way forward.
I think it may be that it's guitars that are almost dead, that is except for guitar players who play in their bedrooms, and maybe 's that's good thing. In fact music as we used to know it is mostly dead for most people. They'd much rather play with their phones. In fact it might actually be that life as we used to know it is dead having been displaced by phones. But if you're a guitarist who likes to play at home, amps can be very cool. Deluxe Reverbs are definitely still cool.
I may have mistaken the TPS point mentioned here, but I thought it was to give the sounds at sound check in such an order that you don't get told to turn down because of perceived loudness in stead of actual loudness.
No amps are not dead. Quite the contrary. I prefer the amp.
If I go to a live gig and nobody is playing into a real amp, I'll walk out. Fake sound = fake beer at the bar. Might as well have inflatable women to dance with be bored to death.
A PR, covered with a baffle of some sort, turned to about 4 with pedals, and your own monitor for your guitar. That's the way to go. I can't tell hiw many guitarists that have seen my setup are emulating it.
The silent stage is a reality for many gigging musicians in the church, function bands, and large-scale pop gigs. My gigging life is elsewhere, playing jazz clubs in New York and frequently touring with an artist who likes to have energy and vibration on stage: live drums, Hammond organ, electric bass, electric guitar (Deluxe Reverb on 4). We still use wedges, not in-ear monitors.
It is difficult for me to get excited about playing music without an amplifier. As good as the technology is these days, it comes down to FEEL for me. Like, if we collectively decided: “We are not using traditional guitars anymore. We are going to use MIDI controllers, with a library of predictably fabulous tones.” That would be a marvel, embraced by many players - but I’d rather stay home.
I don’t mean to rain on anyone’s parade here. This is just my perspective. Do what you love, and adapt to modern-day working realities. There’s so many ways to embrace the guitar!
Deluxe Reverb IS the BEST amp. Jonathan. It's the GOAT, there's no way around, man. Stop beating around the bush.
Have the Faux one from fender, but I had to get the real one again. Side by side the 65 reissue has IT
Def played lots of shows in smaller bars and pubs where the only thing going through the pa were vox and maybe a tiny bit of kick drum, and no minitors. The stage volume WAS the volume of the band. If the drummer had gone full tilt, he would have been way too loud. You would just have your buddy stand in the crowd while you jammed and gave you the thumbs up or down to turn your amp up or down to macth the drummers volume lol
I don’t relate to this vs. that. I use whatever the best tool for the job is. That could be a Fender Twin with a Les Paul or a Quad Cortex with an Ibanez AZ2022. I’ve used Kemper, Princeton, H5, Boss Core, Quilter Toneblock, Mesa Lonestar, Fractal AX8, ToneX, Quilter phantom block, Rivera Chubster 40, Blues Jr…I think about the venue, band, genre, instrument, and cartage, then use the rig that suits the situation. For IEM gigs it’s modelers all day. Otherwise it’s an amp of various sizes. It’s really that simple for me: what’s the monitoring situation?
With many of the newer amps offering DO and power attenuation, I'm actually seeing more amps on stage. After 50+ years playing, always with an amp behind me, and now working with my church's praise team, I'm most comfortable with that amp close at hand. That allows me to determine my sound rather than someone else.
Right? Not all sound techs know what to do,lolz. I do not care to depend on technical support (using a QC) when I can bring an amp and have more control over my sound.
Watching Dan & Mick was the first time in a while that made me think about an amp set up again because that rig seems genuinely awesome. But then you think about the helix/fractal etc and realise you basically have the Pete Cornish switching system that you always wanted, which was completely unobtainable not so long ago. I don’t think that extra 5% you get from an amp is worth ruining your back and hearing for, and the audience don’t give a rats what you use.
I'd love to play at any volume I wish, but that's not reality in most clubs. Mick and Dan will have tinnitus very soon I'm afraid. We've had to switch to smaller amps and getting crunch from pedals where necessary. It's not necessarily preferred, but we can hear each other and the sound man and audience is happy. Even in the studio, if you play live together, you can't always isolate when you really need to hear each other and respond in kind. Your milage may vary.
You can use a plexiglass perspex screen around the drums. Cuts down volume and still allows them to play at normal power. Most of the bars in Nashville use baffles around the guitar amps.
It’s sad times now😢 I think lots of guitarists miss the Marshall stack with 2x4x4 at weddings 😢😅
The reality is amps have to be turned down to the point of not being heard by the guitar player so why even bring it? Kemper, QC,Helix, etc are the real life solution
You can bring an amp, use an attenuator or dummy load and speaker sim or an isolation box with a microphone in if you don't want to use a simulator.
To tame a 60W all tube head for recording I actually used an old 1970s 3-way hi-fi speaker with good power handling and wired the woofer directly out, bypassing the cross-over. The sound was very similar to a conventional guitar cabinet but the sensitivity was about 10dB less. That turned it into effectively a 6W amp. That's still surprisingly loud, though.
Amps with good master volumes are the solution for me
@@wbertie2604that's why you bring a Kemper or any of these modellers to save yourself the headache of setting all these extra stuff. As for recording, of course- real tangible amp and speakers will always be the best option where lugging and logistics aren't that much relevant.
Amps need to be turned down?? are you mad??🤣
@@davegale9116 they definitely do. It's just a simple fact that most venues demand lower volumes these days
Gigging with a Princeton reverb used to be unthinkable. Now it's about the right size of amp.
More amp companies need to incorporate attenuators in their amplifiers (ie Hughes & Kettner) if they want to remain popular. I use Rivera amps, but use an 18 watt H&K tubemeister for occasional small gigs and can take it down to 5 watts if need be for rehearsals and it is still more than loud enough to cope. Spending anything between £400 to £800 on a "name" attenuator (just to drop the dbs)does NOT make good economic sense to me as I'm no longer a pro. So it would be a big plus for those of us who still love our valves, if amp makers could take a leaf out of H&Ks book. There is way too much compromise going on and there needs to be less of it, you can still have a great tone without it being a health risk. "Silent stage" just does nothing for me at all, a soulless and sterile environment when it comes to playing live . . .totally weird ! .
I live on the east coast of America and my band has gone through some major changes over the last couple years. We were a 5 piece band with 3 guitar players. The loud guy got kicked out. But the big thing for us was the drummer sets the volume. Knowing this we have always been a loud rock band. Last year we decided to make the conscious decision to get direct in tones and the drummer is now using an electric drum kit. I use a Boss Katana 100 MKII now for over a year vs my Vox ac30 that couldn’t get to the right volume to sound right. Now our band gets nearly double the gigs we were getting because we understand we are just background noise to one’s night out. We’re a cover band and we get that people still wanna hear the band, but they also wanna hear their conversation to the person next to them. So we are all direct in and are now a three piece. Some places I turn the speaker off completely and only do direct in.
One prominent point from the TPS video is being glossed over. This is not a battle we're going to win overnight; It's the start of turning the tide ... with reasonable solutions like in TPS. There is no question many soundmen/venues will push-back on on-stage amps. We have to push back and be willing to walk away. (Obviously, if you have to work to put food on the table your hands are more tied. And if you prefer in-ears/modelers/silent stages that's fine too). Maybe we win; Maybe we lose. But the TPS video is trying to rally the troops.
Amps will never be dead.
I've done some time running front of house sound for various set ups as well as doing a fair bit of gigging with both live amps and modellers and I'mma just say this debate is usually fueled more by ignorance than anything else.
I can absolutely mix with/around amps, but a lot of the "too loud" conversation comes from a loudness arms race. Unless you have a slant cab then your amp is pointed at your ankles and you don't hear it as well as others in the room, so now lets say there's 2 guitarists who both have amps who keep turning themselves up because "I can't hear myself", soon it turns into noisy unmixable slop.
Another source of awful loudness issues is the monitor wedge. I've played with someone who had a 100w marshall with a slant cab and STILL asked for his amp in his own wedge. Without even getting into the phasing you're causing yourself, if you have all that AND you're cranking everyone else in the wedge AND you keep asking for more vocals the entire thing is going to just turn into a feedback mess. Rule of thumb, never put your own amp or any drums in the monitor, and put effort into trying to have as quiet of wedge mix as possible. you actually hear better at lower SPLs anyway so you'll play better AND have more separation between instruments if you get comfortable at lower volumes on stage.
gear guidelines:
if you're playing a house show or small bar then you want a proper amp but keep the wattage under control. Use an amp stand to help you hear yourself better.
If you're playing a larger bar or a club with decent wedges then you can either go with amps or modellers but plan on also having either a hybrid set up or an FRFR cab if you're going modeller.
If you're playing a "pro" gig (large tours, churches, house bands, weddings) then you should have both solutions available and discuss with the venue which is better for a given gig.
Any time you're using IEMs then modellers are better.
Also remember that most sound engineers are over worked and under paid, if you put a little effort into making their job easier that leaves more time for them to focus on making you sound good. So even if they're being a goober, just try and work together because anyone who works that job is passionate about musing and making bands sound good.
I have a hybrid approach. I use a Friedman IR-X, going into an OX Stomp to go direct to FOH, but I also have a separate non cab-simulated line going into my Powerstage 700 and V30 loaded 112 cab for stage volume. And I'm a full-time professional performing and recording session guitarist.
Players need to "feel " and when plugged into just a board somethings get lost flat and dull sometimes
And when you plug into a loud amp, your punters get pissed off. The punters are more important than the players.
@@officialWWM??? Are you talking about rugby? Regarding bands, no player=no live music.
@@officialWWM you spelled "puxxies" wrong ;)
@@toddman26 here in Australia, the paying audience are called punters. Why? I have no idea 😂
@@officialWWM Thanks for the clarification!!! And, I just learned something new.😀
modelers sound dead
Watched that episode. Agree on DR for tone. Love my 76 but it stays home. Got a TMDR and use it live. Feed the house with the IR and attenuate the output per the situation or go silent. Here in Nash, the Princeton has been taking over for some time and even those 12 watts are too much for some gigs. Mike Campbell used 2 Princetons to tour the world. I can see even 5 watt amps getting more popular for live work.
I've been a shield guy for about 5 years. Can't leave home without it. Almost more so for my own foldback on stage.
My ears are getting older. They're 73 now and they give me pain signals when the volumes are too loud. I hate to admit it, but 92 db hurts. I prefer to play with amps, so I'll turn them down.
I bought a Boss TAE and now my little 20w Marshall goes from 0 to 50. Screw 11, 50 is where it's at. It's such a different beast to my Helix, it's a whole quantum leap better to my ears, it feels so much better 'under the fingers'. I can be quiet as a mouse or do structural damage to the local watering hole. I can get all my sounds sorted at home and I don't have to worry about how turning up and down change the break up point. It's so transformational I'm quite emotional.
Appreciate the reality check. Love TPS but those guys get to play in a different venue-universe than most local working guitarists I know. Play amps loud locally you starve.
Can do a lot with a champ and a mic. Makes the sound guy happy and still breaks up like a real amp.
I have been playing over 40 years, and I am a tube amp guy...and I have NEVER bought an amp new. Part of the reason is that on the used market, you can get great amps that have barely been played or need very little work for cheap. An amp at the size that it is becomes a boat anchor to someone who might be moving around. If a person is looking to not play like they once did and go to a modeler at home situation, then the amp is generally first to go. There were times in the past when I sold my amps but kept most my gear (before modelers) only to buy used amps later. Today I buy amps I don't need. My main amp is one I bought back in 1994 (30 years ago) and I still use it today as my main sound.
Just depends on the type of music. I play in a metal band and we still turn out relatively loud and never get much pushback from sound guys at all.
I have a Fender Princeton Reverb, a Kemper Stage Profiler (set up for wireless and IEM) and a 4U rack containing a Mesa Triaxis, Lexicon MPXG2 and 2020 power amp. The Kemper will NEVER replace the Triaxis for feel and dynamics even though I've found some of the profiles of other preamps I have sound better than the real thing. There's also the influence of feedback on sustain and note bloom. The PR runs with the volume on 9 but the master is around 3 just to catch some of that touch sensitivity at low volumes and it blooms wonderfully if an eq is tweaked for the resonance peaks of the amp. All of the onstage volumes in bands I've played in have been set by the volume of the drummer and, particularly, the impact of cymbals on other instruments. In fact, I even left a band once because the drummer wouldn't reign his volume in. This was even after it was proven in one rehearsal how tighter the band was as a result of everyone being able to hear each other better.
I only play at home. I use a Boss Katana headphone amp. Along with the footswitch, app and moises it's so much better than a practice amp (all I could resonably play at home).
I quite like a silent stage. The benefits in mix quality for the people in the crowd far outweighs the negligible differences in tone (again to the average listener) as long as you FEEL good playing your guitar, what does it actually matter what the amp is?
Dude, I love your playing. I'm stealing it.
Another great vid
I saw a band in a reasonably sized venue in Dublin, and they had both amps, both Fender deluxe amps I think, facing the wall.
Amp stand and hot plate attenuator for me - often with amp to one side pointing at me/cross-stage (fold back) with FOH handled by engineer. Biggest barrier to silent stage for me locally here in the US, is that in ear feeds aren’t always available and in ear mix functionality even more rare.
But then, I have been asked to turn down when playing an unamplified acoustic gig (with a dummy condenser mic)
I highly recommend a decent attenuator like the Tone King Ironman mini...I run it with my Deluxe Reverb. You can set the amp to 10 and attenuate the volume to even bedroom levels. To my ears and many others, it only effects tone at the highest levels of attenuation
If you want to be a working guitarist, you have to do what the people employing you say. Unless you just record music in a studio and sell it, that is. I gigged with a function band recently, and they had no silent stage equipment. It was probably the loudest gig I've ever played, apart from maybe outdoor gigs where an external company supplied a huge PA system. Certainly the loudest stage volume. Still got paid. Judging by the amount of equipment now available for silent stage guitarists, there's a market for it, and so there must be demand.
I think this situation also has to do with the fact that bands are being booked in places that are not traditional live venues. In my experience, those are the least fun places to play bc the band is treated like an inconvenience. The modelling guys can have all those gigs, I dont need the work or the weirdness,lolz.
It has become absolutely ridiculous that sound guys these days can't manage to work with guitarists and bassists using amps. If the drummer is on an acoustic kit the "silent stage" doesn't exist.
These days? It’s been an ongoing guitar players vs sound guys for years.
They do not mind drums. Perhaps if we face our amps toward the audience we get pushback. Maybe plexiglass
My take on it some sound guys are lazy. They don’t want deal with mixing in a loud guitar. It’s possible to do some just can’t be bothered.
The guitarist should not be bringing a loud amp to a gig in the first, expecting someone to fix all the issues with monitoring or micing it, rather than just using a modeller like anyone with a brain.
If I was you soundman I would send your in ear a good feed and make you non existent in the house since your a genius
Bought a Marshall last week. It's just great. That's my 5th valve amp. The Katana is great too. Sometimes I just do from my pod500.
I agree that the best is to have an amp on stage. I definitely think that amp sales is taking a knock due to modellers. I use modelling extensively but I recommend using your own “powered speaker” for your own reference and could give the traditional amp “feeling” and “feedback”. There are various options. The benefit is that you don’t need to drive your “reference system” so loud to get the original sound of a driven amp - you get that set up in your modeller. So, you can manage the on-stage volume a little better. Further, at the end of the day, protecting your ears is actually the most important.
Dr Jeffrey Thompson the sound therapist has done a CZcams live broadcast lecture on "Noise" and I believe mentions comfortable sound levels
Daaaaamn dude, that subtle feedback at 1:08 is MAGICAL
Whenever I do weddings nowadays it's pretty much a silent stage. One of the bands i work with has a venue residency based on how quiet they are. Electronic drum kits are becoming more and more popular/necessary and either an oxbox or a Helix seem to be the only options.
In pubs on the other hand, I still use a 30 watt head and a 1x12 and it sounds ace. A lot of times I don't even mic up the speaker. Not having a separate sound man means everyone is responsible for their own volumes. This can be both a blessing and a curse.
Silent stage usually means the worst sound is right in front of the act, can’t see how that’s a positive, worst sound for most interested listeners?
I remember back when I went to live gigs, it was the gear on the stage that enticed me to go there. No amps, I walk out. I don't even buy a beer. Even the women look fake.
We live in the darkest timeline
@@mattgilbert7347 the front rows in particular, he’ll we only recently got a reliable brown sound!
Ive been lucky enough to play my Deluxe on vol 8-10. I learned from Pete Thorn when the sound guy asks you for guitar, turn down a lot then Live, match ur volume with the band and use the rest of the volume as a place to go and for solo volumes.
After decades of humping my marshall valve combos around i discovered that my cheap pa speakers along with a 50-50 prosound power amp, a decent Yamaha mixer and pedal board gave me and my Les Paul deluxes a great sound without having to hire heavy lifting companies to move fender twins,ac30s, and marshall combos around, yes those amps gave a good sound in the right venue BUT, they were only ONE sound.
I'm playing a Marshall JVM 410 with a Deflexx (to avoid the speaker beam) in front of my Bogner 2x12 cabinet. My amp can be too loud - for sure ... but in reality I never play too loud. The interaction between my mastervolume and presence- and resonance- controls is good. So I need no power soak to save the tone..
In the last years I watched too many guitar slingers playing over low - watt amps, which get lost in the mix- caused by the overcompression of their amps , used at its absolute volume limit.
So I'm happy with my equipment choice.
Is the amp the next cigarette for artists?
Like you can smoke on stage if its part of the artist statement?!
I bring the pod go to gigs. Yet still bring two amps to run it through for stereo.
I say my amps are modded(they arent) and the speakers are special and irs don't exist for it(bs)
I do this honestly, to use more dsp in pod go. And blend two amp sounds. I bring 2 1x12 combos, so it's not so intimating
So I make these places mic my amps even though I have a modeler😂
Fight. The. Power
Well. I HOPE amps don't sell anymore so that I can afford to buy a couple that I have always wanted. Pros and Cons related to smaller stage amps ... Better for your back, better for your hearing. If you have a drummer that fits in with a 22 watt amp, great. Most of my 40 years of weekend stage playing was through a 40 watt 1964 Super Reverb which I bought brand new. Still have it. But let me tell you ... If you want a crowd to get up and get on their dancing feet, hire a drummer that can destroy a bass drum and a snare head. But be prepared to carry in an SR or a Bandmaster at the least, and move some air. I would rather do that than depend on some guy mixing the sound that has never heard my band. But what do I know about today's groups? DO they still carry around their own PA system? Do they pay a live sound engineer who knows their material and is the most important person in their band? And those amps I would like to own, are a BF Deluxe Amp and an old type "A" brownface Concert. NOW we are talking sweet tones.
@17:18 - "Never seeing an amp being played". I went to see Muse at Ashton Gate Stadium (pre-covid) and I did notice a small amp on the stage. It wasn't mic'd up so I guess it was a bit of an in-joke - the PA speakers were huge. Great gig BTW.
good video man. you make some good points. i dont see myself playing with modulars. modulars are good but no where like the real thing, close but no cigar.
I have a Fender DeVille 2x12 and a Fender Super Sonic. I use a JHS power soak running into the preamp in / power amp out to control the volume. Almost everywhere we play I can get useable volumes with tone... Its the new music conditions setting the volumes too as well as being near residential areas. One place that had music for decades stopped because of complaints and most of those were towards the end of bands and I think it was the bands bringing in the new public address systems with wave technology as that causes the sound to stay nice and level but it throws the sound at that level way further than the old school systems did. That happened to me in my apartment when I bought a Fender Mustang digital amp and I had a pitchfork uprising on my hands although the volume was much lower that when I ran through my 22watt Fender Deluxe .... I am glad I am old and won't have to put up with the new trends for much longer.... People in their late 30's to their 80's love our band as we keep hearing that we are the best band they've heard in our area in decades.... I may eventually try one of the new Fender digital amps made to be like the Twin Reverb and I think a Princeton...
Amps are not dead. This is the biggest load of shit I’ve heard all year.
I always give the sound person my max volume. I roll down the volume on my guitar and roll up for solos when we start our set. But has the night progresses, I start to edge my volume up slightly. But yeah it's a battle for a guitarist in modern times using tube amps. But you have to control your volume. Not many people at a bar or any live venue want to hear a screaming guitar all night. Rolling up and down on the guitar volume is a great way to control it.
I love a huge guitar sound. Ramones, Sex Pistols, Jesus and Mary Chain, etc. Not difficult to achieve. Don’t need loud stage volume. A nice professional sound system helps a great deal.
Wow, The tone you were getting with the deluxe and zen drive was the best I’ve ever heard.
You can use a small amp into a twonotes captor x or something..real feel no stage volume ..jsut a thought
I'll always want an amp and prefer an amp over a modeler - but have a modeler for those times when I simply can't use an amp
My current band runs ampless. I use a Boss ME90, our other guitar uses a line 6 modeler, and the bassist had a modeler as well. We all got some good IRs and spent the money we would have used on amps on better guitars. The band runs thru our own PA and we control the mix with an Ipad. Keep it simple.
How are you liking the ME90? Have been looking at that format due to my present distaste for programming through menus.
@@kencubala9560 I got one for that reason. I find the ME90 is way easier to adjust sound live on the fly then my previous touchscreen modeler. The default amps arent too bad, but you can also load IRs which is way better.
Sound quality wise its also great. I own a Marshall DSL 20. But I dont use it for gigs. I did for a few months until I got the ME90 dialed in really close to the amp. My bandmates could not tell the difference. Thats when I went ampless.
@@matttactics8275 Thank you for the response and descriptions. Glad you are enjoying your setup. Have been using an old line 6 flextone II which really sounds and feels good, but would like to use outboard effects instead of all the multifunction switches and knobs on the amp.
If you control your own mix OR you are playing in a professional venue with actual sound engineers mixing your FOH, then I can see playing without amps, although I’ve never done it. But the reason that those Pedal Show guys are giving the advice of not giving these “sound guys” your loudest sound isn’t so that you can play too loud and drive the customers away. It’s because for the most part, these “sound guys” in bars and clubs DON’T KNOW HOW TO MIX SOUND! That’s the truth of the matter. It’s a flat-out vote of no confidence, where you’re saying to yourself, “Even if I’m not standing in the best place to judge the FOH mix, I‘ll still probably do a better job with my own sound than relying on these “sound guys.’
@@nickkoutsoukis lmao, youre right. Since we run our own PA and mix I had never thought about that.
Even though I've used a modeller exclusively since around 2008, I still use a power amp to a trad cab on stage, not only as a bit of personal monitoring, but also to get the cab's speakers 'talking' to the guitar's pickups is pretty important. I don't have it that loud, but just enough to get that natural feedback going. The seperate (direct FRFR) signal to the PA is totally controllable out front, so what I'm doing on stage is to get the right sound and still minimise excessive stage volume. As usual, especially in UK venues, they tend to have restrictions on level in place, so a bit of compromise is required on that.