BMW N54 17T TURBOS HAVE FAILED! WHAT CAUSED IT?
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- čas přidán 2. 08. 2024
- BMW N54 17T TURBOS HAVE FAILED! WHAT CAUSED IT?
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I feel your pain JB! Another very informative video though guys awesome!!
I’m building my 07 335i and was on the fence between the 6+6 or 11 and this gave me a better view of some issues that could arise. Love the content and I hope all goes well with 6+6 Can’t wait for the update!
My understanding is in a high heat twin turbo setup, a better balanced "even" wheel setup should always be used, as the balancing tolerances can be "looser;" so in an 11 blade application the weight distribution isn't even across the inner bearings that is used, whether its journal bearing or ball bearing. My understanding is that most China turbo's run a journal bearing, and with heat, the bearing gets additional play, just the nature of how it works, and in some Subaru applications this can cause the compressor blade to droop down in the compressor housing, and sometimes enough to make contact with the compressor housing, causing it to chip away, or break. This is a problem that was fixed when ball bearings became common. A prime example of this is when you hear about bearing play on turbos, if you look at the "acceptable" amount of play on a turbine shaft between a journal bearing, and a ball bearing, there is a significant difference. If these chinese turbo's are based on a ball bearing turbo design (from an aftermarket turbo place;) which some are, they won't have enough clearance in the castings, or design to allow for what is required of a journal bearing turbo. So, if you ever look at a journal bearing based turbo next to a ball bearing based turbo, you'll see the clearance between the compressor cover is significantly different between them.
This is the primary danger of China turbo's.
So on the flip side, the reason why the 6+6 design is typically better, and less prone to failure is due to the way the weight distribution works on a spinning shaft, sprung mass is VERY important, sometimes on the 6+6 you'll find that one of the blades is smaller, and is further away from the compressor cover, and the primary blade is also a bit smaller than a primary blade on a 11 blade. This usually completely removes the problem with the China turbo. Another thing to note is that some people bore out the compress cover near the highest point of the blade, i'm not one of them, but some people swear by better performance, and better turbo spooling due to less turbulance of the wheel, no idea on the truth of that, nor on whether its a placebo, or whether its from the same minds that brought us "fill the oil til its flush with the top of your oil filler neck;" but either way, if you upgrade your turbo's, might be worth trying?
Nice explanation
You are 100% correct, there are a shit ton more 11 blades that fail here in the US compared to 6+6 blades.
Just a note regarding the engine mount inserts. I noted recently that on Porsche 996 and Boxsters that it has been dyno proven that stiffer engine mounts were causing the stock ECU's to pull timing as they thought they were seeing detonation. Maybe not so much of an issue with your N54s and much more modifiable ECU's. Just an interesting thing I had noticed and thought I'd pass on
There's a setting in MHD to desensitize the knock thresholds. I think this would be the perfect situation to use it...not sure about your 911 though
I think it moves much of the stress to the engine block as well. In high powered Cummins trucks we often see windows in the block right where the solid mount is. Being aluminum and open deck, I would rather deal with a little flex. Now with sleeves and closed deck go wild!
I love this geeky side videos, they are so cool
Honestly I'm still on the fence about upgrading turbos, I still have the OEM ones and I'm not really looking for more power since the tracks around here are too small to make real use of the power, but, it would be nice to have power in the 6 to 7k rpm range yet what happened here is literally what scares me away lol
How has everyone elses turbos been holding up?
Disassemble the turbo chra housing and see how much coking is on the turbo shaft, best guess is the turbo wasn't fully balanced and that caused it to seize up and ruin the bearing and seals; pushing oil through the seals and into the exhaust. I did this on my 2JZ :(
Did you feel some axial play? When looking at the damage, it could be the thrust bearing failing. Especially during acceleration/deceleration the thrust loads can peak and damage the taperlands on the thrust bearing. Upgrading the thrust bearing is probably a good idea (Turbolab America does this mod). A good balancing job will help with durability too.
lol
Great content 👌🏻
Apparently a failed PCV system can cause the seals to fail. The block needs a bit of vacuum to actually suck the oil down the drain tubes. The common problem is just smoking but if the turbos are low quality the seal could play an even bigger role in supporting the shaft
Good luck and double check your PCV both ways
I got a post of a guy on fb that went the extra mile and fitted a boost gauge on the exhaust manifold side of his 19t N54
Ran it at 20 pounds boost and got a reading of 35psi on exhaust side , according to the common rule a pressure ratio of not more than 2 is still healthy 🧐, well everything considered obviously
One of my brother's 17t turbos on his 535 disintegrated he was only making 18 PSI. the compressor wheel was gone parts of it were literally laying on the subframe when we took the car apart. My best guess is that the shaft failed about 5 mil away from the compressor wheel.
@J B 11 blade and it was the bank 2 turbo
Hey Andrew just for interest sake, is this car still running stock PCV with upgraded pcv valve ? I’ve noticed that when blocking off the head ports without low side pcv upgrade the vacuum in the crank case is not enough to drain the oil properly out off the turbos
sad to hear this.. bit of a hit and miss with the china choo choos...I wouldn´t mind a set of 17T 6+6 though...btw what skidfactory vid are you ref too? :)
Was this just a light turbo siren when driving around? Did it get really loud on boost or did it sort of go away.
I’ve got a little bit of turbo siren especially when cold, mostly goes away when hot. Doesn’t screech under load though it’s only on gentle throttle
I was so close to buying the 11 blade off of ebay last night and this vid saved me a lot of headache lol. I think I am gonna go with pure turbos since its my daily car and I wanna be sure if they will last.
Lol I'm piped by one day lol I'm going have mine serviced by turbo lab to get me semi rite lol
I'm sure. Even pure turbo will get headache.
@@alkharusi330 pures do fail unfortunately.
Dude, if you beat the crap out of it every time you jump in the driver seat, of course, they will fail immature.
I had mine for 9 years and still driving strong every day with 21 psi.
Zero to 60s beat the crap out of his car every time he gets in the driver seat.
I'm not surprised that they failed.
@@huanweili7699 That may be true but I don't wanna take the chance since just the cost of swapping turbo is 1500 and I have had some really bad experiences in terms of reliability with my BMW already. So, I really did not want to risk it and Pures have been really amazing so far!
Not so much because of the risk of failure but the after failure care is what ultimately pushed me to get the flow max. Hopefully everything stays where its meant to from now on.
Keen to see how your car ends up!!!!
How long life it takes engine oil?
Did you use oem water cooling?
Could there have been a chunk of casting slag inside the exhaust manifold that broke away and went through the turbo wheel, may be worth checking the exhaust manifold castings internally for bits.
Possible but I don’t think that’s the case. These turbos were inspect by a few people prior to install. Especially when it became obvious they didn’t send the 6+6 that was originally ordered
Sorry I’m new here. Is there a catch can on this car? Would that help to keep the inside clean?
From my assessment when purchasing these 17T-19T and 6 blade is the better route. That's being said I also believe that there needs to be a chra inspection and rebuild if necessary due too the Chinese manufacturers holding back on upgrades their well aware of...dual porting thrust bearings, rubber seals, bearing etc Before even installing on vehicle. The turbo labs rebuild kits seems to be a remedy to the ebay turbo options.
I'd actually do a thorough break down of the internal chra..to see if upgrade parts were offered in this case..I suspect that there old know failure parts. So for the performance oriented purchasers. Rebuild the Chinese Turbo before installing them for more preferred reliability.. even 6 blade compressors wheel chra's...my two cents..from the peanut gallery.. lattas
why would you say the 6 blade is better? trying to learn
Nice video pleace send the links for the new CHRA
My goal is 500whp on 98ron fuel, is this doable with 17t Viv turbos? I have supporting mods like intake downpipes intercooler and walbro 450 lpfp. I want it to be reliable. What’s my best turbo option on a budget? Would get the 6+6 if I order them
Does this beast still run blow off valves? I only ask because of compressor surge possibility.
Good luck on boosting soon, i love that your pushing the boundary of standard fuel system 👍
@J B I was gonna suggest turbo surge also. That might explain how the aluminum dust made it into the inlet. Maybe? I mean, air was obviously flowing towards the inlet at some point.
Where to buy the rebuild kits for the 17t ??
My Daw stage 2’s that were 11 wheel blades failed the same way. And I was denied warranty
Mine failed 2 times. Second time he upgraded me to stage3. After that I went single turbo. No issues since
Just a little update I have DAW flow max and they failed after 6 month and the owner is no help he actually blocked me when I requested a warranty
That’s really crap you got blocked before he helped you work out why they failed. What was it that caused them to fail did you ever work it out. Something I think Shawn’s struggles to work out with some customers is why they fail. Please let us know the full list you had them setup on. Might help others avoid the problem. I am yet to find a set that have failed due manufacturing issues. I have seen 2 now where they have had bad boost leaks and owners didn’t realise, but before Shawn helps them he work it out he gets tired of trying to help them.
Just to simplify the above, if they were working and then failed, what condition did you put them through to cause them to fail? What I see the most is boost leaks and due to how these work, if they are running excessive wgdc due to a leak they will melt much quicker than smaller turbos. These things get hot and when you see the power they make you can understand why.
@@ZeroTo60Tube Haven’t gotten them off the car yet it’s been put up for the winter and no motivation but where did you see the massive boost leaks from? i’ve had the car smoke tested 2 times now and nothing but never hurts to look again
I’ve had 3 17t front turbos have the insides come out tru the exhaust and can’t figure out why, the car won’t make it a mile without blowing
Seems like they probably were not balanced correctly ?
Whos that pinned crank for?
Poor JB, thought yours had failed from the caption 😱
Having rebuilt many TD05/06 turbos in Evo motors, I can relate to the circlips being a pain in the dick. I had the impression that the 11blade would be harder on balancing due to odd numbering as opposed to the even 6. I recall that the 9 blade TD05's used to go bad pretty quickly but the 12bkades were no issue.
The hot side turbine only needs a touch in the exhaust housing to break, cast wins everytime. And also, in the past, it was common for the aluminium paste to be on the compressor pipe.
Could not have happened to a nicer guy, feel for JB....
That's interesting, It was my understanding that odd numberings were easier to balance that even... one blade affects the opposite side like a seesaw with even numbers.
@@andrewwilliams5337 That'd be the case if there was always a central blade. The 9 blade Chinese turbo on my GT Liberty (Legacy) died in maybe 4 days, the 12 blade ones been in for 280k kms, not an issue. Same brand, same bearing, same everything except blade design, when I spoke to a mate of mine he explained even blades ALWAYS, uneven are prone to failing.
@@joshuaeacott4226 fair enough. Surely if they were that prone to failure though, they wouldn’t be manufactured/sold 🤷🏼♂️
@@andrewwilliams5337 That can be said about many things, yet they are. Thing is they're usually manufactured over seas so they're not required to follow fair trade rules in sale countries, as they can get away with it. They screw someone over, make another ebay account, rinse repeat. Unfortunately happens far too often. At least these guys made some attempt, unlike other sellers.
@@andrewwilliams5337 perhaps the key is 2 things. Maybe under stock boost levels the thrust bearing keeps things in check but not at elevated levels with an uneven number. And I guess all you need is one manufacturer to do something that no one else does (turbine blade numbers) and they get a nice little niche market to themselves unless others buy into it as well....?
I’m worried now as I am literally in the middle of fitting my new Chinese 17T. I gave them a little spin and one catches slightly if i push on it a bit hard. I was hoping it would centre itself better when the oil is flowing through them. What do you think I should do?
For the sake of the warranty, contact the seller. However you are right it will centre more when there is oil pressure.
What does the turbo siren sound like 😂
Hey Andrew , was it the rear turbo or the front one that blew? The chipped turbine blade indicates overspool , i had the exact same failure on my stock oem N55 turbo, would be interested to know if it was the rear turbo, because looking at the stock rear boost pipe its bad , I removed my crushed parts on my rear outlet
Thanks for the great videos 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
Hey Eric, yes it was the rear turbo. This car does have the 2inch upgraded inlets like mine. Over spool is definitely a possibility. Although we werent able to identify any cause of a boost leak. WGDC in the tune was also no where near max. They weren't being push that hard in the tune at all.
The 2inch inlets is ok , i was referring to the rear oem crushed outlet side , that is a heat bomb , especially considering the front turbo also pushing boost into the same intake feeding the heat fury in the rear turbo to extremely hot EGTs , and I think , just me pondering 🤔, the WGDCs values are a average across both banks , would be interested to know what WGDCs would be on the rear turbo alone
Thanks guys keep them running 🙏🏻🙏🏻
Busy building mine with max rods and MAHLE forged pistons 😋
13:08 did I see the blades catch the housing and bend the blade slightly as you were spinning it by hand??? If so, that won't last long
It’s bloody close but doesn’t touch even with as much force as the fingers can put on it. Still don’t have much faith….. we’ll see
i have a question to about these turbos, i got a weird sounds, like the turbos might be scraping while spinning at 25% throttle, what else could that be
however no smoke, and they build boost.
The time has come for me to replace the turbos on my 2009 535i. I’m looking to upgrade and I was wondering what do you think I should put in? eBay 19t v band with turbo lab upgrades? Or should I spend more on a name brand? Like Vargas or Franketurbo?
It all comes down to goals or possible goals with the car. If you are pretty chil about power. Go china, keep it mildly tuned and enjoy. If you want to use some of the potential of the motor, you will be spending 5k on fuelling, intercooler, exhaust and so on. If you are doing all the supporting mods, i think get the better turbos. We have ordered DAW flow max for the vargas car. Super happy with the 17Ts on the e92, but you spend so much on all the supporting mods to only be held back by the china turbos. So gonna give the big boys a try this time round.
@@ZeroTo60Tube ok I think I’m gonna try my luck with the v4 19t and see what happens. I still need to be able to smog it, which includes them plugging it in to make sure the tuning is stock so hopefully it will have no issues setting the self test monitors with the Chinese turbos as long as I stay out of it I think it should be fine.
Was that an S55 crank-hub going on the M2? 😅 Oh man, I’d be so pissed if my turbos went boom at 1000k’s.
When you put in a new chra do you have to rebalance ?
Sorry i missed this comment. Not if they are supplied as balanced CHRA. These had balance marks on them.
April 23 2022. Ahh! Okay now I'm a bit freaked out in that I've ordered the 11 blade 17t's. I'm probably too poor to be trying to have a higher power type car (Actually two lol). Because if the turbskis blow on me at any time I'm going to be hooped. But what can a poor boy do when he's got an addiction and a need for TORQUE! LOL. I sure hope I chose well. I've seen that the ones I ordered have a split between the exhaust housing and the actual turbo housing. Of course there's absolutely no information given for the differences between the very same rated turbos from them that they charge and extra $250 for without any band welded in between them. They are a solid cast exhaust to the unit. So....here we gooooooo. P.S. The turbos I ordered did say they are for my exact model as in it's a 2008 335 XI and the other ones said they are for the 135i and Z4 models. Why there should be any difference I don't know but there it is.
It really seems luck of the draw, dont panic. And do make sure you have metal in-forced inlets
My car drank Castrol edge 5w40 like it was going out of fashion. Much of that residue is probably just burnt up oil additives. The black residue in the turbo could be metal. Could have been an oil starvation issue local to the turbo causing thrust fail and contact. Garrett I recall recommended filling turbos with a special moly grease during assembly to prevent starvation on first start. I would try a different engine oil if it was drinking it and I would give it a walnut blast if it hasn’t had one because a decent chunk of carbon could probably damage a wheel like that.
If your car is burning a Synthetic, might be worth going to a semi Synthetic. For example a HPR5 5W-40 was burnt by the litre in a Subaru I owned, went to Penrite Vantage Semi Synthetic, Zinc based, 15W-40, never lost oil again.
@@joshuaeacott4226 it’s fine on synthetic just not edge 5w40
Where did you get the index 12 injectors?? Do you recommend anywhere in particular to get them from?
Cheers guys 🍻
Fcp euro lifetime warranty 👍
@J B Were you having any issues with your injectors, bad cold starts etc? Curious as mine are starting to play up....
Getting nervous watching this when i have 11blade 19Ts
UK set of 17ts failed recently too, within the week. Maybe a current production flaw from China, my 2019 17t are going fine
@J B what wheel, 11 blade?
@J B man that's so unlucky, others in the group are still running original 16ts with no issue too, I wonder what's going on
wich one is better the 6+6 blade or 11 blade? because yesterday i ordered 19t with 11 blade
The 11 blades should spool faster but limited up top. So for fast spool, go 11 blade, for more top end power go 6+6 blade.
@@ZeroTo60Tube I bought the 11 blade 17t and installed them. Any way to prevent them from failing? Possibly running lower boost? All these videos are scaring me 😂
5 winter - 40 weight
got some 17ts and put like 2500 miles on them and they clapped themselves today
Which version did you get
Run redline oil 5w-40 better for turbos and heat!!
You mis spelled Liqui Moly. 😁
Do those outlets fit around the steering column without any modification?
Yes, l have them.
Can confirm they do not fit, needed to be modified.
@@ZeroTo60Tube Did it involve a big hammer?
Yep - I had to modify my VTT RHD rear pipe to fit.
what are the LHD outlets for?
far out the new chra's blades look super close to top left part of housing on camera. 13:05
Viv 17t turbos are great IF u buy them and have them balanced. The new version is much much better
6+6 is the way to go and will be inherently more reliable due to a lower weight I would say
Looking back at all the busted up chineesium ive seen....most of them are 11 blades.
@@H1labs china is not well known for properly balanced turbos
Next I test my 22 dollar chinese racing brakes ! man i luv saving money!
How many kilometers did these turbines travel before the breakdown?
Approx 1000klms
How long did it last
Under 1000ks I think.
Well, that's a big bummer guys. Dutch regards, Nico.
This is why I'm happy with stock turbos. If shit hits the fan than I'll get new ones from FCP euro and get the lifetime warranty. Chinese turbos are a bit too expensive for me when considering the risk. I'll just max out the stock turbos and focus on getting a LSD and suspension.
But new stock turbos are 2k compared to half
@@CaptainPancakez Mitsubishi branded turbos are cheaper. OE without the BMW tax.
@@EthanCommins888 where?
@@CaptainPancakez FCP Euro. But it's mostly for the lifetime warranty
So he was running bigger turbos, 3 x standard boost and running the very restrictive RHD standard outlets.. yeah thats why the rear turbo blew.
@@grovsey3656 yes, 24psi is 3 x 8psi, the stock rhd outlets are very restrictive.
@J B stock rhd outlets all day long on 27psi? l would have to disagree, its a big restriction.
@@adamspooner2745 Not the case, step intercooler piping down from 3" to 2", it won't blow a turbo, nor will inlets, all it'll do is make it harder for the turbo to pull in air, not fuck it up, it isn't a restriction like a rag in the pipe, the air still flows. Not a particularly great thought process. Intake flow for the wheel doesn't cause any additional stress unless it's over spun, which at 18 down to 15psi it wouldn't. Most it'd do is possibly choke the car out, as the turbo can't suck enough air in to provide desired boost. Which would be seen in the WDC acting abnormally. Which given these guys are probably not idiots, they'd have checked the logs for any abnormalities, and drawn a conclusion from there, not only that, they'd see subpar performance if that were the case.
@J B absolutely not man. Check Waste gate duty cycle in your logs, that'll tell you if there's a restriction there thats not accounted for in the tune, but i doubt it's the case. Upgrading the outlet pipe is never a bad idea though man.
@J B l noticed a big difference upgrading the outlets on 18psi on stock turbos. I also have the vargas outlets with 19Ts. Cause it was the rear turbo that blew was my first thought, extra heat cause its more restrictive on the rear turbine cause of the kink in the pipe 🤷🏼♂️
Hopefully the new internals hold up better,
My stock ones have the howling whistle, probably about to die 😭
lol, going RB Billet OEM or 1's hopefully.
Buy right, buy once... The cost of these is never worth the risk. Even with VIV, who warranty their turbos, the cost of install (or time and frustration doing it yourself) is simply not worth the $600-800 you save. Not to mention the resale on these is much less than those from a reputable company. I just feel like for such an expensive and integral part of the engine there is no sense in cheaping out.
Buy once, cry once 😅
What hybrids were on 1M that failed instantly?
Viv 17t
@@KurumaDesigns 11 blade?
Yeah 11 blade
You said 24psi as if that isn't a lot... If you look online, most people are only pushing these to 21psi MAX...
This was 24 psi mid tapering to 19psi. Nothing for hybrid turbos. Like probably 200hp down on my setup.
@@ZeroTo60Tube For Pure’s/equivalent’s, Sure. But Chinese Hybrid’s? A bit of caution imo.
So where is the guy now that said vargas is ass like 4 months ago. Looks like my turbos held up longer then his beloved Chinese boys
the least Vargas can do is outlast China turbo. Pure and RB still have much better customer service and reliability
nooooooooo not the wuhan war whistles
haha! I feel bad for the guy, but that is funny.
Mmm, so it's a *chinese* thing, if this a US made turbo, will it be an *US* thingy?
Just like it was a china thing when i was praising them less than 2 weeks ago.
@@ZeroTo60Tube why not just leave out the "chinese" thingy ???
Well, they are made in china, sold by Chinese companies. Some amazing stuff comes out china and some horrific stuff too. These are sold by shadow companies with very little care or support offered (this is my main issue with cheap stuff out of china). So until they are actually backed by a decent company, for now they are just generic cheap china turbos. Remember they still supply these with fake photo copied balance sheets, they are still trying to manipulate/deceive their customers. There is very little regulation on a national level on Chinese manufacturing, so if the products are not being sold by a reputable company, you must exercise caution when looking at cheap china products. In australia for instance, there are laws in place to ensure a consumer gets what they pay for. This protection does not exist if you are buying from china.
@@ZeroTo60Tube "These are sold by shadow companies with very little care or support offered (this is my main issue with cheap stuff out of china). So until they are actually backed by a decent company, for now they are just generic cheap china turbos. Remember they still supply these with fake photo copied balance sheets, they are still trying to manipulate/deceive their customers. There is very little regulation on a national level on Chinese manufacturing, so if the products are not being sold by a reputable company, you must exercise caution when looking at cheap china products." - you said it and thats exactly the point, by conveniently calling these as "chinese company" or "indian companies" or whatever instead of naming these company specifically to hold them accountable gives a very false impression that all chinese companies are suspects - be it praise or reprimand, its the company that should be named and bore the responsibility, IMO ...
if you choose to buy and test products from these "shadow" companies, then you should be even more careful in naming these culprits directly instead of simply addressing them as "chienese" giving the impression that they are representative of chinese made products - doing this will be very unfair to those real chinese companies that are honestly trying hard to convince the world that they can make genuinely good products too - mind you the there are many chinese turbo companies and the turbo in most chinese made cars including bmw, mercs, audis have their suppliers in china ...
the same should be applied to all products-companies from all countries to avoid misinformation and false impressions - its good that OZ has good reg to control product quality but it is no stranger to products of sub-quality as well such as contaminated health supplements including fish oil, super food etc that are sold all over the world by some big name ozzie companies - every country has its own crooks ...
btw love your vids on your n54 adventure - brilliantly informative and great stuffs - do thank you for that ...
@@ajs-qv5fe everyone around the world knows that products from China aren't exactly top notch a lot of the time. You're taking a huge gamble buying equipment that requires such tight tolerances from a Chinese company, they are known to cut corners and provide terrible customer support to cut costs. They are more about quantity not quality. And then on top of it almost no consumer protections, especially for those outside of China.
Clickbait???
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