Another great topic Desert Dog! I am 67 now and have been hunting big game for 55 years. As a hobby I collected and used a wide variety of rifles and calibers. I have used the 338 Win Mag, the 300 Win Mag, the 300 Wby Mag, the 270 Wby Mag, the 257 Wby Mag, the 7 mm Rem Mag, the 270 Win, the 6mm Rem, the 243 Win, the 3006 Springfield and the 308 Win…….. In my safe now you will only find the 3006 Springfield and the 308 WINCHESTER………………..the other calibers are gone……………..
🤠 Ronbo (Montana Mountain Man) - Wisdom comes with age and experience! I couldn't agree with you more (except about the 270 Winchester - though my backup rifle is a 30-06)! Perhaps a 308 Winchester will also soon be in my future? It was the only big game caliber that consistently had Ammunition on the shelf throughout the "Ammunition Crisis", one that is good on barrel life, pleasant to shoot, and capable of taking any species I hunt without destroying much meat! But, my Grandfather use to call Magnums ("Manglums")! And while bonded bullets and solid copper bullets are replacing the old cup and draw bullets (that often blew apart), I still couldn't agree with him more! Your caliber choices are good ones and your "lessons learned" - timeless!
@@ronlowney4700 if you are considering a .308, look at the 7mm-08! I love mine and it works so great for deer and black bear sized game. I am really happy with the performance with the 150 gr. TSX and the 139 gr. LRX.
🤠 Ronbo (Montana Mountain Man) - They are both fine calibers, no doubt! I hunted with someone who had a 7mm-08 about 30 years ago and found it very pleasant to shoot and easy to pack and hunt with such a short barrel! However, since the "Ammunition Crisis" began, the 0.308 Ammunition and componants have always on the shelf - but not the 7mm-08! Because I have both a 30-06 Springfield and a 270 Winchester, it is not like I need another gun! But, as I get older, the 0.308 and 7mm-08 would be better options (due to lighter recoil than the 30-06 and I could get it in a much lighter rifle and in a Sako Rifle - my favorite)! Now, while the 7mm-08 would have less of a kick, the 308 would be better when I hunt for elk in the timber! I cold load it up with a nice 200 grain Swift A-Frame bullet for elk! When hunting open country, I would still use my 270 Winchester for longer shots! Both the 270 and 308 have about the same recoil! I am still torn, because I've wanted that 7mm-08 for along time now, but have put it off for other purchases! I am still torn on this purchase and am still contemplating what to do next? Hummm...🤷♂️
@@ronlowney4700 Well I think you should go with the 308……. Does everything the 7mm-08 does out to 400 yards… We should not be shooting past this distance, to many variables to guarantee a sure one shot kill,in my opinion……. Plus loaded ammo available for 308……. Loading the 200 grain bullet would give very slow velocity in the 308 because the bullet takes up so much space……. Good luck…
Hey DD, could you do a video about shot placement? I've heard lots of things about the high lung shot, shoulder shots, spine shots, the neck shot, and ect
In my experience if you take shoulder shots, a high shoulder shot will likely drop the animal in its tracks or make it expire quickly. It makes sense to me to assume that the closer proximity to the spine can jolt the nerves system and cause the animal to drop. I have also observed more rapid blood loss when the veins and arteries above the heart are severed the lungs will also completely fill with blood and not partially as with lower lung shots. I would also assume that if the arteries above the heart are severed the haert will pump all the blood out of the body rendering muscles without oxygen. My first two antelope were dead centre heart shots that exploded the hearts yet the animals ran almost 100 meteres (Impala and Springbok) last year I had to take a very quick shot on a waterbuck and it was a low shoulder shot rupturing the heart yet it ran more than 100 yards, previous waterbuck that I had taken were high shoulder shots and they never made it 10 yards.
Perhaps in the future. Its a balancing act for hunters between the safe shot that preserves meat, vs a chance at an instant drop but losing some if the most delicious morsels. Shot angle and anatomy play a crucial role too. It's a complex subject that is very much situational. I use high shoulder, heart/lung, and neck shots; but only on the right animals in the right circumstances. Shot placement is NOT a "one size fits all" concept.
Another great video. No need for a magnum as long as the 30-06 is still around. I've hunted for a long time and it took me a long time to understand how great it really is and now it's what I use on nearly every hunt.
Thank you i got into an argument with someone saying they hunt 800 yards with a 25-06 i said post the footage as thats not hunting but most cant actually hunt anymore
Great video. You made an excellent point on cup and core projectiles versus monolithic projectiles and velocity. At longer ranges monolithic projectiles are harder to open up compared to the damage a cup and core projectile can do. Thanks for sharing.
I used to hunt mule deer with my 7mm. When I could afford to buy a new rifle, I bought the 270. My marksmanship improved greatly. There’s no reason to hunt deer with a seven MM, although I never ruined any meat on any deer with a 7 mm magnum. Because I am a decent shot. I just noticed that my groups got better at the gun range once I started shooting the 270. It’s also quite a bit lighter. I keep my seven MM because it was my first rifle and still a great rifle for elk and bear. But as for deer, I only use my 270 now. There’s just no reason when the longest shot I’ve ever taken at a deer was 325 yards. The other 13 deer have been less than 250 yards.
🤠 RONBO (Montana Mountain Man) - You could do a series on this topic alone and only scratch the surface! Almost every state has deer (most of which can be killed with just about any caliber) and most Western States have elk! Pretty much all other species require a special (unguarenteed) "draw tag", rather than an "over the counter tag" for every other horned and antlered animal! Yes, their are predators, pigs, gophers and other critters one may shoot! But, let's be honest, most of us on these "hunting channels" always discuss/debate the "best elk rifle" - that will, most often, also be useful for deer and other smaller critters (like antelope)! Most also want, "one gun to do it all" - a big ask! But, in my state - deer, elk, and antelope season overlap - so I am usually hunting multiple species at the same time and can only pack one gun! When trying to "Justify" the need for a "Magnum Caliber", some will also say they need a Magnum, because "Bear Country is Elk Country", without realizing that most bears are already hibernating by the time elk hunting rifle season is underway! So, how much gun is enough to kill the animal - without wasting (blood shot) meat, without having to track it for miles, at the terrain (distance to be shot), and weather conditions (wind and temperature shifts) you might encounter? It varies, no doubt! But experience is the best teacher and it is beneficial to learn from others mistakes, before making your own! So, with that, I'll share what I know! Having owned multiple "Big Magnums" and having shot many others, "they are not necessary in order to kill an elk"! Nor, "does it guarantee you'll kill one any faster"! Do you disagree? Then read on! I'll tell you that it all primarily comes down to good shot placement (assisted by practice of shooting and ensuring your rifle is sighted in correctly); shooting them at ethical hunting distances (this depends on the wind and it is usually blowing where I hunt); and choosing a good bullet (one that your rifle will shoot, that will mushroom as it dumps its energy in the animal, and will still exit the elk); and choosing a temperature stable powder that provides the best accuracy (over the highest velocity one) for shot consistency (if you are reloading)! It is that simple! Once the bullet leaves the elk, any excess energy that remains provides no benefit to killing the elk - period! Many prefer a bullet that stops on the back side of the hide (so all the energy is dumped into the elk), but I like an exit wound to collapse the lungs quicker! So, what caliber do I like best? ...My caliber of choice is the 270 Winchester (and my backup is a 30-06)! If you think that is too small, just know that my Grandfather's 270 Winchester killed hundreds of elk with that caliber (as he worked on the firing lines near Yellowstone Park, back in the day); three record book moose, one record book bison, one record book sheep, two record class goats, bears, etc...! If the 270 Winchester can kill that many elk, moose, bison, grizzly bears, etc...then you'll have a hard time convincing me that you need anything "bigger"! If your worried about bears, or any other critter attacking you, then just buy some damn bear spray! It's proven effective, just like the 270 Winchester! 😃
Thanks for the great video DD. My only interest in magnums was the stories of hunting big bears and dangerous African game with them. I was a bowhunter, disabled now, but did take 3 whitetails with rifles. I hunted from the ground, and the shots were 15, 10, and 42 yards. The first two fell to 30-30s and the "long shot" was a .270 Win. Iron sights. All with Remington CoreLokt soft points. No tracking needed, dropped right there. The longest shot I might have encountered where I hunted would have been about 100 yards. I'd always wanted to go out west for mule deer and elk, but never made it. Thinking I could've just scoped up the .270 and it would be all I'd need.
Leaving the Nostalgia and romance aside, I think in those older days, the gunpowder was just different. If you look at the design of the sig fury .277 cartridge case with the steel bottom, suddenly higher pressure are possible. So now that opens a new door to smaller but more powerful cartridges where SD is still maintained.
100% Correct. Some old cartridges, loaded with modern bullets and propellants, are just great and perform extremely well compared to modern ones. The most important factor in hunting performance of ANY caliber ever designed is still where you put the bullet...
Truthfully for me as I am getting older, I love those magnum especially 7 rem mag. I own 2 of them. But to me the 308 does what they did specifically now that IAM older and eye sight is limited. It's all about shot replacement to me. Love you're show's
A great video Desert Dog! As a broken down retired veteran my legs don’t work like they used to and being as I’m a custom gunsmith/gun engraver I build my own hunting rifles. That being said I do have a .300 RUM I use for elk solely because where I hunt elk I need that extra range but only out to 600 or 700 yards. Under that range I use a .300 Win Mag and my still hunting rifle is a .35 Whelen. I can still still hunt in the mountains which is great and my preferred method of hunting. I can’t hike long distances anymore because of PAD but I can find a position to shoot at longer ranges. I choose my rifle by the type of hunting I’ll be doing that day. I’m really enjoying your common sense videos and the truthful information contained therein. There is so much hype in the gun and ammo industries these days that it makes my head hurt. So much bullshit wrapped up around the Hornady cartridges (6.5 Creedmore to the PRC’s) and their bullets that I refuse to even purchase ANY of their products. Keep up the great work and the great content.
To me, magnums was designed to shoot the extra heavy bullets of the specific calibre. This was valid in the cup and core era. With the "new" mono and bonded bullets, magnums are no longer needed.
Again an honest and humble presentation from DD! I wish had a reason for a magnum cartridge. It's just getting a heavier bullet farther down range. If I ever chose a magnum cartridge it would be a high BC bullet, otherwise my .308 can kill everything I'm able to hunt. My friends who shoot magnums have one thing in common, measuring man parts, lol! You know the type. Thanks again for your refreshing perspective.
As always a first class missive on the subject. Your are my personal favorite Love the way you do your videos and lay out information for us. You illustrated why recently went with another 30 06 for my upcoming coastal Blackbear hunt instead of taking my 300 Weatherby for this trip Thanks for the reinforcement 😃
DD, Having hunted since the 70's, my experience tells me that virtually all calibers perform the same at less than 250yds. A hunter's shot placement is far more important than using the latest "magnum". Of course, some guys are recoil lovers so I recommend the 458Lott for their next whitetail adventure, LOL! Great video, thanks for posting. Take care and be well!
I used a 450-400 NE on antelope and a 375 H&H on a mule deer doe, not because I "love" recoil, but because I wanted to hunt with the rifles and those were the tags I had. My "recommended" calibers for those animals are much smaller. Use what you want as long as it is at least adequate, and you can shoot it accurately.
My two older brothers have used the 300 Winchester Mag for deer for awhile. When I ask why?? They both say the same thing.. I never had to track a deer that I shot with a 300! Me.. I'll stick with the 7mm-08 Remington.. I never had to track more than thirty yards!
Nothing wrong with the 7mm08 it’s a great round and does everything I need it to do I will never part with my Sako 85 in 7mm08 it’s a awesome gun cheers Yogi Australia 🇦🇺 🤙🤙
@@brettstewart6036 Sako is definitely a dream rifle for myself. I have a Tikka T3x Hunter chambered in the 7mm-08 Remington.. and it just happens to be my most accurate firearm. I get .55 inches at 100 yards with Winchester 140 grain ballistic tips.. and .67 inches at 100 yards with Norma Whitetail Ammunition. Actually harvested a big bodied pennsylvania eight point back in November with this rifle.
@@bowhunterd2407 I'm the same.. I only hunt deer and black bear with mine. I'm more of a incidental bear hunter. Black bear runs into deer season here in Pennsylvania.
I would suggest that standard cartridges like the 06 are actually pretty magnum to start with. In the Anglosphere of cartridges, the military loaded 303 is pretty much standard. It may not be your favourite cartridge, but it is a classic 30 caliber that has worked on everything from elephant ivory exploitation, to a decade of world wars. Both the Germans, and the Americans fielded heavier recoiling, and presumed superior cartridges, notwithstanding that after action reports showed most effective shooting was at a much closer range than these cartridges were developed for. Consider the ground breaking Carcano with it's fixed sights, or the the White Death whose sniping exploits were mostly short range with iron sights; not to mention the post war move to assault rifles with much lighter classes of cartridges. Between the 30 caliber cartridges the case capacity of the 30-06 is 31% larger than the 303. When you drop down to the 270, as an example, you are certainly in the range of magnum, beltless performance, in practice, if not definition. You can drive 270 bullets faster, but whether it makes much sense is another mater. The ratio of bullet weight to case capacity for 303 ball is 3.8, in sporting dress it is 3.2. With the 270 the ratio is 2.1 for typical bullets. Though it can be as high as 1.5. These are just examples, as actual loads and propellants used in cordite age 303, to modern day handloads are not comparable. But the 06 does have a decent capacity case.
The truth has been spoken..at the ranges Im willing to shoot at the 30.06 and the 35 whelen will take anything in North America, brown bear and moose included
Every time I find myself seeking some new craze caliber and wonder why i need and this and that and so many vlogs steering me to this or that new fab…….aaahhhh what to do. Come to DD’s page and he can put me back into reality that my ought six, .308 and 7-08 are plenty to play with. In Canada here I always said stay within the true 5 which I say are 300 WM, 7mm RM, .30-06, .308 and .270. Theses 5 for all around game and ammo availability. Yes a couple others but these 5 are the main ones to revolve around. Great vid, love this sport! Cheers everyone.
I think that the 300 H&H is the greatest cartridge invented besides the 30-06 for hunting most big game in North America I like the old 270 Winchester also but to push a 180 grain bullet harder the 300 H&H is a very fine cartridge
Great video. I have never been a fan of, nor understood the justification for most hunters choosing a magnum cartridge. In my opinion, there is nothing on the North American continent that the 30-06 can't take care of. The .243 Winchester also makes a fabulous deer rifle having less felt recoil but still offers plenty of FPE upon impact. One final point about reloading magnum rifle cartridges in our current state of the industry, try and find large rifle magnum primers. They are impossible to get. Standard large rifle primers have shown up a handful of times though. Another plus for the 30-06 or .308.
I'd like your opinion on The Moose hunting style that was passed down through generations. Using campfire smoke to kill human was taught to us, also vocally calling them in range with birch bark call. My cousin and I sit in 300 year old treestand blinds that are about 100 long paces from each other. The one who calls in the bull takes it out, while the other in the blind uses the Moose Paddles to turn its attention towards when in range for a good headshot. If my cousin fills his tag and mine in 1 year I really don't mind just as long as we come home with our quota, and continue to hunt till we do so. 2022 Holitna hunt, 5 cow Moose came out of the other side of the field. Five mins later the biggest monster Bull ive seen in years with 6 brow tines each side came out and I called it into within 30 long paces. I dumped my mag of Partition 180s and loaded 220 Partitions outta my pack. I noticed a 3 spike off to the left at 45 to 50... it stopped at the salt pile and looked towards the other blind... I sent one over to him and he dropped in his tracks. My cousin bewildered didn't know what the hell and why did that bigger one not drop.... he didn't notice the 3 spike drop and was tunneled into the 6 brow tine bull. Swearing up a big fuss he said WTF you let that once in a lifetime go for this one, I said yup! quota met! He finally understood why I let the Monster go with those 5 females😂 looked 70" or better!
Personally, I love magnum cartridges if only for when I squeeze off that first shot at the range, and the guy next to me looks at me like my nose is on backwards and yells out, "what the hell's wrong with you!" and when he does, it isn't even in the form of a question.
If I’m being honest, I’m a pretty mediocre shot. 250 yards is the absolute maximum I should ever attempt a shot in an ethical hunting situation. The extra mbpr doesn’t buy me anything I should be using. Better shots than me? Maybe they can get some advantage. But 243 or 30-06 is plenty in my situation. I watched a guy beat the hell out of himself getting familiar with a 300 prc mountain rifle he had just picked up the last time I was at the range. I do enjoy shooting a higher recoil cartridge (45-70), but it better be a darn good fitting rifle for it to be fun. Since it has the opposite ballistics of the magnum cartridges, I just shorten up my range a bit more. That’s ok, just a different challenge (and uniquely fun because of it). If all I wanted was meat then the local grocery store is way cheaper and more efficient than the multitude of costs associated with trying to hunt big game.
Great video as always. Every september im always amused/sad to see guys at the local range blasting away with their “flinch factories”. I remember when the .338 lapua was hot for a while when everyone wanted to be like Chris Kyle. It was rare to see someone shooting one of them well enough that Id want to hunt with or guide for them. Best wishes-
Am looking forward to growing old with a.22WMR then! (Magnum - no recoil). I like the honesty about these presentations. I think you are spot-on when describing uncertainty as a driver for Magnum use.. And then there are hunters who just like to be recoil junkies just in case grizzly Adams isn't there to talk bear and save the day without pulling a trigger on that raccoon hunt.
Never owned a magnum. Never will. 30-06 more than adequate. I dropped a grizzly with a '06 stoked with 180 ROUND NOSE. Scary accurate and flatter shooting than given credit for. Most overrated is the 7mm Rem. Magnum. An excellent cartridge, but in all practical terms no better than the '06. If I had to have a magnum it would be a 338 or a 375. I had a particular liking for the 8mm Rem. Mag. when it first came out in '79. I'll stick with the '06, thank you very much.
Exactly the fear of unknown is the main reason, and I actually like a bit of recoil (not punishing recoil) it makes shooting for me more fun in a way and teaches beter shooting discipline en body position There is just something about the feel about 300 wm and 7mm rem mag thats to me Good video as always thanks
For me it's about versatility. Sometimes you need that insurance policy as you said. Often times you don't. If you hand load you can load that magnum down to something more standard and manageable, which is what I do if Im going after Whitetails. If I'm after bigger critters at extended ranges, I like having the option of a heavy for caliber bullet with a flat trajectory with ample kinetic energy. It's a similar concept of having a shotgun that's capable of running 3" and 3.5" but can also run regular 2.75" I like 7mm Rem mag. With 168 and 175's I don't notice much more recoil than a 180gr 30-06. If I load it down with a 140gr to 2800fps it's like shooting a 7mm-08 or 7x57mm.
Important to note that a lot of people seem to go bigger due to a lack of skill. Their mindset is if they make a poor shot, the magnums will allow a larger margin of error. I always hated that style of thinking but I see a lot of people who live by it.
I also hate that logic. Magnums do have the benefit of delivering more energy to the target, but it's still a moot point without a precise shot. Energy won't compensate for bad shot placement.
But i like both the 7mm an 30-06. I also like the 220 grain soft point corelokt remingtons, an federal soft point 220 grain in 30-06. A bunch of stopping power esp in my dads long barrel 30-06.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 Oh i love them 220 grain soft point core lokt bullets my old man taught me to shoot them big animals no further then 100 yards away from the rivers an creeks as long as the boat can make it to the animal thats knocked down
IMO Barnes LRX or TTSX bullets launched from magnum cartridges are an ideal choice for hunting large bull elk and bull moose in diverse conditions up here in Northern Canada. This combination provides more shot opportunities… Shoulder shots and quartering shots are more feasible and less risky. The probability of achieving an exit wound with a strong blood trail is increased. For those follow up to anchor shots on moving animals at any angle, penetration performance is vital. The cost to achieve these benefits is increased recoil for sure but I consider it to be a good return on investment… especially when it’s something like a 1200lb bull moose that took 5 years of draws to get a tag for. These chances are arguably priceless. For this job I am a fan of the 300WSM with 175gr LRX bullets at ~3050fps MV. The wizzum gets this done with less powder than the winmag which is pretty cool but component and ammo availability for the winmag is much better which is super cool. Cheers!
I have a 17 rem mag... it's so powerful... it won't even pass thru a yote. Hard to find the entrance wound, but it turns the insides to guts. 20 grains at 4400 does strange things.
If your super comfortable with that round, you can take down any animal land animal with that round. Shoot a moose under the ear itll drop like a sack of potatoes. Right where it stands.
Seems like the 30-06 is really all you need. Depending on bullet construction, there really isn't anything you can't ethically harvest in North America. With ballistics similar to a 7mmRM and a larger diameter, why take on the added expense and recoil of the magnum cartridges?
In my case, it's match the cartridge to the topical hunting conditions, game size and expected distance to target. I have never been let down by the saying " I'd rather have too much than not enough". However the newer efficient cartridges do have merit.
I wonder why Winchester didn't call the .220 Swift a "magnum"? It was in the same timeframe as renaming the Super 30 and the .375 H&H Belted Express. Great vid, Desert.
I think putting "Swift" in the name was enough, lol. Should have been called "220 Barrel Wrecker". I read stories from writers in the 40s who experienced blown-out throats in as little as 300 rounds! On the other end of the spectrum, you have the WSSM cartridges, which aren't magnums at all.
Hi. Love your work. Keep it up! But there is also the point of leadfree bullets and shorter barrels/moderators. Those bullets need to be over 600m/s or 1800f/s to expand. I believe with leadfree bullets and moderators there will be a shift to higher speed cartridges. Best from Norway.
For all running games/ battue style of hunting at close range, it is best to be equipped with a magnum: it gives you a margin of errors as shot placement tend to be less accurate.
DD didn't mention the penalty of carrying a heavier magnum rifle in the scrub plus larger scope for longer shots, the extra pounds make a difference after a short time of lugging it. But they are awesome to shoot the big fire stick nonetheless
What I've been able to determine on rifle cartridges, Magnum or otherwise and guns in general IS .... ..... that a firearm/ ammo manufacturer knows that they're probably N0T going to sell you another one of something that you already have !
Rapid energy dump or bullet fragmentation creates meat damage. Hydrostatic shock might not destroy anything, and if it does factor in, effects to the central nervous system are small and unpredictable.
What are people even doing out in the field that they need more than a .30-06? I gotta greatly suffer the shooter next to me at the range with an aggressive muzzle brake because they can't handle their magnum rifle.
Do I need a 300 Weatherby mag for what I hunt? Nope. FWIW I don't hunt deer with my 300 WBY. I have a 270 Winchester for that. The reason I got a Weatherby? I enjoy the velocity and the kick. I can shoot a 180 gr TTSX 3300 FPS. I've also got a 130 TTSX shooting MOA going 3750 FPS. Now I don't plan to hunt with the 130 or shoot it a lot. But it's still fun. The great thing about America is we have plenty of cartridge choices. Thanks for the video
Soooooo spot on DD! Manufacturers have to survive. They hype, writers hype and long range shows hype. Customers fall prey and want to be heros in the field with no concept of how to do those things but will buy and try. Sad. Our grandpa's guns are better guns due to modern ammo Manufacturers, powders and bullets. The essence of hunting has been lost. I only watch Meateater and subscribe to people with your ethics and philosophy.
I’ve killed 6 bull moose, using a 7 Mag, .30-06, and a .264. I never thought I needed a .300 or a .338, until my guide told me this story. He was guiding a client in 2019. An average bull appeared at 150 yards, shook his head, and charged. The hunter shot him in the chest once, twice, then a third time, with his .300 Win Mag. The bull fell 30 yards before trampling the hunter. Would my ‘06 have dropped him in time? All I know, is that I’d rather have a .300 in a case like this. But I still haven’t bought one. I’ll be back in Canada this year, but without a .300…maybe.
With the same bullet of the same weight, the 30-06 and the 300win would have done the same; but perhaps follow-up shots would have been faster with the 06? FYI, I use my 35 Whelen AI for moose.
Did you ask him what type of bullet he was using? The story sounds like "bull" to me, but occasionally, strange things happen! That being said, the 300 WM and the 30-06 SP really aren't that far apart in performance! If your guide is convincing you that elk may attack you, and you need something bigger than a 30-06 - find another guide! Or go buy some bear spray - it's proven effective on "man eaters" like grizzlies and will work wonders on "smaller herbivores" like elk! 🤣
So these days, we have lasers, and I don't know why maximum point blank range is a big deal any more. For one thing, it isn't entirely accurate. Ross Seyfried recommended verifying all the supposed points of impact, which is tough to do, if you don't have access to a properly set up range out to 300+ yards. He said that in his guiding career fictional zeros were a major cause of poor rifle marksmanship, computer printouts are not the same thing as verified zeros. Maximum point blank range is a concept for minimizing the need for holdover, but it has two problems: People assume it means you can sight at 100 yards and not check the other zeros. And they forget it is based on the idea of very good field accuracy. It falls apart if you shoot 3 inch groups. Then you also have to know what 350 yards is. The chart only works if you know the max yardage, which is beyond most people's ability. Though, you can work with the idea if you: 1) Tighten the window, say to 6 inches. Then you probably will fall into the chart. But this is basically the same thing as saying you will cut 100 yards off your range, which certainly will give better results than trying to press for longer distances. 2) Use a little holdover. Assume your chart says, as the above that the 300 mag reduces your drop by 1 inch at 350. Surely you can determine when your beyond the halfway point of your ark, and the bullet is on the downward path. You don't have to know precisely. All you have to know is you are not shooting a short range. At that point hold high 1 inch, ish, and you gained everything the 300 mag had to offer. 3) Use a laser every time the target is out there at max ethical range, and undisturbed.
At it's core, magnums are just marketing hype. As you say, the new magnums don't use the name, just as the new Bud Light doesn't rock rainbow cans any more. Cartridges should be assessed on their merits not their nomeclature. Something like "endurance" sports will actually make you stronger, all equal. But enduring recoil will degrade hearing. It isn't something you can just gut it through. Once a person starts to think they should get their next custom rifle with a muzzle brake, they should just admit they have exceeded their recoil tolerance. Sensei Don Heath argued that you shouldn't use a rifle you didn't feel your could run 30 rounds through, as he had often encountered either terrorists, or poachers in the bush of Africa. We aren't there yet, but we could be soon enough. So muzzle brakes and magnums are out. Where I live, extremely short barrels are legal and people are nutty about them. Even with 308s, most of the burn is in the air. Then you throw in muzzle brakes, and heaven forbid, magnums. Nasty. I think magnums are largely preferred by herd mentality hunters (trajectory magnums). I bow hunt and I don't care if I don't get an animal because it is 370 yards away, not 350. It doesn't hold up particularly well either way. But if my guide and trackers worked hard all week to put me on a great animal and I can't do my part, and all I would have had to do was shoot a bean pole magnum, that is a concern. One doesn't want to let others down. But by myself, it is my hunt, my rules.
@@theoutdoorsmantimg3450 It can take advantage of about half the bullet-weight range of the 30-06 with the factory twist rate, and wastes a LOT of powder for reduced loads (and reduced loads usually lack accuracy with the 7mmRM case). I've never considered it to be very versatile.
I don't believe in magnums and never needed one! If you need more gun I suggest you go up in caliber, more importantly, you need to practice your shooting for better shot placement. What do I have and suggest you ask? (12 gauge shotgun, .22lr, 25-06 w/ 100 grain bullet, .270 w/ 140 grain, 30-06 pushing 180 gr). Experience? (60 years of shooting, hunting, military etc.)
I've been thinking of getting a new rifle " 6.8 western")magnumish) but I haven't seen a real reason to not continue using my 30.06 everything that gets hit by the old 06 still dies so I don't really think I need one..🤷🏼♂️
Hey desert dog, I got a good question that might twist your brain a bit. With today’s long range target shooting at animals and how many people are following that trend. What do you consider to be more ethical. Hunting game with a less than ideal caliber for a species of game( like going moose hunting with a 25-06), or shooting an elk at 900 yards with a 300 weatherby? For me. Today’s modern bullets can really make a cartridge like the 25-06 punch above it’s weight. And again with modern bullets shots are easier to take at longer ranges. But. What’s more ethical? For decades many hunters have chosen lighter recoil cartridges for smaller framed hunters. Just recently the long range hunting craze has begun. For me. I consider the latter to be more ethical. A 25 26 and 27 caliber with a well constructed bullet can really be an eye opener. I’m no fan of the lr craze and never will frankly
In the world of logic, a question like this would be considered a "false dilemma" (a fallacy). A philosopher might consider your question a "Hobson's Choice". It's like saying; "what's more ethical, rape or attempted murder". Rather than entertain the question, I'll simply state that both actions are unethical and I don't support either.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 I respect your word sir. My question was not to justify one aspect of my question at all. My original response was not what I meant to say. What I do want to say is that your 110% right. All day I have thought it over and there is no justification for either case. Both are like you said, unethical. A 243 IS a poor choice for elk and moose size game. And though people use them they’re doing it at their own risk. I’m sorry if my question came off on the wrong foot I wouldn’t try to deceive you or trick you to answer my question. I feel foolish for asking but with life there is trial and error. Thank you for speaking the truth and correcting me. Again I’ve mentioned this before but that’s why people like you really should consider preserving such knowledge and understanding. Your videos will always be an option but you sir can write a book about all the experience you have and in my humble opinion I’d rank you as high as any hunting writer in history. Your ethics of hunting knowledge of what it truly means to hunt. It’s amazing sir. I sure hope you know that I am young and have a ways to go to learn how to be the best hunter I can be. God bless sir. Your feedback is very much appreciated
I think having a magnum cartridge is definitely better than not having enough power to get the job done, it’s not fear it’s insurance. I haven’t gotten a chance to do reel it in myself but I’ve always thought it would be good to have something like a 300 WinMag or 338 WinMag and perhaps carry three different loads, something let’s the full rounds potential, a moderate powered example and a low powered example. 10 rounds of each type of ammo all out of the same weapon allowing you as much or as little power as you need for the hunt.
What are you hunting where a 30-06 lacks power and you need a 300mag? Also, carrying three different loads in the field would require you to re-zero your scope every time you changed ammo; not a good idea.
7mm mag bud ,you know what I'm saying. You can load it down very easy 270 speed,then again most reloading data is pretty conservative. So it can be hot doged pretty easy.
No No No...... You know as well as me capacity is king. With that said ,yes I'm sure any animal harvested is not gonna know the difference,and will achieve the same results with both cartridges very easily. I was just pointing out that as a handloader ,you can have whatever cake you want ,even with magnum rounds. By the way keep the video coming.👍
I'll stick with my .300 Win. Mag.! For 50 years, she has been launching 165 and 168 grain hunting bullets at 3350 fps and making high lung shots on some big white tails and big mule deer and a fair number of good size black bear! Never had to go looking for a one of those and never destroyed an ounce of meat... Jack O'Connor was right about shot placement decades ago. 1500 fpe used to be what we considered as the minimum energy for big game hunting until the new "woke" hunting crowd came along and changed the actual laws of physics into pipe dreams and rainbow colored smoke...
With regards to the "new cartridges just repackage old" statement; yes, no new ballistic performance can be invented, but what can be invented is longer lasting brass, more consistent chambering, better bullets etc. So as those technologies advance, newer cartridges must be made to take full advantage of them. 6.5x47 Lapua is for all intents and purposes ballistically identical to 6.5x55 Swedish, yet it uses significantly less powder, can shoot longer bullets, can be reloaded an absurd number of times, is more inherently accurate etc.
And what does this have to do with standard vs magnum cartridges for hunting within MPBR? Does a 30 Nosler give better brass life, powder expenses, and shoot better bullets than a 30-06? Do they kill the same animals within MPBR? That was the theme of this video. Manufactures aren't trying to make better hunting cartridges or bullets; they are trying to convince you to buy a new rifle and ammo by tricking you into believing that they kill better by going faster or shooting Higher BC bullets. Many new bullets are actually downgrades for hunting (ELD), and most of these new cartridges induce more recoil, powder expenses, and barrel wear than the cartridges they were intended to replace. Because these "new magnums" aren't selling particularly well, the trend will inevitably shift back to softer shooting cartridges, like it always does. Old is New once again.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 Nothing, it's purely about the general statement that nothing is new. To be more on topic, my view on magnums is that I can't envision me needing one. I like the short actions, the "less is more" mindset. I decided not to leave a comment simply saying that.
No rules. In Latin, "Magnum" means "better". In that regard, most consider magnums to be faster offerings than their standard brethren. But the term is loosely used, as the 220 Swift is a true Magnum, but the WSSM's are not magnums at all.
Thanks for the great video Desert Dog, i'm new in the reloading world and still have a lot to learn, what would your recommendation be for powder to reload a magnum cartridge say like for the 375 H&H Magnum shooting a 300gr Barns TSX bullet
DO NOT USE RETUMBO as Andre recommended!!!! That is bad advise. Retumbo is one of the slowest burning powders available, and is WAYYYYY too slow for the old H&H. The medium-fast rifle powders like 4895, 4064, RL15, and Varget are best for the 375 H&H; and give optimum velocity without a highly compressed load. I like H4895 for the 250gr TTSX, and IMR4064 for the 300gr TSX.
DD is right. I was thinking more in terms of 338 Lapua magnum where the case capacity is way larger and you can pack 100 grains of powder for a 300 gr projectile . 375 HH has much less case capacity, hence faster burning powder to accelerate a 300 gr bullet. Sorry guys
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 thank you very much for the advice luckily i haven't bought any powder yet, was waiting to see your advice, again thank u for your great videos and advise
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 You know. Most hunters never train for that shot. They practice from a solid bench. Never from a prone, standing, propped, sitting or kneeling position. If they're hunting from an elevated blind they've another sturdy rest and the other positions don't apply. Randy Newberg states that a poor shot with a magnum caliber won't bring down the game any more than a poor shot from a standard caliber.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 yes it does and thats my interest is a budget bolt gun to beat armor past my ar15s capabilities i do other shooting too but thats my focus at the moment
Another great topic Desert Dog! I am 67 now and have been hunting big game for 55 years. As a hobby I collected and used a wide variety of rifles and calibers. I have used the 338 Win Mag, the 300 Win Mag, the 300 Wby Mag, the 270 Wby Mag, the 257 Wby Mag, the 7 mm Rem Mag, the 270 Win, the 6mm Rem, the 243 Win, the 3006 Springfield and the 308 Win…….. In my safe now you will only find the 3006 Springfield and the 308 WINCHESTER………………..the other calibers are gone……………..
🤠 Ronbo (Montana Mountain Man) - Wisdom comes with age and experience! I couldn't agree with you more (except about the 270 Winchester - though my backup rifle is a 30-06)! Perhaps a 308 Winchester will also soon be in my future? It was the only big game caliber that consistently had Ammunition on the shelf throughout the "Ammunition Crisis", one that is good on barrel life, pleasant to shoot, and capable of taking any species I hunt without destroying much meat! But, my Grandfather use to call Magnums ("Manglums")! And while bonded bullets and solid copper bullets are replacing the old cup and draw bullets (that often blew apart), I still couldn't agree with him more! Your caliber choices are good ones and your "lessons learned" - timeless!
@@ronlowney4700 if you are considering a .308, look at the 7mm-08! I love mine and it works so great for deer and black bear sized game. I am really happy with the performance with the 150 gr. TSX and the 139 gr. LRX.
🤠 Ronbo (Montana Mountain Man) - They are both fine calibers, no doubt! I hunted with someone who had a 7mm-08 about 30 years ago and found it very pleasant to shoot and easy to pack and hunt with such a short barrel! However, since the "Ammunition Crisis" began, the 0.308 Ammunition and componants have always on the shelf - but not the 7mm-08! Because I have both a 30-06 Springfield and a 270 Winchester, it is not like I need another gun! But, as I get older, the 0.308 and 7mm-08 would be better options (due to lighter recoil than the 30-06 and I could get it in a much lighter rifle and in a Sako Rifle - my favorite)! Now, while the 7mm-08 would have less of a kick, the 308 would be better when I hunt for elk in the timber! I cold load it up with a nice 200 grain Swift A-Frame bullet for elk! When hunting open country, I would still use my 270 Winchester for longer shots! Both the 270 and 308 have about the same recoil! I am still torn, because I've wanted that 7mm-08 for along time now, but have put it off for other purchases! I am still torn on this purchase and am still contemplating what to do next? Hummm...🤷♂️
@@ronlowney4700 Well I think you should go with the 308……. Does everything the 7mm-08 does out to 400 yards… We should not be shooting past this distance, to many variables to guarantee a sure one shot kill,in my opinion……. Plus loaded ammo available for 308……. Loading the 200 grain bullet would give very slow velocity in the 308 because the bullet takes up so much space……. Good luck…
But, in thick timber, my shots would not be over 100 yards!
Hey DD, could you do a video about shot placement? I've heard lots of things about the high lung shot, shoulder shots, spine shots, the neck shot, and ect
In my experience if you take shoulder shots, a high shoulder shot will likely drop the animal in its tracks or make it expire quickly. It makes sense to me to assume that the closer proximity to the spine can jolt the nerves system and cause the animal to drop. I have also observed more rapid blood loss when the veins and arteries above the heart are severed the lungs will also completely fill with blood and not partially as with lower lung shots. I would also assume that if the arteries above the heart are severed the haert will pump all the blood out of the body rendering muscles without oxygen. My first two antelope were dead centre heart shots that exploded the hearts yet the animals ran almost 100 meteres (Impala and Springbok) last year I had to take a very quick shot on a waterbuck and it was a low shoulder shot rupturing the heart yet it ran more than 100 yards, previous waterbuck that I had taken were high shoulder shots and they never made it 10 yards.
Perhaps in the future. Its a balancing act for hunters between the safe shot that preserves meat, vs a chance at an instant drop but losing some if the most delicious morsels. Shot angle and anatomy play a crucial role too. It's a complex subject that is very much situational. I use high shoulder, heart/lung, and neck shots; but only on the right animals in the right circumstances. Shot placement is NOT a "one size fits all" concept.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 ditto DD! Like bears! No one purposely aims middle of the middle on deer... Unless on rage broadhead commercials...
I think its all about preference.
60 and still love my magnum's
Another great video. No need for a magnum as long as the 30-06 is still around. I've hunted for a long time and it took me a long time to understand how great it really is and now it's what I use on nearly every hunt.
I agree with you. Today for most of us, the 30.06 is the magnum version of the .308 Win.
Thank you i got into an argument with someone saying they hunt 800 yards with a 25-06 i said post the footage as thats not hunting but most cant actually hunt anymore
Great video. You made an excellent point on cup and core projectiles versus monolithic projectiles and velocity. At longer ranges monolithic projectiles are harder to open up compared to the damage a cup and core projectile can do. Thanks for sharing.
I used to hunt mule deer with my 7mm. When I could afford to buy a new rifle, I bought the 270. My marksmanship improved greatly. There’s no reason to hunt deer with a seven MM, although I never ruined any meat on any deer with a 7 mm magnum. Because I am a decent shot. I just noticed that my groups got better at the gun range once I started shooting the 270. It’s also quite a bit lighter. I keep my seven MM because it was my first rifle and still a great rifle for elk and bear. But as for deer, I only use my 270 now. There’s just no reason when the longest shot I’ve ever taken at a deer was 325 yards. The other 13 deer have been less than 250 yards.
🤠 RONBO (Montana Mountain Man) - You could do a series on this topic alone and only scratch the surface! Almost every state has deer (most of which can be killed with just about any caliber) and most Western States have elk! Pretty much all other species require a special (unguarenteed) "draw tag", rather than an "over the counter tag" for every other horned and antlered animal! Yes, their are predators, pigs, gophers and other critters one may shoot! But, let's be honest, most of us on these "hunting channels" always discuss/debate the "best elk rifle" - that will, most often, also be useful for deer and other smaller critters (like antelope)! Most also want, "one gun to do it all" - a big ask! But, in my state - deer, elk, and antelope season overlap - so I am usually hunting multiple species at the same time and can only pack one gun! When trying to "Justify" the need for a "Magnum Caliber", some will also say they need a Magnum, because "Bear Country is Elk Country", without realizing that most bears are already hibernating by the time elk hunting rifle season is underway! So, how much gun is enough to kill the animal - without wasting (blood shot) meat, without having to track it for miles, at the terrain (distance to be shot), and weather conditions (wind and temperature shifts) you might encounter? It varies, no doubt! But experience is the best teacher and it is beneficial to learn from others mistakes, before making your own! So, with that, I'll share what I know! Having owned multiple "Big Magnums" and having shot many others, "they are not necessary in order to kill an elk"! Nor, "does it guarantee you'll kill one any faster"! Do you disagree? Then read on! I'll tell you that it all primarily comes down to good shot placement (assisted by practice of shooting and ensuring your rifle is sighted in correctly); shooting them at ethical hunting distances (this depends on the wind and it is usually blowing where I hunt); and choosing a good bullet (one that your rifle will shoot, that will mushroom as it dumps its energy in the animal, and will still exit the elk); and choosing a temperature stable powder that provides the best accuracy (over the highest velocity one) for shot consistency (if you are reloading)! It is that simple! Once the bullet leaves the elk, any excess energy that remains provides no benefit to killing the elk - period! Many prefer a bullet that stops on the back side of the hide (so all the energy is dumped into the elk), but I like an exit wound to collapse the lungs quicker! So, what caliber do I like best? ...My caliber of choice is the 270 Winchester (and my backup is a 30-06)! If you think that is too small, just know that my Grandfather's 270 Winchester killed hundreds of elk with that caliber (as he worked on the firing lines near Yellowstone Park, back in the day); three record book moose, one record book bison, one record book sheep, two record class goats, bears, etc...! If the 270 Winchester can kill that many elk, moose, bison, grizzly bears, etc...then you'll have a hard time convincing me that you need anything "bigger"! If your worried about bears, or any other critter attacking you, then just buy some damn bear spray! It's proven effective, just like the 270 Winchester! 😃
You said everything!!.. Fear of the unknown and "Macho Man" thing...
Tribute to the old 30-06..another great video.
Thanks for the great video DD. My only interest in magnums was the stories of hunting big bears and dangerous African game with them. I was a bowhunter, disabled now, but did take 3 whitetails with rifles. I hunted from the ground, and the shots were 15, 10, and 42 yards. The first two fell to 30-30s and the "long shot" was a .270 Win. Iron sights. All with Remington CoreLokt soft points. No tracking needed, dropped right there. The longest shot I might have encountered where I hunted would have been about 100 yards. I'd always wanted to go out west for mule deer and elk, but never made it. Thinking I could've just scoped up the .270 and it would be all I'd need.
Leaving the Nostalgia and romance aside, I think in those older days, the gunpowder was just different. If you look at the design of the sig fury .277 cartridge case with the steel bottom, suddenly higher pressure are possible. So now that opens a new door to smaller but more powerful cartridges where SD is still maintained.
Love my 7mm magnum.
Working for me for 34 years.
Absolutely love it.
Have a 30-06 as my back up but never hv needed it.😁👍👍👍
100% Correct. Some old cartridges, loaded with modern bullets and propellants, are just great and perform extremely well compared to modern ones. The most important factor in hunting performance of ANY caliber ever designed is still where you put the bullet...
My favorite magnum is the .357 lever action.
Truthfully for me as I am getting older, I love those magnum especially 7 rem mag. I own 2 of them. But to me the 308 does what they did specifically now that IAM older and eye sight is limited. It's all about shot replacement to me. Love you're show's
A great video Desert Dog! As a broken down retired veteran my legs don’t work like they used to and being as I’m a custom gunsmith/gun engraver I build my own hunting rifles. That being said I do have a .300 RUM I use for elk solely because where I hunt elk I need that extra range but only out to 600 or 700 yards. Under that range I use a .300 Win Mag and my still hunting rifle is a .35 Whelen. I can still still hunt in the mountains which is great and my preferred method of hunting. I can’t hike long distances anymore because of PAD but I can find a position to shoot at longer ranges. I choose my rifle by the type of hunting I’ll be doing that day. I’m really enjoying your common sense videos and the truthful information contained therein. There is so much hype in the gun and ammo industries these days that it makes my head hurt. So much bullshit wrapped up around the Hornady cartridges (6.5 Creedmore to the PRC’s) and their bullets that I refuse to even purchase ANY of their products.
Keep up the great work and the great content.
To me, magnums was designed to shoot the extra heavy bullets of the specific calibre. This was valid in the cup and core era. With the "new" mono and bonded bullets, magnums are no longer needed.
Again an honest and humble presentation from DD! I wish had a reason for a magnum cartridge. It's just getting a heavier bullet farther down range. If I ever chose a magnum cartridge it would be a high BC bullet, otherwise my .308 can kill everything I'm able to hunt. My friends who shoot magnums have one thing in common, measuring man parts, lol! You know the type. Thanks again for your refreshing perspective.
Love the insight and the logic.
As always a first class missive on the subject. Your are my personal favorite Love the way you do your videos and lay out information for us. You illustrated why recently went with another 30 06 for my upcoming coastal Blackbear hunt instead of taking my 300 Weatherby for this trip
Thanks for the reinforcement 😃
DD, Having hunted since the 70's, my experience tells me that virtually all calibers perform the same at less than 250yds. A hunter's shot placement is far more important than using the latest "magnum".
Of course, some guys are recoil lovers so I recommend the 458Lott for their next whitetail adventure, LOL!
Great video, thanks for posting.
Take care and be well!
I used a 450-400 NE on antelope and a 375 H&H on a mule deer doe, not because I "love" recoil, but because I wanted to hunt with the rifles and those were the tags I had. My "recommended" calibers for those animals are much smaller. Use what you want as long as it is at least adequate, and you can shoot it accurately.
My two older brothers have used the 300 Winchester Mag for deer for awhile. When I ask why??
They both say the same thing..
I never had to track a deer that I shot with a 300!
Me.. I'll stick with the 7mm-08 Remington.. I never had to track more than thirty yards!
Love my 7mm-08 for deer! Just works. Can’t attest to anything larger than a whitetail but one can dream.
Nothing wrong with the 7mm08 it’s a great round and does everything I need it to do I will never part with my Sako 85 in 7mm08 it’s a awesome gun cheers Yogi Australia 🇦🇺 🤙🤙
@@brettstewart6036 Sako is definitely a dream rifle for myself.
I have a Tikka T3x Hunter chambered in the 7mm-08 Remington.. and it just happens to be my most accurate firearm. I get .55 inches at 100 yards with Winchester 140 grain ballistic tips.. and .67 inches at 100 yards with Norma Whitetail Ammunition.
Actually harvested a big bodied pennsylvania eight point back in November with this rifle.
@@bowhunterd2407 I'm the same.. I only hunt deer and black bear with mine. I'm more of a incidental bear hunter. Black bear runs into deer season here in Pennsylvania.
@@blackie1of4 how often can you get a bear tag in Pennsylvania? Every year? Here in Michigan it’s generally 3-5 years between tags.
I would suggest that standard cartridges like the 06 are actually pretty magnum to start with.
In the Anglosphere of cartridges, the military loaded 303 is pretty much standard. It may not be your favourite cartridge, but it is a classic 30 caliber that has worked on everything from elephant ivory exploitation, to a decade of world wars. Both the Germans, and the Americans fielded heavier recoiling, and presumed superior cartridges, notwithstanding that after action reports showed most effective shooting was at a much closer range than these cartridges were developed for. Consider the ground breaking Carcano with it's fixed sights, or the the White Death whose sniping exploits were mostly short range with iron sights; not to mention the post war move to assault rifles with much lighter classes of cartridges. Between the 30 caliber cartridges the case capacity of the 30-06 is 31% larger than the 303.
When you drop down to the 270, as an example, you are certainly in the range of magnum, beltless performance, in practice, if not definition. You can drive 270 bullets faster, but whether it makes much sense is another mater. The ratio of bullet weight to case capacity for 303 ball is 3.8, in sporting dress it is 3.2. With the 270 the ratio is 2.1 for typical bullets. Though it can be as high as 1.5. These are just examples, as actual loads and propellants used in cordite age 303, to modern day handloads are not comparable. But the 06 does have a decent capacity case.
The truth has been spoken..at the ranges Im willing to shoot at the 30.06 and the 35 whelen will take anything in North America, brown bear and moose included
100% True. I've dropped one-ton Bison with my Whelen.
Every time I find myself seeking some new craze caliber and wonder why i need and this and that and so many vlogs steering me to this or that new fab…….aaahhhh what to do. Come to DD’s page and he can put me back into reality that my ought six, .308 and 7-08 are plenty to play with. In Canada here I always said stay within the true 5 which I say are 300 WM, 7mm RM, .30-06, .308 and .270. Theses 5 for all around game and ammo availability. Yes a couple others but these 5 are the main ones to revolve around. Great vid, love this sport! Cheers everyone.
I think that the 300 H&H is the greatest cartridge invented besides the 30-06 for hunting most big game in North America I like the old 270 Winchester also but to push a 180 grain bullet harder the 300 H&H is a very fine cartridge
Great video. I have never been a fan of, nor understood the justification for most hunters choosing a magnum cartridge. In my opinion, there is nothing on the North American continent that the 30-06 can't take care of. The .243 Winchester also makes a fabulous deer rifle having less felt recoil but still offers plenty of FPE upon impact. One final point about reloading magnum rifle cartridges in our current state of the industry, try and find large rifle magnum primers. They are impossible to get. Standard large rifle primers have shown up a handful of times though. Another plus for the 30-06 or .308.
I'd like your opinion on The Moose hunting style that was passed down through generations. Using campfire smoke to kill human was taught to us, also vocally calling them in range with birch bark call.
My cousin and I sit in 300 year old treestand blinds that are about 100 long paces from each other. The one who calls in the bull takes it out, while the other in the blind uses the Moose Paddles to turn its attention towards when in range for a good headshot.
If my cousin fills his tag and mine in 1 year I really don't mind just as long as we come home with our quota, and continue to hunt till we do so.
2022 Holitna hunt, 5 cow Moose came out of the other side of the field. Five mins later the biggest monster Bull ive seen in years with 6 brow tines each side came out and I called it into within 30 long paces. I dumped my mag of Partition 180s and loaded 220 Partitions outta my pack.
I noticed a 3 spike off to the left at 45 to 50... it stopped at the salt pile and looked towards the other blind... I sent one over to him and he dropped in his tracks.
My cousin bewildered didn't know what the hell and why did that bigger one not drop.... he didn't notice the 3 spike drop and was tunneled into the 6 brow tine bull. Swearing up a big fuss he said WTF you let that once in a lifetime go for this one, I said yup! quota met! He finally understood why I let the Monster go with those 5 females😂 looked 70" or better!
Great commentary DD. As always!
Personally, I love magnum cartridges if only for when I squeeze off that first shot at the range, and the guy next to me looks at me like my nose is on backwards and yells out, "what the hell's wrong with you!" and when he does, it isn't even in the form of a question.
If I’m being honest, I’m a pretty mediocre shot. 250 yards is the absolute maximum I should ever attempt a shot in an ethical hunting situation. The extra mbpr doesn’t buy me anything I should be using. Better shots than me? Maybe they can get some advantage. But 243 or 30-06 is plenty in my situation. I watched a guy beat the hell out of himself getting familiar with a 300 prc mountain rifle he had just picked up the last time I was at the range.
I do enjoy shooting a higher recoil cartridge (45-70), but it better be a darn good fitting rifle for it to be fun. Since it has the opposite ballistics of the magnum cartridges, I just shorten up my range a bit more. That’s ok, just a different challenge (and uniquely fun because of it). If all I wanted was meat then the local grocery store is way cheaper and more efficient than the multitude of costs associated with trying to hunt big game.
Eric most of us are like you. The problem is most wont admit it. 250 yards to me is a long poke!
Great Show.
Great video as always. Every september im always amused/sad to see guys at the local range blasting away with their “flinch factories”. I remember when the .338 lapua was hot for a while when everyone wanted to be like Chris Kyle. It was rare to see someone shooting one of them well enough that Id want to hunt with or guide for them. Best wishes-
Am looking forward to growing old with a.22WMR then! (Magnum - no recoil). I like the honesty about these presentations. I think you are spot-on when describing uncertainty as a driver for Magnum use.. And then there are hunters who just like to be recoil junkies just in case grizzly Adams isn't there to talk bear and save the day without pulling a trigger on that raccoon hunt.
Glad you bought up barrel life. Big consideration.
Great commentary!
Never owned a magnum. Never will. 30-06 more than adequate. I dropped a grizzly with a '06 stoked with 180 ROUND NOSE. Scary accurate and flatter shooting than given credit for.
Most overrated is the 7mm Rem. Magnum. An excellent cartridge, but in all practical terms no better than the '06.
If I had to have a magnum it would be a 338 or a 375. I had a particular liking for the 8mm Rem. Mag. when it first came out in '79.
I'll stick with the '06, thank you very much.
With new cartridges the Ammo companies are reinventing the wheel. These are exercises in marketing.
Magnum, one of Derek Zoolander’s looks!
Exactly the fear of unknown is the main reason, and I actually like a bit of recoil (not punishing recoil) it makes shooting for me more fun in a way and teaches beter shooting discipline en body position
There is just something about the feel about 300 wm and 7mm rem mag thats to me
Good video as always thanks
I like the 280 AI because it shoots 7mm bullets fast enough and can chamber more rounds than a magnum version.
That is a fantastic cartridge.
Great presentation and some information I didn't know. Thanks for the video 👍👍
great video brother. keep up the good work 👍
For me it's about versatility. Sometimes you need that insurance policy as you said. Often times you don't. If you hand load you can load that magnum down to something more standard and manageable, which is what I do if Im going after Whitetails. If I'm after bigger critters at extended ranges, I like having the option of a heavy for caliber bullet with a flat trajectory with ample kinetic energy. It's a similar concept of having a shotgun that's capable of running 3" and 3.5" but can also run regular 2.75" I like 7mm Rem mag. With 168 and 175's I don't notice much more recoil than a 180gr 30-06. If I load it down with a 140gr to 2800fps it's like shooting a 7mm-08 or 7x57mm.
I added your stack of books to my "to buy" list!
those are some good ones!
Your comments are spot on. I hear all kinds of ignorance and machismo at work (cabelas). I value your comments and experience.
Important to note that a lot of people seem to go bigger due to a lack of skill. Their mindset is if they make a poor shot, the magnums will allow a larger margin of error. I always hated that style of thinking but I see a lot of people who live by it.
I also hate that logic. Magnums do have the benefit of delivering more energy to the target, but it's still a moot point without a precise shot. Energy won't compensate for bad shot placement.
Well done video i just wish you upload more often i really enjoy watching your videos i watch your channel all the way from the Arab world
I am a big advocate of the 7mm rem mag ! but after my 36 years of hunting I would take my trusty 30 06 over the 7 mm mag any day !
Ill take the 30-06 over that 7mag anyday everyday. Esp my old mans long barrel 1917 30-06, i believe it has a 28 inch barrel.
But i like both the 7mm an 30-06. I also like the 220 grain soft point corelokt remingtons, an federal soft point 220 grain in 30-06. A bunch of stopping power esp in my dads long barrel 30-06.
@@edwardabrahamiii3742 The power of those 220-grainers in 30 caliber is lost on modern hunters. People these days are too focused on velocity.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 Oh i love them 220 grain soft point core lokt bullets my old man taught me to shoot them big animals no further then 100 yards away from the rivers an creeks as long as the boat can make it to the animal thats knocked down
IMO Barnes LRX or TTSX bullets launched from magnum cartridges are an ideal choice for hunting large bull elk and bull moose in diverse conditions up here in Northern Canada. This combination provides more shot opportunities… Shoulder shots and quartering shots are more feasible and less risky. The probability of achieving an exit wound with a strong blood trail is increased. For those follow up to anchor shots on moving animals at any angle, penetration performance is vital. The cost to achieve these benefits is increased recoil for sure but I consider it to be a good return on investment… especially when it’s something like a 1200lb bull moose that took 5 years of draws to get a tag for. These chances are arguably priceless.
For this job I am a fan of the 300WSM with 175gr LRX bullets at ~3050fps MV.
The wizzum gets this done with less powder than the winmag which is pretty cool but component and ammo availability for the winmag is much better which is super cool.
Cheers!
Some of them are copies of older ones like 7mmRem - .275HH Mag
9,3x70 DWM - .375 RUM
.333 Jeffery - .338 Win Mag
.28 Nosler- 7x66 SeVH
Sure do love my .280 Remington, it’s bad medicine for Caribou.
great cartridge
Very good points. A 30-06 can do just about what ever you need in North America.
I have a 17 rem mag... it's so powerful... it won't even pass thru a yote. Hard to find the entrance wound, but it turns the insides to guts. 20 grains at 4400 does strange things.
If your super comfortable with that round, you can take down any animal land animal with that round. Shoot a moose under the ear itll drop like a sack of potatoes. Right where it stands.
Seems like the 30-06 is really all you need. Depending on bullet construction, there really isn't anything you can't ethically harvest in North America. With ballistics similar to a 7mmRM and a larger diameter, why take on the added expense and recoil of the magnum cartridges?
I have used a 308 for almost 40 years. I reload my own ammo. I have never lost game with my rifle or reloads. I will stick with my 308.
I have spent a life time hunting the USA and I am glad we have so many options from .17s threw 50 BMGs. Being under gunned is not good.
In my case, it's match the cartridge to the topical hunting conditions, game size and expected distance to target. I have never been let down by the saying " I'd rather have too much than not enough". However the newer efficient cartridges do have merit.
That was brillant, thank you!
Stop making so much sense Dog! You might actually educate the ignorant, and who wants that?! ;-)
Thanks for a seriously awesome presentation.
I wonder why Winchester didn't call the .220 Swift a "magnum"? It was in the same timeframe as renaming the Super 30 and the .375 H&H Belted Express. Great vid, Desert.
I think putting "Swift" in the name was enough, lol. Should have been called "220 Barrel Wrecker". I read stories from writers in the 40s who experienced blown-out throats in as little as 300 rounds! On the other end of the spectrum, you have the WSSM cartridges, which aren't magnums at all.
Hi.
Love your work. Keep it up!
But there is also the point of leadfree bullets and shorter barrels/moderators.
Those bullets need to be over 600m/s or 1800f/s to expand. I believe with leadfree bullets and moderators there will be a shift to higher speed cartridges.
Best from Norway.
For all running games/ battue style of hunting at close range, it is best to be equipped with a magnum: it gives you a margin of errors as shot placement tend to be less accurate.
Magnums will not compensate for bad shot placement. Failing to hit vitals with a 458 lott is worse than hitting vitals with a 22 mag.
DD didn't mention the penalty of carrying a heavier magnum rifle in the scrub plus larger scope for longer shots, the extra pounds make a difference after a short time of lugging it. But they are awesome to shoot the big fire stick nonetheless
100% on point!!
My view of magnums is to drive heavier bullets at 30-06 velocities, or the very heavy bullets for dangerous game.
What I've been able to determine on rifle cartridges, Magnum or otherwise and guns in general IS ....
..... that a firearm/ ammo manufacturer knows that they're probably N0T going to sell you another one of something that you already have !
Thanks DD for cutting through the BS, hydrostatic shock creates meat damage. Great content sir.
Rapid energy dump or bullet fragmentation creates meat damage. Hydrostatic shock might not destroy anything, and if it does factor in, effects to the central nervous system are small and unpredictable.
Really good video!
Excited for this, I’m contemplating a 30 cal magnum.
What are people even doing out in the field that they need more than a .30-06? I gotta greatly suffer the shooter next to me at the range with an aggressive muzzle brake because they can't handle their magnum rifle.
My old neighbour used to always tell me "Magnum Rifles" are just for poor hunters, that cant get close enough !!
Do I need a 300 Weatherby mag for what I hunt? Nope. FWIW I don't hunt deer with my 300 WBY. I have a 270 Winchester for that. The reason I got a Weatherby? I enjoy the velocity and the kick. I can shoot a 180 gr TTSX 3300 FPS. I've also got a 130 TTSX shooting MOA going 3750 FPS. Now I don't plan to hunt with the 130 or shoot it a lot. But it's still fun. The great thing about America is we have plenty of cartridge choices. Thanks for the video
This. Was. Or...is. great.... it. Reminds. Me. Of. The. Hornaday.. lite. Magnum. Adds... and. Of. Coarse. We. Want. A. New. Gun. To. Chamber. Our. New. Ammo. In.... and. Another. Good. Point. On. Magnumitis... how. Many. Hunter.s Take. Time. To. Proof. The. Difference. To. Themselves.... and. Understand...the. Magnum. Part...May. Be. For. The. Insurance. Of. Having. Enough. Foot. Pounds. For. The. Largest. Animal. At. Close. Range....great. video... good. Use. Of. Logic. Reason. And. Practical... thinking.... have. A. Nice. Day...
Sounds like non magnum cartridges are more efficient than their magnum counterparts
That is generally true.
Soooooo spot on DD! Manufacturers have to survive. They hype, writers hype and long range shows hype. Customers fall prey and want to be heros in the field with no concept of how to do those things but will buy and try. Sad. Our grandpa's guns are better guns due to modern ammo Manufacturers, powders and bullets. The essence of hunting has been lost. I only watch Meateater and subscribe to people with your ethics and philosophy.
I’ve killed 6 bull moose, using a 7 Mag, .30-06, and a .264. I never thought I needed a .300 or a .338, until my guide told me this story. He was guiding a client in 2019. An average bull appeared at 150 yards, shook his head, and charged. The hunter shot him in the chest once, twice, then a third time, with his .300 Win Mag. The bull fell 30 yards before trampling the hunter. Would my ‘06 have dropped him in time? All I know, is that I’d rather have a .300 in a case like this. But I still haven’t bought one. I’ll be back in Canada this year, but without a .300…maybe.
With the same bullet of the same weight, the 30-06 and the 300win would have done the same; but perhaps follow-up shots would have been faster with the 06? FYI, I use my 35 Whelen AI for moose.
Did you ask him what type of bullet he was using? The story sounds like "bull" to me, but occasionally, strange things happen! That being said, the 300 WM and the 30-06 SP really aren't that far apart in performance! If your guide is convincing you that elk may attack you, and you need something bigger than a 30-06 - find another guide! Or go buy some bear spray - it's proven effective on "man eaters" like grizzlies and will work wonders on "smaller herbivores" like elk! 🤣
So these days, we have lasers, and I don't know why maximum point blank range is a big deal any more. For one thing, it isn't entirely accurate. Ross Seyfried recommended verifying all the supposed points of impact, which is tough to do, if you don't have access to a properly set up range out to 300+ yards. He said that in his guiding career fictional zeros were a major cause of poor rifle marksmanship, computer printouts are not the same thing as verified zeros. Maximum point blank range is a concept for minimizing the need for holdover, but it has two problems: People assume it means you can sight at 100 yards and not check the other zeros. And they forget it is based on the idea of very good field accuracy. It falls apart if you shoot 3 inch groups. Then you also have to know what 350 yards is. The chart only works if you know the max yardage, which is beyond most people's ability.
Though, you can work with the idea if you:
1) Tighten the window, say to 6 inches. Then you probably will fall into the chart. But this is basically the same thing as saying you will cut 100 yards off your range, which certainly will give better results than trying to press for longer distances.
2) Use a little holdover. Assume your chart says, as the above that the 300 mag reduces your drop by 1 inch at 350. Surely you can determine when your beyond the halfway point of your ark, and the bullet is on the downward path. You don't have to know precisely. All you have to know is you are not shooting a short range. At that point hold high 1 inch, ish, and you gained everything the 300 mag had to offer.
3) Use a laser every time the target is out there at max ethical range, and undisturbed.
At it's core, magnums are just marketing hype. As you say, the new magnums don't use the name, just as the new Bud Light doesn't rock rainbow cans any more. Cartridges should be assessed on their merits not their nomeclature.
Something like "endurance" sports will actually make you stronger, all equal. But enduring recoil will degrade hearing. It isn't something you can just gut it through.
Once a person starts to think they should get their next custom rifle with a muzzle brake, they should just admit they have exceeded their recoil tolerance.
Sensei Don Heath argued that you shouldn't use a rifle you didn't feel your could run 30 rounds through, as he had often encountered either terrorists, or poachers in the bush of Africa. We aren't there yet, but we could be soon enough. So muzzle brakes and magnums are out.
Where I live, extremely short barrels are legal and people are nutty about them. Even with 308s, most of the burn is in the air. Then you throw in muzzle brakes, and heaven forbid, magnums. Nasty.
I think magnums are largely preferred by herd mentality hunters (trajectory magnums). I bow hunt and I don't care if I don't get an animal because it is 370 yards away, not 350. It doesn't hold up particularly well either way. But if my guide and trackers worked hard all week to put me on a great animal and I can't do my part, and all I would have had to do was shoot a bean pole magnum, that is a concern. One doesn't want to let others down. But by myself, it is my hunt, my rules.
I like my 7mm mags.with 140 weight bullets recoil is not harsh, even a 160 bullet in a nine lb gun is easy to shoot.
With handloading the 7mm mag is a versatile cartridge. Load light for low recoil.Load heavy for max range and performance.
@@theoutdoorsmantimg3450 It can take advantage of about half the bullet-weight range of the 30-06 with the factory twist rate, and wastes a LOT of powder for reduced loads (and reduced loads usually lack accuracy with the 7mmRM case). I've never considered it to be very versatile.
243 winchester for the win baby
I don't believe in magnums and never needed one!
If you need more gun I suggest you go up in caliber, more importantly, you need to practice your shooting for better shot placement.
What do I have and suggest you ask? (12 gauge shotgun, .22lr, 25-06 w/ 100 grain bullet, .270 w/ 140 grain, 30-06 pushing 180 gr).
Experience? (60 years of shooting, hunting, military etc.)
Magnums are ok standing in the field but in a lightweight hunting riffle on a bench ouch it takes the fun out of target shooting
I've been thinking of getting a new rifle " 6.8 western")magnumish) but I haven't seen a real reason to not continue using my 30.06 everything that gets hit by the old 06 still dies so I don't really think I need one..🤷🏼♂️
Especially since your 30-06 shoots the same weight bullets at the same velocity, with less recoil.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 exactly plus I know and understand the way my rifle is.
They jst work and perform big time.
Real men and ethical hunters use Magnum caliber bullets. 😁❤👍👍👍
So what rifle and cartridge do you use on mature (big) elk?
Usually my 35 Whelen AI.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 Wow, very cool! I've watch that 35 Whelen video 5 times. Now I'm going to watch it again.
Thanks 👍
Hey desert dog, I got a good question that might twist your brain a bit. With today’s long range target shooting at animals and how many people are following that trend. What do you consider to be more ethical. Hunting game with a less than ideal caliber for a species of game( like going moose hunting with a 25-06), or shooting an elk at 900 yards with a 300 weatherby? For me. Today’s modern bullets can really make a cartridge like the 25-06 punch above it’s weight. And again with modern bullets shots are easier to take at longer ranges. But. What’s more ethical? For decades many hunters have chosen lighter recoil cartridges for smaller framed hunters. Just recently the long range hunting craze has begun. For me. I consider the latter to be more ethical. A 25 26 and 27 caliber with a well constructed bullet can really be an eye opener. I’m no fan of the lr craze and never will frankly
In the world of logic, a question like this would be considered a "false dilemma" (a fallacy). A philosopher might consider your question a "Hobson's Choice". It's like saying; "what's more ethical, rape or attempted murder". Rather than entertain the question, I'll simply state that both actions are unethical and I don't support either.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 I respect your word sir. My question was not to justify one aspect of my question at all. My original response was not what I meant to say. What I do want to say is that your 110% right. All day I have thought it over and there is no justification for either case. Both are like you said, unethical. A 243 IS a poor choice for elk and moose size game. And though people use them they’re doing it at their own risk. I’m sorry if my question came off on the wrong foot I wouldn’t try to deceive you or trick you to answer my question. I feel foolish for asking but with life there is trial and error. Thank you for speaking the truth and correcting me. Again I’ve mentioned this before but that’s why people like you really should consider preserving such knowledge and understanding. Your videos will always be an option but you sir can write a book about all the experience you have and in my humble opinion I’d rank you as high as any hunting writer in history. Your ethics of hunting knowledge of what it truly means to hunt. It’s amazing sir. I sure hope you know that I am young and have a ways to go to learn how to be the best hunter I can be. God bless sir. Your feedback is very much appreciated
Knowledge speaks! Wisdom listens!
I think having a magnum cartridge is definitely better than not having enough power to get the job done, it’s not fear it’s insurance. I haven’t gotten a chance to do reel it in myself but I’ve always thought it would be good to have something like a 300 WinMag or 338 WinMag and perhaps carry three different loads, something let’s the full rounds potential, a moderate powered example and a low powered example. 10 rounds of each type of ammo all out of the same weapon allowing you as much or as little power as you need for the hunt.
What are you hunting where a 30-06 lacks power and you need a 300mag? Also, carrying three different loads in the field would require you to re-zero your scope every time you changed ammo; not a good idea.
7mm mag bud ,you know what I'm saying. You can load it down very easy 270 speed,then again most reloading data is pretty conservative. So it can be hot doged pretty easy.
But within MPBR, doesn't the 280 do the same thing with less powder and recoil?
No No No......
You know as well as me capacity is king.
With that said ,yes I'm sure any animal harvested is not gonna know the difference,and will achieve the same results with both cartridges very easily.
I was just pointing out that as a handloader ,you can have whatever cake you want ,even with magnum rounds. By the way keep the video coming.👍
I can get why a 200 grain 300 Win mag beats a 30/06. Or a 7mm Wby beats the 270 Win. If it’s worth the recoil penalty to the hunter.
I'll stick with my .300 Win. Mag.! For 50 years, she has been launching 165 and 168 grain hunting bullets at 3350 fps and making high lung shots on some big white tails and big mule deer and a fair number of good size black bear! Never had to go looking for a one of those and never destroyed an ounce of meat... Jack O'Connor was right about shot placement decades ago.
1500 fpe used to be what we considered as the minimum energy for big game hunting until the new "woke" hunting crowd came along and changed the actual laws of physics into pipe dreams and rainbow colored smoke...
Its funny people who complain about recoil i say slap a muzzle brake and be done lol i love my 30-378 weatherby magnum and every other one i own also
Muzzle brakes have no place in hunting. Shoot a 30-06, kill the same animals, and enjoy the experience without the need for a muzzle brake.
👏👏
Does the camera on your barrel effect accuracy? I've been considering getting one and I was curious.
With regards to the "new cartridges just repackage old" statement; yes, no new ballistic performance can be invented, but what can be invented is longer lasting brass, more consistent chambering, better bullets etc.
So as those technologies advance, newer cartridges must be made to take full advantage of them. 6.5x47 Lapua is for all intents and purposes ballistically identical to 6.5x55 Swedish, yet it uses significantly less powder, can shoot longer bullets, can be reloaded an absurd number of times, is more inherently accurate etc.
And what does this have to do with standard vs magnum cartridges for hunting within MPBR? Does a 30 Nosler give better brass life, powder expenses, and shoot better bullets than a 30-06? Do they kill the same animals within MPBR? That was the theme of this video.
Manufactures aren't trying to make better hunting cartridges or bullets; they are trying to convince you to buy a new rifle and ammo by tricking you into believing that they kill better by going faster or shooting Higher BC bullets. Many new bullets are actually downgrades for hunting (ELD), and most of these new cartridges induce more recoil, powder expenses, and barrel wear than the cartridges they were intended to replace.
Because these "new magnums" aren't selling particularly well, the trend will inevitably shift back to softer shooting cartridges, like it always does. Old is New once again.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 Nothing, it's purely about the general statement that nothing is new.
To be more on topic, my view on magnums is that I can't envision me needing one. I like the short actions, the "less is more" mindset. I decided not to leave a comment simply saying that.
@@phillycheesetake I agree, less is often more.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 Amen!
What makes a magnum caliber a magnum? Is there a ftps minimum or energy minimum? Is there a set rule?
No rules. In Latin, "Magnum" means "better". In that regard, most consider magnums to be faster offerings than their standard brethren. But the term is loosely used, as the 220 Swift is a true Magnum, but the WSSM's are not magnums at all.
Thanks for the great video Desert Dog, i'm new in the reloading world and still have a lot to learn, what would your recommendation be for powder to reload a magnum cartridge say like for the 375 H&H Magnum shooting a 300gr Barns TSX bullet
Hodgdon RETUMBO
DO NOT USE RETUMBO as Andre recommended!!!! That is bad advise. Retumbo is one of the slowest burning powders available, and is WAYYYYY too slow for the old H&H. The medium-fast rifle powders like 4895, 4064, RL15, and Varget are best for the 375 H&H; and give optimum velocity without a highly compressed load. I like H4895 for the 250gr TTSX, and IMR4064 for the 300gr TSX.
DD is right. I was thinking more in terms of 338 Lapua magnum where the case capacity is way larger and you can pack 100 grains of powder for a 300 gr projectile . 375 HH has much less case capacity, hence faster burning powder to accelerate a 300 gr bullet. Sorry guys
If traveling to Africa is your plan, my vote goes to H4350. Work up to 2500-2550 fps with 300 gr pills and you will be golden.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 thank you very much for the advice luckily i haven't bought any powder yet, was waiting to see your advice, again thank u for your great videos and advise
Just Suppress it…. Never have to worry about “muzzle blast” & “recoil” again.
Unfortunately, many people live in places and hunt in countries where that isn't a reality.
With a well placed shot you don't need a magnum for most North American game.
I agree.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 You know. Most hunters never train for that shot. They practice from a solid bench. Never from a prone, standing, propped, sitting or kneeling position.
If they're hunting from an elevated blind they've another sturdy rest and the other positions don't apply.
Randy Newberg states that a poor shot with a magnum caliber won't bring down the game any more than a poor shot from a standard caliber.
as a non hunter only real interest i have in magnums is beating body armor
Bullet construction defeats armor more than anything .
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 yes it does and thats my interest is a budget bolt gun to beat armor past my ar15s capabilities i do other shooting too but thats my focus at the moment