Well, after about five times of watching this, I finally see in my mind what you’re saying. Seeing your point of view and tracking with that rather than trying to follow you while trying to track what other try to describe made it confusing. You seem to keep it simple. I was making it more complicated. So, long live the 30-06
I love your channel. I find it very practical. On the 257 Weatherby; my brother (recoil sensitive, just saying) took his Blaser to South Africa last July. He was shooting TTSX bullets out of the 257. Sable, Kudo, and a lot of other game were cleanly take with no tracking necessary. I took a leopard in Namibia with my 257 Weatherby. It dropped at the shot. It's a good cartridge, but it does NOT mean shot placement can be negated.
I've been in the shooting game most of my life & spent a good amount of it in the bush , your talk on killing power was music to my ears, there is so much hype & nonsense written about the subject. Keep up the good work!
I've only shot one cow elk using my 9.3x62, so I'm not an authority on the cartridge by any means. But I can tell you the results with 250gr Nosler Accubond bullets was DRT, (dead right there). 200yd shot, broadside went through both shoulders and was immediate. I have also loaded the 250gr TTSX Barnes and have to wait for next hunting season to try them out. For 'plinking' I'm loading 270gr Speer due to the price being so cheap. All three loadings will produce 1 moa or better at 100yds. A truly amazing cartridge both in history and effects.
I’m the type that likes pass through penetration. In my experience, soft bullets that expand dramatically have a high propensity to cause unnecessary meat damage and trauma. The guys that think a bullet needs to transfer all of its energy inside the animal to get the most effective kill are blind to the fact that there’s a major diminishing return on the amount of energy transferred required to quickly kill. A bullet that exceeds the energy point of diminishing returns does not have a negative affect on killing time. Something a lot of guys can’t wrap their mind around. I’ve killed dozens of animals that instantly drop when there’s full pass through penetration, and dozens that ran a short distance. I’ve also killed many animals with soft bullets that instantly drop without full penetration, and a few that couldn’t be found. In every case, the instant kills from soft bullets showed the worst meat damage. I’ll take the full penetration short blood trails with less meat damage everyday of the week.
Thanks! Teaching new, and instilling old hunting habits that work! Ethical hunters practicing good techniques taught to them make me smile! This guy knows his stuff hands down!
Nice one DD, you had me smiling when you commented on the .45/70 which is a favourite of mine in my Ruger No1. At distances inside 100 yards it’s a great rifle and cartridge using 300 grain or 350 grain bullets at around 2000fps. These loads kill fallow, red and roe deer very well and with perhaps less meat damage than a higher velocity bullet from my .270 Win. I fully appreciate your thoughts on recoil etc but I just love my .45/70. That said my rifle of choice this morning was my Tikka .270 😀.
This is spot on. Well said on the 3 factors. However, I am a Weatherby fan until you get to the 416 & 460. However, I shoot a lot of Nosler Partition Bullets. My 12 1/2 year old granddaughter killed a 320 bull at 375 yards on the first shot with a 7mm Weatherby Magnum loaded with 155 grain Federal Terminal Ascent with a muzzle velocity of 3,300 FPS. 1st time using them. The bullet did its job. I agree with the distance comment. I really like 25-06, 257 Weatherby Magnum (at distance) & 270. My son got an education when I took my young grandson deer hunting and I chose a 22-250 with a 60 grain partition. This rifle will stabilize them. He shot his 1st deer broadside thru the heart. My son could not believe the size of the wounds channel and the size of the exit hole. Big bores can do damage, but you have to get the right bullet for the game you are hunting. I have seen spectacular results with a 444 Marlin with a 240 grain Sierra JHP with a muzzle velocity of 2,400 FPS In conclusion, chose the right bullet for the game you are hunting, with the proper range of cartridges, choose your shot well, and most important, put the bullet where it belongs.
I think what trips us up is thinking of kinetic energy as killing “power”. Rather, if you consider it to be an expression of killing “potential” it falls right into place and works splendidly both conceptually and mathematically. Take any particular bullet and increase it’s kinetic energy and you proportionally increase its potential to produce a kill (the only exception perhaps is for fragile bullets that splat on bone or grenade before reaching vitals). What the bullet does with this kinetic energy fuelled killing potential depends on shot placement, bullet construction, animal toughness etc. as always. As an expression of killing potential, I consider kinetic energy to be a perfectly useful measure when evaluating cartridge/bullet combinations for different applications. Cheers!… Man I’m really enjoying your channel. Great content!
In think you are right on about energy being a measure of the potential for the killing power of a bullet. So many factors are at play each time with shots on game animals in the real world.
I’m my almost 60 years of hunting I can say the formulas are for fools. I would say ‘killing power’ of a bullet is based on three basic principles, 1) shot placement, 2) bullet construction, and 3) effective range of the bullet. All of these depend on the knowledge and expertise of the hunter. We must remember that the weakest link in the hunt is the hunter himself. The second weakest thing is the cartridge itself, brass, powder and bullet are all variable to some degree but the knowledgeable hunter who educates himself can greatly reduce the variables. Good video!
For 40 years, I've used multiple calibers on north American game. Distances out to 800yrds. From 12 gauge slugs, 45-70, .44 mag,-- 300 win mag, 3006, and 243. I've lost 2 deer in that time. One with a .35 lever action, and one with a Roger .44 mag. Both had vital hits. Close enough to see the hit! My slug and high caliber rifles have dropped the game within a few steps. The toughest hunt was Buffalo. At 300 yards, it took multiple hits with my 3006. Another individual using a 7mm-08 dropped one with three shots. After inspection. I had 3 lung shots and one heart. The 3 shots from the 7mm had 2 shoulder hits and a final hit in the neck that dropped him in his tracks. Conclusion. Fast...lightweight rounds release energy for a bigger shock to the system.
Going… Going… Going… Gone. Folks this one just got hit out of the park. Great job DD. You don’t always agree with my ideas and I’m sure vice versa, but you were spot on 100% here. Keep up the great work.
🥳 Suprisingly, You are the only U-Tube hunting channel that I've seen that actually understands some of the basic concepts of terminal performance of bullets upon Big Game! I would have outline the topic slightly different, but Good Job!!! 😜
I've always been a fan of heavier for caliber bullets, no real reason I guess, it just always worked for me! Now I'm a big fan of the monolithic bullets
A .22 is deadly as far as it is accurate. A 55lb bow can kill any north American animal. A 35lb bow works for deer. A 52lb bow will kill a polar bear like Fred Bear did. My arrows are 466 grains from a 70lb bow. The longer the projectile the better the penetration. Thus a spear with a thrower or amentum will kill a Trex or buffalo. Distance matters because stuff runs out of steam. My bow only has good penetration out to 200 feet. It will still push through a 5 inch diameter tree after going through a 5 inch closed cell foam float with field point at 200 feet. Great topic. It comes down to ethical range with tools in hand. Knowing what those ranges are is where to start. Then knowing what your skill range allows.
I recently tried these barns vortex 130grain ttsx in .308. There going 3105 fps outa my 26inch barrel. They just flip whitetails right over. Like they were struck w lightning 🌩. Incredible from a 308. Never seen 308 hit like that. Felt like using a bigger round. I'm impressed 👏
I very much prefer to shoot animals that are relaxed and not alerted to any danger. I do believe they go down quicker and cleaner. But there is no way to predict how each individual animal will react. I laugh when I see comments all the time of people saying “my deer always drop at the shot” or “my deer never take more than three steps”. There is no way that can reliably happen every time unless maybe you make a perfect head shot every time.
In my years of hunting I have discovered a light for caliber bonded bullet gives good velocity and good penetration which is an absolutely deadly combination. Obviously shot placement is key.
Sectional Density is a tool in a toolbox full of tools. I am not dismissive of it because it can assist a hunter make sound choices when considering an unfamiliar cartridge/bullet combination on a familiar big game animal or a familiar cartridge/bullet combination on an unfamiliar big game animal. When the hunter knows what has reliably and consistently worked in the past his toolbox of knowledge guides him.
For lead based bullets S.D. is a good helper, 44 mag. will kill most things with right bullet and distance, very little energy compared to most rifles. I have had great success with 338 federal, 358 Win., I think some of it is relative, like you said a combo of things to consider. My first rifle was a Brit. 303. I think I killed just about every animal on earth with that rifle minus the dangerous game group. The issue here is how to transfer exp. to new shooters/hunters, who were not born and raised with a gun in their hand? How do you make up for years with a BB gun, then a 22lr, shot gun, day in and day out., finally moving up to the faster/bigger calibers. Not to mention growth, where I used to shoot and hunt, are all full of houses now, the farmers and ranchers died off and the land was sold to house builders, what a total waste. Great Show.
Great video. Many people love looking at the numbers and charts without actually understanding terminal ballistics. I mostly hunt deer and I've killed quit alot , I also like shooting ballistics gel with deer shoulders and ribs in front to make it more realistic. I've been surprised quite a few times by the results. I shot meat and gel with 150 grain Remington corelokts out my 308 and 300 win mag. The 308 penetrated 28 inches, while the 300 completely fragmented and only went 15. If your ask anyone which one would be a better for an elk, probably 90% would say the 300 win mag because it has more energy, but That extra velocity with a cup and core bullet results in way less penetration. For my mountain deer rifle I like using and ar15 because of ergonomics. I use an AR chambered 6.8spc , not an amazingly powerful cartridge by anymeans but with the correct bullet deer never make it more then 50 yards after being shot, meanwhile I've watched my father shoot deer point blank with a 12 Gauge and they still run a 100 yards.
My son shot a large deer recently. While boning it out, discovered it had been shot previously 3 times. Incredible it had survived and healed with significant scar tissue around the projectiles and fragments. One bullet still completely intact was quite a small pill. As I listen to old time hunters, it seems their preference is a bigger pill going slower over a smaller faster pill.
I killed a pig 15 years ago, and found Two 22-calliber FMJ bullets in it's body. It seemed to be living a normal life, although I'm sure it endured a great deal of pain. Years ago at deer camp in D8, a doe walked through camp with an arrow sticking out of her upper body (illegal to take does in that area). People do unethical things while hunting; I hate it, but they do it anyway.
Wow, surprised they still even let you have a 30-06 in New Zealand. Do you have to surrender it to the government until they approve for you to go on a hunt and how long do they give you before you have to bring it back? I think Canada is working on a new system something like that- you poor people, I really feel bad for you all.
D, you have some great videos and I’m glad I subscribed months ago. Sorry that took me so long! This one may be your best yet. For decades I’ve read/memorized/applied BC, SD, TKO, energy figures and(after some amount of knowledge gained) just plain common sense when selecting a bullet for an application. There is no Holy Grail bullet. There is no Holy Grail formula. And especially there is no Holy Grail hunting situation. And I’m thankful for this. It’s this situation that helps keep things interesting. I mentally apply all these tools when selecting a bullet for the anticipated hunting situation and keep in my mind a certain margin of error when contemplating that choice. Thanks for a great video and I’m looking forward to the next
The combination of bullet construction, mass, velocity and bullet placement, all which can be controlled by the shooter, are all important. Theoretically kinetic energy can be equal at some point as velocity and mass are varied among different cartridges/calibers. In most cases velocity will hold the upper hand as energy increases with the square of the velocity as indicated in the classic formula. The only statement I have any disagreement with is regarding mass being the most important factor in overcoming the drag resistance of the body tissues to penetration in the wound channel. I submit that the remaining velocity of the bullet and its remaining energy is more important. A standard velocity 45-70 slug, even with its larger mass and frontal area, is going to be slowed more because of its lower impact velocity and energy. That's why the '06 and other similar higher velocity cartridges are going to be better killers at longer ranges, regardless of whether the bullet is a modern copper or older style lead jacketed bullet. The 35 Whelen IMHO is the best of all worlds as long as shooting distances are ethical, which for me, even in my best younger days was not much over 300 yards. On the other side of the coin I can load my Siamese Mauser 45-70 with a 400 grain jacketed bullet to over 2000 fps. Over 3600 ft lbs muzzle energy and still over 1400 at 300 yards. Definitely still not flat shooting but plenty of energy and penetration for clean kills out to 300 yards. When sighted about 3.5" high at 100 yards and 175 yard zero a point blank hold out to 225-250 yards is possible depending on the size of the kill zone of whatever game you're shooting at. A little hold over may be necessary for longer ranges unless you have a fancy scope with the dials you have to screw with while your target is moving out of range. The only problem with this big bore louden boomer is that it can hurt on both ends. The energy formula works in both directions. Happy hunting boys and girls!😀
A guy in my local club just lost a trophy Aoudad in Southwest Texas. He stated that his 168gr VLD went squarely into the shoulder (like you should shoot aoudad) on a perfect broadside shot. The huge ram went down, got right back up and ran over the ridge. I asked him why he used that bullet, and he said "that's the bullet that Gunwerks built the rifle to shoot".
🤪 I wrote this the other day, to answer someone's question: Yes, bullet "performance" is a combination of 6 Main Things - bullet design (which controls sectional density and bullet weight after impact), bullet velocity, bullet weight, weight retention (a subset of bullet design and the materials that it is constructed with), bullet energy (a combination of bullet velocity and bullet weight), and shot placement! 👨🎓 Their may be something that I left out, as it was written in haste, so feel free to add your input! 🙂
Been a deer hunter for decades. Have killed hogs and a couple of buffalo as well. Best place to start in round selection is with other people's advice. No one round is best in every hunting situation. If all you hunt is deer you don't have to jumble the variables around very much to find the best round for you. If you change game then the preferrred round may change. A hunter can go as complex as they want in round selection or buy one rifle and do their hunting with that. I have killed deer with numerous different rounds. I can give great advice on deer rounds. If you ask me about elk hunting rounds I will have to refer you to someone who has hunted elk. Experience with what you have used is more important than the numbers or quantifiable value of a round.
I had a long debate with some city guys who obviously do not hunt and have no practical experience. They threw numbers at me. The best way to determine the issue is to actually demonstrate the effects of the cartridge by shooting it into ballistic gelatin.
You touched on one of the key points early on. The shape, weight and speed of the bullet at impact are just t0 values in terminal ballistics. Take for example weight. An ELD-X will usually shed 50% of its weight on it path through the body, significantly changing its SD along the way. A copper mono or a bonded bullet will retain their SD t0 value completely or close to it. Energy at t0 will tell you very little, if bullet designs differ. Both can have let’s say 2500 ft-lb at impact. But the FMJ will pencil through with a smaller crush path and significant speed at exit of the body only transferring a part of its energy into damage, whereas a cup n core will dump all energy in the body. I don’t agree with your disregard for high BC bullets though. Even at very ethical hunting distances they give you a significant energy advantage vs. traditional designs. E.g my 30-06 200 grain ELD-X handload will have a 300 ft-lb advantage at 200 yards vs. the traditional designs with a BC like a barn door. Will this be enough to make a difference - sometimes it will
Your last example of the ELD delivering more 300ft/lbs at 200 yds is highly exagerated with modern hunting bullets like TTSX and Accubonds. Also, the ELD is probably the most unreliable hunting bullet current on the market. Many Guides are at the point where they ask their clients not to use them.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 have you got a link to a guide saying that or ever had them fail on you personally? ELDs and fusions are my go to hunting bullets at the moment due to performance and availability.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 hence me saying compared to “traditional” bullets, so your classic soft points and alike. A TTSX is far from traditional with the polymer tip and the boat tail giving you a BC .48 in the 180. A Core-Lokt is already down to .38. The ELD-X is an interesting one. Would be interested to get your opinion on that - I think the way it is marketed and designed invites hunters to take shots they shouldn’t. - Taking too far out shots when the skills or the proper angle are not there is the obvious one - short distance shots with very high speeds due to lower grain weights leading to 80-90% weight loss - high market share in the new shooter segment, which produces in itself less than optimal shots on game
@@nikos6220that’s an interesting set of inquiries regarding the ELD-X. I’d like to know as well. Hornady has imo been at the forefront in the last decade plus of offering new products for shooters. But they’ve discontinued many products that are claimed to not sell well(many roundnose and flat points). Those FNs and RNs that “don’t sell well” volume wise probably haven’t dropped in sales to the extent claimed. More than likely their sales are compared to the sales of VLD style bullets that are all the rage. Especially with the many new handloaders that haven’t the foggiest idea of the benefits of those classic discontinued bullets. I just sometimes wonder what’s up with Hornady. Considering the thinner(they look thinner anyway) jackets of the ELD-X vs same caliber InterLock they can’t be that much more expensive to make vs how much more they charge for em. Likewise Nosler has been up to no good with the exorbitant cost of the Partition now. At least 25% higher than all copper TSXs?! Really?! When John Sr was at the helm(and in Bob’s early days such was not the case
@@robertfree1908 in the end they are a slightly beefed up (thicker jacket) match bullet. Just like the Game King and others. If that is a bad thing, is hotly debated. There is hole host of experienced hunters out there that even argue for the use of match bullets, especially on longer range shots. For sure they are way cheaper. The accubonds are 3x more expensive. My view is that they work well if you get down to velocities where they show the 50-60% weight retention. That’s why I handload the 200 grain in my ELD-X in my 20’ 30-06, which gets me to 2600 ft/s out of the muzzle. Running them at 3000 ft/s plus at impact will turn them into a grenade and lead to the erratic behavior Desert Dog Outdoors referenced in his comment.
Because penetration is of utmost importance to them. The vitals on most Afrcan game is right between the shoulders, so a bullet must bust through that. A behind the shoulder "whitetale" shot, is usually a gut shot in Africa.
Excellent video, you make too much sense for the internet so I’m sure you’ll have 45-70 types gnashing their teeth at you! But give me a 180 partition from a 30-06 over a 45-70 any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
You wiley old fox! You really kicked the hornets nest this time. Truth be told there are so many variables with projectile effect on an animal, it is a moot point discussion. You have my complete respect for stating that ( a least that is what I thought you said ). Thank for your excellent work illuminating the obscure world of hunting.
"INTERNAL ballistics" I believe is what you're mainly talking about. I began using the first Barnes X bullets in about 1992, they killed so perfectly, and strangely produced NO bloodshot, macerated meat. I literally "ate the bullet hole" because it was torn, but not bloodshot! - on many animals. The "killing power" of a 30-06 became much more on elk, noticeably. Placement ; then bullet construction; then tinker with weights and vels. Great vid: experience usually Trumps theory, you might say. Thanks for the breakdown on a troubled subject.
"INTERNAL ballistics" is what a bullet and rifle do as the bullet is traveling down the barrel. External ballistics is what a bullet is doing traveling downrange to the target/animal. Terminal Ballistics/Performance is what the bullet does upon impact and through the target/animal, which is what DD was talking about.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 I was the one who liked the post. Uses the same cartridge and bullet on moosehunting in Sweden. In my opinion the 9,3x62 is a faster killer than a 300 win mag inside 200 yards. And it does very little meatdamage.
(Lawrence from North Georgia) Yeah, for years, the only thing all those calculations ever did was piss me off. I finally decided to choose my hunting bullet based on my own ballistic buffalo tests. So, what I would LIKE to see companies do is to start posting real world tests - either on game, or on a setup that best recreates the target species for a particular bullet. For instance, put a piece of thick leather over a 2x4 in front of a few feet of ballistic gel, then another 2x4 and more leather. I want to see the distance it takes for the bullet to reach maximum expansion, and how far it penetrates at that expansion. And I want to see this test done at velocities that simulate a 25 yard target, out to the maximum that I would dare hunt, maybe 300 yards (I don't trust my old phart eyes any farther than that). Numbers alone don't tell you crap. Bullets do weird things when they contact flesh and bone (or saplings in front of flesh and bone), so I don't care about numbers, I just want to see real world tests. Thanks for the video!
I would like to see a guideline established that would take into account the some of the following: Animal density and hide, hair, fat content Bone size and density. Mass of animal. Animal lives in dry or wet habitat. Tenacity to live. Distance of shot. I am sure I left out some. I teach Hunter Education. I have many different makes and sizes of bullets that I have cross sectioned that I take for show and tell. I explain the bullet construction, material, jacket thickness and different results will 13:16 be experienced based on velocity at impact, entry angle, and most important shot placement.
In my lifetime of hunting weight frontal diameter matter a good bit. Assuming you have adequate penetration normally the fatter heavier bullet kills better. Velocity energy matter to an extent. Sectional density gives a comparison of penetration if bullet construction is the same. There is a lightning type effect high power rifles have as well. It's complicated really. A 240 weatherby mag will kill a mountain lion quicker than a 45-70 probably but a grizzly I'll take the 45-70. It's like comparing a 30-06 to a 7mm rem mag one has slightly more velocity the other larger heavier bullet. Both with modern bullets like a ttsx penetration is about equal both will penetrate far enough for any game on this continent and if I were face to face with a 1000 pound brown bear trying to kill me I would slightly lean towards the 30-06.
Kinetic energy expended in an animal and bullet performance/shape are what damages tissue. Nothing else. Destroying critical tissue is what kills animals. Big fast bullets do more damage than big slow bullets, but the law of diminishing returns applies.
If I recall right from what I've read, the "hydrostatic shock" travels at 1/10th the speed of the bullet in the animal. And is almost non existent in handgun speeds. I think 1700fps was given as a lower threshold.
We have a lot of data points. The only real variable is bullet construction. If, by now, you can not look at a set of velocity, caliber, and weight, and know which animals it is appropriate for, your probably in marketing.
I have observed that a deer I shot with a 50 caliber muzzle loader the big old slug went clear through the chest cavity and exited but the shock wasn’t there like a high power 30-06 or 270 bullet does that animal run a 100 yards before collapsing
Great vid! BC don't mean anything to me, very educational vid! RibMeat is extremely important eating to me to attempt such meat wasting engine room kills. I been taught to make clean headshots on Bull Moose at extremely close ranges. I really don't understand this new BC craze that has entered this region. Ballistics Coefficient means jack to me, when my 30'06 w/Nosler Partition 165, 180, 200, or 220 headshot drop Moose right where they stand! Know thy quarry, headshots are the way to go! For new and old hunters, try using wood smoke to cover your scent. I had bad luck using store-bought scent killers. I douse myself in wood smoke while cooking breakfast before me and my cousin head to the blind, works every single time, gotta redo the process whenever needed!
Anyone who has field dressed enough animals, can tell you match bullets (ELD’s in particular) don’t do as much damage as bonded or monolithic bullets. Any extra energy you get within a few hundred yards from a high BC bullet, is absolutely negligible. I sure as hell hope no one is target practicing on Animals out past 500 yards, where these match bullets do provide more energy. I have a target load for shooting steel out past 500 yards, with match bullets (Hornady, Sierra, Berger). Also, a hunting load with dependable, hard hitting Partitions, bonded or monolithics. Don’t be cheap. Even a feral pig, deserves the best bullet, and the cleanest most humane kill.
If I loaded Superformance power on the mild side would it behave more like IMR4381? I hear it is very temperature sensitive and prone to be unpredictable near maximum pressures. What is the sensible approach to using Superformance in .30-06. I got 4 pounds that I'd like to use.
Well they say never use reloading recipes that you find on the web, only from legit reloading manuals, and I agree with that. But this is my hunting load that I've been having great results with over the last couple of hunting seasons. Rifle, customized weatherby vanguard 30-06 ,24' Bartlien sporter b barrel. 61.8gr superformance powder, 165gr hornady sst . Lapua brass, fed gold med primers, set @ 7thou off the lands. Consistent velocities of the high 2980s to low 2990s. Very accurate and deadly with proper shot placement. From my rifle.
@@roddawe2505 Thanks for that. Many have reported disappointing results, and this powder was given to me, because the previous owner was not happy with it. I'm wondering if it worth my time. I will try it out.
@@tunnelrabbit2625 know problem TR. Superformance is temperature stabilized, but it is a hot powder (high velocity) so I would start @ around 58grs and slowly work up at 2 tenths at a time, 5 shot loads. Pick your 3 best groups out of the lot and go from there.
@@MrHf4l If you want to shoot bullets that light, you would have been better off with a 308 or 30-06. The light bullets are a waste of powder with the 300 win mag.
But isn't engineered bullet-expansion an attempt to maximize the bullet's sectional density upon contact (for maximum damage) while minimizing the bullet's sectional density in the air (for best aerodynamics)? An easy test if a bullet's sectional density matters for killing power: shoot a FMJ .30-06 bullet into a broadside deer's chest, then shoot a hollow-point .30-06 bullet into a broadside deer's chest. Compare the damage. Personally, I've suspected for several years now that hollowpoint bullet technology is a gimmick. The US military never adopted hollowpoints and our infantry seem to be doing fine.
No. Modern hunting bullets (not rebranded target bullets) are designed to provide controlled expansion, straight tracking, and mass retention. The ability to retain mass is more critical to penetration than sectional density. Modern mono and bonded bullets are all great penetrators for caliber, making SD a mute point for the most part. Hornady and Berger throw around SDs and BCs to convince novice hunters to use target bullets that perform poorly on game.
@@NCWoodlandRoamer The military has been using the Sierra Matchkings (hollow points) in Sniper ammo for over 30 years. Some liberals tried to sue the US military for using them in 1990, but lost because the US congress never ratified the Hague convention and is not bound it.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 Oh yes, you are correct. I had forgotten about snipers using match kings but I did not know that congress had never ratified The Hague convention.
To an extent, yes. Bullet construction also has a lot to do with that. A Nosler BT at 2300fps can destroy an entire shoulder, where a TTSX at 2800fps might do minimal meat damage. But, given the exact same bullets of the same weight and caliber, the faster one will damage more meat because it will transfer more energy throughout the wound channel.
I have been fascinated in the past with the Killing Power Score that was developed by Chuck Hawks. Are you familiar with it? The formula he came up with was KPS= Energy x Sectional Density x Cross Sectional Area. He suggested that in order to kill Class 2 game, a score of at least 12.5 at 100 yards was advisable. Per his chart online (Google it if you wish) that would rule out some cartridges I myself have serious doubts about such as .223 Rem, .223 WSSM, .30 Carbine, and marginal would be the .357 Magnum. This score seems to fall victim to some of the things you talked about here, what are your thoughts?
Chuck hawks formula was yet another Quasi-scientific attempt to quantify killing potential of a cartridge. Again, it puts too much emphasis on SD (which shouldn't be part of the equation at all).
Well, after about five times of watching this, I finally see in my mind what you’re saying.
Seeing your point of view and tracking with that rather than trying to follow you while trying to track what other try to describe made it confusing.
You seem to keep it simple. I was making it more complicated.
So, long live the 30-06
The thumbnail of this video is absolutely legendary !
definitely click-bait, lol.
I love your channel. I find it very practical.
On the 257 Weatherby; my brother (recoil sensitive, just saying) took his Blaser to South Africa last July. He was shooting
TTSX bullets out of the 257. Sable, Kudo, and a lot of other game were cleanly take with no tracking necessary.
I took a leopard in Namibia with my 257 Weatherby. It dropped at the shot. It's a good cartridge, but it does NOT mean shot placement can be negated.
I've been in the shooting game most of my life & spent a good amount of it in the bush , your talk on killing power was music to my ears, there is so much hype & nonsense written about the subject.
Keep up the good work!
IMO, the perfect balance is heavy bullets in moderate speed. And it is called 9.3x62!
Love it, man. Love it. Long live the Medium Bores
I've only shot one cow elk using my 9.3x62, so I'm not an authority on the cartridge by any means.
But I can tell you the results with 250gr Nosler Accubond bullets was DRT, (dead right there). 200yd shot, broadside went through both shoulders and was immediate.
I have also loaded the 250gr TTSX Barnes and have to wait for next hunting season to try them out.
For 'plinking' I'm loading 270gr Speer due to the price being so cheap.
All three loadings will produce 1 moa or better at 100yds. A truly amazing cartridge both in history and effects.
I’m the type that likes pass through penetration. In my experience, soft bullets that expand dramatically have a high propensity to cause unnecessary meat damage and trauma. The guys that think a bullet needs to transfer all of its energy inside the animal to get the most effective kill are blind to the fact that there’s a major diminishing return on the amount of energy transferred required to quickly kill. A bullet that exceeds the energy point of diminishing returns does not have a negative affect on killing time. Something a lot of guys can’t wrap their mind around.
I’ve killed dozens of animals that instantly drop when there’s full pass through penetration, and dozens that ran a short distance. I’ve also killed many animals with soft bullets that instantly drop without full penetration, and a few that couldn’t be found. In every case, the instant kills from soft bullets showed the worst meat damage. I’ll take the full penetration short blood trails with less meat damage everyday of the week.
I also prefer a complete pass through.
You Sir, are an encyclopedia of information. Thanks for sharing 👍
Great video!
Thanks! Teaching new, and instilling old hunting habits that work! Ethical hunters practicing good techniques taught to them make me smile! This guy knows his stuff hands down!
Good topic, can't wait to hear your opinion.
Nice one DD, you had me smiling when you commented on the .45/70 which is a favourite of mine in my Ruger No1. At distances inside 100 yards it’s a great rifle and cartridge using 300 grain or 350 grain bullets at around 2000fps. These loads kill fallow, red and roe deer very well and with perhaps less meat damage than a higher velocity bullet from my .270 Win. I fully appreciate your thoughts on recoil etc but I just love my .45/70. That said my rifle of choice this morning was my Tikka .270 😀.
In my experiences…your 3 factors are absolutely spot on!!!
This is spot on. Well said on the 3 factors.
However, I am a Weatherby fan until you get to the 416 & 460. However, I shoot a lot of Nosler Partition Bullets. My 12 1/2 year old granddaughter killed a 320 bull at 375 yards on the first shot with a 7mm Weatherby Magnum loaded with 155 grain Federal Terminal Ascent with a muzzle velocity of 3,300 FPS. 1st time using them. The bullet did its job.
I agree with the distance comment. I really like 25-06, 257 Weatherby Magnum (at distance) & 270.
My son got an education when I took my young grandson deer hunting and I chose a 22-250 with a 60 grain partition. This rifle will stabilize them. He shot his 1st deer broadside thru the heart. My son could not believe the size of the wounds channel and the size of the exit hole.
Big bores can do damage, but you have to get the right bullet for the game you are hunting. I have seen spectacular results with a 444 Marlin with a 240 grain Sierra JHP with a muzzle velocity of 2,400 FPS
In conclusion, chose the right bullet for the game you are hunting, with the proper range of cartridges, choose your shot well, and most important, put the bullet where it belongs.
I think what trips us up is thinking of kinetic energy as killing “power”. Rather, if you consider it to be an expression of killing “potential” it falls right into place and works splendidly both conceptually and mathematically. Take any particular bullet and increase it’s kinetic energy and you proportionally increase its potential to produce a kill (the only exception perhaps is for fragile bullets that splat on bone or grenade before reaching vitals). What the bullet does with this kinetic energy fuelled killing potential depends on shot placement, bullet construction, animal toughness etc. as always.
As an expression of killing potential, I consider kinetic energy to be a perfectly useful measure when evaluating cartridge/bullet combinations for different applications.
Cheers!… Man I’m really enjoying your channel. Great content!
In think you are right on about energy being a measure of the potential for the killing power of a bullet. So many factors are at play each time with shots on game animals in the real world.
Great summation of this video! Exactly the point I attempted to get across.
Commonsense, science and practical experience. Thank you.
Great perspective on a much over-studied yet misunderstood discussion.
I’m my almost 60 years of hunting I can say the formulas are for fools. I would say ‘killing power’ of a bullet is based on three basic principles, 1) shot placement, 2) bullet construction, and 3) effective range of the bullet. All of these depend on the knowledge and expertise of the hunter. We must remember that the weakest link in the hunt is the hunter himself. The second weakest thing is the cartridge itself, brass, powder and bullet are all variable to some degree but the knowledgeable hunter who educates himself can greatly reduce the variables. Good video!
For 40 years, I've used multiple calibers on north American game. Distances out to 800yrds. From 12 gauge slugs, 45-70, .44 mag,-- 300 win mag, 3006, and 243. I've lost 2 deer in that time. One with a .35 lever action, and one with a Roger .44 mag. Both had vital hits. Close enough to see the hit!
My slug and high caliber rifles have dropped the game within a few steps.
The toughest hunt was Buffalo. At 300 yards, it took multiple hits with my 3006. Another individual using a 7mm-08 dropped one with three shots. After inspection. I had 3 lung shots and one heart. The 3 shots from the 7mm had 2 shoulder hits and a final hit in the neck that dropped him in his tracks.
Conclusion. Fast...lightweight rounds release energy for a bigger shock to the system.
Happy new year DD!
Going… Going… Going… Gone. Folks this one just got hit out of the park. Great job DD. You don’t always agree with my ideas and I’m sure vice versa, but you were spot on 100% here. Keep up the great work.
Very well said.
🥳 Suprisingly, You are the only U-Tube hunting channel that I've seen that actually understands some of the basic concepts of terminal performance of bullets upon Big Game! I would have outline the topic slightly different, but Good Job!!! 😜
Really enjoy your channel watch several you've posted.multiple times very good stuff thanks for your fine work.
I've always been a fan of heavier for caliber bullets, no real reason I guess, it just always worked for me! Now I'm a big fan of the monolithic bullets
A .22 is deadly as far as it is accurate. A 55lb bow can kill any north American animal. A 35lb bow works for deer. A 52lb bow will kill a polar bear like Fred Bear did. My arrows are 466 grains from a 70lb bow. The longer the projectile the better the penetration. Thus a spear with a thrower or amentum will kill a Trex or buffalo. Distance matters because stuff runs out of steam. My bow only has good penetration out to 200 feet. It will still push through a 5 inch diameter tree after going through a 5 inch closed cell foam float with field point at 200 feet. Great topic. It comes down to ethical range with tools in hand. Knowing what those ranges are is where to start. Then knowing what your skill range allows.
I recently tried these barns vortex 130grain ttsx in .308. There going 3105 fps outa my 26inch barrel. They just flip whitetails right over. Like they were struck w lightning 🌩. Incredible from a 308. Never seen 308 hit like that. Felt like using a bigger round. I'm impressed 👏
The 180gr bullet in the 30-06 at 2700 fps is golden. The 250 Savage on deer size game would even work fine.
Yep, a tough 180gr bullet at 2700fps is about as well-balanced as it gets.
Excellent
Great video. Very clearly explained. I bet you get plenty of comeback! Happy New Year DD!
I very much prefer to shoot animals that are relaxed and not alerted to any danger. I do believe they go down quicker and cleaner. But there is no way to predict how each individual animal will react. I laugh when I see comments all the time of people saying “my deer always drop at the shot” or “my deer never take more than three steps”. There is no way that can reliably happen every time unless maybe you make a perfect head shot every time.
Love these vids. Especially one on your 7-08. Can we get some more specs of that?
In my years of hunting I have discovered a light for caliber bonded bullet gives good velocity and good penetration which is an absolutely deadly combination. Obviously shot placement is key.
Sectional Density is a tool in a toolbox full of tools. I am not dismissive of it because it can assist a hunter make sound choices when considering an unfamiliar cartridge/bullet combination on a familiar big game animal or a familiar cartridge/bullet combination on an unfamiliar big game animal. When the hunter knows what has reliably and consistently worked in the past his toolbox of knowledge guides him.
Very well said
For lead based bullets S.D. is a good helper, 44 mag. will kill most things with right bullet and distance, very little energy compared to most rifles. I have had great success with 338 federal, 358 Win., I think some of it is relative, like you said a combo of things to consider. My first rifle was a Brit. 303. I think I killed just about every animal on earth with that rifle minus the dangerous game group. The issue here is how to transfer exp. to new shooters/hunters, who were not born and raised with a gun in their hand? How do you make up for years with a BB gun, then a 22lr, shot gun, day in and day out., finally moving up to the faster/bigger calibers. Not to mention growth, where I used to shoot and hunt, are all full of houses now, the farmers and ranchers died off and the land was sold to house builders, what a total waste. Great Show.
It is a shame isn’t it that our youngsters for the most part didn’t get that head start. Your comment hits home, my friend
Great video. Many people love looking at the numbers and charts without actually understanding terminal ballistics. I mostly hunt deer and I've killed quit alot , I also like shooting ballistics gel with deer shoulders and ribs in front to make it more realistic. I've been surprised quite a few times by the results. I shot meat and gel with 150 grain Remington corelokts out my 308 and 300 win mag. The 308 penetrated 28 inches, while the 300 completely fragmented and only went 15. If your ask anyone which one would be a better for an elk, probably 90% would say the 300 win mag because it has more energy, but That extra velocity with a cup and core bullet results in way less penetration. For my mountain deer rifle I like using and ar15 because of ergonomics. I use an AR chambered 6.8spc , not an amazingly powerful cartridge by anymeans but with the correct bullet deer never make it more then 50 yards after being shot, meanwhile I've watched my father shoot deer point blank with a 12 Gauge and they still run a 100 yards.
My son shot a large deer recently. While boning it out, discovered it had been shot previously 3 times. Incredible it had survived and healed with significant scar tissue around the projectiles and fragments. One bullet still completely intact was quite a small pill. As I listen to old time hunters, it seems their preference is a bigger pill going slower over a smaller faster pill.
I killed a pig 15 years ago, and found Two 22-calliber FMJ bullets in it's body. It seemed to be living a normal life, although I'm sure it endured a great deal of pain. Years ago at deer camp in D8, a doe walked through camp with an arrow sticking out of her upper body (illegal to take does in that area). People do unethical things while hunting; I hate it, but they do it anyway.
Hey DD, Just making a comment for the algorithm. Hope you and Becca have a fantastic 2023!
Thank you! The Algorithm seems to like this one so far (even thought the video thumbnail will trigger people).
in New Zealand the 30..06 is called the meat eater for a good reason/
Wow, surprised they still even let you have a 30-06 in New Zealand. Do you have to surrender it to the government until they approve for you to go on a hunt and how long do they give you before you have to bring it back? I think Canada is working on a new system something like that- you poor people, I really feel bad for you all.
@@plaiddad276 it was the semi autos they took. I HAVE A 300 RUM a real meat eater. still got the 30.06 .
@@davidorpwood8433 Glad to hear friend, happy hunting!
D, you have some great videos and I’m glad I subscribed months ago. Sorry that took me so long!
This one may be your best yet. For decades I’ve read/memorized/applied BC, SD, TKO, energy figures and(after some amount of knowledge gained) just plain common sense when selecting a bullet for an application. There is no Holy Grail bullet. There is no Holy Grail formula. And especially there is no Holy Grail hunting situation. And I’m thankful for this. It’s this situation that helps keep things interesting. I mentally apply all these tools when selecting a bullet for the anticipated hunting situation and keep in my mind a certain margin of error when contemplating that choice.
Thanks for a great video and I’m looking forward to the next
The combination of bullet construction, mass, velocity and bullet placement, all which can be controlled by the shooter, are all important. Theoretically kinetic energy can be equal at some point as velocity and mass are varied among different cartridges/calibers. In most cases velocity will hold the upper hand as energy increases with the square of the velocity as indicated in the classic formula. The only statement I have any disagreement with is regarding mass being the most important factor in overcoming the drag resistance of the body tissues to penetration in the wound channel. I submit that the remaining velocity of the bullet and its remaining energy is more important. A standard velocity 45-70 slug, even with its larger mass and frontal area, is going to be slowed more because of its lower impact velocity and energy. That's why the '06 and other similar higher velocity cartridges are going to be better killers at longer ranges, regardless of whether the bullet is a modern copper or older style lead jacketed bullet. The 35 Whelen IMHO is the best of all worlds as long as shooting distances are ethical, which for me, even in my best younger days was not much over 300 yards. On the other side of the coin I can load my Siamese Mauser 45-70 with a 400 grain jacketed bullet to over 2000 fps. Over 3600 ft lbs muzzle energy and still over 1400 at 300 yards. Definitely still not flat shooting but plenty of energy and penetration for clean kills out to 300 yards. When sighted about 3.5" high at 100 yards and 175 yard zero a point blank hold out to 225-250 yards is possible depending on the size of the kill zone of whatever game you're shooting at. A little hold over may be necessary for longer ranges unless you have a fancy scope with the dials you have to screw with while your target is moving out of range. The only problem with this big bore louden boomer is that it can hurt on both ends. The energy formula works in both directions. Happy hunting boys and girls!😀
So, I shouldn't be hunting with match bullets?
Practical experience and knowledge. Well done
A guy in my local club just lost a trophy Aoudad in Southwest Texas. He stated that his 168gr VLD went squarely into the shoulder (like you should shoot aoudad) on a perfect broadside shot. The huge ram went down, got right back up and ran over the ridge. I asked him why he used that bullet, and he said "that's the bullet that Gunwerks built the rifle to shoot".
🤪 I wrote this the other day, to answer someone's question: Yes, bullet "performance" is a combination of 6 Main Things - bullet design (which controls sectional density and bullet weight after impact), bullet velocity, bullet weight, weight retention (a subset of bullet design and the materials that it is constructed with), bullet energy (a combination of bullet velocity and bullet weight), and shot placement! 👨🎓 Their may be something that I left out, as it was written in haste, so feel free to add your input! 🙂
More or less correct. Weight being the least important at the end of the day. But still does factor in
Great information as always! Thank you
Been a deer hunter for decades. Have killed hogs and a couple of buffalo as well. Best place to start in round selection is with other people's advice. No one round is best in every hunting situation. If all you hunt is deer you don't have to jumble the variables around very much to find the best round for you. If you change game then the preferrred round may change. A hunter can go as complex as they want in round selection or buy one rifle and do their hunting with that. I have killed deer with numerous different rounds. I can give great advice on deer rounds. If you ask me about elk hunting rounds I will have to refer you to someone who has hunted elk. Experience with what you have used is more important than the numbers or quantifiable value of a round.
I think you are absolutely right!
I fully agree
I had a long debate with some city guys who obviously do not hunt and have no practical experience. They threw numbers at me. The best way to determine the issue is to actually demonstrate the effects of the cartridge by shooting it into ballistic gelatin.
Excellent points as always. Well explained
Excellent video! Thanks
Good video, DD. Makes a lot of sense. Happy New Year!
You touched on one of the key points early on. The shape, weight and speed of the bullet at impact are just t0 values in terminal ballistics.
Take for example weight. An ELD-X will usually shed 50% of its weight on it path through the body, significantly changing its SD along the way. A copper mono or a bonded bullet will retain their SD t0 value completely or close to it.
Energy at t0 will tell you very little, if bullet designs differ. Both can have let’s say 2500 ft-lb at impact. But the FMJ will pencil through with a smaller crush path and significant speed at exit of the body only transferring a part of its energy into damage, whereas a cup n core will dump all energy in the body.
I don’t agree with your disregard for high BC bullets though. Even at very ethical hunting distances they give you a significant energy advantage vs. traditional designs. E.g my 30-06 200 grain ELD-X handload will have a 300 ft-lb advantage at 200 yards vs. the traditional designs with a BC like a barn door. Will this be enough to make a difference - sometimes it will
Your last example of the ELD delivering more 300ft/lbs at 200 yds is highly exagerated with modern hunting bullets like TTSX and Accubonds. Also, the ELD is probably the most unreliable hunting bullet current on the market. Many Guides are at the point where they ask their clients not to use them.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 have you got a link to a guide saying that or ever had them fail on you personally? ELDs and fusions are my go to hunting bullets at the moment due to performance and availability.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 hence me saying compared to “traditional” bullets, so your classic soft points and alike. A TTSX is far from traditional with the polymer tip and the boat tail giving you a BC .48 in the 180. A Core-Lokt is already down to .38.
The ELD-X is an interesting one. Would be interested to get your opinion on that - I think the way it is marketed and designed invites hunters to take shots they shouldn’t.
- Taking too far out shots when the skills or the proper angle are not there is the obvious one
- short distance shots with very high speeds due to lower grain weights leading to 80-90% weight loss
- high market share in the new shooter segment, which produces in itself less than optimal shots on game
@@nikos6220that’s an interesting set of inquiries regarding the ELD-X. I’d like to know as well. Hornady has imo been at the forefront in the last decade plus of offering new products for shooters. But they’ve discontinued many products that are claimed to not sell well(many roundnose and flat points). Those FNs and RNs that “don’t sell well” volume wise probably haven’t dropped in sales to the extent claimed. More than likely their sales are compared to the sales of VLD style bullets that are all the rage. Especially with the many new handloaders that haven’t the foggiest idea of the benefits of those classic discontinued bullets. I just sometimes wonder what’s up with Hornady. Considering the thinner(they look thinner anyway) jackets of the ELD-X vs same caliber InterLock they can’t be that much more expensive to make vs how much more they charge for em. Likewise Nosler has been up to no good with the exorbitant cost of the Partition now. At least 25% higher than all copper TSXs?! Really?! When John Sr was at the helm(and in Bob’s early days such was not the case
@@robertfree1908 in the end they are a slightly beefed up (thicker jacket) match bullet. Just like the Game King and others.
If that is a bad thing, is hotly debated. There is hole host of experienced hunters out there that even argue for the use of match bullets, especially on longer range shots.
For sure they are way cheaper. The accubonds are 3x more expensive.
My view is that they work well if you get down to velocities where they show the 50-60% weight retention. That’s why I handload the 200 grain in my ELD-X in my 20’ 30-06, which gets me to 2600 ft/s out of the muzzle.
Running them at 3000 ft/s plus at impact will turn them into a grenade and lead to the erratic behavior Desert Dog Outdoors referenced in his comment.
I am leaning toward 35 Whelen .
It seems like African hunting prefers the big caliber, heavy bullets.
Because penetration is of utmost importance to them. The vitals on most Afrcan game is right between the shoulders, so a bullet must bust through that. A behind the shoulder "whitetale" shot, is usually a gut shot in Africa.
Thanks!
Thank you!
Excellent video, you make too much sense for the internet so I’m sure you’ll have 45-70 types gnashing their teeth at you! But give me a 180 partition from a 30-06 over a 45-70 any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
Is this Part 1?
It was good, enjoyed it.
Solid, science based information presented here.
Great video and information. I 💯 agree
You wiley old fox! You really kicked the hornets nest this time. Truth be told there are so many variables with projectile effect on an animal, it is a moot point discussion. You have my complete respect for stating that ( a least that is what I thought you said ). Thank for your excellent work illuminating the obscure world of hunting.
"INTERNAL ballistics" I believe is what you're mainly talking about.
I began using the first Barnes X bullets in about 1992, they killed so perfectly, and strangely produced NO bloodshot, macerated meat. I literally "ate the bullet hole" because it was torn, but not bloodshot! - on many animals.
The "killing power" of a 30-06 became much more on elk, noticeably.
Placement ; then bullet construction; then tinker with weights and vels.
Great vid: experience usually Trumps theory, you might say.
Thanks for the breakdown on a troubled subject.
"INTERNAL ballistics" is what a bullet and rifle do as the bullet is traveling down the barrel.
External ballistics is what a bullet is doing traveling downrange to the target/animal.
Terminal Ballistics/Performance is what the bullet does upon impact and through the target/animal, which is what DD was talking about.
Great Video !
286 gr nosler partition from a 9.3x62. Kill everything inside 300
You like it enough to like your own post
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 I was the one who liked the post. Uses the same cartridge and bullet on moosehunting in Sweden. In my opinion the 9,3x62 is a faster killer than a 300 win mag inside 200 yards. And it does very little meatdamage.
Spot on bro, 100%
(Lawrence from North Georgia)
Yeah, for years, the only thing all those calculations ever did was piss me off. I finally decided to choose my hunting bullet based on my own ballistic buffalo tests. So, what I would LIKE to see companies do is to start posting real world tests - either on game, or on a setup that best recreates the target species for a particular bullet.
For instance, put a piece of thick leather over a 2x4 in front of a few feet of ballistic gel, then another 2x4 and more leather. I want to see the distance it takes for the bullet to reach maximum expansion, and how far it penetrates at that expansion. And I want to see this test done at velocities that simulate a 25 yard target, out to the maximum that I would dare hunt, maybe 300 yards (I don't trust my old phart eyes any farther than that).
Numbers alone don't tell you crap. Bullets do weird things when they contact flesh and bone (or saplings in front of flesh and bone), so I don't care about numbers, I just want to see real world tests.
Thanks for the video!
As you've said, get close enough and keep the fps reasonable.
I would like to see a guideline established that would take into account the some of the following:
Animal density and hide, hair, fat content
Bone size and density.
Mass of animal.
Animal lives in dry or wet habitat.
Tenacity to live.
Distance of shot.
I am sure I left out some.
I teach Hunter Education. I have many different makes and sizes of bullets that I have cross sectioned that I take for show and tell. I explain the bullet construction, material, jacket thickness and different results will 13:16 be experienced based on velocity at impact, entry angle, and most important shot placement.
In my lifetime of hunting weight frontal diameter matter a good bit. Assuming you have adequate penetration normally the fatter heavier bullet kills better. Velocity energy matter to an extent. Sectional density gives a comparison of penetration if bullet construction is the same. There is a lightning type effect high power rifles have as well. It's complicated really. A 240 weatherby mag will kill a mountain lion quicker than a 45-70 probably but a grizzly I'll take the 45-70. It's like comparing a 30-06 to a 7mm rem mag one has slightly more velocity the other larger heavier bullet. Both with modern bullets like a ttsx penetration is about equal both will penetrate far enough for any game on this continent and if I were face to face with a 1000 pound brown bear trying to kill me I would slightly lean towards the 30-06.
Kinetic energy expended in an animal and bullet performance/shape are what damages tissue. Nothing else. Destroying critical tissue is what kills animals. Big fast bullets do more damage than big slow bullets, but the law of diminishing returns applies.
Most guys that hunt with handguns will shoot hard cast bullets to insure two holes .
If I recall right from what I've read, the "hydrostatic shock" travels at 1/10th the speed of the bullet in the animal. And is almost non existent in handgun speeds. I think 1700fps was given as a lower threshold.
Even in rifle cartridges, Hydrostatic shock is unreliable. A good permanent wound channel with good penetration is all that can be relied upon.
Should have added the whole thing about cartridges being called bullets and whole brass bullet caliber being called wrong names too video also
We have a lot of data points. The only real variable is bullet construction. If, by now, you can not look at a set of velocity, caliber, and weight, and know which animals it is appropriate for, your probably in marketing.
I have observed that a deer I shot with a 50 caliber muzzle loader the big old slug went clear through the chest cavity and exited but the shock wasn’t there like a high power 30-06 or 270 bullet does that animal run a 100 yards before collapsing
I've been critical sometimes, not this time.
👍👍
Great vid! BC don't mean anything to me, very educational vid!
RibMeat is extremely important eating to me to attempt such meat wasting engine room kills.
I been taught to make clean headshots on Bull Moose at extremely close ranges. I really don't understand this new BC craze that has entered this region. Ballistics Coefficient means jack to me, when my 30'06 w/Nosler Partition 165, 180, 200, or 220 headshot drop Moose right where they stand! Know thy quarry, headshots are the way to go!
For new and old hunters, try using wood smoke to cover your scent. I had bad luck using store-bought scent killers. I douse myself in wood smoke while cooking breakfast before me and my cousin head to the blind, works every single time, gotta redo the process whenever needed!
Anyone who has field dressed enough animals, can tell you match bullets (ELD’s in particular) don’t do as much damage as bonded or monolithic bullets. Any extra energy you get within a few hundred yards from a high BC bullet, is absolutely negligible. I sure as hell hope no one is target practicing on Animals out past 500 yards, where these match bullets do provide more energy.
I have a target load for shooting steel out past 500 yards, with match bullets (Hornady, Sierra, Berger). Also, a hunting load with dependable, hard hitting Partitions, bonded or monolithics.
Don’t be cheap. Even a feral pig, deserves the best bullet, and the cleanest most humane kill.
Well said amigo!
If I loaded Superformance power on the mild side would it behave more like IMR4381? I hear it is very temperature sensitive and prone to be unpredictable near maximum pressures. What is the sensible approach to using Superformance in .30-06. I got 4 pounds that I'd like to use.
Well they say never use reloading recipes that you find on the web, only from legit reloading manuals, and I agree with that. But this is my hunting load that I've been having great results with over the last couple of hunting seasons. Rifle, customized weatherby vanguard 30-06 ,24' Bartlien sporter b barrel. 61.8gr superformance powder, 165gr hornady sst . Lapua brass, fed gold med primers, set @ 7thou off the lands. Consistent velocities of the high 2980s to low 2990s. Very accurate and deadly with proper shot placement. From my rifle.
@@roddawe2505 Thanks for that. Many have reported disappointing results, and this powder was given to me, because the previous owner was not happy with it. I'm wondering if it worth my time. I will try it out.
@@tunnelrabbit2625 know problem TR. Superformance is temperature stabilized, but it is a hot powder (high velocity) so I would start @ around 58grs and slowly work up at 2 tenths at a time, 5 shot loads. Pick your 3 best groups out of the lot and go from there.
@@roddawe2505 Thanks for the info. This one is new to me...
How would you feel about using a 150TTSX in 300win mag on large bull elk at 400yds?
You're using a magnum! Why not move up to a 180gr TTSX at 3000fps. Leave the 150gr bullets for the 308.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 only two reasons are trajectory and velocity… rather use the 168 over the 180.
Thoughts?
@@MrHf4l If you want to shoot bullets that light, you would have been better off with a 308 or 30-06. The light bullets are a waste of powder with the 300 win mag.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 I haven’t definitely decided on anything. Just curious what your thoughts were.
But isn't engineered bullet-expansion an attempt to maximize the bullet's sectional density upon contact (for maximum damage) while minimizing the bullet's sectional density in the air (for best aerodynamics)?
An easy test if a bullet's sectional density matters for killing power: shoot a FMJ .30-06 bullet into a broadside deer's chest, then shoot a hollow-point .30-06 bullet into a broadside deer's chest. Compare the damage.
Personally, I've suspected for several years now that hollowpoint bullet technology is a gimmick. The US military never adopted hollowpoints and our infantry seem to be doing fine.
The military is not allowed to use hollow points or any other expanding bullets.
No. Modern hunting bullets (not rebranded target bullets) are designed to provide controlled expansion, straight tracking, and mass retention. The ability to retain mass is more critical to penetration than sectional density. Modern mono and bonded bullets are all great penetrators for caliber, making SD a mute point for the most part. Hornady and Berger throw around SDs and BCs to convince novice hunters to use target bullets that perform poorly on game.
@@NCWoodlandRoamer The military has been using the Sierra Matchkings (hollow points) in Sniper ammo for over 30 years. Some liberals tried to sue the US military for using them in 1990, but lost because the US congress never ratified the Hague convention and is not bound it.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 Oh yes, you are correct. I had forgotten about snipers using match kings but I did not know that congress had never ratified The Hague convention.
Load FMJ into chamber. Shoot FMJ into deer. Get caught shooting FMJ into deer. Go to jail
Too much velocity (>2,700fps on impact) destroys good meat, isn't it, Sir?
To an extent, yes. Bullet construction also has a lot to do with that. A Nosler BT at 2300fps can destroy an entire shoulder, where a TTSX at 2800fps might do minimal meat damage. But, given the exact same bullets of the same weight and caliber, the faster one will damage more meat because it will transfer more energy throughout the wound channel.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113,Thank You, Sir, for your input.
Velocity times mass.
There ya go, I saved you 13 minutes.
Your equation for KE is wrong.
Put away your calculator... Nailed it
I have been fascinated in the past with the Killing Power Score that was developed by Chuck Hawks. Are you familiar with it? The formula he came up with was KPS= Energy x Sectional Density x Cross Sectional Area. He suggested that in order to kill Class 2 game, a score of at least 12.5 at 100 yards was advisable. Per his chart online (Google it if you wish) that would rule out some cartridges I myself have serious doubts about such as .223 Rem, .223 WSSM, .30 Carbine, and marginal would be the .357 Magnum. This score seems to fall victim to some of the things you talked about here, what are your thoughts?
Chuck hawks formula was yet another Quasi-scientific attempt to quantify killing potential of a cartridge. Again, it puts too much emphasis on SD (which shouldn't be part of the equation at all).
Great video!
Well said.