SES: The Future of Lithium Metal Battery Technology
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- čas přidán 30. 03. 2023
- Sandy and Cory meet with Dr. Qichao Hu, founder and CEO of SES - Li -Metal Batteries and got a tour of their lab.
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#SES #LithiumMetal #Batteries - Zábava
Fascinating view from behind the doors. You rarely see such detailed videos from inside high-tech companies.
Munro Live is always out investigating the cutting edge of technology. This is a fast moving target 🎯. Thanks for sharing with those of us that can’t access this information 🎉
Thanks for watching
@@MunroLive thanks to all of you for enlightening us
Thank you Sandy, Cory & Dr Hu for this video. It is rare to be able to eavesdrop on such a presentation and tour.
This was sooo good! The whole team, the CEO, so transparent and well spoken. Eager to share their knowledge and rightfully proud of the science and innovation. At a certain point the CEO's manner of speech reminded me of Elon. In a good way. I wish SES all the best!
Thanks to everyone involved in the making of this content. SES seems to really have their ducks in a row. As always, I appreciate the peek behind the curtains.
Note: edited to correct the word “peak” to the proper word “peek”. Thank you to the twunt level internet spell checker for pointing out this minor/meaningless error in my attention to detail.
... and the peek...
Or did you mean the teepee in Sandy's trousers?
@@gregbailey45 Glad I finally found the internet proof reader. Good job, never miss an opportunity to be an ass. I bet you’ve got a lot of options to correct people everyday, so I just want to thank you for addressing my post and douche bagging it up.
Pedantic is such a wonderful word!
Great seeing the emerging technology ... Thank you Munro and SES
What a great, interesting, informative vid. These guys are building a better mousetrap. They are not afraid to expose their means and methods. Everyone moves forward.
They are NOT exposing anything, or any worth, are you crazy? Oy vey....
Ideas alone are worthless... it's the implementaion of ideas... which is the hard part... that creates value.
@@j.6756 And being able to make in volume to be practical....and priced right.
Great to have SES be "open" and see their R&D. Key things were (to me).
1. Energy density 480Wh/kg. Vs 240 for Tesla LiOn at the cell, and 180 or so for Tesla at the pack level. (The pack is the important number)
2. Form factor can vary depending on end use. Providing safety is designed in.
3. Sodium ion currently is about 100Wh/kg, although HiNa Batteries say that they can get to 200. Which is fine for city driving.
4. Aircraft Inc VTOL are cost effective now with existing 200Wh/kg. Going to blow the socks off planes at $1500 per kg weight saving. That's $1.5m per tonne. Heart Aerospace with their ES19 or Wright with their BAe146 will love it. 70% of all plane trips are under 1 hour.
Thank you for this post. I was wondering about the energy gain vs. LiOn.
200Wh/kg is a very good number even for highway driving, there are 300-320 miles WLTP range cars with LFP batteries which currently have 160-200Wh/kg energy density (at least the last generation of CATL/BYD/Geely)
A great deep dive! The Limiting Factor channel will love this. Thank you so much.
Glad you enjoy it!
From this whole video the most important point I lifted is that they are trying to keep their process as close to existing lithium ion manufacturing as possible. I know Sandy was disappointed they arnt doing total dry electrode, but it is my understanding that Tesla hasnt sorted out dry anode yet either. SES could change over to a dry cathode plant, keep this process for their anode, and gain the same advantages Tesla has for cathodes. Sandy was also disappointed that it isnt a cylindrical cell, but there doesnt seem to be anything about their process that is form factor dependant. Being based as close as possible on existing cell manufacturing means that they could expand into cylindrical cells just as easily as any lithium ion cell manufacturer. They also seem to be focusing their company organization on licensing their technology to other manufacturers and providing the equipment and people to make that happen. That is very exciting.
Love it!! making their own molecule for the metal electrolyte. That is the innovation we need as human beings.
Awesome talk all around. I wish more companies were this open with the public.
No comment on unit cost/electrolyte for Lit metal in comparison to Lit ion.
I always liked the scientific method. It's challenging to disprove your own theories, and accept failures as progress. That's how I try to think because I make plenty of mistakes trying to refine my personal projects. No one I know understands the learning that comes with being wrong. It's inspiring to be reminded that there are very smart people out there who make a living making thoughtful mistakes. Unfortunately I got beat quite a bit as a child for making mistakes, messes, missing details in my chores. I'm old now and it holds me back to this day. I'll never reach my potential because I perceive criticism as a potential attack. So remember boys and girls, tip your cashiers and don't beat your kids.
LOVE THE SHOW 👏👏👏......HOPE EVERYONE HAS A BEAUTIFUL FRIDAY...
This collaborative approach is refreshing. Hoping to see more of this between and amongst companies. Most companies are driven by greed and control. These guys are not and neither is Elong Musk... better future ahead as more companies take this approach to doing business.
Thanks for the tour, very insightful!
Our pleasure!
Interesting to see if these guys can come up with a light weight, reasonable cost, energy dense battery with high cycle lift that can perform well at high and low temperatures...in that case some big manufacturer that thinks the process can be scaled up for commercial use will snap up the whole outfit for a LOT of money. This is going on all over the world, and a few will hit the jackpot. Thanks for sharing! Amusing comments from those that don't know anything about batteries, material science, or manufacturing.
Hmm, you don't want much, do you?
"Reasonable cost" is relative, especially in aerospace. It is also relative when you are talking about a dramatic improvement in energy density. You cant compare dollars to dollars when it means a much lighter vehicle and less packaging, or a dramatic boost in charge life.
He also admitted that sodium ion is an exciting technology. Because while the fans think there will be one perfect battery to rule them all, the pragmatists understand that in reality what we need is at least half-a-dozen different battery technologies that are tailor fit for application. Stable storage has completely different requirements than EVTOL has completely different requirements than a low cost mass market EV has completely different requirements than say heavy mining equiptment has different requirements than handheld digitial devices. Where we started out with one decent technology 2 decades ago: lithium ion... we are destined to end up with a diverse array.
And remember, a diversification of battery technologies is not just good in terms of matching cost and performance to purpose, its good in terms of diversifying the raw materials used. It means that we may actually need far less lithium or nickel than we thought we needed a few years ago. (Although these lithium metal batteries promise a big jump in lithium demand, sodium ion may balance it out). And diversification of materials is also really good for the markets because what we absolutely do not need is a handful of commodities investors hedging the entire future of humanity to line their own pockets by manipulating the price of one or two metals.
@@patreekotime4578 Right on.
Will be interesting to see the breakthroughs come to EV. Probably racing first. Should trickle down to a consumer jetson roadster in about twenty years. Who wouldn't want a lightweight electric miata with a thousand horses, that could hover and do a WIG down rivers and across bays? It's the first thing I will order when teslabots have revolutionized the economy and the age of abundance and all that. I will just call up GPT47 and tell it my parameters: two weeks later it will show up in my home driveway (now my home staging area/spaceport).
Great insight, thank you Monroe Live ! :)
Thanks for watching, Carlos!
Wow! Amazing Good Educational video!
Really like the tour, so frank and welcome. Never seen your like that before.
Might SES succeed and give us solid state battery 👍
It is one of the most informative and invaluable video in YoutTube. Wish the best for SES & Thank you Munro.
So many news stories about battery breakthroughs that never get a second story. They must not be able to leave the lab. With so many people working on it, a real breakthrough that can be mass produced will happen someday.
re: "With so many people working on it, a real breakthrough that can be mass produced will happen someday." well that or the "breakthrough" has ALREADY HAPPENED (ref: "Johnny B. Good" circa 1980) and what everyone is actually bumping against is the "hard wall of reality" unfortunately known as the LAW OF DIMINISHING RETURNS. because: The Myth of Progress.
Fascinating💪 and THANK YOU ! 🙏
Great walk-through of a 'energy-storage' laboratory at SES . Leveraging the science of national laboratories and practical engineering considerations; real-world applications.
A lesson from my 'applied-science' engineering; HEAT and PRESSURE must be factored into any 'energy' calculations, and the resources/chemistry of energy capture/storage/delivery is changing rapidly. I can imagine that "Team Musk/Tesla" is already using AI much more effectively than 1% success-rate. The SES 'collaboration-model', though impressive, is more reliant on negotiating different objectives, for specific applications, but mass-production for consumer market's is limited.
Thanks to SES and Munro for the tour.
Great content, makes CZcams worth watching
Very insightful vid Thnks Sandy
Synthwave in a Munro Video, 🎉🎉🎉
I like the nice intro no-comment setup, a good introduction on what subject is there.
Best insight I’ve seen on battery research!
Thank you, Sandy! Really interesting video!
awesome! thanks 4 video!
Our pleasure!
The SES CEO speaks very much like Elon Musk. Great video, Sandy.
I thought he stuttered more than Sandy does. I had to turn the volume up because he's such a soft talker. And none of the employees smile, like they are from North Korea or something.
Lithium is an awesome space and future potential.
Superb insight to out future.
I believe it when I see it (in a large number of vehicles)
Thank you Sandy for educating me.
That was great! I know that the US can figure out cleaner refining. I got hooked on ebikes a couple of years ago and am interested in batteries. There are so many new battery technologies. 18650's and 2170's are mostly what ebikes use. They're getting cheaper, but I hope to have access to lighter batteries in the near future even if they cost more.
You know its going to be good with a cool 80's synth intro....
Thank you!
You're welcome!
@@MunroLive
Thanks for the update.
Looks as though you've attracted a lot of the "internet experts" unable, or unwilling to understand that "there's more than one way to skin a cat".
I'm grateful that you're showing us the diversity of the technologies available.
.
Keep up the good work!
Their top investor is General Motors so you know they are banking on SES being successful. This is essentially second generation Ultium.
yup $139 Million as of April 2021, so 2 years ago.
A summary to get an idea what they are focused on wouldn't go amiss.
Interesting didn't know they did research in the US as well!
WoW amazing 🙏
Honestly I feel like a battery nerd, But we all know that, incremental improvement's with battery technology, multiplies the effects of the overall vehicle performance. So interesting
Batteries will get very interesting IMHO, but wouldn't it be great if we could just get rid of batteries for EVs? Like if there was some kind of way to lay cheap induction matrices in roadways or along them, or just broadcast power like Tesla had envisioned. I mean if Nikolai was running Tesla, do you think they would be using batteries?
@@SkyRiver1 totally, they say the first thing they confiscated was Tesla's wireless charging. Free energy is not something allowed to live
@@SkyRiver1 You really think in a world where people are burning down 5G cell phone towers people would be up for that? Also, losses on inductive charging means that it would just never be very efficient. So either cars would have to get dramatically lighter or energy would have to suddenly become dramatically more plentiful.
Closed captions would be super helpful especially when masks are worn.
CZcams has auto subtitles. Look for the 'CC" button. Tap the screen... look in the upper right hand corner.
A little SES Magic woud work well in "The Round." Use Green Tough to Cradle The Stuff.
If they are using perforated Ti for weight reduction, there might be a case for perforated Cu as an intermediate solution in some instances.
"a battery that recharges from its environment"
Good strategy. Like regenerative braking.
@@gregbailey45
Well,...im thinking about how hot solar panels get,...that was my first thought
imagine a Solar Panel with one or more steps in the manufacturing chain that made a 500 watt solar panel into a a 12X500watt/hr panel? It would integrate the "storage" into the "capture" and eliminate the the current "remote" storage footprint.
"the best part is no part"
further,...the battery packed solar panel uses the Temperature Delta to moderate the temperature of the collection providing cooling or heat to maximize the efficiency of the capture aspect
Im betting that a drilling rig gets much hotter than a solar panel.
EVTOL for lithium metal with titanium collector electroplated in a thin layer of palladium or platinum for longer life :)
Please pay attention to mic and audio quality of the videos when shooting outside Munro labs make the participants wear good quality microphones.
Sorry, we weren’t excepting that many people to be speaking, had to use the iPhone audio for some of it.
@@MunroLive The audio is perfectly acceptable. He is being pedantic.
My hearing is half gone and I could hear just fine.
Just hit the closed captioning button bud
feels good see gov finally spend money on right place ,great story
But look Where They're Building Them Thus Giving Away American Taxpayer Innovation For Private Profits . Now Imagine This Done Thousands Of Times Over .
Federal funding priorities and MIT's budget
Mar 27, 2017 - The document is far from a finished budget; Congress will shape the final terms. But because we rely on federal funding for 66% of our campus ..
Government spending on research has produced huge breakthroughs. The human genome project would never have happened without government funding.
From what you have seen, sandy how hard mass production would be for this technology?
I like SES and hope they succeed, but I see some big hurdles for them to make this battery mass market.
First is how they are making the lithium metal. Current production techniques are very toxic and expensive. Do they have a new process that is cheaper and cleaner? Current methods are actually banned in the USA.
Second is the way they attach the lithium metal. At the microscopic level, you won't get great contact with the current collector, and that's why I think they need so much pressure. This can cause heavier weight and limitations with production. They might be able to produce for small niche applications next year but I don't see automotive adoption in 2026 due to volumes needed.
There is another company out of Boston that spun out of the same lab as SES, that is making lithium metal directly onto copper in a fashion that uses less energy and not using toxic materials to do so. I think that idea has more mass market potential as they also claim that they can use low quality sources of lithium input to make the pure lithium metal.
I really think the future of batteries js lithium metal as it has the highest potential out there and is safe, but we have a long way to go before we can buy it in our cars.
Very good as normal.
Lol.. "adds a... "s"... er... "tremendous"... amount of money"... really quick thinking Sandy...
Now we have a new thesaurus suggestion for "sheet load"....lol... ❤
So I'm going to assume that they aren't testing solid electrolyte materials. Otherwise they would be advertising their solid state battery everywhere.
Great to see that humans finally move forward with better batteries.
Plug in your lifpak 20/20E I hear it beeping in the background in the cell manufacturing portion of the video
To take something like this which is at lab research level to mass production takes many years and billions of dollars. That's if the technology works at mass scale and if the costs can be driven down.
Scientific progress lots of failures then finally success. Awesome!!!!!
👍👍
Time to get hold of a first generTion tesla 4680 battery production line
Framing is on point though 🤌🏻
Thanks!
Looks like there's plenty of options for the future, ultra high tech Lithium, Sodium-ion batteries being developed which eventually slash battery prices due to the cheapness of sodium, and more development I've seen but can't name of the top of my head. But there's plenty brainpower pouring over this and eventually batteries will be able to power everything but rockets. And even some of them already use high tech lithium batteries to power the turbopumps and other power hungry systems around the rocket engines.
Natural Gas for turbine engine 62% efficient like those used in new power plants for big ships. It would be a giant step forward.
????? Why would you want to be way less efficient than electric drive????
@@ptrsrrll It's a stop gap measure on a low priority problem - compared to pollution in the city. A leap forward and if they can save money 💵🤑 someone might just do it without being compelled.
@@suggesttwo Electric drive for Planes and Ships has already started. Hope you don't work for the Oil/Gas industry..
@@ptrsrrll Nope. Natural Gas is a great stop gap measure while we build enough renewable power plants electricity drops low. If everything was electric the grid would melt.
Yeah, like a kit to convert my truck to fly !
He gave him a free tip on using electric linear actuator for better pressure control instead of hydraulic and pneumatic and the researcher reject it!
Don't know if he so much "rejected it", more like he considered it irrelevant in his machine's case.
He said theyve been though several iterations of different equipment. Maybe for a prototyping this is good enough.
They really focusing on vtols and military drones and space applications
You don't need new material, you just need a ceramic separator.
Pretty long video but interesting stuff
👍🏻
Am curious what A, B and C sample mean?
They represent successive stages in scaling the battery tech for high volume manufacturing.
Very interesting 👍. Lots of 👁🗨 🍬 more like window shopping for a shopaholic.
What about space applications?
Why roots in Sanghai (China) & South Korea?
Exec Summary: A "Lab Curiosity" in advanced development for expensive, light weight batteries for low volume Military and Aeronautical uses. Characteristics Summary: Wet electrolyte, Wet processing, Piece Part manufacturing, Expensive materials (Platinum, Lithium sheet and Nickel), large expansion co-efficient. Small production perhaps in 5-7 years. Maybe perfect for flying cars in >30 years....maybe. Best of luck. Cory: perhaps edit this to < 10 minutes, write a concise descriptive script and do a voice over narration.
Disagree about editing it to less than 10 minutes. Munro Live viewers are interested in the details and science. You can always skip the parts you're not interested in
I guess you were too busy summarizing to pay attention to what was actually said. Manufacturing and chemistry is designed purposefully to be a modification of existing lithoum ion production lines. This will make it easier for big battery companies who want to license their technology to do so within contraints of existing manufacturing. This will make scaling dramatically faster than almost any other new battery tech Ive seen anyone talking about. He also mentioned several automotive partners who are interested in them for validation. The big issue with timelines is not when they can get to production, but when various regulatory bodies are satisfied with the safety.
@@patreekotime4578 If you listen carefully and understand what they were saying, the battery is not suitable for Roll-to-Roll Processing, which is needed for economical, high volume manufacturing. They were rereferring to, and showing, stacked planar cells which could use some of the current pouch / prismatic manufacturing techniques, not cylindrical like Tesla, Panasonic, and others. They also described a triple wet process which they are going to do in Korea to avoid making the difficult and necessary clean up of the toxic solvents required in the US. They are talking about canister cell, because it requires pressure on the layers to accommodate the thermal expansion during charging and discharging. The expensive Platinum grid electrode shown is specifically designed for light weight for use in aircraft, which they mention several times. Sure there is "interest" from automotive people, as in all battery technologies. If there was any possibility that this could be made in volume, efficiently and affordably, they would have large commitments or have been bought by someone already. These will never be used in automotive applications, as Sandy realizes and laments a few times.
Yeah.. I see why Sandy needed to down that whole coffee cup within the first 5 minutes..
That's kind of poetic, their batteries go started under the ground and are going up in the air.
When sandy doesn’t seem quite impressed
For those not familiar with physics and chemistry, and engineering, this video may seem boring.
You should of skipped it then pal.
@Al Daley
Looks like you've upset at least one "social media expert"!
(I agree with you)
Their loss.
My Physics and Chemistry is high school + lifetime curiosity.
Anyone bored by watching this doesn't belong on the planet.
@@dalemoore11 "of"? What dialect is that?
I would think this whole channel would be boring to someone like that except for the handful of gimmick videos where they burned stuff or tossed things off the roof.
Maybe those rode wireless mic might better than lapel with wire.
No. Nothing beats lav/lapel mics for consistency and clarity. When camera pans off subject or subject turns away from camera you are totally screwed (which is what happened here) unless you have a dedicated audio (A1 A2) person booming the entire time. Audio cannot be taken for granted when doing "walk and talks". This is why there's an entire industry devoted to capturing audio properly. Too many wannabes think audio is simple and think a "shotgun mic" or something similar is the answer. I've been in this industry too many decades trying to disabuse these attitudes. Sorry for the rant.
Nice intro, audio could use a little work 😜
Working on it
imagine aptera get those bateries
Sun, April 2, 2023 at 12:12 PM EDT
(Reuters) - Tesla Inc on Sunday missed estimates for first-quarter deliveries as a bleak economic outlook and rising competition outweighed the electric automaker's efforts to prop up demand with price cuts.
Tesla delivered 422,875 vehicles compared with analyst expectations for 430,008 vehicles, according to Refinitiv data.
Investors have been watching CEO Elon Musk's gamble that cutting prices would stimulate sales, making up for the profit hit from eroding margins. Shares have soared more than 68% this year on hopes that Tesla would win a price war it started, although the stock remains more than 50% down from its peak in November 2021.
He gets axtra points for being named Dr. Hu 😜
Now he needs to make a Tardis
Breakthrough or bust? We'll see .....
😅😂"PLUMBING MATTERS" - when I saw the mechanical pressure devices[...heavy, spring-loaded, auto-adjustable], as Sandy might say "Wow, I nearly skeet my pants!"😁 Other than the heating/cooling systems; i.e heat-pumps, the "dynamic pressures" associated with energy will become more relevant, and I expect there will be systems to capture/store with 'pressurization-systems' that are integrated into the EV design. Such a vehicle will never sink[...sub-mode?] and has fresh water/air 'on-demand'.🤔
Wouldn't this be nice for Semi?
There's a new li'l concern called American Battery Technology Company
What is “HF?"
HF is Hydroflouric Acid. It is one of the most dangerous industrial chemical there is. Skull and Crossbones everywhere. I worked at a 3M plant that used HF in their production of some product. You always had to wear a rubber suit and rubber boots, gloves and many times breathable air. If you got liquid HF on your bare skin, a 6" x 6" square patch for example, you will be a goner. HF when if gets into your skin, will seek out calcium. This will disrupt your body and will take you out in a short period of time.
Environmentally speaking are batteries being made now worst for the environment than ice vehicle production and use?
Sandy = "hmm, I see 🤔🧐"
The titanium current collector at 19:00 makes no sense to me. Titanium is a super shitty conductor of electricity, that is just going to make your battery very inefficient unless you are using incredibly low power. Especially with the "speed holes" they've added there.
The spoon in a coffee distract me I couldn't see the video, I was worried 😂 go in eyes anytime
Do you not know how to drink?
Imagine these lighter batteries in an Aptera.... Wow! ❤️
imagine an Aptera: you will have to, cause I have never seen one.
@@SkyRiver1 at least they're getting farther in progress than Elio!
I'm donating my liver to aptera.
It'll be fine
You need more diversity in this video of batteries. I would suggest a black trans to boost your outreach.
A problem with Lithium METAL batteries is that they're more prone to self-ignite than Lithium-ion ! I'd be interested to know Munro Associates' view on the Sodium-ion batteries BYD is now using in some of their EVS actually.
They are not, though. The part that can ignite has nothing to do with the lithium but the electrolyte, and this and other companies are using non flammable electrolytes.
@@matthewmanzi9504 There are a number of plane losses that have been attributed to lithium-metal battery fires, so what's your explanation for that ? They weren't even attached to any circuitry. Just batteries in shipping cartons.
P.S. I know about the flammable electrolytes in lithium-ion batteries.
@@grahamstevenson1740 I don't think you have your facts right. The B787 problems were due to manufacturing and design problems of their Li-ion batteries. This resulted in a grounding of the aircraft, but has since been resolved. Battery fires on airplanes are now caused by Li-ion batteries primarily in consumer devices. Not Li metal. Li batteries of various chemistries can undergo thermal events while in storage, primarily due to manufacturing defects, damage, and environmental factors.
@@Lyc3600 I was referring to plane LOSSES (crashes) due to cargo fires believed to have been started by Lithium-metal batteries in shipping cartons. Yes they WERE indeed Lithium metal coin cell types.
The B787 battery overheating was obviously defective design causing a 'hot spot' in the pack. That battery should have been long and flat to cool properly not a cube shape but Boeing 's designs are shitty these days !
LFP batteries are much less flammable. I think it should be used in most applications. Save the nickel cobalt for more high performance applications.
Watch at 1.25x speed
Safety, especially in an aviation platform, is #1. If you don’t lean on the safety side vs performance.. you’re going to land in a steaming pile of shit
3D printing.
Great video, I'm kind of tired of the Toyota half assing it, but this sort of thing is really inspiring .
Camera op did a great job considering the number of people and subjects of interest in the confined areas he had to cover.
re: "Great video, I'm kind of tired of the Toyota half assing it" no worries the feeling's likely mutual. the Japanese are tired you bossing them around and trying to tell them what to do (when they are the one's who control of the Means of Production and you control NOTHING).
@@phillyphil1513 No point controlling production, if no one is buying what you've produced.
Their data sheets show very poor cycle life, 200+ cycles for the 50ah cell.
Talk is cheap,,Ill believe it when its real 😊