GNOME May Drop Xorg & Go WAYLAND ONLY!?!
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- čas přidán 10. 10. 2023
- People know that one day GNOME is going to fully drop Xorg support and only have a Wayland sesssion but is it time to do so, well maybe not but one GNOME contributor is certainly pushing towards that direction with 2 new merge requests dropping X11 support
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GNOME Remove X11 Target: gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-...
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After that final trainwreck the GNOME Gitlab admin stepped in and left a comment:
Hi everyone, I would like to remind you of the expectations we have here to engage in a constructive manner, following the guidelines of the community standards of the CoC of GNOME.
Jordan while I might be missing some context here for what you mentioned, I don't think the way you're handling this thread is appropiate. Sometimes it's better to avoid engaging when emotions are high, or simply stating what you think the best approach is and agree to disagree. Linking to previous discussions and stating that you still have the same opinion could also be a way to handle this. But please, don't repeat the way this has been handled here.
That there are different expectations by different people here is responsibility for us of all to solve, and the best way to do that is not to throw shade to each other, but rather to recognize what desired expectations everyone has, while allowing the maintainers of the project to make a decision based on that input.
@@Batwam0As a developer myself, I understand dropping features because of a lack of development resources, however removing something that actively works with very low maintenance cost in favor of something that doesn't even have 80% feature parity disgusts me.
This whole situation seems to me like decisions for the sake of making decisions - to be the one that gets tick another box on the checklist. No hate to Jordan, I've done it too, but I think he needs to watch his ego a bit. Being able to boast about being the one behind big changes feels great, but it should never come at the cost of the user experience.
@@Zullfix This. I've seen this all too often (especially in dying companies). Tick off checkboxes (whilst skipping over completing "minor" tasks) so it looks like progress is being made even though it makes things worse in the long term.
Of course GNOME would refer to their CoC for this. I can't stand how everything GNOME has to be so political and authoritarian for everything these days. It's like they're owned by some big corporation trying to push commercial software, asserting control over every part of the development cycle, yet pretending to be welcoming to new developers. Which is especially bad considering the money then spend on outreach projects, which brings people into an environment not at all representative of the rest of the FLOSS ecosystem.
I realize I'm probably venting years of frustration in this comment but it's just so mentally draining to even read documentation for GNOME/GTK. KDE/Qt on the other hand definitely feels like it's developed by passionate people having fun, sometimes things break and not every solution is perfect, but there are new features all the time and you can customize anything.
Glad to see my VR comments mentioned, I seriously don't understand why it works on EVERYTHING except GNOME's Wayland session, and it's been just sitting there for years waiting to be implemented.
They’ve even had some demo with it working, where somebody showed it off if I’m not mistaken… they originally intended to merge it for gnome 42 I think… and here we are with Gnome 45 still not having it merged… at least they finally handle the cursor in its own thread, on weak machines the cursor is incredibly laggy when you mouse over more heavy parts of the UI…
pretty simple: it takes developers time to implement it. Someone needs to come around who both understands what is needed to do and has the time and inclination to do it...
@@autohmae yes but it’s been waiting to be merged for a while now.
It's just that they haven't implemented the Wayland protocol for drm leasing
I have a Valve-Index and had to discover that issue the hard way a few months ago on the Valve GitHub issue page.
At the end I opted to just switch everything to KDE, I didn't like GNOME's huge delay at dealing with VR issues, I didn't like their behavior at all with dealing with the accent color issues and even the very minor fact that they refuse to make terminal emulators like Kitty not have a proper text and icon into the top bar of the window.
In the end although I had a very nice time with GNOME I think they are far too conservative as DE for my taste and tend to not deal very well when tasked with modernizing quickly their stack. Having said that nothing against the GNOME devs, stuff like the GNOME circle to obtain an homogeneous looking desktop is a golden idea, it's just that the single benefit it brings it's not enough to convince me to stay with them.
Hopefully a new administration will come and push on the accelerator for them, sad to say but I expected a bit more from them.. All in all wish them the best, hopefully one day they will catch up with the current times and I can go back to GNOME.
Fun fact: Steam has a "-pipewire" option that captures your screen on launch using pipewire, and that makes Steam streaming on Wayland possible.
Valve really needs to create a list of Steam flags by now...
I think it would be very nice from the GNOME people to publicly declare that "dropping X11 session will not be on the table until Wayland issues A, B, C and D are resolved. After that, however, it will happen very very soon." That would be fair and sensible IMHO.
Yes, but the problem also is that the response to "A, B and C missing is an issue for me" is "No you don't need A, B and C, these features are not needed and you don't need to use them". Which, some of them like VRR, yeah, technically not having it does not break anything, but on the other hand why would anyone willingly have a worse experience.
@@ScarfmonsterWRMaybe switching to Wayland will force companies like Nvidia to support vrr on Wayland though, if that's what most people are using.
@@blisphul8084 Maybe, though I dunno that I like the prospect of making users' experiences worse just to force a company's hand especially when that same company has shown how slow they are to adapt to Wayland. There's also the issue that people stuck on legacy driver versions would be screwed over unless nvidia backports the feature, which seems doubtful. I guess there's the argument of "that's what you signed up for by buying nvidia" but I'd imagine a fair number of people on nvidia cards are recent converts from Windows where the suitability of a GPU on Linux wasn't even factored into their purchasing decision. Regardless, it's probably far enough off that these issues will have time to be ironed out, I just hope everyone involved can understand what their users actually need.
@@blisphul8084or they'll just drop linux support entirely for consumer cards. We are 0.1% of the user base afterall.
Hey I made it into a video! (for a brief moment lol) I just want to say that game streaming on Hyprland works perfectly well, even without Gamescope, but I didn't wanna be the "works on my machine" person
I understand that Budgie/Pantheon are in a bad position in this whole mess and I can sympathize with them, but at the same time I find it hard to feel sorry for them. GNOME devs, for a good part, absolutely do not give a rat's ass about other projects and the writing's been on the wall for MANY years that they're absolutely willing to break other projects to have their way. And that usually worked out for them as well, considering most distros defaulted to it.
Unfortunately (for them) it seems that the mood has shifted in the last two years, few people openly support Red Hat's shenanigans and Valve has money riding on proper Wayland support.
And that goes for Cinnamon too, because Muffin is based on Mutter.
I guess System76 knew when to fold em
its not gnomes job to cater to other projects. these are the issues with fragmentation that some people seem to think is a good thing
@@famousmwofficial8046 The thing is that it used to cater. That's why there's still looming expectation it will do so. I guess they didn't put a bright flashing light "Starting from this version, we don't care anymore" or something like that.
@@famousmwofficial8046 Yeah because all working under the same project is so much better and more reliable. What happens when the sproject takes bad decisions
As a KDE user, all I can say is: Oh look, the gnomes are fighting again!
* sits in my KDE plasma lawn chair with umbrella drink to watch Gnome *
@@marcusjohansson668 biggest bucket they got
Can confirm Michael was a voice of reason in that conversation. I appreciate him proposing GNOME 48 for the removal of that code, hopefully that will be good enough for GNOME users and the usecases raised that need to be addressed. While it would have preferred to have been avoided, in the case of Buddies of Budgie, we have gone ahead and opted to fork gnome-session into budgie-session, so we'll have to spend a fair bit of time cleaning that up, preventing packaging and naming conflicts, and making it suitable for Budgie 10 (on top of GNOME's stack e.g. GNOME Settings Daemon, GTK, and Mutter). This is objectively going to impact our pace in moving to Wayland. We're a small team and instead of spending time on porting various parts of the codebase over to supporting Wayland, we'll need to spend time on this, only to have to rip it all out for 11 since none of it will be applicable, we'll be using our own daemon, different toolkit, non-Mutter, and so forth. But it is what it is 🤷
Hats off on the work y’all are doing for 11. Excited for what you’re putting into it! Sucks that this is so negatively affecting you, though.
Can you just leave it until they actually merge this change? Maybe pin the version as a dependency?
It's probably better to have a soft fork in place now rather than wait until the last minute
@GreatArabClensing : You should pay more attention to your own projects than other people's.
As much as I love budgie and Solus and have been using it since Solus version 1. You can't really expect gnome to wait for down stream independent projects, I guess forking it for now is the best solution, besides from putting a total freeze on the current budgie version and focusing on wayland
VRR support, NVIDIA support, colour support, VR support. I need all of these ready compatible Wayland 😅, I'm getting so desperate I'm considering learning how to fix it
GameScope has VRR support, KDE is getting or has all of the features you mentioned, and Nvidia support is kind of already here/kind of on the way (newer drivers are busted, driver 525 is recommended).
VRR works just fine on Gnome with the patches applied. It's similar to the triple buffering patches developed by Canonical that have some corner cases so it's waiting to be merged for years. Ubuntu already ships with it enabled by default.
Iirc the reason Gnome doesn't merge vrr is that if the mouse cursor is visible, the refresh rate gets locked to the max monitor refresh rate. This is also the case on all other DE's like KDE, sway and hyprland but it isn't an issue in fullscreen fps games like Counter-Strike, where no cursor is visible.
To fix this issue there's work to do in other components of the linux driver stack, so it'll probably take a while for Gnome to merge this.
Gnome is a prime example of perfect being the enemy of good.
X11 will still be around for a while for as long as users need it (like you!) so while it might get more annoying for users like you to stay on x11, you'll still have your features until the bitter end.
Also, the closer we get to killing x11 once and for all, Wayland is getting pushed harder to fix the issues left.
fyi folks, just because GNOME and KDE are going to deprecate X11, there will ALWAYS be a distro and desktop with x11 in some form because even if Wayland fixes everything, someone will maintain an x11 distro for the edge cases that people need.
Seeing all these issues I feel like the Hyprland contributors are really spoiling us so hard lol.
Also thank the wlroots devs for putting together that library
I'm still holding out for COSMIC to have a good Wayland implementation without some of the annoyances I've had from KDE
what annoyances?
@@vilian9185 some of mine: KWin crashing, drag and drop often misbehaving
@@vilian9185The bugs and random app crashes.
For one, locale isn't respected as well as GNOME+Ubuntu based distros; KDE's language selector doesn't always change the locales of programs I use, especially when Flatpak is involved
Also online accounts have never worked as well as on GNOME@@vilian9185
Cosmic being build from the ground up in Wayland is a good start.
Global hotkeys are also nice for musicplayers (I use deadbeef). Brodie, good luck with that heat, we just started autumn but it still is quite warm here (yesterday 24 degrees C).
No need to implement this bs to control music player. Gnome has MPRIS support and there is a mpris plugin for deadbeef
I must be missing something major
I have no idea why global hotkeys would ever be a provide. I have no qualms with 2 applications accepting input for the same keybind. I simply do not care. It's often better to have a doube bind that to create a convoluted (fragile) system that tries to dynamically decide which app to block
I was honestly waiting for you cover this, well done! I was following this Merge Request as it was unfolding 😆
The thing I'm hoping once people are largely forced on to Wayland, is that somebody will have a proper rethink about network-transparent GUIs and the best way to do them. They don't need to be low level like X11 is. They can have a modern drawing API (think what QPainter offers, and likely something for 3D, kind of like WebGL or something). Generally look at the use cases where you'd want an app running on machine A and displaying on B, and what would make it as easy as possible to program.
Another relevant part of the picture that wasn’t yet mentioned: HiDPI support & fractional scaling on Wayland with any of: GNOME, KDE, Sway, Cinnamon, Xfce, LXQT, LXDE, Budgie, etc…
I’m curious as to what others experience has been with HiDPI displays (>=168 DPI). Also specifically in the ranges of (167 < DPI < 192), and DPI >= 192
I actually use fractional scaling on KDE Wayland (my laptop's a 8th gen Lenovo Yoga 7i), and so far it works great on it! I got the scaling set to 125%. I remember I used Wayland a couple of years ago on my Thinkpad Yoga (also had to use fractional scaling for it) and it was buggy then. From what I can tell, KDE has done a lot to get Wayland more polished so I can actually use it full time on it.
This kind of shit is why even though I like a lot of things about GNOME, I will probably be moving to another desktop sometime next year. Last time I tried Hyprland was a pretty great experience, but I wanna wait for Plasma 6, since that release seems to be addressing my primary gripes with that desktop. Also, Cosmic beta is coming out next year as I understand, which I also wanna try out.
Cause this isn't an isolated incident with GNOME. The devs threw a fit when people proposed SSD for the Wayland session, they threw a fit again when xdg accent colors was being worked on, they still don't even have an option for the temporary XWayland fractional scaling fix, etc. and this stuff harms user experience.
This video is making me realize how gnome drags its feet when it comes to getting things implimented. All the more reason to keep working on my hyprland install and make the switch.
Broodie, this is perfect timing I'm just going to sleep and your videos are perfect for that
If you can sleep to my voice that's pretty impressive
Using Gamescope from TTY and just being able to SYSRQ into keyboard raw and just pressing CTRL+ALT+F1 to go back to my hyprland session is incredible.
ayo??? would love to do that. Any config options or particular packages needed for that? (other than gamescope obv)
@@sukidable No, you just need to enable sysrq in /proc/sys/kernel/sysrq=1
Press alt+print screen+r. Press Ctrl+alt+F2. Login as your user and run literally any application that supports X under gamescope. Eg. gamescope looking-glass-client. Your regular desktop session/login manager is usually in either F8 or F1.
I'm still waiting for hyprland allow_tearing in 0.31 to hit the official gentoo repos, but this bypasses the potential for you being forced to use wayland only for games.
As much as I don't care for GNOME and how they interact with others, I *do* actually actually agree with them on the situation with Budgie/Pantheon/etc. Budgie is leveraging GNOME code. If GNOME doesn't want to maintain it any more, it falls on Budgie to do so. Doubly so when it is known that Budgie wants to remove their dependence on GNOME code - why help someone who doesn't want to deal with you any more? I feel bad for those desktops, but Joshua in particular should know that can happen when you depend on another project, especially when that project is GNOME.
Well if they do that that's a reason why it won't use gnome. Unfortunately there's important things that still break on Wayland for me. I'll happily switch once they fix it. But until then I can't use Wayland. Well I could but I would just end up switching back and forth and it's really not worth it to me.
That's crazy!
Wayland's not ready but we _really_ want to use it so let's just not allow using X. Not a big deal, in another decade Wayland should be working. Really. We promise (again).
Now it would be great if the #100 was the final drop draft mr.
A number milestone for another big milestone in gnome.
Glad to use dwm lol. I don't wanna go through the hassle of replacing Xorg for Xway, because thanks Nvidia.
You know, its a shame because I quite like the design of a lot of Gnome apps with Libadwaita, but holy hell I swear looking at the way the Gnome devs respond is... disheartening to say the least. Now I can get that at the end of the day, we're all human, and frustration / rising emotions are part of the human condition - but any time I hear about drama going on in issue trackers its almost *always* involving Gnome.
Gnome is a beautiful desktop, and while I may not always agree with their choices (such as the lack of appindicator support...), this sort of drama really doesn't make Gnome look so appealing. There have been a few times when I've wanted to raise a bug report for Gnome, but didn't want to be smacked down with a "You're holding it wrong" type of response.
Man, GNOME is a pretty software stack. But i can't say their attitude about downstream/the ecosystem around their software is anything but ugly.
Here, let me get that for you:
"Man, GNOME is a pretty bloated software stack."
There, I fixed it. You're welcome. You can thank me later.
the budgie dev is viewing the gnome dev-s as one would view a water spring and not as a people who must expend their mortal lives to perform these tasks
@@terrydaktyllus1320 lol, still using gnome
gnome circle and gnome apps will work just fine though. sucks for the other desktops based on them, but it is what it is
Removing X11 would break my Steam Controller. It uses xtestfakerelativemotionevent which is uninplemented in XWayland. The Controller is not useable on Wayland without tinkering. Also I still have crashes with my GTX 970 when using Wayland. Im a 100% sure that Wayland is not ready to REPLACE X11. It still is just a good alternative.
Lol I have a similar issue but with on-screen keyboards that use xtest. XWayland is not even a solution because the key presses only reach other applications running under XWayland.
Looks like for this particular issue uinput is a good solution that doesn't depend on Wayland protocols (since it sits lower on the stack - at the kernel level). But yeah, you have to reimplement whatever thing you're using with uinput instead of xtest.
There is an xtest reimplementation for wayland
@@kebien6020The problem with everything using uinput is that it requires root right?
About your controller... Well, that sucks! About the GPU though...
Two friends and I did some thorough testing a week ago and I came to the conclusion that the GPU is at fault here. Why? Let me explain. The first one tested everything with an RTX 3050, the second friend stepped in with a 2060 and I tested everything with my old GTX 1050. The outcome was that while both the RTX 3050 and RTX 2060 run pretty much perfectly, my GTX 1050 showed the exact same issues, you pointed out. Pre-RTX NVIDIA cards have been getting basically 0 support from NVIDIA for proper Wayland support. And I personally don't think that will change anymore. So if you want Wayland to work better, you have to either upgrade to a GPU made by AMD or a newer NVIDIA one.
My conclusion is that Wayland is ready to replace X11 for most people. The reason why it's not for everyone is mainly because there are some people that still run on an older GTX card. And they will probably never support Wayland. I've never heard about the controller issue, you're having. Now that I know about that, it may be another issue for a small percentage of users.
@@d-air1 I tried uinput without thinking much about this and it didn't require root. You do need to have the uinput kernel module loaded, so some applications might ask for root to load the module? For my PoC I just crashed if the creation of the virtual device failed for whatever reason (usually the reason is that the module isn't loaded).
Edit: After tinkering some more, the reason I didn't need root was because of a udev rule that I had in my system because of another package.
Thanks for another interesting video, Brodie. Thanks for posting links to the resources you use; it provides helpful further reading and makes for a more 'interactive' experience watching your content. I also like that this is a slightly longer and more detailed video.
I stopped using Gnome when the UI went from something well known and loved to something tablet or playschool/kindergarten. I migrated to MATE desktop, which looks to be working hard on Wayland support. However, I am currently on KDE Plasma for its Wayland support even though parts of it are quite tedious to use compared with MATE. My Linux box is my second machine and runs Fedora 38 with both MATE and KDE desktops installed.
Well using KDE and Cinnamon anyway. And no Ubuntu.
Currently nvidia still cant turn of vsync in all cases (there is a bug that is planned to be fixed in 545.x.y.
The Massive performance regressions have been improved though.
Still until I see that Wayland delivers around the same performance for me as X11 without bigger pitfalls, I wont switch.
I was never really a GNOME fan to begin with (When I started tinkering with Linux I started with KDE 2), but if I had been, seeing all the videos you've put out concerning the GNOME Devs or the contentious issues they seem to get involved with, I wouldn't be anymore. They really do seem to have little care for their users or most anyone outside of their own little corner of the Linux/FOSS space.
Cinnamon will also completely break if GNOME is too quick with their X11 session removal, as Cinnamon hasn't even really started its efforts to even partially support Wayland…
Why is that? X will still be around for Cinamon.
No. Cinnamon doesn't use Mutter, it uses a forked version called Muffin. I believe it's currently based on Mutter 3.36, which is already a couple years old at this point.
Good. Not much of a reason for Cinnamon when Xfce is around.
I honestly don't see it as GNOME problem. I am ready to dunk on gnome making bad decisions, but not caring of forks is not one of them. They have their own stuff to take care of. Forks intentionally decided to go their own way with baccarat and maidens. They were not forced. If you fork gnome it's your responsibility, not theirs
@@that_leaflet Yeah, but Cinnamon is basically way to stuck in the past to even care about Wayland until it will be too late and they'll be scrambling to make a good decision when it will be too late.
On my RX6600, VR using ALVR and a quest 2 works just fine on gnome wayland.
Played just today
15:46 I wonder if they would still say the same if they were at a conference talking about this issue.
Gnome being both the roadblock in things and my way or the highway is not really shocking to me, it's one of the things I have been learning well as I have become a full time Linux user. As a user mind you I am looking forward to a Wayland world but alas I'm also having to hope that Nvidia gets their rear ends in gear as well (though worth mentioning I use KDE not Gnome)
It's a shame that GNOME has shifted into becoming the Apple of Linux DEs.
Apple at least gets their Machines and OS to work properly.
@@chrystals.4376As long as you only want to use them in the officially approved way.
The current team has been entirely hijacked by people who are doing exactly that intentionally. They don't even understand what the "shell" UX workflow was designed to do.
@@chrystals.4376 Yes, but they suck out all of your personal data leaving you with zero privacy when they do it. To me, that makes their overpriced walled-garden products entirely unusable.
good?
If gnome drops xorg ill drope gnome and go with windows manager. I use to use i3 for more than a year just for testing DE's i switched to gnome. Am not letting xorg out of my Life untill Wayland becomes functional
I just tried Wayland on Ubuntu 23.04 on a laptop running RTX 2080, and it was a complete mess. ALL of my steam games either refused to launch, or launched to a black screen.
try this for game launch option SDL_VIDEODRIVEVER=xwayland %command%
Try using gamescope
Skill issue, you need to add environment vars to everything that you want to be launched on the Nvidia GPU. There is a prime-run helper in some distros that are a shortcut.
i have a 2080s in my desktop and i have zero issues on gnome wayland in fedora...
@fintomoon Same here, except I use Plasma Wayland on an RTX 4090. It's so much better on Wayland compared to a year ago, when only XOrg was usable. In fact, XOrg on my system sometimes doesn't even work when I need to configure Proton Mail Bridge (I have to disable GPU acceleration in flatpak kcm or Flatseal otherwise the application is unusable on Wayland).
Of course the issues need to addresses, however I still think that we as a community need to move on with the times. Unlike Windows we don't need to support legacy bs, the Linux community can use this as an advantage to make something better and more robust than Windows currently offers
The reason why I switched to KDE. Not sad to have switched. Just a lot of options to configure to make it work as I like. Still using GNOME on the laptop. But I'm considering switching.
can't wait for xdc next week
I mean, as long as they don't care about gaming as a use case then that just means more people for KDE wayland which means things get better for those using it. Let them slash and burn the old if they want, there will be other more stable gaming implementations out there for those of us who like games. In fact, I suspect not supporting gaming *or* graphics pros would likely make their ticket queue drop a bit and maybe even change their overall stress levels. ;)
I would just stick with arcan for now, wayland still a mess and x11 is in maintenance mode. At least arcan is able to run both x11 and wayland applications.
some people for a long time either ingnored entire GNOME desktop philosophy or pretended it didn't matter. In the end of the day GNOME is only focused on GNOME, one can either hate it or leave it.
probably 10y is time table for hard-breaking changes, Python3 and C++11 string have similar time table when new version become finally used
GNOME should just move to a nonfree license and call it a day
together with the whole RHEL
"the voice of reason" is very wise.
Evolving is really hard, but eventually the question is that if others are using the code, and radical change is coming to get the next evolution step - what is the right thing to do. Staying and suffering from the old code, dual maintain till develops other necessary features, or just rip it and going forward. In the first case, devs should fork, and do their own way. In the second case is unnecessary weight, and patching dead code is waste of time. The best way is rip it, move away, and maximize the efforts on the new code to be seamless, and perfect in the currently missing features, and Wayland reaches the fully evolved mature state. I remember the same situation when the alsa system was first dropped because of pulse audio, and we had the same yelling - issues, bugs, but we survived. Simply please cut the first ties to X11, and make steps to move away, and ask everybody to work on the new code, to get everybody happy.
I'm pretty sure when Nvidia drivers are fully functional with Wayland is when X dies.
does wayland work well with amd?
@@haloquayleyes
@@haloquayleNo, variable refresh rate, v-sync, HDR, and a lot of software will still be broken.(I know I'm missing other graphics features that don't work as well) Although the driver compatibility is better on AMD. It definitely works better than on Nvidia. Wayland's still an unfunctional mess for a lot of workloads.
X11 won't die until they actually implement all graphics features that are missing and fix a lot of compatibility. (Software and older drivers and arm gpus) Until then there's just going to be a lot of users that can't use Wayland.
Gnome devs be like:
_Just f**k it!_
I switched to KDE a bit because steam uses it and so they will fix issues and would probably be a better experience
Screenshot tools with Wayland are a pain in the butt
They work fine on other Wayland desktops, GNOME decided to implement the portal in a really anoying way
i use it every day ready enough for me
i like how smooth everything runs on gnome, but i just dont like how the desktop "works".
Let them do it! Let all the professionals doing serious work on GNOME come to a real DE :)
KDE will welcome them with open arms.
I am a GNOME user and I use Wayland and Gaming and graphic design are definitely not ready. Some times when i play a game and try to make use of the virtual desktops the whole gnome-session hangs and i have to restart it via TTY, rarely even the keybord input freeze.
Speaking of gaming the steam client is still jank on wayland , sometimes i just see my background instead of the UI and of course lack of VR support at all.
I hope the gaming features get fixed in Wayland and also that Valve will finally make a wayland native client
I used to have problems with OBS Screen Capture (cursor moves but contents on the desktop updates 1 frame per minute or less) on Gnome-Wayland on a freshly installed system. The problem immediately went away when I switched to KDE-Wayland, and immediately dame back when I switched back to Gnome-Wayland. Now I simply can't use Gnome-Wayland any more after using Gnome on X11 for half a year because mouse clicks simply won't register in windows after they are opened for more than 20s in Wayland sessions. And now they're telling me they want to drop X11 support.
On arm x11 is still better performing for gaming. So I do use it, for example for PS2 emulation. But I can do that on any x11 desktop so I don't mind. I did get used using Gnome the last year and don't see me go back to something else. I just need application menu and places or I'd not use it.
I use GNOME on X11, as on wayland, my system just crashes all the time. This seems to be a problem with amdgpu driver, not sure. But no such issues arise in X11. So for now, wayland is just NOT an option. There's other issues with wayland too, but just flat out crashing after resume from suspend is a non-starter.
Same here. First time i had to use X11 in a long time. Having it as a fallback has been highly convenient, and itd worry me if something like this were to happen again in the future.
What kernel?
@@PeakKissShot latest Arch kernel. But it's been like this for years already
What AMD GPU are you using?
@@cameronbosch1213 I had the same problem with 2 different GPUs: rx460 and rx580
Wayland by default is fine for now I get that X11 is aging and needs to be replaced I don't deny that but I think Wayland needs a couple of years in the oven to have all the protocols finished. I'm of the opinion X11 support should be included as an option and only when Wayland is complete than we should switch or just keep it around as a legacy option and don't bother updating it anymore. Linux isn't MacOS we don't drop support for something people are actively still using
I don't think it's a matter of X11 being aging tech so much as it is Xorg losing the manpower to manage and maintain development projects.
15:40 Pun with Budgie intended?
I find it a bit weird that no one is mentioning the fact that certain Electron apps with an Nvidia card don't work on Wayland. I can understand VR and variable refresh rate support missing but regular old applications straight up not rendering correctly? This should absolutely be a blocker.
A certain industrial application that is a core part of my work suffers from this and if they were to drop X11 support Gnome would simply become unsuitable for me. Although I tested KDE too and it behaved exactly the same. This is probably an issue with the Nvidia driver, but nonetheless this still needs to be considered before dropping X entirely.
good
Push to talk not working on Wayland, does it mean Discord PTT on Sway or Hyprland is not available? If so, any workarounds?
I'm not a great fan of X11, but keeping in mind Gnome's development for the latest 13 years and how they treat basic user needs and ergonomics, I say: let them drop X11, Wayland and all *nix support alltogether and focus on the development for Windows 95. It will be better for everyone.
And make the newer code base for GNOME & GTK propietary, becuase why not! 😂
Isn't Wayland mostly broken on NVIDIA? None of this would really influence me using a web browser, some chatting and productivity apps on Fedora, yet I still think it's a good "jumpscare" to make the transitional developers get their act together.
No, Wayland is broken on Nvidia but has many other non Nvidia related issues that are universal and far from being solved. Brodie has been publishing a lot of videos on how wayland is getting better, and most have nothing to do with Nvidia support, and everything to do with programs expecting certain behaviors that Wayland is only now starting to implement. If all you do is browse the web that's ok, but for anyone that does anything else with their PCs Wayland isn't there yet. The more things you expect your PC to do, the less "here" Wayland is.
I get some flashing with a 3090 and using wayland with two monitors and a game with browsers, though I'll check again once the 24.04 LTS drops... but it was better than when this LTS first dropped. Maybe there is some setting that could be changed, but other than that, not sure.
Not for me on OpenSuse Tumbleweed with the G06 drivers. I have some weak screen tearing on one specific line of pixels (could be my configuration), but other than that I have no problems even with a high refresh rate monitor and a weird screen setup (2 landscape, 1 portrait)
The Nvidia breakage is a problem but some of it must be fixed by them. It's unfortunate but frankly there's no way to get them to care.
There's been some shifting including Plasma implimenting EGL streams and then nVidia adding support for GBM. As far as I can tell its mostly been a superficial limitation with a lot of bickering and nothing to do with actual hardware or software limitations. I'm on a really old install so I haven't been able to test personally. All I remember was mutter worked with my Ampere card but had very annoying problems with games running in low performance and having huge input delay. Basically unplayable to me. My version of KWin was not ready for consumer use under Wayland
Michael is the hero...
Time to ditch Gnome then.
I did, when GNOME 2 ended. Never looked back, I don't use that KDE bloat either.
Far too much unnecessary eye candy in both of them - fine if you're just a poseur trying to impress people looking over your shoulder or posting screenshot to r/unixporn but I have real work to do on my computers and need a fast and slick workflow that isn't wasting CPU cycles on "wobbly windows".
GNOME and KDE are for poseurs.
I've said it on every video I've watched where you've said this but the lack of tearing was a good idea. It's not even implemented exactly the same as vsync and can lead to a better experience than with vsync which is why I'm even in support of it...I'm not opposed to an option being added so long as it's an option the user controls at the compositor/DE level and not something the game/software controls but I still argue tearing is just bad...and attempting to add it is a waste of time. VRR is a whole other thing and I love the idea of VRR + wayland's mailboxing at whatever refreshrate is being used.
10:27 Gamescope has always been a bit annoying for me. Some games just plain don't use it. If I launch Cyberpunk 2077, it will launch outside of the gamescope. I've even tried launching Steam in gamescope and opening Cyberpunk from there, but Cyberpunk 2077 still escapes from gamescope and launches in its own window.
Arduino IDE doesn't work!! On Wayland.
Look, I'm a X11 user. I did not switch to Wayland yet, because of some applications or incompatibilities or what else. But I don't dislike GNOME deprecating X11. As long as KDE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Cosmic and many window managers support X11, it's a good idea to have some sort of push on at least one of these fronts. If someone really wants to use X11, they can still restore or in future switch completely to a different desktop environment (or build their own with standalone window managers, such as i3 or qtile).
It wouldn't be the first time GNOME breaks compatibility in hard fashion. So the users are used to it. :D
True, and you could always just stick with the older versions and not update too. I'm extremely bad about doing that with pretty much all software.
I gave up with gnome a while ago, they can't ever even consider working with the rest of the community about anything. If they don't want to work with the rest of the community, fine. We should ignore them as a community.
And given the push here, I don't have any faith gnome won't push it as the only option even when it is clearly not usable in a load of use cases because their way or the highway. And to the Gnome leadership, it is there way or the highway that ultimately has me not using OSX or Windows.
Honestly Wayland has been a mess for me. On a GTX 970 under Fedora it's a gamble if apps will work under Wayland (Blender can't be resized and Krita visually gets stuck on the startup screen despite the app still running fine otherwise.)
When I upgraded my system to an AMD Radeon RX 6750XT I tried to use Wayland again, and for a while it was *ok* but still janky, as there was no consistency with window title bars like with x11. Some windows used the GTK theme, some used the Adwaita light theme (even despite me using dark mode 24/7) and some apps like Blender use a generic titlebar that doesnt even follow the button position or system font settings. I recently ended up having to switch back to x11 for a different reason: for whatever reason certain apps under wayland will change the cursor size for seemingly no reason when they don't under x11. This causes my cursor to be impossibly small to see on webcord and awkwardly large on GNOME Web
If by "use dark mode" you mean you used that Gnome toggle, that only affects GTK4, install gnome-tweaks or dconf and change the legacy option to change the theme on other GTK versions.
@@benign4823 Yes, but I was also using a separate GTK theme already, and it was getting ignored exclusively under Wayland
@@PercyPanleoI don't see why it being Wayland or not affects theming, I've literally never heard of that.
Those hyprland configs that have consistent themes wouldn't even be possible if it was Wayland at fault.
At this point, I just don't think you set the same theme for both GTK4 and GTK3 and below.
But then again, Gnome devs already stated that different themes aren't supported and you're on your own, something you should've known, but conveniently left out from your first comment.
I'd wager most reading the comments don't care about KDE, but hopefully we can all agree that it's a better desktop than GNOME, and as a lifelong lazy person and long-term user of KDE, I will continue to advocate for it over anything else.
Using Gnome in Wayland on my work laptop running Ubuntu 22.04 I cant do screen sharing in Zoom. Jumping over to Popos 22.04 I CAN screen share on zoom when running Wayland. I don't know what's going on here, but at this point I'm assuming a lot of these weird Gnome/Wayland issues are just implementation.
@@Mars-wy6rz yeah I mean going into the config and enabling wayland
I don't know about wayland..
KDE still has issues with scaling it seems cannot recommend Wayland to anyone right now because of all the little annoyances that come with it.
I love gnome but I'm already on plasma for multiple reasons.
Steamdeck using KDE makes a lot more sense now...
do you think they'll actually ditch x11 by gnome 48?
I think it's possible, or at least deprecating it and dropping it from the default build
Wayland is ready for some people who don’t need certain features, but it is nowhere near to ready for a large project such as GNOME
I use Gnome with Wayland for about 1.5 year private and business incl. screen sharing as a web dev. No idea what your talking about
@@DominikZogg not everybody uses only a web browser
@@DominikZoggThat just means you dont need the currently missing wayland features. Gnome should absolutely consider those before removing x11 bc otherwise it could force a lot of companies and users to older versions or alternatives
@@DominikZoggthat's his argument
I beg to differ. It's perfectly ready for Gnome. It's no ready for most of the people using Gnome or a lot of linux native programs.
X12 r0.9😊
Serious question when, as we all know, dconf and GNOME apps are used in Cinnamon
Kind of funny to see gnome will probably break the user experience if they don't fix the issues they have been dragging their feet on. If they want to drop X they will lose gaming and image editing and that will probably not work for ubuntu. I will probably still use it but will switch when cosmic is out.
It''s a draft that signalizes and pushes to fix the problems with Wayland. While GNOME likes to break user experience for their ideals, I don't expect this to come through before Wayland is fixed on GNOME (or I should say before GNOME is fixed on Wayland to be accurate and fair).
I still don't understand why Ubuntu dropped Unity and went back to Gnome. I really liked it back then.
@@EyobFitwi I liked it too. One of the reasons for Unity was the plan of convergence devices with mobile and PC. But those changed and Unity was no longer needed. I guess.
Putting all eggs in one basket does not look like Unix philosophy. Wayland is a big mistake, imho.
I wonder if they pull the rug out too quickly this could be gnomes kde4 moment. Making distro maintainers and/or users experiences more difficult because the developers aren't ready to make a switch seems counterintuitive. You are going to try to force the Developers to fix things by making the users angry? Good luck.
Except KDE 4 didn't change the way the desktop worked. Yes, it wasn't ready for widespread production use, but I'm shocked many distros just went along with GNOME 3 despite the entire "UX design failure" according to Linus Torvalds, who switched to Xfce for two years following GNOME 3's release.
In fact, GNOME 3 was so bad, it led to FOUR major DEs being developed out of it:
- MATE (the continuation of GNOME 2 and its paradigm)
- Cinnamon (GNOME 3 but with a focus on "traditional" paradigms)
- LXQt (LXDE merged a Qt fork with Razor-Qt to form LXQt, the successor the LXDE, after the main developer spoke out against GTK 3 and later)
- Unity (moved from being another option for a Netbook Edition of Ubuntu to the main interface in 11.04 because even Canonical was disillusioned with the GNOME 3 team, so they went their own way with Unity, and to this day, GNOME has been modded on Ubuntu to somewhat resemble Unity)
I mean, KDE Plasma 5 really has become so mature and yet so customizable that I would not be able to go back to GNOME 3 or later without at least some tweaks and extensions. KDE Plasma 6 is going on my system as soon as Arch Linux supplies it.
forget the jq, we are talking about the wq.
Not that I use gnome much because their UI isn't my cup of tea. However gnome dropping xorg might help force nvidia stuff to be resolved sooner rather than later. :)
If it also makes people move away from gnome as the default desktop environment I wouldn't complain either.
listen, if we want Wayland to be the future, we kinda have to force people to adopt it. Way too many people have the "it works, let's not change it" mentality, so if we don't force them they won't switch till it breaks. It's like women who don't go to the mechanic to fix their car until it literally stops in the middle of the road.
True but also GNOME is just behind KDE on many things
But if the thing that you are trying to force people to adopt doesn't work for them, then what?
@@d-air1 Then you use something else
Jesus Christ I'm so glad I'm back on KDE and, by the looks of things, will stay there permanently
This one reason why I’m a Window Manager user. I’m less a victim of such decisions. I’m not against Wayland. I’m not ready to deal with Wayland yet. I also don’t think that Wayland is mature enough either. I think they are rushing adoption.
same, and i use wayland daily(KDE) gnome has a lot of lacking features and fixes that need to be fixed before that(things that even KDE has fixed, or is fixed on plasma 6)
Hi donald (if you ever read this because CZcams killed notifying). I have a few more reasons to use a windowmanager (dwm) but that indeed is a very nice perk. I sensed from those comments from this GNOME-developer that he can't wait to get rid of Xorg. That seems a bit extreme to me.
I would love to switch to Wayland, but for playing games there would be no positives and several negatives. Primarily that upstream mutter has no VRR support. Like come on what year is it here.
But on an amd card I can list off my hand 7 games that crash my whole session on wayland. So if a game needs x11 then gotta install kde too
I'm bouta blow
“Guh noaem”
Well I'm happy I jumped to Debian so _hopefully_ all the painful issues surrounding wayland are solved by the time I upgrade, in the next... 5 years maybe?
No I'm not using GNOME, can't you see why you can't trust them at all?
They're not willing to budge...that's interesting given they're discussing budgie...I'll see myself out
You know what? I moved my gaming PC to Gnome Wayland, and you know what happened? Now I can't set custom resolutions because only Weston implements that. Wayland being a halfassed barebones solution relying on the compositor for literally everything means users are pretty much screwed when the first corner case happens.
That's why it needs to be further developed? I don't see why you think that'll hold true forever
That’s just because gnome Wayland is overhyped and even worse then kde Wayland despite what people pretend
@@kreuner11 He did not say it will hold true forever, but the fact it holds true now is a reason to avoid forcing mass adoption for something that is not ready for it.
@@kreuner11I wonder how long it would become a false statement? Another 10 years?
@@kreuner11 wayland is 15 years old
What's the upside of removing it?
I see none, let it be until Wayland is ready.
Less maintenance burden to spend more time improving Wayland
@@BrodieRobertson interesting, thanks for the reply.