DCS: F/A-18C Hornet: ATFLIR or LITENING II Which one should you use?
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- čas přidán 8. 09. 2024
- Looking at the pro's and cons of using the ATFLIR vs the LITENING II and the operational reasons to use one over the other.
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Great video as always. Thank you Sir. Kind regards, Nick
Thank you kindly Nick! Appreciate all the hard work that's gone into this update.
@@RedKiteRender Many thanks again for all your passion and support. Kind regards, Nick
I use both
ATFLIR
Players: "A targeting pod is a targeting pod is a targeting pod?"
Redkite: "Well yes, but actually no..."
Yeah a TGP is a TGP on a fundamental level but there's a lot of differences and nuance that add up.
Worth noting that in the A2A role the ATFLIR doesn’t require to you constantly click an MFD button to space to your L&S, you can just box L&S slave and it’ll slave to whatever you have locked. It’s another one of those old Litening software limitations
Good tip!
@@RedKiteRender Well, the good tip would have been to use the Talios targeting pod from Thales. Best pod available right now.
Just the question I was asking myself last night. Cheers.
I like how you pointed out the reasons to use/not use the ATFLIR.
FYI the After Tail Filter Landing In Rain isn't a system I'dd ever use.
I personally much prefer the ATFLIR because a) I find the zoom levels more intuitive, and b) if you have a Mav page open with the Litening the FoV button is always assigned to that, rather than the TGP.
Mavs were used as “poor man’s pods” sometimes by pilots.
jesus.... im sorry. i have been watching your videos for a year or so, maybe longer i dont know (covid got my timeline obscured) and i was never subscribed. i fixed that brother. you're defiantly one of my favorite dcs knowledge centers if not my number one.
anyways, i really appreciate you putting the time into research and video making and whatever else goes into what you do here.
cheers brother
Ah man no worries! Thank you for your support and kind words!
Goddamn, I was sure I was subscribed too. Thank you. I love this channel so much!
definitely*
HI RedKite, thanks for the video man. The best guess I can make regarding the performance of the Litening vs the ATFLIR is that they have modeled the newest (2008) revision of the Litening pod out of convenience (more difficult to simulate a bad camera than a good one). The ATFLIR is not necessarily "better" than the newest litening, its just different. The ATFLIR wasnt brought in to replace the Litening, it was brought in to replace the "night hawk" targeting system, which was the previous Navy pod I think.. Pilots reported a significant jump in performance from the previous system but that system wasnt the Litening. I think the point of having both is that the Litening (2003-2008 version) is used on planes like the Mirage and export su30s while the ATFLIR is the Navy's primary pod currently. This will put 4 different targeting pods in the game (not counting integrated systems) that will eventually serve different factions during different time periods just like IRL..
This is one of those difficult to answer problems, We know that The A-10c (1) uses the LITENING II AT, and that the Harrier uses the more modern LITENING II G4 which has something like a 1000x1000 resolution vs the 500x500? resolution of the AT. Now in dcs, they all perform exactly the same. However I believe the current DCS pod outperforms even the G4 version, as the zoom doesn't degrade picture quality like it should, it magics extra pixels into existence by quirk of how ED did the zooming mechanic, rather than taking the Narrow fov and enlarging it which I believe would be more accurate.
@@RedKiteRender this is spot on. The upgrades in the Litening concerning resolution only applies to the FLIR sensor, not the CCD camera. Zoom on a FLIR system is much more advanced and difficult to design. Think about it this way, if you want to enlarge an image you are limited by the Megapixel count of the image for digital, and variable lenses for optical. With thermal, however, you cant actually enlarge the image all that much using a lens, you need a more powerful sensor to reach out further and get better resolution. With FLIR, the lenses need to be made out of germanium or zinc selenide to achieve something similar to optical zoom which makes them insanely expensive, and even then its a limited way of enlarging the image. The majority of magnification is done digitally with thermal, resulting in a lower resolution image in your display. I think this is what Wags is talking about when he references the "new thermal imaging" coming to DCS. That update would give people a reason to use the CCD more often, as a thermal camera can be compromised by background heat and all kinds of other variables IRL, while the CCD should have something like 50+ times optical zoom at full resolution (probably 24-48mp for CCD).
I am really hoping that with the A-6 we get some ISR functionality and gameplay added to the sim.. these pods are used for alot more than targeting in the real world
@@RedKiteRender yes thats true all pods appear to have the same resolution although the harriers G4 still ends up being the best pod becuase of the additional zoom levels. you go from from 9 to 16 levels of digital zoom, without any image degradation. It appears that the A10C /F16C/F/A18C all have the same model of Litening. the AT even if ED doesn't specifically use the "AT" designation outside of the A10C 1 and 2 module. Indeed hopefully can eventually model resolution degradation, and then perhaps the ATFLIR might maintain sharper image resolution , although lack of zoom that you get on the Litenings wont seem a like such a disadvantage of everything is a pixelated mess at level 9.
Thank you Red, your videos are outstanding!
Glad you like them!
Excellent video as always
The reason I choose ATFLIR over LITENING II is mostly because of the step zoom function. I don't need to hold the radar elevation button to change the zoom, instead just a few clicks are required.
Thank you, mr Kite! I mistakingly believed that the ATFLIR would have the superior zoom level, interesting that it's not the case.
Technically it does, the optical zoom is better, but the zoom levels on the LITENING tips it in it's favour, I think the LITENING needs a downgrade as it's extra zoom is too perfect.
Team ATFLIR. I just don't feel right loading a pod that's not certified for carriers, in order to get better zoom. Makes me feel icky.
Awesome vid as usual, RedKite. While learning to use the new pod, I found a few other things the ATFLIR can do that the the LITENING II cannot:
- long press SCS to enter AUTO track mode. I really like this and find it streamlines the target acquisition/designation workflow when compared to the LITENING pod
- AUTO track can lock on to both moving and well-defined stationary objects, unlike LITENING's PTRK mode
- ATFLIR displays designated waypoint, if applicable
I think these are accurate and apologies if these are incorrect or if they were already mentioned.
We need more cow in your future videos!
I would find it funny if the cows were put in so people could reenact Mover's call sign scenario.
Needs more cow bell.
@@orlock20 hahaha - had the same very first thought on my mind when I saw the cow .. time to get the thing MOVING !
does anyone know if the cows actually give a heat signature on IRNV ?
For the record: the only reason the litening can be mounted on the cheek station in DCS is so that it can be used as a stand-in for ATFLIR. In real life only the USMC uses the litening pod and ONLY on on the centerline station, and only when launching from land. Now that ATFLIR is released, the proper implementation would be to remove the ability to mount LITENING on the cheek station.
Other countries use littening from cheek station
@@hphp31416 Do you have a source for this? Not challenging, I'm genuinely curious. The only photos I can find of cheek station pods on foreign hornets are of the SNIPER pod on Canadian hornets. I can't find any LITENING pods on cheek stations.
US Marines use centreline, and I believe Spain use them on both locations:
plane-encyclopedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/spanish-hornet-at-a-nato-tiger-meet-exercise-flox.jpeg
www.flugzeuginfo.net/images/airshow/2009spottersdayjg71/ef18a_spanishaf_c15-61_12-19_spotterdayjg712009_01.jpg
@@RedKiteRender yessir thats a Spanish hornet with LITENING on the cheek station alright. Forget I said anything.
@@vonmoltke7799 No worries. Technically the Lot 20 we've got simulated never carried it on the cheek, but a concession was made since we're using Spanish avionics for it anyway. Allowing us to represent the Spanish hornets and fill the gap until ATFLIR was out :)
Personally I'd disagree with your assesment that the LITENING is better than the ATFLIR overall for a couple of reasons.
Firstly, the ATFLIR is waaaaaaay more slick to use air to air on account of not having to fuss with the zoom. It's very quick and easy to zoom out and get a better view of the target aircraft, especially with a radar slave only. Speaking of which, the ATFLIR also benefits from not having to press buttons to step your FLIR every time you switch targets thanks to L&S Slave being a "sticky" setting.
The loss of the visible laser is a bit of a bummer but not really a deal-breaker for me (I've only seen it _intentionally_ used once or twice, usually it's an accident), and the lesser maximum zoom of ATFLIR is offset by the much wider maximum field of view. And of course the ATFLIR's attitude representation is much easier to read quickly. I'd also say that the lack of offset/bullseye reference is less of an issue for target sharing; I usually use either the helmet or LST for these purposes.
Overall, I'd say it's a much more even contest then you present it as, with the LITENING being better for preplanned strikes, standoff weapons employment, and nighttime operations with other aircraft, while the ATFLIR has the edge for air to air, battlefield air interdiction, and close air support. As a general rule, personally I'm probably gonna take the ATFLIR more often
I think going forwards the ATFLIR will become better in general, perhaps I'm too used to the LITENING, but that zoom level is so powerful that I like it over the ATFLIR, That said I'll be using the ATFLIR from carriers all the time. After 10? years of using the LITENING I've grown accustomed to it's quirks, give it a month or two of using the ATFLIR and it might be harder to go back to!
That's a bummer that the NAVY never implemented the NAV FLIR. I was hoping to see that in DCS.
Yeah I kind of hope ED can be persuaded to model it anyway, would be a fun tool to have!
It's definitely an invaluable tool. I've been doing a lot of night missions in the Harrier and 99% of the time will be flying with NavFLIR on, helps a bunch when navigating through the twists and turns of the Caucasus mountains!
I was on the flight test team to install the ATFLIR onto the Marines VFMA 142 back around 2004 maybe 03, we got the A+ hornets ready for the desert, then we went to another marine squadron and another, they loved us..
I think we could be seeing the NavFLIR for the F18 as they have bothered to externally model it. Googling F18 atflir shows a number of navy birds with a smooth fairing on here, opposed to having the little mounting hole for it.
Matt Wagner said they wouldn't be implementing it, so I wouldn't expect it unless we're lucky and minds are changed.
Good stuff! I didn't even realize we had an option in selecting pods. Will probably stick w/ the lightening just because I'm so used to using it with the warthog...
The ATFLIR just came out a few days ago so we literally just got the option. They are very similar now but when the new CCD and IR imaging get added to the game we will probably see a bigger difference.
Although it's not necessarily realistic, i enjoy carrying the Lightning on the centerline to free up another store for AMRAAM. It also gives better visibility too, less masking happening when it's sitting on centerline compared to cheek station :)
Indeed, although I like to optimise the wing pylons with double ugly and a bunch of A-G weapons, it'll come down to mission requirements like fuel.
@@RedKiteRender ag weapons on hornet is pretty shit compared to the jas gripen.
@@erfguuipo8084 Okay? The Grippen is far more modern and not in DCS.
@@RedKiteRender it is as a mod but yeah what you said is true
I only fly the A-10C (II) but thouroughly enjoyed this comparison. Thank you.
I hope they never nerf the Lightning 2. I love the Pod and hated it when several multiplayer servers banned it.
haha that's how israeli technology be sometimes
Excellent video
I like arflir intuitiveness but litening is better for me. The targets stands out more for me the environment is daytime, Caucasus map. Especially targets that tend to blend with their background. Using TV mode.
Thanks for focusing on what matters, as always. Good topic and information.
So thorough as usual. Thank you Mr Kite.
At least for all the missions I create, I always knew I would use ATFLIR only for Navy and Litening for land based marines.
Neither one had access to those pods in 2005-2006.
Both using F/A-18C were using nitehawk pods at the time.
The marines F/A-18D had Litening but not available for C that used only nitehawk.
The navy C didn't have ATFLIR as only superhornets squadrons had access to it and so were forced to use nitehawk.
ED should implement nitehawk and remove the Litening and ATFLIR from hornet for USN/MC if they really want to model 2005 C hornet.
@@theserpentes The Charlie Hornets had the ability to use the ATFLIR, and a few did, same with the Litening.
There are some liberties taken with DCS. like the ability of the Vipers to hold 6 mavs.
Thanks for this compact compared knowledge conclusion. Great Value.
What a thorough video, well done and thanks!
Love your vids RK, first ones I look for after a new feature releases, keep them coming
Great content and info as always sir!!!!
Zoom difference is because the lost of quality in numircal zoom isnt simulated. That's why the litening in better in DCS than the ATFLIR.
Yeah that's my understanding too, which is why I showed the LANTIRN to demonstrate the effect.
Lol, the DoD asks itself the same question. Ended up funding upgrades to both with the same budget line-item ironically inside of the USAF's Sniper ATP-SE program to keep the primes happy. Such is the taxpayers dollar!
Top quality and info! Thanks
Perfect video, thanks!
Well being the 4 years I loaded and maintained the hornet we only used the at flir
Very helpful. Thanks.
Hopefully they come out with the sniper pod on the viper before they nerf the litening.
Fix*
like the Hornet's radar, they didn't nerf it for "blance", it was fixed.
@@mobius7089 Well that's just the way you see it, I see it as a reduction in the already limited capability of the viper currently. Don't get me wrong I'm all for realism and making sure everything portrays their real life counterparts the best we can but I just hope they give us something with more capability first before they do it.
@@jarhead1145 How about you just go play ace combat? It's bugged and should be fixed. What else needs to be hoped or discussed? Swallow your blue tears please.
@@kontoname What's your deal?
@@jarhead1145 Multiple people have tried to tell you about it, yet you don't understand. Maybe it's too complex to nicely tell someone he has a rotten character? Stating the sniper pod should be released before fixing the buggy current one is just... lame.
Not to mention those pods and weapons far outclass anything we have in the game already, literally making it boring as hell.
Try AC, you will love it with that mindset.
I wish if there is a way to Simulate *The 2004 USS Nimitz UFO Incident* using these Targeting pods in DCS
Answer is easy... if you are a USN Hornet.. ATFLIR if Marine or (other) LITENING. Navy Squadrons only got FLIR/ATFLIR Marines and other countries got the Litening.
Can i take both so i dont have to chose
Haha if only, sadly you're only allowed one.
Thanks for that!
Interesting thank you
The LITENING zoom factors are digital zooms with image integration and should therefore lose a lotof detail when at max zoom (around 99x99 pixels).
And actually the ATFLIR has worse optical zoom at 1.5x15deg FOV in narrow vs 1x1 for the LITENING AT.
Real life LITENING only has digital zoom, and after talking to actual Hornet drivers they said anything beyond zoom 4 or 5 is borderline useless. So I am looking forward to see the vastly overperforming LITENING brought to more realism, hopefully like the LANTIRN that you already showed.
Yeah but the Lantirn is complete garbage except you let Jester use it. Then it's overpowered. 😂
ATFLIR auto actually tracks intuitively, LITENING PTRK won't track at all, so if your target is moving you'll need ATFLIR
Noo, litening ptrk actually can track moving targets
@@lucasreis6251 I had it on 12:00 hrs, -2C, cloud preset 1, FLIR white hot within 4nm and could not track either of 2 BTR80s.
Same scenario ATFLIR AUTO succesfully tracked all placed objects, moving and stationary within 10nm.
The latest OB did mention changing these values.
@@joejkd82 Oh, I haven't tested it after the new update. My bad
ATFLIR has 3 optical zooms and 2 digital zooms.
Litening AT has 2 optical zooms and 9 digital zooms.
Documentation says that las any means usable digital zoom is 5x in Litening to recognize buildings or bridges. But you can't use further digital zooms to see anything as you are looking a blurry 40*40 pixel video that is processed to be sharper on a low resolution display.
This should change when new FLIR appears as you look more as 256/512 resolution FLIR.
The best targeting pod there is now in Harrier. Litening G4 that is superior to ATFLIR and LITENING AT as the G4 is from 2009 that is about decade newer than AT and ATFLIR was already old in 2007 when it got in service in C hornets (not used in 2005).
Real world loadouts for hornets would be without either targeting pods and only use nitehawk that has 240px FLIR and is awful why it was not allowed to be used for self-designation because pilot can not make out what the target is or where really looking at. Too many blue on blue incident happened with that pod.
Can someone explain to me why the Litening 2 on the A10C struggles to ground stabilise on the simplest of manoeuvres and loses gimbal lock but fixed on the hornet it has no trouble staying stabilised going Mach 1.5?
Gimbal roll limits and unrolling are simulated differently between the two modules.
Hornet is my choice for sure 🦅🇺🇸🦅🏍👍
Litening, hands down.
Crushing it with these videos Redkite!
Great question I’ve asked myself
Nooice
How to you slave the TGP to where you are looking with the JHMCS in the hornet?
press up on the soi
I guess I missed something , you can use the JHMCS to mark ground targets?
AFAIK yes
Don't worry, you're still 8 months ahead of me. I heard that today for the first time.
we need a sniper pod
What is the source that usn did not use the navflir module to project the image on the hud?
Matt Wagner
Such a waste though...
Haven't flown the Hornet for a while, how long has the HMD designate been a thing?
About 4 months?
Really easy decision for me: Boat? ATFLIR. No boat? LITENING.
Hello RedKite, i notice your graphics are so sharp and looks way better than in DCS world original, how do you do it? do you have a mod?
No mods involved. Probably worth noting this video was recorded pre- FLIR update and that the FLIR on all ed first party modules are broken at the moment apart from the Apache.
@@RedKiteRender thx for your answer, after my message i noticed that the grafics are that good....sorry
Is this recommendation still accurate given the updates the last couple years?
We're talking 2023 and I'm watching this wondering whether or not the LITENING II still takes the win with the current DCS patch?
I believe it does, the picture image makes a huge difference
What about trimming the aircraft while it's mounted on the cheek?
Never really been an issue to me, but then i fly double ugly (asymmetrical one tank right one tank centre) just about every time i fly the hornet.
I prefer the LII hehe, btw anyone experiencing this bug:
When on AA mode if you get hard lock by another plane your radar says Jammmed and everything becomes frozen untill you are unlocked
And for no reasons at all the antena goes to -99-99 elevation every time you move the throttle lol
Not a bug - you have your jammer turned to XMIT. If you’re jamming, you can’t use your radar. I’m not sure how the ASPJ works, but if it uses the plane’s radar, you can’t do two things at once. If it’s a separate onboard jammer, it might be because of power limitations.
Sounds like you have a axis mapping issue with your throttle/radar elevation, check your bindings.
Which one can let me see through thick clouds?
I will vote for it.
The radar I guess? No light based targeting pod can see through clouds very well, IR will get through limited amounts of smoke, but less so clouds. You can bet in the future we'll see aircraft that use imaging radars instead of a targeting pod, if they're not already!
Saw the thumbnail, expected cake..
Answer at 4:46
Atflir it’s what we used in the navy
Litening looks cooler
Unless you're in for the uber realism, the Litening wins by a country mile (in my opinion ;-) )
** Bigger zoom (until a tweak that's coming out in 2 weeks I hear {joke})
** LESS masking. That hasn't been mentioned much, but being on the cheek not only increases masking by turning, but by wepaons too!!!
** Talking about weapons - You'll be losing one of them AMRAAMS off the cheek and having to adjust for trim with the asymmetric loudout.
yeah - I was really looking forward to better optics with the ATFLIR - but won't be taking it along for my journeys downtown.
In the forums it has been pointed out with evidence that our hornet shouldn't have neither, Litening or ATFLIR as in 2005-2006 period USMC/USN used the AN/AAS-38 that is low resolution pod.
Hornet is a frankenstein with unrealistic pods for it's timeline.
The AGM-65E2/L is as well in use in hornet that is only laser maverick capable for self-designated targets and it is available only from 2011 forward.
And USN/USMC didn't use AGM-65F mavericks at all in 2005, so again unrealistic weapon for hornet.
The AGM-62 WALLEYE was withdrawn from the service in 1994 so it is unrealistic weapon for hornet.
They could still include all this stuff just because it's technically possible, though. Not every mission in DCS has to be an exact duplicate of something that happened before in real life--plenty of room for "what if" as well as purely fictional missions, as long as the hardware itself actually existed in real life.
So, there's room for these pods and/or weapons in the module--but, you won't see AIM-54 Phoenix missiles on the Hornet.
If they take them out cause some Poindexter opened his big mouth, iam going postal
@@charlesbukowski9836 No shit, if the weapon/pod/device was ever available for the aircraft (even if it was never used) then there's no reason to remove it from the sim. You can create fictional missions with them that represent a time when the device/weapon *was* available--even if they never used it in real life for any mission, it was still available.
Need auto subtitles
Give it some time, they're enabled but youtube sometimes takes ages to process them :(
Lightning 4 is even better
Use none. Just go point blank, you will eventually hit something
Litening has better zoom so….
If atflir was modelled correctly and it wasnt wip Atflir by a MILE
Well, we gotta work with what we've got at the moment, I'm sure changes will come.
Lightening
LITENING is correct:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litening
@@RedKiteRender the beauty of spellchecker
Nope, LITENING. Sorry kids, but it's all capitals too :)
Dude compared optical zoom to digital zoom 🤣
Yes, because digital zoom functions like optical zoom in aircraft developed by Eagle dynamics, which, is of course incorrect. Giving the LITENING functionally more optical zoom than it should have as mentioned in the video.
Compare that to say, the F-14, which correctly represents digital zoom, it's a very stark difference.
neither, theyre both shit.
fly something else.
litening zoom was good about 2 years ago pre nerf
It was, and still is unrealistic, over performing by a fair margin, it should be using digital zoom which results in pixelation rather than dcs's hack of zooming the actual image without resolution loss.
Most realistic TGP in dcs is the LANTIRN. If you want truly awful look up the nitehawk pod which sadly we're not getting for the hornet, it wasn't cleared for engagements without external sources to identify friend or foe first, after it had a few friendly fire incidents.
@@RedKiteRender that is proper useless haha.
I've heard the Damocles pod is pretty awful IRL also.
Speak up