Beautiful shot on the ox head double bit demonstration vs short handle. Love the angle and the slight cant of the camera. It doesn’t hurt that the spot is gorgeous either.
Great video Ben. I find that very little is made of cost accounting, but it is really all important. I think we talked before about handle length and that there is a cost involved and it's =not just a free lunch. Using the rule of extremes and imagining a 10 foot handle, it becomes clear that it's not a simple as if this pivot point moves this much, and the handle is longer, it will travel faster. There is a cost accounting to it and very hard to figure out with a machine as complex as a human as the driver. I personally find handling and manueverability really important. For generalized woods work and diverse tasks, long handles seem to be more often a hinderance than a help. I just rarely have any use for them oustide of splitting. They have their place, but few actually need them. There is the safety issue though.
Thanks! I own 3 axes with 36" handles and they rarely get used unless i'm bucking or felling something outrageously large. I think 99% of people will be happier with a shorter axe. Dont know if you saw but Council tool finally released a jersey 3.5lb axe with a 32" handle. Should be a great option for those who want something heavier than the boys axe
What you are saying at the end about the proportion of work is very important. A lot of us take decisions about the pictures we have from the past. It's not always a good way to judge what is a good axe to make firewood with. In the majority of cases I think, we have pictures of professional lumberjacks with long (90cm) and thin handles. But at this moment 80% of their job is about felling and eventually hewing, which is better done with a long handle when we cut the trees the european way (=short above the ground). Thanks again Ben!
I commented in another video about the woodcutting tradition of the Chilotes, here it was usual to work with heavy axes (always 4 pounds and more) long handle, the southern forests had a lot of hard wood. The technique used with those axes was much more similar to the one used with sledgehamers, it is a circular movement where the hands do not move much along the handle. That compensates for the enormous weight, and allows you to accelerate a little more, without ending up exhausted. (it is the body that acts as a counterweight, the arms only steering the stroke) And since it was the only ax they used, a straight handle allowed them to use it with 2 hands much closer to the head, but also allowed them to use the full extension of the handle and gain leverage. They were guys who lived in the forest, days, weeks felling trees, chopping, carving beams, etc. Here is a video with some passages where you can see the different techniques they used with that huge axe, with a long mast and wedge head (as you suppose, it is not so common anymore, there are only some old videos where you can see this type of work, and in particular the use of those axes) czcams.com/video/ZL_qIXCv1wA/video.html . here's another clip, as the cut is made quite high, the axe falls when it is removed, and the guy takes advantage of that to turn it and hit again, he doesn't use much force, just redirects the initial movement (it was unusual to cut the tree near to ground, with that type of ax and that length would be incredibly exhausting) czcams.com/users/clipUgkxswYBvxNzdeAWdOdh4VJeRSDhWhfwPcv1
Your opinion reflects my experience as well. But perhaps it’s just a matter of what you’re used to. I grew up swinging 34-36” handles, and when I discovered Skillcults Channel 3+ years ago I bought a boys axe, which at first felt awkward and a little dangerous. Now it’s my preference and long handles feel awkward and dangerous.
I just recently found the bushcraft sisyphus channel, sadly realized his last upload was 2 years ago. Hopefully he comes back soon, his passion is undeniable & fun to watch.
Ben, long story short I found it very difficult to follow you as that stream behind you kept making me sleepy! Hahaha but then I woke as that axe struck the log! Thump thump thump hahaha. Good topic and explanation.
You're right in saying that the weight at the end of a longer handle feels heavier than a heavier weight at the end of a shorter handle. It all has to do with the physics of levers. At equal weights at the end of different length handles, the longer handle will always feel heavier.The longer the lever, lhe lesser the weight required to achieve equilibrium or balance of the entire apparatus, ie; weight and handle on a balance point. To lift a heavy stone, a longer log will do the job far easier than a shorter log. Length is crucial in understanding the physics at play in wielding an axe. For example the difference between a 28 inch handle and a 36 inch handle is 8 inches, which makes the longer handle 29% longer than the 28 inch handle or if it is the other way around, the 28 inch handle is 22% shorter than the 36 inch handle. These percentages don't necessarily always apply directly to the energy generated simply because one axe can be more comfortable to use than another and could be swung faster. The 24% difference you mention is within that spread. Interesting topic. Great video !
For me, the 1 kilo boys axe on a 28" handle is perfect. It is the most versatile axe I own. Any axe with a 36" handle just feels less controllable no matter the weight. Skillcult was a big influence that way for me. Especially after seeing what he could accomplish with such an axe.
Yeah I'm pretty much on that 2 1/4- 2.5lb with a 26-28 is what I'd use for at least 90% of the axe stuff I'd do in a wood. Though that said I do like the Rinaldi boys axe for bushcraft.
interesting information regarding the length of the stem (arm length to armpit) a very logical consideration which I have only heard from you so far. I also believe that there is a comfortable length of the ax handle. Unfortunately I did not have a clear length specification before your statement. could make a vid only on this subject "ax handle length in relation to arm length or body size and proportions."
Mors Kochanski is where i first heard the arm length handle, its a well known guide to choosing the right sized axe. You should check out his book and also the ax book by Dudley Cook, the 2 best sources on axe use
I definitely know what you mean, I used 3.5lb axes with 32in handles, then I got a 3.5lb axe with a 30in handle, first couple swings, i could tell it was totally different, it felt like a boys axe!
I don't swing axes for a living, but I do swing hammers. Lots of them. I can tell you the first thing I do with a 6 or 8 lb sledge is cut that 36" handle down to around 28 or 30 inches. You won't see a 36" handled sledge on a construction site. Unless it's for busting up concrete. As far as framing hammers. I carry a light titanium head with a 17" handle. I can drive a nail much faster with a 14 Oz hammer than those heavy 24-28 Oz. Estwings etc. Physics is physics. We can't change it.
I couldnt agree more, 36" has its specific place but generally 32" or shorter is far more handy and has better biomechanics. A lot of guys spout physics theory and say longer handle=more power. If that were the case why do we not see 60" handles lol. Meanwhile people who use the tools gravitate towards 32" or shorter
Hello. What is your preferred axe handle length. I’m 5’9 (1.75) height. What handle would you recommend. Btw you got one of the best channels and videos on axes. Thank you.
May I ask you a question? Would you choose the Ochsenkopf Iltis Europa/Canada, refurbish a Swedish Military Axe or go all out and buy a Basque for chopping down 3-4 pines? Greetings from Germany!
because splitting mauls are not used in the same way as a chopping axe. Its like formula 1 compared with drag racing, both fast cars but very different because of the context
Where I live, 3.5lb heads are most common. Also, the hardware stores here only carry 36" handles. So obviously, I've assembled a few full-size axes. I think your analysis is correct, but I actually really enjoy using the full-size axes. I think its because I'm well over 6' tall, and the shorter axes are the ones that feel awkward to me. Even with a long handle, I still feel like I use the full-body technique that you demonstrate with the shorter handle. Swinging a 3.5 lb axe on a 36" handle is very tiring though.
I'm over 6'5" and have always preferred 36" but I'm rethinking it lately. I'm starting to believe that 32" might be optimum for 3# or heavier heads for an all purpose axe. Felling, I really like the 36".
Mechanically speaking, this still doesn’t make sense to me. From reading the comments, everyone agrees, but I’m having a hard time understanding why. Are you saying because a handle is shorter, you naturally use your body with the swing(not just your arms)? And that’s why it has more power? Sorry to ask for more details man, just trying to learn more is all👍🏻
with a long handle when bucking smaller logs, if you try to use your shoulders and legs to pull the axe in with more power, you will hit well below the target. You have no option but to stand straight and only use your arms. In theory a longer axe can have more power, but you have to remember that works both ways, a longer axe also takes more energy and can be more awkward to swing
@@benscottwoodchopper ok, yes I agree!!! Standing at 6’4” and having really long arms, I HAVE to use a shorter handle or I’d never hit the mark with any type of accuracy😂 I’ve tried, it’s ugly.
Maybe a tall person can take advantage of the longer handle, or if you’re above your work on a hillside shorter people like you and me have the room to get it moving
Actually what I was trying to explain was when people cut normal notches but fail to keep the notches level, I put a picture up that shows it better i.redd.it/48p7r66tt5u31.jpg
I think of a handle as the gear ratio you're selecting for the axe head. It's no use having a heavy load to accelerate then sticking it in a high gear. I put my 3.5lb heads on 31.5" handles and they feel more friendly to heft and swing.
@@benscottwoodchopperI can only imagine how much arm strength it would take to use all day. My 2.25kg Curved Basque axe on its short handle is already pretty hefty.
I think you are just too short to need a 36in it really helps when you have a bad back and need to stand up straight and your 6'6 feet tall just my opinion
If you’re referring to the falling tree conforming to the laws of physics by producing vibrations which propagate into acoustic waves through transmission mediums, then yes. If you’re referring to the fact that nobody was there to be the receiver of this consequential transmission, then your question is more of a philosophical one. Can trees hear?
Working much harder with the shorter handle tool. Obviously making his views pan out. Approaching the question with an open mind would get a much different result.
Beautiful shot on the ox head double bit demonstration vs short handle. Love the angle and the slight cant of the camera. It doesn’t hurt that the spot is gorgeous either.
I LOVE THIS CONVERSATION!!!
Just watched this in the car post gym and had my aux plugged in. The bucking was louuuuuddd! Hahaha
I am with you on this. There is a reason why racing axes all have about the same length handles.
Great video Ben. I find that very little is made of cost accounting, but it is really all important. I think we talked before about handle length and that there is a cost involved and it's =not just a free lunch. Using the rule of extremes and imagining a 10 foot handle, it becomes clear that it's not a simple as if this pivot point moves this much, and the handle is longer, it will travel faster. There is a cost accounting to it and very hard to figure out with a machine as complex as a human as the driver. I personally find handling and manueverability really important. For generalized woods work and diverse tasks, long handles seem to be more often a hinderance than a help. I just rarely have any use for them oustide of splitting. They have their place, but few actually need them. There is the safety issue though.
Thanks! I own 3 axes with 36" handles and they rarely get used unless i'm bucking or felling something outrageously large. I think 99% of people will be happier with a shorter axe. Dont know if you saw but Council tool finally released a jersey 3.5lb axe with a 32" handle. Should be a great option for those who want something heavier than the boys axe
What you are saying at the end about the proportion of work is very important. A lot of us take decisions about the pictures we have from the past. It's not always a good way to judge what is a good axe to make firewood with. In the majority of cases I think, we have pictures of professional lumberjacks with long (90cm) and thin handles. But at this moment 80% of their job is about felling and eventually hewing, which is better done with a long handle when we cut the trees the european way (=short above the ground).
Thanks again Ben!
I commented in another video about the woodcutting tradition of the Chilotes, here it was usual to work with heavy axes (always 4 pounds and more) long handle, the southern forests had a lot of hard wood. The technique used with those axes was much more similar to the one used with sledgehamers, it is a circular movement where the hands do not move much along the handle. That compensates for the enormous weight, and allows you to accelerate a little more, without ending up exhausted. (it is the body that acts as a counterweight, the arms only steering the stroke) And since it was the only ax they used, a straight handle allowed them to use it with 2 hands much closer to the head, but also allowed them to use the full extension of the handle and gain leverage. They were guys who lived in the forest, days, weeks felling trees, chopping, carving beams, etc.
Here is a video with some passages where you can see the different techniques they used with that huge axe, with a long mast and wedge head (as you suppose, it is not so common anymore, there are only some old videos where you can see this type of work, and in particular the use of those axes)
czcams.com/video/ZL_qIXCv1wA/video.html
.
here's another clip, as the cut is made quite high, the axe falls when it is removed, and the guy takes advantage of that to turn it and hit again, he doesn't use much force, just redirects the initial movement (it was unusual to cut the tree near to ground, with that type of ax and that length would be incredibly exhausting)
czcams.com/users/clipUgkxswYBvxNzdeAWdOdh4VJeRSDhWhfwPcv1
thanks, those are some great links. always interested to see other axe users from other parts of the world
Great video. Thanks for sharing. I always appreciate the explanations you provide. 👍🏻
Putting your hip into the work is the key to physical intensive labor
Your opinion reflects my experience as well. But perhaps it’s just a matter of what you’re used to. I grew up swinging 34-36” handles, and when I discovered Skillcults Channel 3+ years ago I bought a boys axe, which at first felt awkward and a little dangerous. Now it’s my preference and long handles feel awkward and dangerous.
I like this comment ;)
I just recently found the bushcraft sisyphus channel, sadly realized his last upload was 2 years ago. Hopefully he comes back soon, his passion is undeniable & fun to watch.
I think he is too busy with lamaca axes these days
Ben, long story short I found it very difficult to follow you as that stream behind you kept making me sleepy! Hahaha but then I woke as that axe struck the log! Thump thump thump hahaha. Good topic and explanation.
You're right in saying that the weight at the end of a longer handle feels heavier than a heavier weight at the end of a shorter handle. It all has to do with the physics of levers. At equal weights at the end of different length handles, the longer handle will always feel heavier.The longer the lever, lhe lesser the weight required to achieve equilibrium or balance of the entire apparatus, ie; weight and handle on a balance point. To lift a heavy stone, a longer log will do the job far easier than a shorter log. Length is crucial in understanding the physics at play in wielding an axe. For example the difference between a 28 inch handle and a 36 inch handle is 8 inches, which makes the longer handle 29% longer than the 28 inch handle or if it is the other way around, the 28 inch handle is 22% shorter than the 36 inch handle. These percentages don't necessarily always apply directly to the energy generated simply because one axe can be more comfortable to use than another and could be swung faster. The 24% difference you mention is within that spread. Interesting topic. Great video !
For me, the 1 kilo boys axe on a 28" handle is perfect. It is the most versatile axe I own. Any axe with a 36" handle just feels less controllable no matter the weight. Skillcult was a big influence that way for me. Especially after seeing what he could accomplish with such an axe.
Yeah I'm pretty much on that 2 1/4- 2.5lb with a 26-28 is what I'd use for at least 90% of the axe stuff I'd do in a wood. Though that said I do like the Rinaldi boys axe for bushcraft.
Haha, at 3:56 into the video I reflexed to dodge the wood chip flying at the camera. Good points though brother as always
Hear the ring on that itlis!
interesting information regarding the length of the stem (arm length to armpit) a very logical consideration which I have only heard from you so far. I also believe that there is a comfortable length of the ax handle. Unfortunately I did not have a clear length specification before your statement. could make a vid only on this subject "ax handle length in relation to arm length or body size and proportions."
Mors Kochanski is where i first heard the arm length handle, its a well known guide to choosing the right sized axe. You should check out his book and also the ax book by Dudley Cook, the 2 best sources on axe use
@@benscottwoodchopper Thank you for the information
I definitely know what you mean, I used 3.5lb axes with 32in handles, then I got a 3.5lb axe with a 30in handle, first couple swings, i could tell it was totally different, it felt like a boys axe!
I like old technology,, it worked for our ancestors ,so that’s good enough for me 👍
I unsubscribed early this morning, but like a prodigal son I'm back as the 800th sub...
I don't swing axes for a living, but I do swing hammers. Lots of them. I can tell you the first thing I do with a 6 or 8 lb sledge is cut that 36" handle down to around 28 or 30 inches. You won't see a 36" handled sledge on a construction site. Unless it's for busting up concrete. As far as framing hammers. I carry a light titanium head with a 17" handle. I can drive a nail much faster with a 14 Oz hammer than those heavy 24-28 Oz. Estwings etc. Physics is physics. We can't change it.
I couldnt agree more, 36" has its specific place but generally 32" or shorter is far more handy and has better biomechanics. A lot of guys spout physics theory and say longer handle=more power. If that were the case why do we not see 60" handles lol. Meanwhile people who use the tools gravitate towards 32" or shorter
Hello. What is your preferred axe handle length. I’m 5’9 (1.75) height. What handle would you recommend.
Btw you got one of the best channels and videos on axes.
Thank you.
Id try a 65- 70cm
May I ask you a question? Would you choose the Ochsenkopf Iltis Europa/Canada, refurbish a Swedish Military Axe or go all out and buy a Basque for chopping down 3-4 pines? Greetings from Germany!
I would go for the iltis for pine wood and grind it like I show in the latest video. Also thin the handle
@@benscottwoodchopper Thanks for your reply, really nice of you! Do you mean the Europa or Canada Version of the Iltis?
@@ossilong I would probably go with the canada 1000.
So why are splitting mauls big, heavy heads on long handles?
because splitting mauls are not used in the same way as a chopping axe. Its like formula 1 compared with drag racing, both fast cars but very different because of the context
Where I live, 3.5lb heads are most common. Also, the hardware stores here only carry 36" handles. So obviously, I've assembled a few full-size axes. I think your analysis is correct, but I actually really enjoy using the full-size axes. I think its because I'm well over 6' tall, and the shorter axes are the ones that feel awkward to me. Even with a long handle, I still feel like I use the full-body technique that you demonstrate with the shorter handle. Swinging a 3.5 lb axe on a 36" handle is very tiring though.
Im actaully 6 foot 4, when i first started short felt a little awkward but now long handles feel the worst for me
@@benscottwoodchopper Interesting! Maybe I'll give it more thought knowing you're tall as well. Now the trick is finding shorter handles.
I'm over 6'5" and have always preferred 36" but I'm rethinking it lately. I'm starting to believe that 32" might be optimum for 3# or heavier heads for an all purpose axe. Felling, I really like the 36".
Hello Ben, what would it be like to use an axe of your preferred length with a 4 pound head?
I use 4 and 5lb Axes on 30-32" handles, feels great to swing, very powerful and accurate
@@benscottwoodchopper What problems are there with a 4 pound head on a handle of say, 27 inches?
ask the Basques
Death By Astonishment your shins might get in the way
@@deathbyastonishment7930 4lb on a 27 would work fine
Mechanically speaking, this still doesn’t make sense to me. From reading the comments, everyone agrees, but I’m having a hard time understanding why.
Are you saying because a handle is shorter, you naturally use your body with the swing(not just your arms)? And that’s why it has more power?
Sorry to ask for more details man, just trying to learn more is all👍🏻
with a long handle when bucking smaller logs, if you try to use your shoulders and legs to pull the axe in with more power, you will hit well below the target. You have no option but to stand straight and only use your arms. In theory a longer axe can have more power, but you have to remember that works both ways, a longer axe also takes more energy and can be more awkward to swing
@@benscottwoodchopper ok, yes I agree!!! Standing at 6’4” and having really long arms, I HAVE to use a shorter handle or I’d never hit the mark with any type of accuracy😂 I’ve tried, it’s ugly.
Long story short 😂
Maybe a tall person can take advantage of the longer handle, or if you’re above your work on a hillside shorter people like you and me have the room to get it moving
That's the thing... I am 6'4''
Are you saying the beaver chewing felling method isn't a good idea?? Whatever will young Scott come up with next?
Actually what I was trying to explain was when people cut normal notches but fail to keep the notches level, I put a picture up that shows it better i.redd.it/48p7r66tt5u31.jpg
@@benscottwoodchopper I know Ben, but the same thing should happen beaver chewing I reckon. Good video
@@vinniesdayoff3968 beaver chewing is the Russian roulette of felling techniques!
the beaver is much smaller and can get out of the way much more easily than a human.
@@abot19 True, but its not rare to see a squashed beaver
I think of a handle as the gear ratio you're selecting for the axe head. It's no use having a heavy load to accelerate then sticking it in a high gear. I put my 3.5lb heads on 31.5" handles and they feel more friendly to heft and swing.
Thats a good way of explaining it. 6lb on a 36" feels like going uphill in 5th!
@@benscottwoodchopperI can only imagine how much arm strength it would take to use all day. My 2.25kg Curved Basque axe on its short handle is already pretty hefty.
I think you are just too short to need a 36in it really helps when you have a bad back and need to stand up straight and your 6'6 feet tall just my opinion
Im 6 4". If you have a bad back probably should avoid using an axe
Y'all are using axes?
Why not? Its fun
@@benscottwoodchopper I get that part. I just personally enjoy chopping down trees with a sharpened shovel. It's suprisingly effective.
@@erebys21 i tried the shovel thing, didnt like it nor see the advantage tbh. An axe is handier imho
@@benscottwoodchopper true, but I like the challenge.
広めてください」、
hey i have a question for you. If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?
If you’re referring to the falling tree conforming to the laws of physics by producing vibrations which propagate into acoustic waves through transmission mediums, then yes.
If you’re referring to the fact that nobody was there to be the receiver of this consequential transmission, then your question is more of a philosophical one.
Can trees hear?
Working much harder with the shorter handle tool. Obviously making his views pan out. Approaching the question with an open mind would get a much different result.
Then you missed the point. Try a 28 over a 36 and you will agree
Next time use the same technique on the long handles and I'm sure you'll cut better.
if you use the same technique the axe ends up in the ground lol.