Thomas Jefferson and the Burden of Slavery with Annette Gordon-Reed - Conversations with History
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- čas přidán 24. 10. 2016
- Conversations host Harry Kreisler welcomes Harvard Professor Annette Gordon-Reed for a discussion of her work as a lawyer/historian focusing on the contradictions in the life of Thomas Jefferson. Topics covered in the conversation include how her training as a lawyer empowered her to overturn the conventional historical view of the relationship between Jefferson and Sally Hemings. Professor Gordon-Reed highlights the racism embedded in Jeffersonian historiography; ignoring, for example, factual evidence, which confirmed that Jefferson was the father of Sally Heming’s children. In examining the evolution of Jefferson’s ideas on slavery, Professor Gordon-Reed emphasizes how Jefferson’s theory of slavery evolved as he adapted to the reality of American social and political life. She concludes with an the implications of her work for understanding the present turmoil over black/ white relations in the U.S. today. Recorded on 9/29/2016. [11/2016] [Show ID: 31519]
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Thank you both.
A great discussion, very objective and should be leveraged as a healing process for the racial issue
People are shaped by history. I'm alive because of history.
Fabulous!!! I am going to buy MS Gordon-Reed's books on Jefferson..
Amazing. Thankful to find this content.
Absolutely great conversation.
Good interview, enlightening!
I wonder if prof Reed's books are also edited in italian.
The acknowledgments section of Christopher Hitchens’s biography on Thomas Jefferson brought me here.
I remember that series of books. I read them too.
An inspiring lady - great post
Sometimes firgiveness is not met as part of equasion no matter how well meaning the oppressor meant.
Amazing!!!!!!!
Totally educated. Love history. That's make who people today.
A digression here but remember, when you take a boat ride to France from America in those days, that is a VERY long time on a boat. Look it up those who don't know. CRAZY.
That is our responsibility: to bring reasonable inferences ,,, and we have this capability because we were there!
Arna Smith ye6gghhhmm
She wrote more than one - about Sally hemmings?
Annette is a lawyer but her work on Sally Hemmings has been so essential
It's good to see that Professor Gordon-Reed is instinctively falling back on her Italian-American roots.
?
@@kalebnbrown
Prof Reed is 25% Italian.
All i can say, is amazing
American history is, somewhat complicated and story is told with many individual perspectives, so getting the truth 360 full circle is difficult. Perhaps all bring some truth along with the lies.😮
A lot people don't understand that guys like Jefferson, Madison and Washington didn't come up with the phrase "ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL". That was derived from the Native Americans especially the Iroquois who influenced the drafting of the constitution. The "founding fathers" didn't mean that blacks and Native Americans were equal, but rather themselves. History books don't emphasize this enough.
That phrase came hundreds of years before Europeans ever landed in the Americas.
Annette is a wonderful person with ABSOLUTELY AMAZING parents.
Give this woman credit for being the only black person in a white school!
I agree with her assessment of Jefferson. He was an individual of his time and did much. It was not up to him to solve the question of slavery. The future history showed that it would take a civil war.
Hypocrisy in any era is no a redeeming personal characteristic. One cannot stand up and proclaim "All men are created equal" but on the other hand engage in the enslavement of other human beings. Jefferson was not compelled to own people in bondage, it was clearly his choice. There were many Southerner who did not own slaves. Enslavement was just as wrong at that time, just as it is now. All that being said he is an historical figure and a very flawed one and should be seen only as such. His actions as conduct should not be excused.
He was a racist cunt
The Civil War began in Jefferson's mind, the fight to uphold slavery and to destroy it.
16 minutes in and the topic hasn’t been discussed yet lol
I feel like TJ was very in love with his wife. Left a distraught widower who had put on the yoke of his former father-in-law's chattel property/family. Finds himself courting difficult European women when he finds his ex-wife's near clone accompanying his daughter in France. Truly forbidden fruit ripening and easy pickings.
Why did he not free her when he died? He freed her/his children.
Great conversation and refreshing to hear it from a different perspective. I was bothered somewhat by Mr. Kreisler using the word slaves and not enslaved or enslaved people. Everybody is born a free man, so there can never be the concept of slaves. One who's freedom has been taken away for whatever reason is enslaved. Anyway, the answer to the real reason as to why Jefferson could not solve the slavery problem came around the 48th minute, where Prof Gordon-Reed said that having slaves was in a way comfortable for Jefferson. And that's the right answer for the businessman Jefferson living and leading a capitalist society. We must not forget that slavery is, in essence, an economic phenomenon with social and political consequences. In economic theories prevalent at the time (physiocrats, classical and neo-classical theories), private profitmaking depends on access and employment of cheap labor, and slavery provides the cheapest, albeit immoral. This still is true for capitalism today. So, if Jefferson really wanted to solve the problem of slavery, he had to present an alternative for cheap labor such as to keep profitmaking (and lifestyles) at least on the same level, and to that, he did not have an answer. There still is not one today, since uncontrolled private profitmaking is somewhat of an aberration in a democracy (irrespective how strange it may sound).
The issue is more than slavery. It’s the “us vs them” phenomenon. Perhaps he underestimated the potential for human beings to evolve to the level of enlightened. Jefferson was way, way ahead of his time. We have come some distance, but are still not there.
Jefferson was an avid reader and corresponded with many knowledgeable folks at a time when it was known that fossils of marine animals were found in higher elevations along coasts . His interest in natural history appears to have played a large part in his thinking . He's questioning human nature much of his life . He could be 250 yrs. ahead of his time ? Historians don't have an equivalent scientific background to understand him fully ? Was he on to the evolutionary process ?
We've been there for decades.
this guy doesn’t want to talk about the book.
I wanted to hear more about her book as well.
Better to hear their knowledge of history than just reading a book. Go buy the book. You can learn more listening to her here.
In a letter to Annette Gordon-Reed, dated August 5, 2001 John Works of the Thomas Jefferson Heritage Society attempted to address a major "typographical error" in her book, wherein Ms. Reed completely changed the meaning of an entire sentence. She would later say it was a honest mistake, and I quote "The issue for us is what are the odds that a scholar of your experience and reputation would "mistakenly" transform the phrase, "No female domestic ever entered his chambers except at hours when he was known not to be there and none could have entered without being exposed to the public gaze," into "no female domestic ever entered his chambers except at hours when he was known not to be in the public gaze." So much for Harvard level scholarship...
I know Sally was a slave, but TJ must have had feelings for her.
She wasn't a slave, she was a courtesan. She could have stayed in France, and been free, but instead, she negotiated a deal with Jefferson. She would return, remain a slave, but would not have to do physical labor but instead would be his companion in the house. Under Virginia law at the time, if she returned she would necessarily remain a slave. And all her children would be freed when they came of age. The idea that she was some sort of victim is complete nonsense.
Thomas Jefferson's relationship to slavery is more complicated than simply to call him a racist and a horrible person. Yes, he owned slaves, BUT fought to end slavery throughout his political career. He viewed it as a blot on our nation. I don't understand why some in the woke movement believe he should be erased from our history.
here's a question? how do you feel about Bill Cosby?
Jefferson expressed concern about slavery before the revolution....and was relatively silent when president.
I never called Jefferson a racist or horrible person. Yes, he made an attempt ,when younger, to deal with the subject of slavery...the sentiment ,at that time was slavery ,as an institution, would eventually end..
@@juliegoldman411 Because if he hadn't, we wouldnt have had a united country, and the entire Revolution would have been impossible.
People should be certain that slavery was/is a humain aberration, one of the biggest threat for a society.
More importantly : Only one civilisation abolished this horror when others saw nothing wrong nor immoral about it. Even today modern slavery exists and this should be our main concern.
Only one civilisation ended it everywhere else at an enormous human and money cost with no request for any kind of remuneration. Probably the most great exemple of abnégation in human history.
In america, our great funding fathers created the condition that allowed the end of this, not the other way around. But guess what ? It is not easy politically to end a social institution just because you feel like you have to.
Obviously , 200 years later it is easy to say : they were not fast enough to end it or, they owned slaves so they were hypocrite.
real courage and real history impact are defined by the hability of great men to create better condition for tomorrow
I wonder when far left tears his statues down ?
@@douglasvilledarling2935 how many Black Hebrew Israelites are there? True Hebrew Israelites believe Africans sold Israel to Americas. Many find out African and Hebrew mixed and embrace Africa. Many rastafarians are born again Christians and I mean famous ones.
In fairness to Annette, she mentions in a speech, not sure here or not, that he is too important to be forgotten because of all of the things he did but protecting a statue is a different issue. I don't like them coming down but there is a place for them as well I think.
Students Mizzou are trying to take one down now. Luckily the university is standing their ground so far.
They are doing it now and not only the far rich. Jefferson's own hypocrisy has led the removal of his
statutes. Hypocrites should not be put on pedestals.
@@corazoncubano5372 yup saw this one comin
Too bad her book wasn't more interesting. Lots of facts, but dry as dust - took me 3 weeks to get through it, and I'm a voriacioce reader.
I haven't read her book yet though I always wanted to. But history books are like that. I have a Mary Queen of Scots book that I can't get through to save my life its do dry. Yet books on the Tudors are great and entertaining
Should her Name be Sally Jefferson rather than Sally Hemming ? after all she had at least six (6) children with Thomas Jefferson and lived with him since she was a small child ! and he was fifty (50) ! . A female child of eleven years old couldn't give consent for sexual relations with a (50) year old man ! .
Learn some history. Back then, the average lifespan was 25.
Can't take his name if they never married.
Here's the thing! Thomas Jefferson was awesome, this is a man who took the whole idea of democracy and freedom to levels unseen before, and he was one of the people who basically formed the basis for the modern world, which largely was formed by America.
Here's a fact! Slavery was, unfortunately, commonplace in those days. Africa was full of tribes enslaving each other, Native American tribes used to enslave each other (often for purposes of human sacrifice), and in Europe you had a system known as feudalism (which is, basically, slavery).
Thomas Jefferson came from a time where slavery was acceptable. It doesn't make it right, but to judge him to such an extent is stupid. Like, I met a guy who was literally frothing out of his mouth with anger when speaking of Thomas Jefferson, but spoke with admiration about Mansa Musa, even though Mansa Musa owned thousands of slaves.
I mean, only this year they released this crappy film, The Woman King, about the Agojie warriors, and in the film they made it seem like some of them were against slavery, even though it has no historical basis. A huge part of their trade was in capturing and selling slaves.
I mean, overall, Jefferson's contribution to the world was positive. Did he take individual freedoms further? Yes, he did. Did he do it enough? No, but he moved the world in the right direction, and even if he didn't see it, minority rights and women's rights were the next logical step in this whole process. Can you say that about Mansa Musa or Agojie? Nope.
So, she's a lawyer that talks about evidence, but we should believe slaves just because they're slaves and they said so? Lol
We should also assume these white historians were disregarding testimony simply because they were black slaves?
She went to Harvard law? And just to be clear, I'm not saying Thomas Jefferson did or didn't do anything, but this certainly isn't good lawyering. It's just more virtue signaling nonsense.
This had just about nothing to do with Jefferson and everything to do with her. I was initially interested in reading her books. I think I've read enough between the lines.
The oral tradition of black ppl was long ignored .... wisely we listen today!
@@juliegoldman411 nope. We certainly don't and we certainly shouldn't. We should listen to any person of any color that has evidence and knowledge on the matter. That's what any respectable adult would do, anyway.
@@jimmyjimmy7240 , gee Jimmy I guess I'm not respectable
@@juliegoldman411 At least you have enough integrity to sarcastically admit it. But the truth is, you know I'm right, which is why your first and second comment both had no real relevance. You're going to ignore it because feeling inferior is something you've been trying to ignore your whole life, I'm sure. If you're weak, don't make others carry your burden, just stay silent and know your place.
@@jimmyjimmy7240 , your narcissism is amazing...and don't forget to vote for Trump in 24.