Perennialism vs. Syncretism - David Bentley Hart
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- čas přidán 26. 08. 2024
- David Bentley Hart lays out why he does not consider himself a perennialist.
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Sad that he starts out with the ad hominem fallacy, and then goes even more soy by saying Guenon and Schuon were 'not real scholars' and had 'bad politics' (in fact they had nothing to do with politics and discouraged people from getting involved in politics). He doesn't give any substantive reasoning whatsoever as to why Schuon and Guenon were in error. He then goes on to essentially paraphrase the perennial philosophy as what he 'endorses', while saying he rejects the perennial philosophy. I question if he's ever even read Schuon, Guenon, Lings, Cutsinger, Nasr.
'Schuon didn't speak out in favor of the civil rights movement; he was a racist'; what a joke. Didn't realize DBH was this soy and prone to defamatory ad hominem fallacies (and false ones at that). Glad I found this video. Instructive for me on his own character.
Also ironic that Schuon was actually in the French army during WWII, was captured by the Nazis and escaped from their prison camp.
you have a nazi symbol as your icon and used the term 'soy', there is no argument with you, you are not a contender, you have in essence confirmed the kind of person who would follow such people, and your comment on their politics when it is obvious you are politically driven is priceless.
@@Christianity_and_Perennialism Good point. Schuon actually fought fascism, and fled to Switzerland rather than be press ganged into the German army.
@@Christianity_and_PerennialismAre you in all the debates here on CZcams about perennialism? Why don't you accept that perennialism, Guenon, and all those you mention are anti-Western? You know, but you don't admit it. And you should know that National Socialism is against this. And we will defeat you, we will drive all of you Perennialists, Freemasons, Illuminists, Sufis, Dadaists, etc., out of this world. The Wes DID NOT FALL
Basically, while decrying the term, he describes his own view as approximating that of Huston Smith. Personally, I find both terms -- "perennialism" and "syncretism" -- when not taken as "systems," usable and congenial. The distinction between them has to do with intentionality; "perennialism" tends merely to "recognize" commonalities, while "syncretism" tends to be a conscious combining of similar religious perspectives within a larger framework. In fact, though, I think it's often in practice a distinction without a difference.
There is often a significant overlap I see in a lot of people’s works
Amusingly, Huston Smith was not only a card carrying Perennialist, he was also a Christian faqir initiated into Schuon's Maryamiyyah Tariqa order. With a full Islamic (Arabic) initiatory name.
Five times prayer etc. etc. Here is a telling quote from Prof. Smith. "Ever since I came upon his writings 20 years ago, Mr. Frithjof Schuon has been the most important intellectual and spiritual influence in my life... I regularly begin each day by reading, first a passage from sacred scripture, and follow this with something written by Mr. Schuon, for he "feeds my soul," as the saying goes, as does no other living religious thinker. During the last two decades I have sought out Mr. Schuon a number of times for intellectual and spiritual counsel, and though my visits have always been brief, I have become acquainted with a number of his followers in Bloomington and elsewhere who include in their ranks some of the most gifted and respected religious scholars of our day. As the author of the most widely used textbook on world religions for the last 30 years (The Religions of Man, now retitled The World's Religions), I think I know enough not only about Mr. Schuon and his followers but about the subject generally, to say that the charge that he heads a "degenerate cult," is bizarre in the extreme. The same holds, as far as I can tell, for the charge of "thought control." Mr. Schuon has profoundly influenced my thought, but he has never attempted to control it."
traditionalistblog.blogspot.com/2017/01/huston-
smith-1919-2016.html
It would seem, Hart, is as much acquainted with Smith's intellectual and spiritual trajectories as he is with core Traditionalist doctrines. 🤦🏽♂️
BROTHER WAR!!!!
It is also disappointing that Hart fails to recall the roots of the perennial philosophy in authors like Marsilio Ficino or Pico della Mirandola (and arguably implicitly in Meister Eckhart or Nicholas of Cusa) though he invokes their term prisca theologia in books and essays as if they could not be subjected to similar critiques, or severer ones, than the "Traditional School." They did not see themselves as syncretists but were committed to retrieval of the esoteric wisdom they held was taught by the ancients and passed down by Pythagoras, Moses, Zoroaster, the Neoplatonists, and others to every major world tradition, positing a transmision thesis leaning on the Corpus Hermeticum. The Mosaic origin of pagan wisdom was also a truism in Jewish philosophical and Kabbalistic circles, found in such thinkers as Leone Ebreo and Yohanan Alemanno who exercised a formative influence on Renaissance and early modern perennialism in the Christian context.
I heard him in a podcast once discuss that he was wary of the route that Perennialism takes to Traditionalism, which he sees as particularly destructive. By not hitching his wagon to Perennialism & Traditionalism he is being careful not to ally himself with a particular school and the dogma in it. I think he's getting at a particular impulse here that might be present in those schools without linking directly to them.
He doesn't fail to recall anything. Just because the perennialists drew on earlier, much greater thinkers doesn't make them part of a very modern school of thought.
Hart has, unfortunately, propagated a string of factual inaccuracies here. Guénon was antimodern but quietist in politics, sympathetic as he was to the largely irrelevant monarchist camp in France. He explicitly distances himself from any activism in politics, which is true of most of those who adhere to his perspective. Schuon moved to Indiana, not Ohio, not during the height of the Civil Rights movement but in the 1980s. He had been adopted by members of the Lakota Sioux and Crow tribes, whom he invited to share certain practices with openminded Sufi practitioners in the context of the Boomer generation's hippie/New Age enthusiasm for world religions, including Sun Dance chief and medicine man Thomas Yellowtail.
The romanticization of indigenous spirituality that Schuon and Yellowtail taught is of a type typical among Native American authors and scholarly interpreters of a certain vintage. The two brief essays of Schuon reflecting on race and caste are not hidden away but have been available continuously in English since 1959 in the book Language of the Self; the Castes and Races standalone edition is out of print but extant (with text identical to what is printed in the Language of the Self). The essays are best characterized as impressionistic appreciations of ethnic difference that sometimes seem awkward or cliché by contemporary standards but were anything but racist for a book written by a European in the 1950s.
As to "bad scholarship," Hart fails to read all of these figures against the relevant contexts of Orientalist condescension and occultist legerdemain (e.g. that of Blavatskian theosophy, etc.) into which their work was an intervention. They got plenty of details wrong but were more rigorous than other popular spiritual writers affirming the universality of wisdom traditions and less prone to gloss over differences than authors Hart prefers and thus declines to criticize like Aldous Huxley or Swami Vivekananda, whose Ramakrishna Vivekananda Society set an influential standard for the intellectually unserious perennialism of Advaita, Neo-Vedanta, and spirituality circles worldwide.
Could you point out further reading regarding "occultist legerdemain" and "intellectually unserious perennialism"? Very interesting.
@@TheGerogero david bently hart is a good case of the second category..
One does not need to be specifically a Guénonist-Schuonist to be a perennialist any more than one needs to be a Marxist-Leninist to be a socialist. The latter concepts are prior to the former.
Hart accuses perennialists of poor scholarship, and then goes on to make a host of basic errors in under five minutes.
- Schuon didn't live in Ohio
- Schuon moved to the US in the 80s
- Meaning of Races has been translated into English
- It is not racist
- Guenon never supported fascism, but had plenty of criticisms of nationalism (i.e. the doctrinal heart of fascism)
this david hart is just a biggot, he's not a serious author
Mr. Hart didn't mention Perennialist scholars - Eknath Easwaran, Karen Armstrong, Huston Smith & Joseph Campbell.
Sorry to say, but he accuses Perennialist authors of being bad scholars, and says that Schuon book on races has not been translated and published, suposedly in English. I have this book, not only in English, but in French, in Portuguese, Spanish, and Italian. It is a clarifying book, not racist at all. David Hart did not do his homework, he is speaking of things he does not know, or knows insuficiently. It is a shame.
God forbid someone doesn't know the publishing history of an author he doesn't even like. Sorry it seemed to trigger you so bad
@@windwaker01 I think you're missing the point. There's wrong at all in not knowing the publishing history of an author you don't like. But to go on about that author or one or other of his books as if you do know, when you don't, and to defame him in such ugly terms ("racist" etc), is a different matter entirely.
The Orthodox scholar James Cutsinger was convinced that Martin Lings was a saintly figure. I thought I would set that as a counterpoint to what D B Hart said, although he's doubtless right about Schuon and Guenon. I have no dog in the fight as I am not a Perennialist.
You know, the book of enoch and 2 esdras has eternal hell fire or endless torment and i think also many christians believe in eternal hell fire or everlasting punishment or endless torment or eternity hell fire thats what many believes even pastors , christians and people many believe in eternal hell fire or endless torment
@@vince.sarigumba And?
Dr Hart and Dr Cutsinger were acquainted, so I wonder if they ever discussed perennialism and their respective views on figures like Schuon and Martin Lings. If so, that would have been a conversation worth hearing. FWIW I remember Dr Hart once calling himself a 'crypto-perennialist'. There, as here, he was careful to draw a line between his position and that of certain well-known perennialists. This excerpt feels a bit short - Dr Hart seemed like he was going to say more about John Hick.
@@richarddavies6417 Robert lyte he said he know a christian who has faith in Jesus Christ and fall into sin and live in sinning and if that Christian do not repent and turn and Ask Forgiveness and Cleansing To The Lord she go to eternal fire where there is no rest day and night . Robert lyte also believe eternal hell
Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life. All truth found in any number of religious traditions or philosophies will ultimately lead back to Him. All truth is God’s truth.
'Truth' that Christians 'interpret' (make up) as they go along.
perennialst salute you..long may you live under the veil of the saving maya of religious exlusivism..just don't vote trump please.
What content can we give to _religio_ as a virtue as opposed to a closed system of beliefs? What are the virtues associated with _religio_ or what is the virtue of _religio_ ? Clearly, the different religions have similar yet different virtues.
DBH has some interesting things to say about religion, unfortunately it seems his political views tend trump his religious views. He frequently resorts to ad hominems and other low-tier pseudo-intellectual tricks. He relies on sophistry to hide the fact that he's written people off simply because they aren't socialists. I guess he missed Jesus's frequent critiques of ideological prisons and dogmatism.
Its not exactly a tribute to Harts fairmindedness to hear him reject all insights of the perennialists because he doesn't like their politics. None of these people even actively participated in politics. Does Hart reject Islam in toto because of its politics, so similar to that of Guenon and Schuon?
Politics and religion are deeply intertwined. Religious systems often internally prescribe a political system as well. Perennialism forces one narrative on genuinely diverse traditions, eradicating their diversity to conform to a higher structure. This is definetely a thought structure compatible with fascism
@@thefloweriwishiwere1026 conversely, communism and fascism and the opposition to each are ideologies framed by the current power structure and designed to keep us fighting each other rather than the powers that be. So Hart is just helping their divide and conquer strategy succeed.
@@thefloweriwishiwere1026 Perennialism isn't even remotely compatible with fascism. Fascism is thoroughly modernist, perennialists reject modernity wholesale.
@@JN-xb6pq Strange then how many perennialists were fascists and eugenicists. Most people who talk about "rejecting modernity" don't actual do it, because they don't know what they talk about. A surface-level modernist interpretation of some thinkers from antiquity is the only thing i've ever read from perennialists. The only exceptions i know is Richard Rohr and Aldous Huxley to some extent.
@@thefloweriwishiwere1026 To begin with, perennialism does not eradicate the cultural diversity of traditions, it honors them and avoids the syncretism of the New Era. Modernity is essentially materialist, relativist, secularist, constructivist and post-structuralist, in its ultimate consequences postmodernism finds its solipsistic nominalist pleasure in rejecting any form of universal metaphysical theory. Perennialism is against all that and some of the most powerful arguments are in the traditionalist school.
I'm afraid you are attacking huge straw dolls.
"Guenon was a fascist"
Bro what?
Well I personally like the traditionalist school of perennialism and perennial philosophers like Ananda Kumaraswami, his ideas aren't really racist at all. He tried to say that Buddhism and Hinduism in Sri Lanka comes from the same core and share simillar concepts. Today his ideas are mostly forgotten in Sri Lanka and these differences in 'religion' creates a massive divide almost akin to racism. What could have been 2 philoosphical systems with the same core thar can actually even be practiced together has become 2 monolithic religions. It just depends on the context what people are really talking about and I think perennialism is a great school of thought. Syncratism really destroys the two ideas sometimes while perennialism preserves differences and teaches common origins and thought. So I do really disagree on what this video says and sounds it really eurocentric to me.
I'd love to listen to the full interview, do you know where it's available?
I haven't released the full interview anywhere at this time. I'm currently working on putting together a feature-length documentary on DBH so much of the interview will be in that
@@LoveUnrelentingwhen will the documentary be finished you think?
@@oneluv66 Less than a year, but probably more than six months from now
Interesting take.
How does the seeming a la carte selection btw religions and even within the varied streams within a particular religion relate to one's embeddedness or initiation to these religions?
Does that make sense? I'm sure David would have a good answer to this. But, I guess, I'm wondering how is this not just individualism vs the dogmatic closed systems of a closed traditionalism or confessionalism.
your question looks lonely and longing for an answer, but its not dressed up very well and hence has struggled to attract any takers.Ill try and answer what i think is your query.
In trying to be all things Schuon become the worst of all of them. As he himself said in practicing one religion fully you are fulfilling all religions. Not following any prophet fully as an esoterist you eventually end up following the devil and embodying nothing but your ego. There is a spectacular irony and divine providence in what happened , he had to prove by his own disgrace the fate of those who dont follow his warnings. It also knocked the elitist traditionalist school right off its pedestal so that it could no longer be an identity anyone could be proud of .This is actually exactly how it should be as perennialism is far too dangerous for a large number of people to negotiate properly It a clear and stark warning , once we get the basic idea of Perennialism , put the idea behind thee and get on with the actual practice of embodying a religious truth. The muslims that came out of Perennialism well are those that left him for akbarain sufism.Ibn arabi has everything that Schuon has and much more ,but its all safeguarded by the cosmic muhammedan reality which for someone who adopts islam is the one and only way.
OK, he's a syncretist... now I understand his hate.
Calm down
@@1otterclan Tell him.
If I had half the IQ of David Bentley Hart. Then I would have an IQ of 200
No no no he's full of flannel.. Lots of words salad.....
Schuon moved to Indiana (not Ohio) in the early 80s. He did *not*, as DBH claims, "[live] in [the US] during the heights of the civil rights movement and never once [speak] in its favour" - while David Bentley Hart himself is now living through the period of the Israeli genocide of Gazan Palestinians and has barely said a word against it in over eight months. (There are other factual errors besides in this unseemly tirade, as others in the comments have pointed out.)
Good point.
Since Hart discusses a lot of perennialist themes in his books, such as apokatastasis, is he having a case of Harold Bloom's anxiety of influence?
Only if you think apokatastasis is exclusive to perennialism
(HINT: it isn't)
@@windwaker01 So what? Apokatastasis was just an example. Both of your replies are beside the point.
Its an inferiority complex/spiritual rivalry/envy...its so obvious ... He doesn't have Schuons prophetic face (bad prophet that he was) or his unrivaled metaphysical insights(which actually were too promethean to not upset the gods of Maya)..hart is just trying to make a niche for himself and say he is better than the traditionalist. he is boring and there is no sense that of the sacred in his persona...a thinker not an sage..and a lightweight one who would not even be able to have a leg to stand on without referring to the traditionalist canon..
How many languages did these perennials each know ? These poor scholars! No hesitation pointing fingers on ethical things are you a saint? Wants i. Your closet
If I’m not mistaken both Guénon and Schuon were strong in about 6-7 languages each.
David Bently Hart -Hartily Dislikes Perennialism
Guenon was a fascist? He literally despised all the politics of this world, that is obvious if you read at least one of his books. What seems obvious: Bentley Hart has no interest in TRUTH, all he cares about is the agendas he puts in his pocket.
Guenon could have made mistakes, but to take away all of his merit of recovering the sense of sacred intellectuality and symbolism is utter blindness. I had bought a book of Hart and I'm not going to read it because of this nonsense. If you want to speak badly of an author, do them justice, this is completely one-sided, Hart has admitted in his books that he is one-sided.
Guenon was a fascist? Hard to take anything Hart said after that seriously. By his own confession, Guenon was quite apolitical.
He's right about Perennialism. That aside, though, Hart stopped being truly, intentionally Orthodox a long time ago. Syncretism completely and utterly undermines the uniqueness of the salvific realty of the life, death, and resurrection of Christ.
Utterly? Those are some vague terms to stand on. What do you mean by "intentionally Orthodox"? You state this as fact in your wording.
he is so wrong....and yes christ salvific power is unique...but so is the buddhas and muhammeds...etc..when you try to mix them into your own image you lose them and their uniqueness and thus you don't get saved by any of them.
I agree with Hart on this one. Perennialism needs to force every tradition under one contained truth, while disregarding all the special aspects they contain as cultural artifacts. It has a certain authoritarian element, annihilating everything that makes traditions unique to build one singular metanarrative over it. To be very inflammatory, it is similar to fascism. Every difference, be it race, sexual orientation, gender or religion has to be annihilated in favor of a single Identity, the nation, which makes individuals nothing more than cogs in a machine.
It is the opposite of the christian way. The diversity of the world and its traditions reflect God in unique ways. Syncretism allows to be respectful towards other narratives and reaches the higher truth through the telling of your own story.
Perennialism in the broader sense doesn't have those issues tho necessarily. If it manifests itself only in the way of being open towards the knowledge of other narratives, it isn't problematic, but i would argue this being closer to syncretism in reality
Namo Buddhaya
I’m going to try to explain my viewpoint on this, although I’m not sure under which category you would place it.
In every nation, people are born, through no fault of their own, into the religious beliefs and traditions of that nation, being indoctrinated from a young age into their respective belief systems.
I believe that those who follow the benevolent and loving aspects of those religions at least demonstrate to God, that they at least have the desire for God, and if not chosen in this age to know Jesus Christ, they will without hesitation believe in him when he reveals himself to them in the purification process of the lake of fire. They may very well be the first ones to get out.
This is called partial inclusivism. And I agree. The thought I would distinguish between indoctrination and merely being brought up in x beliefs household.
So basically he'd sign up for a one world religion under the AC is how this sounds.
I hope not. I don't know if he would. You aughta just ask him if you can. What's the AC? Dontchya mean the UN?
No, he clearly says that each religious tradition can both learn from and teach the other traditions. He also says 'religion' is a virtue that can be cultivated in various ways.
@@Necroman98 AC = antichrist led UN
you say "You aughta just ask him if you can" --- he think's he's outsmarted the Bible. He dismisses it and disagrees with it on things. He doesn't respect it as a total authority. He also studies other religions and thinks they have truths too and yet is not solidly rooted in trusting the Bible. This is a recipe for one world religion acceptance through and through for him
No, he's just acknowledging that every ounce of truth isn't just limited to your particular tribe. Even Paul quoted pagan philosophers like Aratus, Menander, Epimenides to help illuminate the truth of the Gospel.
@@BlastBeatRequiem if you are grounded in scripture, perhaps considering some things a philosopher may say is reasonable, but studying and searching for truth in false religions of demons is foolish and that is what Hart does while rejecting the Bible according to his own "superior reasoning" over the Bible
@joachim847, it's unfortunate that your devotion to Donald Trump compromises your faith as well as your ability to enjoy Hart's well informed problem with an obvious monster.
I find the politics of DBH to be distasteful. His long Trump Derangement Syndrome has besmirched several of his otherwise excellent books.
Trump wasn’t mentioned in this interview.
DBH is still my number one guy Him and Keith Ward are the best! And I vote for Trump👍
@@michaelcanterbury7400 My man.
@@Danobot11No one said he was
I have to agree. His political asides in you are gods ruined what we’re otherwise without a doubt some of his most insightful work to date.
DBH is so bold - he calls out what needs to be called out and proclaims what should be adopted
Yep, and he does it thoroughly and convincingly. One of the very greatest minds of our time.
Hart makes several mistakes about schuon and guenon. first of all, syncretism is an error, rather what is relevant is synthesis. syncretism is what the new age does. secondly, regarding the charges against schuon, charges were dropped. moreover, i do not see the relevance of ad hominem arguments. it is true the cult of schuon, but not of guenon. etc.
Where have the charges been dropped?
And in what way is syncretism an error, especially by virtue only of being connected to the new age? If an observation from any system is objectively true, what is the shame in syncretism, if not done arbitrarily or self-indulgently?
These are ad-hominems because he does not enter into detail. I do not think the charge of fascism contra Guenon, a traditionalist, is unfair- although it is not the fascism of Mussolini, but a colloquialism. And that Guenon has made mistakes? This article, "The Yugas: Their Importance in India and their Use by Western Intellectuals and Esoteric and New Age Writers," for instance- enumerates, in my view, a short number of his absurdities. I am ignorant about Martin Lings or Schuon, but the following (hideous) link could provide a list of grievances, so long as you press ctrl+F and type 'Schuon' in each thread selected. It is not clear to me that he has been cleared of anything.
forum.culteducation.com/search.php?
12,search=frithjof+schuon,author=,page=1,match_type=ALL,match_dates=0,match_forum=ALL,match_threads=0
yes this is very new age and hindu thinking. Dangerous stuff. The Bible is the solid foundation Christians stand on and Hart promotes just dabbling in everything and getting deceived by demons basically.
@@TheEternalClown Syncretism is nothing more than a hodgepodge and pastiche of vulgar universalism “New Age”, Guenon completely dismantled the New Agers of his time (the Theosophists). The "accusations" of "fascism" against Guenon are only empty words that fall into the ridicule of ignorance (both by banally using the term fascism as a synonym for "authoritarian" and by linking it to traditionalism), it is obvious that Guénon was not competing for political power and repeatedly stated his total disdain for any political activity.
Regarding the accusations against Schuon, they were dismissed by the prosecutor a month later, furthermore, in the American judicial system you cannot defame the dead and the plaintiff was prosecuted for misappropriation of property and embezzlement of funds anyway.
@@TheEternalClown Charges were dropped in Indiana.
@@ClearLight369Yeah, and OJ was found not guilty