Cruel Caricatures of Comics Pros
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- čas přidán 19. 10. 2020
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Sometimes comic book pros decide to create a really mean caricature of a fellow comics creator and to include it in their comic. Some of these, based on people like Stan Lee, Jim Shooter, and John Byrne have been really cruel. This episode takes a look at some of the more notorious examples. - Zábava
"He can detach his spine to escape."
Holy cow, talk about a burn.
Fr that wasn't even subtle that had to hurt
Kinda like Kirby could detach his brain when writing and also when lying about Stan, with Roz being the harpy on his shoulder. Kirby becoming so bitter that he became a backstabber and a liar really is the saddest aspect of the whole tale.
@@GodLovesComics It's really a "he said, he said" situation. They were likely both in the wrong one time or another.
@@dreamlandnightmareI don't doubt that over half a century they both may have wronged or slighted one another in some way. But I think it's a false equivalency to say they were equally offensive. Stan never said a negative word about Kirby publicly and spent his entire lifetime (Stan literally worked for Jack and Joe Simon when he was a teenager) praising Kirby. Meanwhile Kirby savaged Stan with the Funky Flashman caricature and later told Gary Groth that Stan "never wrote a word" and couldn't even spell. That was just a blatant and childish lie. But the problem is that Kirby obsessives demonize Stan and Vinnie Coletta, and yet they can never admit any fault in Kirby.
Please get well Chris. Don’t exhaust or stress yourself and if you need to take a break me and many others will understand.
Agreed!
The word is a crazy place right now so your mental health and self care comes first. Take care of you. Love the content as always
All too true. I feel as if theres been a global decline of mental health recently. Really shows how distracted we are from being ourselves and how little we really know who we are
So basically this is the adult version of High School me drawing/writing unflattering or concerning things of my enemies and least-favorite teachers.
As the song goes, high school never ends. If you’ve never encountered that in adult life in the working world, consider yourself extremely fortunate.
@@JunkyardKid what song
Same
@@JunkyardKid WHAT GARBAGE SONG IS THAT!
Chris, you must know that your work brings joy to all of us comic book lovers, and we treasure everytime that bell notify us that you have uploaded something new, you are original and you do valuable work for the comic world. We live in very depressing times and its getting harder and harder to leave bed each morning and find motivation to make the most of our day, believe me I know. But we must keep in mind that this fight will bring us a great reward and make us apreciate more what we had in simpler times. Keep doing what you love Chris, even if you can't do it has often has you would like, because even you realease a video once a month we'd still love you and what you do for all of us. And never stop reading comics..
Yep! I second that!
@@aweigh1010 Why thing will get better if Trump is already in the office?
Only CZcams comments could turn a lighthearted video with a heavy personal message at the end into a political discussion on Trump/Biden. Whatever your stance on the issue might be, can we all agree this isn’t the place for such things? Save it for FB, guy.
@@citizensguard3433 I know right? what a douche. You know what? Don't save it for FB go to Twitter where all the toxic people are.
+1
Hope you're doing well, Chris
Don't force yourself
Just take a break when you need it
A strange comic caricature has got to be Erik Larsen adding Johnny Redbeard to Savage Dragon as a recurring villain, whose power was to make derivative versions of preexisting characters. This was back when Image was getting a ton of crap from several comic pros. And Larsen wasn't shy about saying it was based on John Byrne. Larsen and Byrne snarked at each other for years. A few years later Johnny Redbeard showed up again in Dragon as a revamp who was mostly just a giant head called the Creator, who again just made derivative versions of preexisting characters, that Dragon beat the crap out of.
That's funny, considering the savage dragon was a derivative version of pre existing characters too. :)
Chris -- I was going through a tough period in my life at the end of 2018. My marriage was over, I was separated from my family, and I was struggling with depression.
During that period, I discovered your channel. Binging episodes of ComicTropes got me through some rough nights.
I want you to know how grateful I am for what you've done for me -- though I know you had no idea that you were doing it.
I know how hard it is to keep moving when you're struggling with depression, so try not to worry about us, your viewers. We want you to take care of YOU. If that means that you're not able to do as many videos, well, that's okay.
You're awesome -- don't forget that.
That was lovely to hear. I hope you are doing better. It's important to remember that we can all struggle at times, it is not a sign of failure. It just means we a re human.
@@MariaVosa I am doing better -- thank you :)
And thank you for your kind words =D
Take care
We stan Chris, life is not easy right now, for some more than others. My heart goes out to you, keep being you
Negative caricatures of colleagues in their own books is so unprofessional. As for poor old Roy Thomas, he was a fanboy turned office gopher, and eventually took over all Stan's books and carried forward Stan's style. Sycophant would be a mean term for Roy given his general enthusiasm and good will. But I suppose any one who takes the role of Editor in Chief, including Jim Shooter, is going to inevitably rub someone the wrong way for good or ill. As for your depression, I can totally relate. I've been dealing with severe depression for the last two years and somedays I don't know what to do. But its great seeing your videos because I feel like there's someone else out there I can relate to and share your interests. So keep on doing what you love and try to find positive distractions from the negative thoughts that creep in. I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say we're not going anywhere. So if you need a break, or a little longer between videos, do it. Look after number one because if you don't, we'll all be yelling at you to do it anyway. Hope you see the sunrise soon. I know its hard. Best from Maryland.
i more compare the Negative caricatures of colleagues in their own books to diss rap tracks!
plus Jim Shooter is Republican
Hey Chris, don’t feel guilty or anything. It happens to the best of us and I hope you feel better soon. Your content helps me and the community more then you know.
My first remembrance of a self insert was Jack and Stan getting stopped trying to get into the wedding of Reed Richards and Susan Storm.
Depression is a hard illness to manage, Chris. Don't feel guilty or beat yourself up about the slower pace. Your content is always fantastic and I know your entire fanbase is ride or die with ya.
Feel better, man!
One of my favorites is “Johnny Redbeard.” He was Erik Larsen’s swipe at John Byrne in “Savage Dragon.” Gave people superpowers and radically altered their lives, but the abandoned them once he grew bored with them. “The Nixed Men.”
Given the historical precedent, genuinely surprised Neil Gaimen hasn’t done a similar thing in the Sandman books, given his history with Todd Mcfarline
Pretty sure the McFarlane stuff came after The Sandman ended. But Gaiman has said that Marvel 1602 was as least partially done to fund his lawsuit against McFarlane
Well yeah, the mainstream comics industry is filled with chronically serial amounts of corruption. So is the mainstream manga industry and or any other comics industry in that regard.
If co workers could draw, I'd guarantee i would see much much caricatures of people i know.
For real. Remind me never to work with artists.
When I was at school I got into trouble for drawing caricatures of teachers, one of which was borderline libellous.
The late Marie Severin was well-known for doing caricatures of her colleagues at EC and then Marvel.
@@tentringer4065 pictures please.
@@biffenheimer lol just don't be a tool around artists and you'll be safe
You've done it again Chris, I'm excited to see this one. I know you've been struggling recently with depression and I just want to say I have been there as well. Keep your head up and keep making great content! Or don't, take a break if you have to. Take care of yourself!
*expected the Jim Shooter parody in Legends, leaves satisfied*
" I've seen enough, I'm satisfied "
Hey man, don't worry about the video schedule, we love your content nonetheless, this is a great channel and anything you do will be awsome, fight that depression and recover
Paul Grist poked some gentle fun at Alan Moore in the pages of Jack Staff when he introduced Morlan the Mystic.
"Detach his spine to escape" That's pretty good, no lie.
I remember when the F-men issue came out. The owner of my LCS from way back pointed it out to me, and I laughed my arse off reading it.
There was a Kirby bio comics recently, which touches on Kirby being annoyed by Thomas and basing a few characters on him.
My favorite caricature is probably Eightball's Doctor Infinity.
As someone who's been out of work since COVID and has had trouble finding work currently your videos bring joy to a tough couple of months. Take your time, thank you for your dedication and being honest.
Did Stan Lee wear a toupee in his later years? It's so weird seeing him bald in his youth actually made him look older.
He did, yeah.
I love ur content soo much man I start reading comics because of u
Greetings from Japan, Chris!
Don't care about getting slower Chris. I feel you, as many of us, got a lot of mental health issues because of the Pandemic or the ones we had before got worse. Thanks for all the job you do. A hug from Chile :)
Hey man it's a hard time. I found your channel in the before-times, and I've since binged through every single episode of Comic Tropes. Upload as often as you're able and don't push yourself! I feel you.
Hey Chris, I wanted to let you know that your show helped me when I was at my lowest point. I came home exhausted and defeated and there was no one else I could hear talk but your voice in your videos. Comic tropes is such a comforting thing to binge. Know you will never be thought of badly for taking things easier.
A brief cameo in the Beano!!! That is such an honour - the most popular comic in the UK for decades. That is really something to be proud of.
Chris, I found your channel during perhaps the darkest time of my life. It's been a great comfort, and as a comics creator myself, I got to learn everything from history to storytelling on top of the sheer fun.
These are exceptional times, and you make exceptional work, so while I hope you can work to your heart's content, I hope your heart *is content*. Take your time.
Thank you for opening up; it does satiate the curiosity of how you've been during these vicissitudes.
PS: Your interviews are fantastic. Plus, it's neat to see something intimate worth drinking coffee to, as opposed to 2-minute ambushes at their convention tables.
We're all living in hard times.
take it one day at a time.
For the last 20 years or so I've make my living off of booking bands and running night clubs, so except for my wifes unemployment and the few dollars I make DJing at KEXP I've been unemployed since March.
I tell myself over and over again - one day at a time, one step at a time, one breathe at a time.
We're living in depressing times, but the only thing constant about life is change, so things will change.
Ya just gotta wait it out.
Peace to you.
Ugh. That Mafalda in the fan arts hits hard now. Descansa en paz, Quino.
Kirby was such a kickass man, always sticking it back.
Roy Thomas was complicit in Lee's thorough screwing over of Kirby. To this day he lies and affirms Lee's lies that denied Jack's contributions.
I second the emotion that you're not alone with your depression. Last weekend I visited my mum and just before leaving on Monday morning I had a terrible breakdown. I'd be lying if I said I don't look forward to seeing much more great content from you, but take your time if you need it. Your health is the most important thing and everything else is secondary!
From an English point of view, that's a real honour to be featured in the Beano.
It really is an industry with an alarming amount of backbiting and very public about it.
While there may not have been bad blood before, Roy Thomas was definitely upset with Kirby about the whole Funky Flashman episode and felt it was very unfair to Stan (I don't imagine he was too happy about how he was made to look either...). He has talked about the situation and how he and some others felt when Lee welcomed Jack back to Marvel a few years later. He makes it clear that all was not forgotten.
For stuff missed out, while not a cruel caricature, it might have been worth recalling that Mr Miracle himself was actually based on a comic pro too.
You think having no spine is an accurate depiction of John Byrne? It might be a conventionally fitting depiction of a company man but surely that was precidely the cliche that Byrne was deliberately challenging when describing himself that way. Having a public disagreement with an industry giant like Kirby, who also happens to be one of Byrne's biggest personal heroes and inspirations, hardly seems like the act of somebody spineless (in fact given his tendency to pick a fight with just about everyone and anyone I tend to think that Byrne probably has far too much spine for his own good...).
I'm surprised there's no -- to my knowledge -- parodies and caricatures of Mort Weisinger out there, or "Busy" Arnold for that matter. A lot of stories about them portray them as tyrannical or exploitative, and would be perfect to at least use modifications of their names for some Mr. Burns-style boss figure.
The "Kenny Who?" strip in Judge Dredd was a pretty biting satire on the comic industry in the 1980s. The artist, Cam Kennedy made a caricature of himself in that one.
I really look forward to your videos Chris, but your own health comes first. Take care and know that what you do is appreciated.
Talk about Take That Me!
Someone once showed me a scene with a fake ad for a routine to make people ugly so they would be more noticeable. From what I’ve heard, that comic must have been savage (Note: I don’t know if 2000 AD is still running or if it’s still savage, hence the past tense).
Hey Chris, I suffer from severe depression as well. My passion of choice is writing and I've published a couple of novels but lately, even though I have more passion than I can describe, my depression gets the best of me. It steals my joy and keeps me down. It's a miracle if I can write a page a day. Anyways, I appreciate your transparency. Hang in there friend!
Thanks for highlighting aspects of the comic book industry that I never would've found out about otherwise
Yes! Ty
Oh Chris, I'm always ready for you!
Speaking as a professional caricaturist and comic artist, inserting a likeness is an entirely different kind of challenge. It's very difficult to speak to some of the motivations. I expect that while the office politics of the work undoubtedly comes into play but a lot of respect and possible affection can't be discounted. I generally don't draw folks I don't like but I've inserted friends into some rather dire situations too :) I'm sure some of those caricatured saw their appearances as a kind of cool badge of honor. Have a great day! I feel your depression in this weighty atmosphere and share the struggle. I appreciate you putting out these excellent videos as you can :) I'll have to try to send some of my own fan art caricature to hopefully add a bright spot to one of your days. Stay well!
I think the best (and most lovingly thought-out) was "Wolfman Marv" in Unamerican Gladiators, a Lobo 4-shot, who bears an odd resemblance to Wolverine...But you do what you have to Boo. You've brought me a lot of joy with your channel, and you deserve to get the same joy out of making episodes as you used to. Take the time you need- your fans will wait.
Hi Chris.
Roy Thomas when Kirby went to Marvel, started calling him Jack "The Hack" Kirby, because he said Kirby couldn't write.
It was a way to kiss Stan Lee's ass.
I think that justifies the characterization Kirby made of him.
Bye. Keep the good work.
Fernando Campos - Portugal
And did Roy Thomas create anything noteworthy himself? I draw a blank here.
@@rayvenkman2087 Wolverine, Vison, Carol Danvers, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, Adam Warlock, Ultron, Red Sonja, Ghost Rider etc
@MemphoWrasslin1 Wolverine is a co-creation between Len Wein, Roy Thomas and John Romita Sr and those ‘retreads’ still had a big impact on comics
@@damianpimpinella977 Vision was based on Joe Simon/Jack Kirby's the Vision
Video game developers do this too, either hiding rants about coworkers & executives in code or hiding parodies in NPCs or easter eggs.
Take the time you need to take to get right brother. I’m in the same boat but thanks to therapy and help I’ve been able to keep my ship from listing. I hope the same for you my friend, please take care and continue to be the thoughtful and kind person your fans know you to be. You’re never alone friend!
as someone who suffers from severe depression, I absolutely understand. you take as much time as you need to feel better, Chris. you do not owe us the show. hope you feel better soon!
Bill sienkiewicz (SP) during the Demon Bear saga of New Mutants put in a caricature of Alfred Hitchcock as one of the doctors operating on Dani Moonstar along with someone else, a dark haired guy who i SWORE i recognized as SOMEONE famous but could never pinpoint just who it was....
Funky Flashman is one of the oddest characters. He's in Secret Society of Super Villains for multiple issues and I had no idea why they were using the character.
Jack was the principal created of the Marvel Universe. The Kirby Estate settled a case against Marvel / Disney for undisclosed terms.
I would love it if you did an video talking about the history of The Beano and other British comic magazines, especially since I'm from Britain myself!
Hey Chris, I just wanted to let you know that your videos are always the highlight of me and my friend's day. We're always quoting your vids to each other and appreciate all the thought and work you put into them. I just wanted to send some positivity back at you for all the positivity you put out for us viewers. Take care of yourself and I hope knowing your videos make a lot of people smile can help. I know depression can just weigh a person down outta nowhere and burn you out but we all really appreciate the energy you put forth. You're awesome.
A great history that I think deserves its own episode is Doctor Thirteen Architecture and Morality by Brian Azzarello and Cliff Chiang, which also features both Grant Morrison and Geoff Johns as somewhat villains while criticizing the whole structure of redifining comics and comic book universes through reboots, revamps and reimaginings. Really good stuff.
This is a good one! I did not have any idea why there was Captain Thundersword in Secret Wars II!! It was one of the weirdest things to see in comics and I had no context back in the 80s.
This video really needs a sequel. Maybe even include ones of people who aren't comic pros?
When I read "The Deadly Dreams of Harlequin Ellis" in Justice League of America 89, I had no idea who Harlan Ellison was.
Hey man, you're great. A lot of us are dealing with depression, even more so this year for sure. With Winter coming, it gets worse too because of the weather. We're about the same age and I notice this with a lot of my friends. I think we don't realize we are ever changing and sometimes we think that the way we are at certain points in life are the way we are always going to be, and it's simply not true. After a friend kind sorta stabbed me in the back to get with a girl (some things never change) I finally gave in talked to a "grief councilor" lemme tell ya, best decision ever. Talking out loud a lot really helped me untie a mental knot. And professional or not, it's always good to talk so you should throw that update in there whenever ya like. You're a good guy Chris.
That spine removal escape is so good. Such an unsubtle attack. Lol
Just remember that life is more important than Internet videos, Chris. Depression is a bastard to overcome, and your hard work is evident in the channel. These videos can never be taken away, but your well-being and health can be if they aren't cared for.
I know about the severe depression, I am having the same, crippling most time. Take time for yourself, and know we are here for you.
Don't worry about it. Depression is hell. Your getting back. Keep keepin on. It's October 2021 now and your still putting out content. Love your show. Just found it recently. We have to be right with ourselves before we can get right with others.
As a guy that likes comics but never got around to read most of them due to not having the resources to do so, you bring me so much joy in terms of stuff I'm interested and don't know much about. I can tell you that any amount of work you do and you put into making these videos is worth it cause you can feel this warmth and passion into the topics and history that I couldn't find in similar channels, and trust me I've checked.
I know that having depression is not as easy as being told that you matter, and I do personally know that, but I also know that it might help for you to know that we all keep coming back because of you and the special touch you put into every video.
I'd recommend checking out "Hey Kids, Comics" by Howard Chaykin and "Inkspot" by Ted McKeever. Both are satires on the comics industry with clear and not so clear caricatures of famous comics vets. Also, for what it's worth, I remember an old interview with Mark Evanier in Comics Journal where he said something like, "I don't think John Byrne really believes this 'I'm happy to be a cog' nonsense, a cog is the most replaceable thing in the world." They included a footnote, "This was recorded right before John quit the FF, Starbrand, and Marvel Comics."
The world needs more positivity right now and the world needs more people like you. Take care, Chris.
Chris, buddy, please. You've got to take some time for yourself. Take a break from the channel if need be. We appreciate you and we will wait for you while you take some time for yourself. This channel is amazing and we're not going anywhere.
One caricature that I remember from John Byrne's run on Fantastic Four was when he satirized Neal Adams as a villain with the anagramatic name of "Alden Maas", who wanted to heat up the Earth's core in order to cause the planet to expand. The Thing teamed up with Mole Man to defeat him. It turns out that Neal Adams really does (or at least did in the past) believe in a crackpot geological theory that claims that the continents are moving, not because of plate tectonics, but because the entire planet is slowly expanding. Weird stuff.
Love the show, Chris! Don't mind waiting for episodes!
For a less mean-spirited caricature, there is the case of Gaston Lagaffe by Franquin, where many of the staff were based off of people working at Les Éditions Dupuis. But the piece that takes the cake is the recurring character of M. de Mesmaeker, that Gaston's boss (either Fantasio or Prunelle, depending on the era) tries to sign contracts with, to no avail. This was based on a fellow cartoonist, Jidéhem, whose real name was Jean de Mesmaeker.
Definitely gonna still be here to support you and these videos man !
Been subscribed to you since last year, I always appreciate the interesting angles you take on comics and the stories behind the panels
Chris,as a former combat vet(4 tours of duty in Iraq)diagnosed with severe ptsd,I too have been battling depression,just continue to get rest and do things that bring you joy.And as far as being tired all the time,you may have to change your diet and exercise if you;re not doing it already.
I love this show so much and get actually excited when I see an upload.
Gonna support as best I can for however long. Keep pushing.
All the best you, Chris. Your show is a welcome relief, and there's no obligation to publish them any faster than you can.
On the subject of caricatures, I think Stan Lee was made into a sleazy Hugh Heffner-type character who tried to get topless pictures of She-Hulk in a Fantastic Four issue.
Chris, if you see this then know that sometimes I curl up in bed depressed, not wanting interaction with anyone and suddenly a video from you pops up and I find myself forgetting my troubles etc and it really gives me a little lift. Love your vids, totally understand what you're going through and want you to know you're not unique in whats affecting you. Stay strong for yourself and us bud. We are all with you and all in this together.
In one of the San Diego Comic Con specials from DC handed out at the event, there's a Lobo short where he visits all a variety of booths, including Rob Liefeld where he pulls apart Rob limb from limb in an attempt to give him a proper anatomy lesson. :)
Keep up the great work man. You're videos are always the highlight of the day.
Hey man. I appreciate any shows you do get out. Always informative and always fun. Thanks.
I really loved the video, you pick the best topics that no one else covers. Thank you so much!
Thanks for sharing the ending. Your videos are really entertaining, and i look forward to them whenever they drop.
I think that Warlock story probably had the editors names thrown in just for fun.
Unlike Funky Flashman for Mister Miracle, that story is a critical part of Warlock's lore, or at least that initial soul gem arc. The cult fails to brainwash him, but his escape means his permenant loss of sanity, or at least exchanging his ideas of good vs evil for purpose vs death.
Then again, I don't know what Jim Starlin is like, maybe he's more cheeky than I give him credit for
Just rewatched this. Coincidentally, a few days ago I was watching an episode of the British TV crime drama New Tricks, in which a story about a plot to murder former spies had several characters named for British and American comics professionals. The story starts with the murder of journalist Simon Bisley, introduces spy Bryan Hitch, and later reveals that everything hinges on something called the Greg Rucka File, amongst others. I guarantee, 99% of the audience wouldn't have had a clue. Similarly, TV comedy/drama Jonathan Creek has an episode called The Black Canary (she's a stage magician but her outfit is identical to Dinah Drakes), another called Dr Strange and the House of Monkeys, and another set in an old mansion called Green Lanterns.
thx for all your great contributions to my day
Love your show Chris. Hope you feel better soon
Glad to catch it quick
So glad to see you still around Chris!!!
Thank you very much, Chris. Once again, a great episode! I wish you all the best
Your work has been one of the things I have looked forward to during these strange times. Thank you.
Thank you so much for all the work you do, take care of yourself! ♥️
Great episode, Chris! You provide the best researched episodes in the business. I learn something new each time.
As someone who is also dealing with depression, I understand how you feel. Take your time making episodes, we'll wait
This was very informative and entertaining; I love your content. You hang in there and take things one day at a time.
love the content chris, just started watching a couple months ago. you were the main reason i got into comics, and i'd like to wholeheartedly thank you for that. i'm sure i speak for the rest of your audience when i say that we care a lot about you and that we understand that your mental health should always come first. best wishes!
Chris take your time, we love you and we will accompany you in this crazy year. Those are good ideas and I trust we will see them eventually.
Take care and see you in the funny papers.
Love you! Thanks for all the content!
Your level of research and overall work you put in your videos is amazing
Love your videos Chris! Thank you so much.
Great video! I look forward to your show whenever you can create. Thank you for being transparent, and keep up the fight, dude!
Mental health is everything! Thanks for the update, it made me feel less alone. Much love!