Jeff Ocheltree - Trust Your Ears, Complete Bonham section
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- čas přidán 15. 11. 2008
- This is an excerpt from Jeff Ocheltree's DVD, "Trust Your Ears," in which he talks about John Bonham's drumkit and micing technique. It also includes a performance on the kit at the end of the video.
I know the beginning of this video was already uploaded here, but I didn't find the rest of it, which is equally if not more awesome, as the Banham mic technique has been a point of interest for many people for decades. - Hudba
Its good to see these drums being played and not sitting in a museum. Instruments like these were meant and built to be played, not showcased. Doesn't matter what famous person played these drums, at the end of the day they were built to be played.
Wow !! Note for note !! This kid is amazing !!!
I've watched this video quite a few times and always come away impressed with Mark's playing. Close your eyes and it's J.B.
Instablaster...
Jake Bronson? Definitely not John Bonham. He's got some of the motifs down, but doesn't sound like Bonham much other than that.
Ignore the haters. Great playing man. I think you got the spirit and the sound just right. Great job!
I so agree!
I don’t know about haters, but Bonham’s son went on Instagram to refute Jeff Ocheltree. He was never Bonham’s drum tech. His drum tech was named Mick Hinton. All of this came up when Ocheltree started to defraud people out of money using the Bonham name to sell drum sticks. Jason Bonham was rightly pissed.
Snare sounds AMAZING!
Bonham had THE best drum sound in rock...and he was the best rock groove player...accident? made for the most lethal combination of sound, power, and groove. i am amazed at the LZ drum sound he got. allowed for less notes to communicate.
When that kid is playing at the end I have to admit, it sounds quite close to the sound on "How The West Was Won." Great work!
Sitting here with the guitar it sounds like this:
Hi Tom= B on both sides
Mid Tom= F# on top F on the bottom
Low Tom= C# on top C on bottom
Snare = G# on top G on bottom
Kick = B on top E on bottom
Grenade Hand I remember reading these same notes that I got from an App on my phone... Good job Grenade
+Grenade Hand Yep!! Lots of people think "How could it be the same if he clearly says that the bottom was pitched up hire than the top? Wellll.....If you understand how music and notes and all that junk works in theory then you should be able to understand how this thing works. Its just look tuning the 2 E strings on a guitar. High E, Low E...
*****
Octaves
Hi, I got the readings using a TuneBot and external speakers. They are in Hz and corresponding note as follows .
starting at 3:45
Using drumstick
--------------
HT: 129-130Hz /3C
MT: 97Hz /2G
LT: 75Hz /2D
BD: 89-90Hz / 2F
Using Mallet
--------------
SD: 200-201Hz / 3G
HT: Beater 125Hz Reso 126Hz / 2B
BD: Reso: 80Hz/ 2E
MT: Beater 96Hz 2G/ Reso 89Hz 2F
LT: Beater 70Hz 2C#/ Reso 74Hz 2D
Beware though, you'll need to invert the tunings bcs the note from the opposite head is the most prominent
This is the great legendary JHB sound, WOW! Mr. John Henry Bonham!! Say no more!
Especially the bass drum.
great post! thanks for putting this up.
that was just so enjoyable thanks for making that possible let's just hope I can get someone sounding a little bit like that...
He also prefered the heads played-in, as compared to always changing them when worn.
Jeff is such a great guy, been a while since I got to hang with the guy but I wish him the best! spice maniac lol!
In the last year someone with a Bonham influenced kit asked me how they should tune their drums. I remembered this video.
That was fun!...and I actually learned something for my own sounds!!...what I hate these days is when the techs are ALWAYS trying to convince me to have an "80's over processed sound" to MY KIT! ( as if they knew better than me, in what my sound was supposed to be!) I'd have to argue with them quite a bit in order for them to not RUIN what my drums should sound like in the mix when live AND in the studio! THIS demonstration is what I have always been going for!! Thanks!!!
Second that.. As well as loathing the way too overused D112 for mic'ing kick drums. I watched a shoot out of a bunch of "Kick Drum Mic's" once.. They sounded the exact same no matter what drum they were on. Wtf!? I have had a 1929 Ludwig Pioneer, All Mahogany 14 x 26 bass drum since 1992, thing has been everywhere, and on lots of recordings. No hole/muffling.. Just the equivalent of felt strips on the reso head, but contained and affixed to the inside Just to tame a little overtone, not kill it. Every time a sound guy tries to mic with the usual suspects, (as well as complain about no hole) I politely educate them, suggest using the mic i travel with, (same in vid above) and after much grumbling,.. there's a pair of giant eyes asking how it sounds so good. ...Not sure what they teach now in engineering schools other than Cookie-Cutter methods en masse. , but it's really too bad. Anyway cheers!
Completely nailed the tone down to a science. GREAT!
Wow watching him play was the best part of the whole video.
This is a very helpful tool for anyone to tune their drums well. I have a new GS Ludwig kit in these sizes and I apply these tips and the drums sound identical! Awesome! My sound man loves the way they sound in the PA. Best kit he's ever mixed. This is a foolproof method to tune. And Ludwig are the best drums.
Bonzo met Jeff Ocheltree in Switzerland in 1973 at a Billy Cobham concert. They stayed in touch over the next several years. Then, one day, Bonzo called Jeff to try him out as a drum tech, and was quite impressed. Bonzo's previous tech, Mick Hinton, knew only how to set up the drums. Jeff took his job much farther. He impressed Bonzo with his knowledge of not only setting up, but tuning and maintaining the equipment as well.
Charles Elliott lol billy cobham and john bonham
then Bonham's sound could have been "better" had he known/used Jeff before he became his tech? ...food for thought. As Rock drummers go, The Royal Albert Hall video, 1970(?) w/ the maple kit is the best sounding drums I've heard.
TheFabioOrchedella who doesn’t like ham?
Jason Bonham says on his Instagram that none of this is true.
MIck Hinton was amazing and Jeff Ocheltree never worked as Bonham's drum tech. Stole Mick's laurels and slandered him.
@mariorossipuzza: Yes, that was the ply configuration used by Ludwig and some other drum companies up until the mid to late 70's. Two thin outer and inner plies (usually maple or/and mahogany) and a thicker middle ply from a cheaper wood, usually poplar.
This is a reply to the last two posts.
This is the way I mic my set more or less. It is really the only way I want to mic a drum set ever again. The idea is that if your set sounds really good when you are just standing there listening to it being played, then it should sound great recorded. This mic set up is used to capture the actual sound of the set. It also requires very minimal EQ but to EQ it would defeat the purpose because it would effect all the drums together.
That is exactly the Madison Squere Garden 1973 Moby Dick solo! Great Job!
I respect Jeff very much. He was not with John his whole career as he had stated. I've seen plenty of pics of Bonzo in the studio, but never saw the felt strip sticking out anywhere. I'm a pro drummer as well - I've looked at a ton of Bonzo pics. I've made corrections on Led Zep main Wikipedia page & John Bonham's as well. He may have done that felt strip thing on In Through the Out Door album, but I never saw it live or in the studio. I know - that it can't be hidden, but his bass drum doesn't sound "muffled" to me.
That's because he used a Ritchie ring on the front of his bass drum
Great video.
Great job on the solo!
I actually meant to say a perfect 4th, not 5th. Sorry for the confusion. "Here Comes The Bride" is a 4th interval. My bad.
My drummer just got an old Black Panther kit. That thing is from the early 70's, but man does it sound good.
@iamadog - A 12" drum head is a 12" drum head. You can put it on any 12" drum, it doesn't have to be designated as "snare side" in order to use it. I have a coated Diplomat on the bottom of my Superphonic and it sounds great.
It's actually a brand new vistalite kit he just uses to show how he puts on heads/felt on the bass drum. Basically how he sets up a kit out of the box.
Equipment:
3-ply Maple Drums
14x26 Bass
10x14/16x16/16x18 Toms
6.5x14 Ludwig Supraphonic LM402 (not chrome over brass)
Speed King Pedal
PAISTE GIANT BEAT/2002 CYMBALS
15" GB or 2002 Sound Edge Hi-Hat
18" Medium Crash (GB/2002)
24" Ride (GB/2002)
20" Medium Crash (GB/2002)
Ludwig Cowbell
Chain Ring
38" Gong
Yup, I can read, too. And I own this video. And there is a number. What I'm suggesting is now that he has them tuned, measure the tension and provide a reference number from which other players can start. Then go to your ears. Drum dials are great for documenting the settings once you got the sound where you like it. Getting that sound back after changing heads is a breeze.
John Bonham used a 4 piece Slingerland drum set on Led Zeppelin's first tour & very likely used it on LZ's first album as well. When he came to USA in late Dec 1968 - he most likely rented a set of Ludwig's, which were black pearl or sky blue pearl.
@twelvescofflenard I believe its a chrome plated Zinc shell.. the new ones are aluminum which makes for a drier sound.. close but not the same.. they still make the chrome over brass tho
The best tuned kit
@mariorossipuzza: Because at some point things in drum shell making changed. Rogers was the first to introduce a full maple 8-ply sell in the early 80's (the XP-8 Series) and from then on most drum manufacturers started experimenting with different woods and configurations, with full maple and full birch 6-8 ply tom shells, and 8-10 ply snare and BD shells having become the norm (but not without exceptions) in the last 20-plus years.
I nerded out and tried to find the pitch of each head, so here are my findings if you're interested. I'm not completely sure, especially about the rack tom and the bass drum, so please share your findings too! Here goes:Snare: C# batter, G# resoRack tom: G# batter, A# resoBass drum: F# batter, G# resoFloor tom 1: F# batter, G# reso (probably an octave above the bass drum. I think that's great for when you want to ride on the floor tom or use the two together in fills and whatnot. I.e. that "fake double bass" technique)Floor tom 2: C# batter, D# resoFor those who don't know theory, all those notes are in the F# major pentatonic scale. The snare drum reso head is pitched a perfect fifth above the batter, and the rest of the drums have the reso head a major second above the batter. That might be wrong because I thought I heard a C# in the rack tom, but it might have been an overtone. Either that or it's tuned A# batter, C# reso (minor third) and the G# I was hearing was an overtone. Not sure. And the bass drum was just a bit too muddy to tell for sure. Hope that helped! If you have the right size drums it would be awesome if you would try it out and tell me about the results! Im gonna go try it on my (smaller) drums and see how it turns out.
(restating to adjust for CZcams's silly text editing): Snare C#/G#, rack G#/A#, bass F#/G#, floor 1 F#/G#, floor 2 C#/D#.
What octaves are those notes?
Noah Daub-Evans Hey there! Not sure exactly, but you'll know when you find it. All the heads are medium-tight. The toms are all in order in the same octave. The snare is higher than the rack tom and the reso head is a fifth above the batter. Im not sure about the bass drum. I did this on my set with a few tweaks (cuz I have different size drums) and it sounds awesome!
bonham's first pro kit was 1967-68 green sparkle kit in 4 piece configuration..but in STANDARD sizes !! 13- 16-22 !! and his good friend bev bevan of E L O said it still sounded freakishly loud !! hence ludwig's 3 ply maple kits from those days were the loudest on the market at that time ! that whole tuning process works for those standard sizes as well !1..i tried it with great success and sound quality !!, god bless jeff on of course bonzo for those little secret jems of info !
Best sounding kit ever. I can't get my 14x24 kick to sound good like this though, any tips? I'm using an Emperor batter, but I don't have the felt muffling and it sound too ringy/marching bass drum. Wondering if a coated Powerstroke III would do just as well, and not having to use felt since it has a ring?
I always come back here to hear those drums and that guy was great ! nobody has better sounding drums to date than Bonham Hes' like the ed van halen of guitar with tone.If my drums sounded that good i would never leave the kit period lol.
Hi, I got the readings using a TuneBot and external speakers. They are in Hz and corresponding note as follows:
starting at 3:45
Using drumstick
--------------
HT: 129-130Hz /3C
MT: 97Hz /2G
LT: 75Hz /2D
BD: 89-90Hz / 2F
Using Mallet
--------------
SD: 200-201Hz / 3G
HT: Beater 125Hz Reso 126Hz / 2B
BD: Reso: 80Hz/ 2E
MT: Beater 96Hz 2G/ Reso 89Hz 2F
LT: Beater 70Hz 2C#/ Reso 74Hz 2D
John Bonham el mejor baterista de todos los tiempos, este reportaje nos hace sentir como si el mismisimo Bonham estuviera describiendo su bateria, su afinación, su arte, su alma, gracias led zeppelin...
@Slammintone i've never actually seen the rest of this..but it makes sense. that 18" just looks soo much different..
Notice the absence of a hole in the front head or the bottoms off the drums.
Jeff is probably nervous for the camera. I know I would be. Regardless he did a great job and is a gold mine of Bonham information for diehard Zeppelin geeks like me.
Someone mentioned John Bonham's snare drum - it was aluminum. Ludwig had their own name for it - they called it "Ludalloy" - it's aluminum, but the question Ludwig will not reveal is what "grade" aluminum is was...or it seems that they can't find anyone to verify the grade of aluminum.
(Toms- Coated Emperor Top/Coated Ambassador Bottom)(Bass-Emperor Coated Beater-side/Medium Weight Reso)(Snare-Coated Emperor Batter/Ambassador or Diplomat Bottom)
Bass tuned way up. Tom bottom heads akin to a snare drum. Tom top heads up fairly high. Snare bottom up high (like timbale). Snare top up fairly high. Snare wires just grabbing.
@Limedrum Use the felt. Why not? If you want that sound, Jeff's telling you how to get it. Powerstroke III is a different sound. Felt on both sides for the Bonham sound. For a different sound like on a 14x20 I do like the Powerstroke III with no pillow or towel or anything inside, but a felt on the resonant side
damn, its crazy how close these sound to bonham's kit.
my god, that snare is godlike
John Bonham = Best Damn Drummer EVER!!!!
here's some more info: I put a vintage logo front head on my kick. It's a weathermaster "heavy." I've tried a coated emperor batter side with it and its ringy as all hell. I've yet to try the felt strips but my kick is 22" and trying to achieve the sound of a 26" is never gonna be perfect.
does anyone know if bonham used a coated or clear ambassador on the resonant side of his snare? also, does anyone know how much tighter the resonant side of the snare should be than the batter side to get that sound?
great vid
Awesome!
@DrumPotato he probably means he used the ludaloy shell supraphonics, as opposed to the chrome covered brass shell.
Where is the second part of the video... when they tune the amber vistalite :)
Jon_Sn@il They just tune themselves.
I have them. :)
Does anyone know what brand and type (meaning smooth white, ambassador coated, emperor coated, etc.) of bass drum reso head I should use to get that sound? And if you know, where to get it?
Does anyone know what resonant head I should use for my bass drum to get that sound, and if so, where to get it?
just percfect.
with the serial model for the supraphonic is LM402, LM standing for Ludwig Metal. the black beauty, a brass shell, is LB417, LB standing for Ludwig Brass. This is probably what he means. ( I could actually be wrong but I'm pretty sure I heard that that's what lm and lb stands for in some forum. And if you think about it, it kinda makes sense, lm for ludalloy, lb for brass)
thanks
@ericsuppes In another video Jeff Ocheltree says one of the floor toms had cigarette burns and other issues when he got the kit so it may have been recovered when he cleaned up and restored the kit to it's current playable condition. Or, it could still be the original wrap but the wrap was from a different batch for the 18" than the rest of the kit and didn't fade as badly. I mean, Bonham got three different Green Sparkle Ludwig kits in 1970 alone, who know's how many he got in 1971?
exactly..it would be also like having ringo's black oyster and recording with it today !!no one would dream of it ! just too valuable!! these drums deserve retirement !lol !cheers !
cool, thanks.
Dude shreds
@harisk1 so why nowadays i hear something like 20 ply snares or 10 ply bassdrums?
AWESOME
does anyone know if john bonham miked his snare from the bottom, top or both?
@mariorossipuzza: You're most welcome!
BRAVO.
Anyone know what pitches to aim for on these drums? Some say "just get it to resonate best", but I think the pros are tuning to pitches....the drums should be tonal IMO. I am running a similar kit and want to dial it in just like this one.
Pearl Reference Redline Acoustic Drums
13x9
16x16
18x16
24x18
14x6.5 snare
Coated Emperor - Batter
Coated Ambassador - Resonant
The 18 sounds good at F and the 13/16 are good at A....but the 18 sounds out of place to me.
@DrumPotato no some snares have chrome on the outside of brass snares
I have the John Bonham book and the person who has his '69 maple kit opened up the bass drum and saw shredded newspaper in it.
The drummer is awesome:)
i tried to listen carefully to the tuning of the drum used in the video, to my ears sound the tuning sound like this (i used headphones) :
- the snare batter and reso seem pitched at the same note
- the tom reso seem a little higher (just as half semitone) from the batter
- the first floor tom reso a third minor over the batter
- the big floor tom reso a tone over the batter
i can't exactly hear the notes / intervals of the bass drum
he's using the smoothe white one here , and you can get it just about any music shop that sells drums ! but you can still get a great sound with an emperor coated or ambassador...you can even try a nice fibrskyn coated or a even a renaissance !!
@eminem0710 ... pretty sure they didn't make coated snare side heads back then (I don't know of anyone that makes a coated snare side now)
snare side head is for response of the snare wires, and not meant to be struck ... that's why it's so thin. a coating would defeat the purpose.
Anyone have a link to the section where jeff talks about the visalite kit?
Killer sound.
Demo should have played time on the kit...we have heard time 90% of the time with the occasional fill from a Zep tune...he should have demo'd some classic Bonham grooves and fills to educate how this kit was tuned and if we are honest, how we can get that sound in our own playing. Then there's the rub...tune a kit like this and be compared to Bonzo's sound...might or might not work...if you were in a Zep cover band, 100% yes, clone as best you can. If not, hmmm, could be a negative. For me it is just the thrill to get that sound and feel that vibe when playing. Not sure I would make it my own tho.
wierd thing is..He says how high the tom is tuned but it sounds nice and loose
Can no longer find the video of Jeff showing how to tune the drums on the vitsalite kit....... faccckkkkkkkkk.
I would say it does fit into this specific kit since he would have no reason to lie about the previous owner. Have in mind that this color option green sparkle was not a big seller due to the nasty habit of these fading into some yellowish/pissy green when exposed to light and not just direct sunlight.
Pie-stee
Bon-um
kicked-ass!
This is true, a close mic to the snare always kills its reverb. But if you're into the Ringo - Beatles sound then go for it!
Great !
Dotted CS clear Remo used as well by Bonzo.
I wonder which polar pattern was used for room mics
I've seen other videos say he used a 2-ply Ambassador batter head which I didn't think even existed but they did and do now.. as "Ambassador Vintage" which is a 7.5mil / 3mil combo instead of just a 7mil single ply Ambassdor or double ply 7mil Emperors. Vintage Emperors are two plies of 7.5 mil. So if Bonham used Emperors, then that what he used.
However, I do still use close mics because to be honest my set doesn't sound nearly this good and I need to get a little more body out of the drums. The actual amount of level I use out of the close mics is minimal though and I have never heard a close mic on a snare that sounded good. Ever.
Plating bass drum wrong, Bonzo always pulled away to get that massive sound.
Yeah, they're burying the head
+Ash Hudson po00
why the fuck does is matter?
Gormless Git what made Bonham great is the details
What made Bonham great was his own fuckin playing style dude. Trying to mimic it perfectly like pulling the bass head away is just a bit over the top lol. A big part of playing the drums as well i feel like is incorporating your own style of playing.
Thanks....I have spent a lot of time and I am close, but the sound and feel still is not right to me. I will try your method.
I think what Jeff meant was Bonham didn't fancy the Black Beauty as much as the Supraphonic. I get what he means as I have both snares. The Black Beauty has a warmer sound but the Supraphonic cuts through better and Bonham liked to 'cut through' with his sound; the tighter the drum the better the 'cut'. And yes, he did use the ludalloy snare... can anyone debate this?
Does anyone know the patten from 8:41 to 8:45
@DrumPotato
He means chrome plated steel, not chrome plated brass! although some Ludwig Supraphonic snare drums were "mystery alloy" maybe aluminum, maybe? ...tin who knows...most likely steel steel is the most common now.
since it's got the ludwig logo i'm guessing it's a smooth white ludwig weathermaster. you should get almost the same sound out of a coated or smooth ambassador.
I am led to believe that "LM" was for the later models of the 402 snare and not for the classic vintage years I.e. 70's and 80's where it was referred to ad just the 402 supra phonic.
jeff says 'he always used a metal ludwig supraphonic 402 snare drum, always metal, never chrome over brass.' i think this is either incorrect or maybe just a poor way of wording it, the 402 was chrome over brass earlier on and then was switched to the ludalloy aluminum that the acrolites are made of. out of the two shell materials, i would think brass would be the one you refer to as 'metal' over the aluminum. anyone have some insight on this?
I really wish he'd have done a Vistalite explanation too
man I'm lost, thats way to much info, i guess that comes from years of playing!!how in the world can they play the same way on every song? i know theres a lot of repeating but geez that must be hard!
@mariorossipuzza: BTW, I don't believe that newer drums sound better or worse than vintage ones, only different. It's just a matter of taste. Personally I like both.