Why the 1:5 Flour-Water Ratio of Tangzhong for Bread Baking is a Bad Idea: It's Just Too Much...
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- čas přidán 11. 06. 2024
- In this video, we're going to be covering the popular Tangzhong method for bread baking, and making a solid case, based on science, for why you should avoid it and use a method like Yudane instead. To avoid any confusion though, first, we'll show you that Tangzhong is just another name for Yudane, there's absolutely no difference between the two, and then we're going to show you a couple of reasons why the "Tangzhong" method, as it's commonly shared with a 1:5 flour to water ratio, has serious limitations with no obvious extra benefits as compared to Yudane with 1:1 flour to water ratio. We'll also be covering how to make tangzhong/yudane properly, how to convert a recipe to tangzhong/yudane, how much tangzhong/yudane you should use, and whether we need more water to get a soft and fluffy bread loaf after converting a recipe to Tangzhong/Yudane recipe.
We try to address frequently asked questions (FAQ) about tangzhong/yudane that most beginners or even experts in bread baking will wonder about before adding it to their bread dough. With all the information floating around online, it can seem to be very confusing and complex, but in reality, the underlying principles are relatively straightforward. We pored over many research papers on the history, origins and applications of tangzhong/yudane, and the science behind starch gelatinization. For these purposes, we've looked at papers in Japanese, Chinese, and English, to get a really good view of the research.
There is a lot of misinformation spread around on this bread-improving technique, which is part of what we aim to tackle. The real key to the method whether it's called tangzhong, yudane, or water roux, is starch gelatinization, which we cover in depth in this video to show you how different methods ultimately lead to this same goal. Many methods online do not seem to get the full benefits out of using gelatinized starch in bread to get softer and tastier bread.
This video is going to be a deep dive into the science and research of gelatinized starch in bread. By the end of the video, you'll come away with plenty of information on tangzhong/yudane, perfect for making the soft and delicious bread of your dreams.
Watch the video for more!
with @SeraphineLisheChannel
#tangzhong #yudane #starchgelatinization
References:
1. 湯種添加量與熟成條件對麵包品質之影響 柯玉文
2. 湯種中の加熱糊化澱粉が生地の製パン性に与える影響
Effect of Gelatinized Wheat Starch on Bread-making Qualities of Yudane Dough (2015)
Daiju Yamada et al
3. 柴田太，加藤博信，パン類の製造法，特許第3167692 号 (2001. 3. 9).
4. 深沢忠史，貝沼謙，パン類生地及びパン類の製造方法，特許第3624894 号(2002. 2. 21).
5. 杉山幹雄，貝沼謙，安田茂樹，湯捏種および湯捏種を用いたパン類の製造方法，特開2004-000123号(2004. 1. 8).
6. Hydrothermal Modifications of Granular Starch, with Retention of the Granular Structure: A Review Heidi Jacobs and Jan A. Delcour (1998)
7. New insights into gelatinization mechanisms of cereal endosperm starches
Shujun Wang, Chen Chao, Fengjuan Xiang, Xiu Zhang, Shuo Wang & Les Copeland
8. Reexamination of Phase Transformations in the Starch-Water System
Stanisław L. Randzio, Iwona Flis-Kabulska, and Jean-Pierre E. Grolier
9. ゆきちから湯種パンの製パン性＊ 島津 裕子＊＊
10. Effect of Moisture Content on the Melting of Wheat Starch J.K. Jang and Y.R. Pyun
11. Wheat Flour, 2nd edition Sean Finnie and William A. Atwell (2016) AACC International, Inc.
12. Effect of Water Content on the Gelatinization of Wheat Starch By A X. Eliasson, Lund (Sweden)
13. Dome, Karina, et al. "Changes in the crystallinity degree of starch having different types of crystal structure after mechanical pretreatment." Polymers 12.3 (2020): 641.
14. 「麵」目一新～探討「湯種麵糰技術」應用在「傳統饅頭」之品質研究
蔡佳璇; 鄭如喻; 王倍瑜; 歐榆暄
15. The effect of gelatinized starch on baking bread. Food Sci.
Technol. Res., 11, 194-201 (2005). Naito, S. et al
Chapters
0:00 why the "Tangzhong method as you know it" sucks
0:36 Explanation
0:44 Yudane and Tangzhong are simply the same characters pronounced differently
1:21 No restriction in ratio in its country of origin
1:32 Japanese Research Paper
2:58 A Master's Thesis
3:43 The 1:5 ratio is the issue here
3:57 It's a bad idea
5:01 it's not enough Tangzhong
5:20 Push to 20%
5:30 Super High Hydration Problem
5:57 What is the rationale for the 1:5 ratio?
8:21 Starch Gelatinization
10:40 The Science behind Starch Gelatinization
14:26 Conclusion
14:47 How to make Tangzhong/Yudane
16:02 How to convert any recipe to Tangzhong/Yudane
17:28 Do we need to add extra water after this conversion? - Jak na to + styl
I’m reminded that bread making is first a science before an art. Thanks very enlightening 😊
This is brilliant. You cut right through all of the misconceptions at the very beginning. As a learning baker I happen to be very interested in the spectrum of methods used, and find that a lot of words are bandied about without people understanding the reason for a certain method or choice. Thank you for the excellent information!
Wow this is one of the most in-depth videos/blog posts on tangzhong/yudane I’ve seen. Subscribed!
Thanks!
That settles that! I couldn’t imagine a better presentation or argument in support of your opinion.
I don’t believe I’ve ever received so much pertinent information on a subject of my interest ,from a single source, in such a short time,……ever! Thanks so much.
Thank you so much for your kind words!
Have to point out that 1 cup water per 1 cup flour is a 2:1 ratio by weight. Maybe the original Japanese yudane was measured by volume not weight, and this created confusion later in transfer and translation. "Mix equal amounts of water and flour" is ambiguously 1:1 or 2:1.
This video is amazing and exactly what I needed. I was having issues with the 1 to 5 ratio, plus the extra step of cooking the roux. I'm looking forward to using Yudane instead, as it looks easier and most consistent.
But don’t forget. That first thing is also a Yudane… just wetter :)
True... I lost my patience cooking the roux... With added worries that I would burn the roux in the bottom.
So glad I caught this video! I was ready to finally try this the next time I made bread and your advice is much appreciated.
Glad it was helpful!
Amazing. I thought I was going mad. Thank you soooooo much. I can't wait for the follow-up video. Great job.
This is one of the best researched and informative CZcams videos I have ever come across. Clear, precise, specific, to the point, AND helpful. ... Whoooaaaaa ... ;-)
Thank you for your kind comment 🙏
A very enlightening and laborious work. Thanks
Your videos are so well done!!
great video!! I love how you cite research papers for the points you make
Thank you for this detailed explanation! I really learned a lot.
Glad to be of help, thank you too🙏
Holy cow. You’re very thorough. Thank you for the awesome and informative presentation.
My pleasure!
The video that keeps on giving!!! Mind blowing content, then got to read the comments and it goes and on and on... love it. Thank you!!! Subscribed ;)
So nice of you! Thank you!
Thank you so much to this video 👏I love making bread and this is bring me to science of bread making. Keep to make video like this because I love bread science. Good job 👍
Very well explained video!
Thanks for sharing your knowledge about Tangzhong and Yudane method in bread making with us.
Super helpful insight in these 2 bread techniques. Yudane is the key for a great results at the end ⭐️
Wow, thank you so much for this research. I love it. So helpful.
Thanks... Totally informative
Thank you so much! Excellent explanation! ❤
An amazing video!
Very helpful and informative. I can't imagine the amount of work put into this video!
Thanks a lot ♥
🙏 thank you too
Instant sub, great content. As an avid baker and a doctor this video felt custom made for me.
I just love watching your videos ❤️ also learning about bread 🍞🙂
Amazing! You left, almost no stone unturned. Good job👍 I might try making it again😃
Rly interesting, thanks!
Wow thanks for the explainer and for sharing much data : )
Wow... that was amazing information... Thank you..
Thank you too🙏
Wonderfull content. With your videos i Discovery myself doing yudane wrong, without the gelatin aspect. Thank you very much!
Your video is amazing 😮 I was studying about this topic for whole flour and finded your video, I'm really surprised
Glad it was helpful! For whole-wheat flour, you may find this video interesting: czcams.com/video/Pf5HSzBK6zo/video.html
Amazing video again. As a Taiwanese, i never noticed that there are some people doing baking research so well.
The thesis of 柯玉文 「湯種添加量與熟成條件對麵包品質之影響」 actually predated many great Japanese papers on Yudane, unfortunately not much credit has been given to it, I hope this video of mine places the honor where it should be.
Dang I learned a lot from this method from both videos. Thanks. I have been making my brioche breads with the tax, method but now I definitely see my mistakes in using it. Will definitely work on improving my recipes after this!
I have been looking for more info on tangzhong without doing the research myself 😂 thank you for doing the research! I want to develop bread recipe with longer shelf life without using any additives. Looking forward to more video on this subject!
No problem!! We are working on a new video, hope to release it soon :)
Guao me quito el sombrero ante usted joven dama la densidad de lo expuesto en tan corto tiempo me dejó la mente en un bucle. Tendré que revisar el vídeo algunas veces más para sintetizar la info que me sea útil en la Praxis. Gracias muy buen trabajo...
¡Muchas gracias por tu comentario!
I've been making your tangzhong + poolish recipe fairly frequently for a few weeks now, and I didn't think it could be improved much at all. I'll have to try adjusting the ratio of the tangzhong to see if it's even better!
It's huge, that's why we make this video. More videos to come on 20% Tangzhong/Yudane, we are currently experimenting on lean dough with tangzhong/Yudane 😀 very happy with the results, and healthier too.
This is absolutely amazing information! It changes everything that I was told about this process, and makes it simpler to adjust my existing formulas. I would be curious if either of these methods would work with sourdough bread, as there is such a long fermentation period.
Thanks! FYI, two of our latest videos address using tangzhong in sourdough recipes.
Definitely a lot of talking but very informative😊. And I really appreciate. And that answers the question I have about the 1:5 ratio. Thank you😘 you are so bright❣️
Very useful info,they you very much have a nice new year
Thanks, you too!
Amazing scientific explanation!! Will keep watching this tangzhong investigation 😃
Thanks 🙏
This is the clearest video about thangzong and yudane I've ever seen
You are so GEEKILICOUS! I deeply appreciate your videos Wonder information and great presentation of it. You're a jewel...a GEEKILICOUS jewel.
Thank you! An absolutely great job on research & presentation. I appreciate you explaining the science. 👍👏👏👏
You've got me convinced to try 1:2 Yudane method for my breads. I've been making Kristina Cho's milk bread using 1:5 Tangzhong method per her recipe. I'm curious to see the difference in the results, including shelf life ,when I switch to 1:2 Yudane.
BTW, I've just become a new subscriber to your channel. Looking forward to watching more of your videos and trying some of your more recent recipes.
Thanks! There shouldn't be any difference between the two :)
I originally found your channel because I was making Bika Ambon. But your knowledge on bread making has now taken me to many more videos beyond Bika Ambon. (The Bika ambon was delicious also).
Yummy yummy host thank you
You are not only a baker. But also a researcher ✨
I think you should make research paper about your experiments.
Luckily I never heard of the 1:5 ratio. I have only used Yudane. Your video is well done and interesting. Thank you.
I liked to use more water because it helps me to mix the Yudane with the rest of the water instead of adding it to the solid dough. It's better mixed this way. But that was because I thought 10% was the maximum amount of flour in the Yudane. Now I have to rethink everything... Thank you.
There absolutely is an ease-of-use aspect to going with the higher water ratio and slightly different technique of a tangzhong over a yudane. In the past, I have used the 1:5 ratio, mixed my flour and water with a whisk, and then heated it in the microwave for about a minute (or until it reaches the desired temperature). At that point, it's gelatinized and very easy to handle. I'll cool it down and then add it to the rest of my dough. Makes my workflow very easy. Of course, that really only works up to about 10% of flour as explained in the video.
I'll have to experiment with what increasing the amount of gelatinized starch beyond those 10% does to my recipes. One recipe that I am trying to perfect uses bread flour, whole wheat, and rye in roughly equal parts, give or take. I am still trying to understand which type flour should go into the tangzhong. Last time that I baked this bread, I used the whole wheat flour for the tangzhong. The results were definitely along the lines of what I expected. But I guess I can experiment with alternatives and see what effect it has on the baked bread.
@@gutschke I've tried with 20% and for me the gluten network is not strong enough and it end up broken and like a small rock. What makes a bread fluffy for me is the egg not the cooked flour. Apart from that I don't like the smell and flavor the yudane/tangzhong give to the bread. I've made one without eggs to be sure it's not the problem and yes, what I don't like is the cooked flour. For me I prefer without any at all. But I understand the benefits and it's a good idea for sure.
Good luck and enjoy your experiments.
P.S. By the way I use mainly egg whites. I think yolks add more eggy flavour.
@@lucym8562yeah I agree with you about the smell of tangzhong. It smells like homemade glue to me. That’s why I make tangzhong at 6% flour, 1:5 ratio, and cook it in the pot. The soft gel consistency is so much easier to use. Tangzhong makes the dough knead and shape like a low hydration dough and yet it is a high hydration dough. Yudane at 1:1-2 ratio using the hot water method results in a hard mixture and smells like glue too. Will need to let it rest for a long period to make it softer before use. That is why I prefer tangzhong for the ease of use and quicker process.
Nice research 😍, thank you. Please talk about pros & cons on how much tangzhong used. Eg. 20% vs 30% vs 40% 🙏🏻👍🏻🙏🏻
Thank you for the suggestion 🙏
Wow keren banget videonya!! Terima kasih info nya
Terimakasih 🙏
It would be cool to see a video that combines tangzhong/yudane and wholewheat bread! Would be interesting to see if you can reduce the density by the tangzhong/yudane method.
Thanks for the suggestion 🙏
A search for "Lithuanian scalded rye" bread will point you in the right direction. It's a method that has existed in Europe as well for a long time.
I saw an article where the chef recommended the tangzhong method for cinnamon rolls and conchas but the yudane method for sliced bread because (according to him) the yudane method produced tighter bread crumb while the tangzhong mwthod produced lighter, fluffier results. Now I'm curious of a side by side.
so good
I found this out experimenting with oat flour in my wheat breads-I made a 1:4 tang zhong of pure oats, which comprised 25% of my flour, resulting in 100% hydration. Needed more bran or higher gluten or something. My height also suffered, but I would sooner blame my dough strength than the tang zhong. Great flavor, though.
Sounds great! Oats do have lots of starch.
Thanks!
Thank you very much 🙏
The videos are really good. Thanks for this one. It was very helpful. Any difference from water to milk.
About 87% of milk is water, and about less than 4% is fat. Fat interferes with gluten development. When you take a portion of flour out for Tangzhong/Yudane, you are left with less protein in the final dough for gluten development, that is the major part to consider. As for the Tangzhong/Yudane, the same amount of milk for the same amount of water will make a little less gelatinized starch because fat also interferes with starch gelatinization but due to its small percentage in the milk, overall we still end up with roughly the same Tangzhong/Yudane.
@@NovitaListyaniwow.. thankbyou so much for answering my question. You are amazing. Thank you again.
I've taken to using Yudane in my breadmaker bread. I'm not sure if it makes a huge difference, but I'm also using milk as my main liquid so the boiling water in the Yudane counteracts the fridge-cold of the milk and that's handy.
I tried 1:1 and it was a nightmare. I;m now using 1:2, which is far better in terms of mixing the flour.
I thought the whole point of starch was to increase hydration without creating a high hydration dough so the 1:5 tangzhong ratio makes complete sense.
Best video talking about Tangzhong/Yudane in youtube.
Thanks!
Wow this is crazy 🤯 respect for a fellow food scientist 🔥
thanks it works 1:2 ratio,
but sometimes i use 1:5 for some different bread
great video, very useful
1:2 tanzhong, do I still prepare it using pan with fire?
Nope, that's not needed, just prepare it the way Yudane is typically made. Use a small wooden rolling pin or a heat resistant silicon spatula, mix boiling water and flour, it takes just a few minutes and it's done.
Thanks for the fast reply. Will try prepare 1:2 and use it same day and kept one overnight.
Wow, that's an in-depth video. Thanks for the effort.
Can I use starch gelatinisation for crusty rolls? I've seen people say Yudane/Tangzhong methods are generally for softer breads but I am wondering about the crusty rolls and crusty baguettes I can get at my supermarket - they have a very small, tight crumb but the crust is very crusty. I know french style baguettes are often more open crumbed and chewier but the baguettes in my supermarket have a really nice soft, fluffy interior like it was made with Yudane or Tangzhong method whilst the crust is very crusty and also chewy. So far I've only done soft tangzhong rolls enriched with egg, milk and butter which obviously makes the crust soft. I'm thinking I can try using Yudane but not use eggs/milk/butter and maybe achieve that crusty/crispy crust whilst maintaining a fluffy interior. What do you think? Or should I be keeping one or two of the enrichments? Which enrichment contributes the most in terms of resulting in a soft crust? Egg? Milk or butter/oil?
You may want to watch our latest videos about baguettes and pizzas with Yudane/Tangzhong. The relevant information there may be of interest to you.
Just watched your other videos on youdane/tangzhong and sourdough, great in-depth explanation with scientific references. One question though, can the water used in 1:5 tangzhang subtract from the main dough mixture so the hydration in final dough maintain at desired level?
We don't recommend using Tangzhong 1:5 anymore, watch this video for why, if you still want to use it, yes, there's no need to add any additional water, just subtract the amount from the final dough.
awesome vid ... bread science..!
Thanks 🙏
I love these kinds of videos 🥰🥰 That would happen if I added vital gluten to the dough to compensate the loss of gluten from the tangzhong/yudane?
Thankyou!
Great idea!! In the right proportion, vital gluten will be good for the dough.
Ok, so I will be calling it "Tang-Dane" or "Yu-Zhong" from now on... and will use a 20-30% ratio. Great info, as always... thank you!
Perfect! You have just coined two terms for the new era :)
Thank you for the information, so glad i found your videos. I've been struggling to succeed with the Tangzhong method since I've been following the common 1:5 ratio. I'm definitely going to try a lower ratio now that I know im not breaking the "rules". Another question I've had is how quickly can either of the Tangzhong or Yudane be used once prepared. I keep seeing Tangzhong can be used immediately once cooled, but Yudane needs at least 4 to 8 hours if not more until it can be used.... Your videos have made me question everything I thought I learned! Thanks again
Thank you for your comment. To answer your question: first of all, you can call it tangzhong, yudane, water roux, or anything, they are the same thing under different name. Without any sound scientific facts to back up, sometimes people make up all the variations to suit whatever they think it is. Having said that, once you've made your tangzhong/yudane it's best to use it after you give it a rest overnight. There are many physicochemical reactions going on when you make a tangzhong/yudane, one of the most important things are starch gelatinization. Given them an overnight rest in the fridge at 4°C, a temperature known to accelerate retrogradation, this will bring the most of their benefits out for our bread, it makes the bread sweeter with natural umami that many people like. In many of our videos we discuss this and many other facts about tangzhong/yudane, you may want to watch them.
@@NovitaListyani Thank you so much for the clarification--definitely going to continue to binge your other videos :)
This was totally awesome!!! It makes me wonder if this technique can be used with different protein levels, like APF and different flours, such as Spelt or khorasan. For different crusts, crumbs and flavor profiles....Yummy
This method is not limited to bread flour only
Thanks Novita for such punctual delivery of the subject .. have you tried whole wheat in so , and what are the outcome, if so ?
We did some experiments with whole wheat before, will make a video of it someday, thank you for your kind comment 🙏
I am curious to see the results that you'll come up with. I have a bread that uses bread flour, whole wheat, and rye. And I'd love to hear your take on which of these should be used for the yudane.
Thank you for your well researched and very informative video on tanzhong/yudane. Is it ok to use milk to replace water in the bread/tanzhong/yudane recipes? How does that affect the outcome?
Yes, absolutely. We have answered a similar question before: About 87% of milk is water, and about less than 4% is fat. Fat interferes with gluten development. When you take a portion of flour out for Tangzhong/Yudane, you are left with less protein in the final dough for gluten development, that is the major part to consider. As for the Tangzhong/Yudane, the same amount of milk for the same amount of water will make a little less gelatinized starch because fat also interferes with starch gelatinization but due to its small percentage in the milk, overall we still end up with roughly the same Tangzhong/Yudane.
@@NovitaListyani When you make shokupan, do you use only milk or a combination?
Your review on the use of Tangzhong/Yudane is perfect and very scientific, I learned a lot from you. Still I have a question, if the main purpose of using both ingredients is to add STARCH to the duff, is it possible to use corn starch instead and if so what is the best percent of corn starch to use? Thank you for the video and another thank for answering my question.
Yes, absolutely, as for the specific details, it's rather different from wheat starch, and a little bit too complex to put into a comment, we will try to do a video someday.
Selamat sore kak , terimakasih sharing nya sukses selalu
Terima Kasih juga
bisa jelaskan sedikit tentang tangzhong ke dalam bahasa indonesia?
@@AQILABDUL51 Di video ini dan video tentatng Tangzhong/Yudane sebelumnya ( czcams.com/video/a2Bhe16kvCI/video.html ) ada subtitle bahasa Indonesianya, tinggal dinyalain saja.
Hi, I went through your older video "Asian-style Bread Recipe Using Tangzhong", which you presented methods and ingredients of making Tangzhong. Your presentation here is completely different than the older video. Does it mean the older video should be superseded? Also, if I want to add sugar, milk powder, butter and egg to the dough, can I use same percentage as you mentioned in the older video? Thank you!
If you have a working recipe with ingredients such as sugar, milk powder, butter or egg just use them as is, just remember to deduct the amount of flour and water used for Tangzhong from the final dough.
As of the release of this video, we have stopped using Tangzhong 1:5. That being said, our older video recipes using the 1:5 ratio are still perfectly fine, as they still make delicious and longer lasting breads, so that's why we've left the videos be.
Excellent video. Is this the same concept as 烫面 method found in chinese cooking?
They are similar but not exactly the same. 烫面, for example when used in 烫面蒸饺, is more focused on the denaturation of protein, so its objective is to make the dough softer, while the 汤种 method of bread making is more about the gelatinization of starch. In practice, when making 饺子 you see the ratio of flour to water goes from 2:1 to 1:1 to moderate the skin texture of the 饺子, while in 汤种, the flour to water ratio goes from 1:1 to 1:5 (this latter one is kind of a bad idea as we mentioned in this video), the objective is to make a natural sweet, soft and high water content bread that can stay fresh and last longer. I hope this explanation helps.
This is an amazing video. In Chad Robertson's Bread Book. He uses around 10% of the flour weight for what he calls a scald. He mixes the flour and water in a pan then heats the paste until at least 72 degrees (which happens to be the temp you showed as 100% generalization). He uses a 1:2 ratio for most flours but 1:3 for rye. Have found that different grains require a different ratio? Would that change for fresh milled flour?
For gelatinization to happen the starch has to be in excess water, as explained in the video. Different flours contain different amounts of starch, protein etc., also, different constituents in the flour absorb water differently, so, it makes sense to adjust the flour to water ratio differently. czcams.com/video/hc8AiEc63bM/video.html
No pensaría esta excelente presentación viene con falla alguna. Argumentos convincentes basados en trabajos de investigación exhaustivos de laboratorio meticulosamente ejecutados dan luz verde a la sugerencia Ud. pone sobre la mesa: Emplear una proporción harina:agua para el tangzhong como ha sugerido en lugar del popular y sustancialmente diluido pero no cuestionado por panaderos artesanales caseros. Insuperable presentación. ¡Bravo!
I've been using 5% flour from total flour this whole time. Going to step up my roux game by increasing it to 10% minimum, thanks! Also is there any difference in roux if using milk instead of plain water?
We answered a question about this before: About 87% of milk is water, and about less than 4% is fat. Fat interferes with gluten development. When you take a portion of flour out for Tangzhong/Yudane, you are left with less protein in the final dough for gluten development, that is the major part to consider. As for the Tangzhong/Yudane, the same amount of milk for the same amount of water will make a little less gelatinized starch because fat also interferes with starch gelatinization but due to its small percentage in the milk, overall we still end up with roughly the same Tangzhong/Yudane.
hi sister, can i use white glutten for thangzhong? i mean to subtitute bread flour for making thanzong miss?
Eating is an easy task. But it's a lot of work to make. I still focus on eating.
Haha, but bread baking can be fun too :)
haha allow me to join u! 😆😆😆
😂
Thanks you. Have a good weekend from Japan!
I thought you are Japanese.. ?🤔
Thank you for the excellent explanation! qq. how do I calculate baker's percentage when I want to add egg and butter into the recipe? will that affect liquid percentage?
The water content of eggs and butter are around 76% and 17% respectively, in the original recipe these numbers would have been compensated for, I assume. If you change your recipe to Tangzhong/Yudane just make sure to deduct the amount of flour and water that you plan to use for the Tangzhong/Yudane from the final dough.
@@NovitaListyani got it. you are so helpful. Thanks again!
how do feel about using sweet rice instead of wheat? if the gluten is getting denatured anyway...
This video is so enlightening! lately I have been using yudane 1:1 ratio (because I didn't know any better). I have had good result. The bread stays soft for days and days. Now I know it's not confined to 1:1 ratio. I'll try 1:2 next time. Btw, what is the correct water temperature to prepare yudane? I've always bring it to rolling boil 100 C, it seems like I'm overdoing it! Thank you for your super informative video on tangzhong and yudane. Now I know they are the same thing! :)
Don't worry, you're definitely not overdoing it! The flour needs to be heated to a certain point to achieve starch gelatinization, so we normally try to ensure that the water is as hot as it can get. The way we usually do it now is by first measuring the boiling water into a mixing bowl, then adding the flour, mixing it all together with a wooden rolling pin. Generally, this is what works for us :)
@@NovitaListyani I forgot to ask you if you would recommend to allow at least 4 hours before using yudane? Thank you!!!
Yes, overnight is better, especially if the flour used for the Tangzhong or Yudane is more than 10%.
Hi! I just encountered you Sourdough Shokupan video and got caught by the explanation of Yudane/Tangzhong haha I wanted to ask why you don't use milk for making the roux used on the Shokupan. Thanks in advance :D
Have you experimented with ascorbic acid as a dough improver? Does it do the same thing as Tangzhong/Yudane in terms of results?
Scientific research on the effect of Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C) on bread is quite extensive, I don't see the need for us to do it personally, also it's considered to be additive that has been proven to bring positive effects on the bread and human health, but we are at the moment moving away from additive such as this, and prefer natural ones, like the natural lactic acid and acetic acid from Sourdough.
Would you be able to use this starter right away? Or do you have to let it chill for a few hours/overnight in the fridge?
If the percentage of flour you use for tangzhong/yudane is above 10%, leaving it overnight will make it sweeter with a stronger natural aroma, this has to do with the retrogradation process that it went through as explained in the video. In our previous video, we tried many samples with the percentages of flour used by all of them being less than 10%, after an overnight rest in the fridge, they didn't show much difference in taste, aroma or flavor.
@@NovitaListyani Ah I see. Thank you!
hi sister, your video is very interesting. Can you explain me how is the different between them two especially for pre baking process preparation. I mean i got information that stated yudane must refrigerated at least minimum 8 hours. What about the tanzhong? Can i cut off the preparing time? :D And do you have any idea to cut it off sister? thanks alot
You may want to watch this: czcams.com/video/DjQ7EtvzK_w/video.html
Am planning to put up a bakery. I needs more info.about baking. What your vlog miss here in Barcelona Spain.
Can we apply this for bao dough?
Keren kak riset literaturnya, jarang jarang ada yg begini, mana literasinya native jepang lagi.
Oiya, adakah cara lain untuk memaksimalkan mengembangnya dough selain dengan menambahkan air 2% untuk setiap kenaikan 10% tangzhong?
Pada intinya ada dua hal yg harus diperhatikan pada Tangzhong/Yudane: denaturasi protein (protein denaturation) dan gelatinasi Pati (starch gelatinization). Selain hal positif, metode ini membawa beberapa hal negatif. Yang pertama, denaturasi protein membuat adonan menjadi lebih lemah, solusinya ya sebaiknya pakai tepung protein tinggi atau beri protein tambahan, yang kedua gelatinasi Pati membuat adonan menjadi lebih keruh, waktu ulen menjadi lebih lama, dan sering memberi tanda seakan sudah selesai diuleni padahal jaringan gluten masih belum terbentuk, terus begitu selesai terbentuk hancurnya cepat (ini terutama di mixer), solusinya ya waktu ulen diperhatikan dengan saksama, lakukan windowpane test. Kedua hal tersebut kalau diperhatikan dalam pembuatan roti, hasilnya pasti bagus. Tentang penambahan air, yang menentukan adalah roti apa yang kita buat. Sebagai contoh, hidrasi adonan 100% di adonan yang pakai Tangzhong 20 bisa terasa seperti adonan biasa dengan hidrasi 80% (dari paper Jepang), ini menarik untuk dipakai pada misalnya buat pizza rumahan, kita bisa panggang lama dengan temperatur tinggi namun jadinya tetap enak tidak kering. Kita telah membuat banyak video tentang berbagai kemungkinan penggunaan metode ini, silahkan ditonton. Kesimpulan, beberapa banyak penambahan air tergantung pada roti apa yang kita ingin buat, gunakanlah teknik pembuatan yang benar supaya kita bisa fleksibel dalam pemakaian metode ini.
Funnily enough, I was wondering about the 1:5 ratio myself about a week ago, and was wracking my brain on how I should calculate it for baker's percentage. I ended up doing the 1:1 yudane instead.
Try 1:2 Yudane instead, easier :)
@@NovitaListyani Yep yep, I'll try it later. I just did the 1:1 ratio because it was the one I was most familiar with at the time.
Hi. Can I use tang zhong for make baozi and mantou?
Yes, you can do that.
i have just started making bread with Tangzhong the recipe called for all purpose flour and it turned out great, i then tried same recipe but with bread flour, which was heavy and dense.
i have been very spoilt with a local bakery who makes the softest loaf. i am trying to replicate it. any ideas?
Without knowing the specific recipe, we're not sure if we can give you any useful tips. There are many ingredients that can contribute to a softer bread including ingredients that contain fat; butter, milk, eggs. To a certain degree, Tangzhong helps in that aspect. Switching from all purpose to bread flour will probably result in the dough requiring a higher hydration due to the stronger flour being used. That may be the issue that you are facing.
Interesting video 📹 How's your mom been? Hopefully she still remembers our G+ photography group 🙂
Hi Shane, I'm doing fine, thanks! How are you doing? Yes, G+ is unforgettable 😀 sadly it's gone.
how long can we store yudane in chiller ?
in my country we don't have bread flour, can I use all-purpose flour to make Tangzhong?
if you are converting from an existing recipe using all-purpose flour, yes, you can use all-purpose flour for Tangzhong/Yudane.
Thanks for this well presented science.
*The origin of scalding flour in bread baking is Europe*
Because you tried to find the root of scalding flour in China and Japan you missed the fact that scalding four has been in use in Europe for well over 2000 years. Using a Roux is many centuries old as well. Contrast this to the fact that Japanese bread baking only got established in the early 1900's with the arrival of French bakers. That BTW is why French baking still has a firm foot in Japan. The French also introduced bread baking to Vietnam. I do not know about Indonesia.
Japanese and Indonesian baking has developed their own legacy now and though it is not to my taste it is wonderfully sophisticated.
Your videos are well produced too.
I wish you well.
We did mention its western origin in an old video, you may want to watch it here czcams.com/video/ACHbkOi8esY/video.html
The central issue of this video is the 1:5 flour to water ratio that was incorrectly thought of as a new way of doing this water roux method. Thanks for your comment, really appreciate it.
Keeping in mind wheat was unknown in most of Asia before the European influx, I think there's a good case to refer to the monks who came into Japan who made their own bread in the monasteries in Europe, and some of these monks were sent also in order to provide for the relocated communities. They weren't all tied up with Christian crusading.
If we dig a little further, we find preparations like mehlkochstück in professional German bakery. So, Japan would have inherited this from Catholic monks who travelled there. Sects involved were, off the top of my head: Dominican, Benedictine, and Jesuit, but there may well have been others.
If you hunt around you will find references.
Interesting
In short miss how does tangzhong affects. The amount of the main dough. For instance miss. At a given 500 grams of flour how much tangzhong needed.
hey, another question. What do you think is the total % hydration for a brioch dough? My dough is always sticky after a long cold night in the fridge 😐
It depends on the ingredients you use, should be in the range of 55-65%, all water content of the fat used must be accounted for as brioche is heavy on fat, and introduce the fat only after the dough has developed sufficient gluten networks.
If you are using Tangzhong too, then you may want to reduce the amount of butter or milk, because Tangzhong/Yudane get in the way of gluten development too just like fat. You also need to pay extra attention on kneading time, the dough can be easily overmix.
@@NovitaListyani cool ty. my hydration is arround 70% with eggs and butter 🤪 a bit sticky after a night in the fridge. would you recommend yudane and overnight? Do you add the yudane righr at the beginning?
Yudane/Tangzhong should be left overnight at a temperature around 5°C (fridge temperature), this will accelerate a process called rétrogradation, if you use it without this process you won't get as much sweetness and Umami flavor that this method bring, you will get only soft and moist bread.
Congratulations on your channel and the way you teach the Tangzhong technique. I've used it a few times but I have a question, it's about the amount of water used in the bread recipe.
I read an article on the website about a flour called King Arthur and in this article they talk about the ideal hydration for bread with tangzhong which would be 75%. They test the same recipe, one maintaining 68% hydration without adding tangzhong, another increasing hydration to 75% without tangzhong and the last increasing hydration to 75% with the use of tangzong.
If I'm not mistaken, it has something to do with the amount of water that reduces when preparing the tangzhong and that increasing the hydration of a recipe to 75% if it is below this percentage, there is a balance of water that evaporates in the tangzhong, thus preventing it from the dough becomes dry.
Could you tell me if this is true? What would be the ideal hydration percentage of a bread recipe using tangzong made in a 1:2 ratio? If you could answer, I would be very grateful. Greetings from Brazil
czcams.com/video/Wz0PiKOWY1g/video.html
@@NovitaListyani Thank you very much!
So would you say an acceptable standard is to have a 10% Yudane, then increase water for the dough by 2% ?