A lot of people seem to think I'm saying you can't have a drummer who plays both. Then they're floating me examples of people they think check that box: folks, what do you think Zack Grooves does? Blade? Justin Brown? Jamison Ross? Spaven? Corey Fonville? (What do I try to do) 😉
I enjoyed the video a lot- Mitch Mitchell comes to mind, a drummer who played rock- with a jazz background, and improvised a lot!! I loved his style- bombastic, yet sophisticated!!
Man, please check these progressive rock/ metal band drummers: INTERVALS THE HELIX NEBULA SCALE THE SUMMIT PLINI POMEGRANATE TIGER AAL TESSERACT PERIPHERY OWANE I know ull love em
Mitchell swung the absolute hell out of his grooves. Such an open, cascading, and loose sounding beat. It takes some slick skills to make swing sound decent without sounding sloppy.
@@mrbigg7255 ..Mitch was always there except for The Band of Gypsys. But even after BOG ended they continued to play BOG material with Mitch. He continued recording with Mitch until he died but Billy Cox was on bass who in my opinion was a better bass player.
I've been studying jazz for 4 years now, and sometimes when I come back to rock gigs (my first music genre), I kinda suck. I tend to improvise too much, instead of keeping it straight, I tend to incorporate fills which are a bit too subtile and low volume, which make the global ambiance collapse for a few seconds, and so on. There's a whole science behind this topic, I love that!
Yeah it tends to be that once you learn jazz, it leeks out whenever you play something that takes less effort do well. Doesn't really even matter the instrument
Meaning like, jazz takes effort to pull off, whereas rock kind of demands that you make it look like you don't care about how virtuosic or musically "hip" you seem
as an exclusive rock drummer, you really have helped given me a fresh new perspective not just to jazz drumming but music in general I'm still not completely as read up on it as you but you definitely help with expanding musically with my playing much love
Sean Reinert was a beast of a drummer who brought his jazz background into context of death metal and got the amazing results. He fused the two worlds together...
I love that this video has so much playing to explain your idea rather than mostly talking with barely any drumming like many other drum videos out there. Its way easier to understand a concept if it's heard versus being explained only.
Thanks for the great video! It made me remember taking Drum lessons and working out of the Logical Approach to Jazz and Rock Coordination as a beginner. I'll never forget the face of my instructor when I constantly struggled working out of the Rock book, and easily breezed through the Jazz book. The Jazz rudiments felt more natural for me. So over the years I've slowly incorporated both. I don't consider myself great, but can at least accompany most any song we play at church and give it a nice groove and ambience.
When I was learning to play the drums some local cat who was pretty good told me..."You can always tell a more seasoned player because his hats are going whether he's using them or not." I didn't know how to count or what was straight or swung, I DIDN'T KNOW S***! Anyway I started incorporating the hats into everything and then realized like WAY later I was supposed to be using them to anchor time! It is one of those happy accidents now because for better or worse I learned backwards and now...I don't really sound like anyone with those absolutely random hats running through everything.
Jimmy chamberlin has always been one of my favorite rock drummers. Listening to him from a young age, one of the things I noticed he did that not many other rock drummers did was he kept that hihat pedal driving quarter notes 24/7
I always did that pretty much automatically, it was only recently that I have started to train myself to make it more of a conscious choice. I think what's most important is to have a strong sense of pulse, whether you choose to make it audible through the hats or not.
@@Christopher-md7tf I'm fine if I just let it happen (like you mentioned) sort of organically. If I start concentrating on it, instead of solidifying my grooves...it makes them sound a little shaky. It's really kind of weird...🤔🥁
I think the top down thing is true in general. The time is propelled by the cymbal pattern whereas in rock it comes from the kick and snare. Imagine a simple thought experiment where you play So What with only cymbals and Back In Black with only drums. Something is missing but it mostly still works. The reverse does not work at all.
People forget that Neil Peart did more with the ride than any other drummer in history, he was extremely precise in studio and live, an accomplished perfectionist. He did more with his many toms than most drummers do with their snare. He was extremely musical and incorporated all rudiments of drumming in music. He has consistently played perfect shows, note for note. In my opinion he was the greatest all around drummer.
I wanted to be in a punk band when I was 15 and my dad bought me a vintage slingerland drum kit. I didn't know any better. But very sweet of my Pops :D
This is true for traditional/classic boomer rock. As you get to more modern styles and subsub genres it tends to sound less like this. I.e not loud, more complex.
Great show Nate thank you. Love hearing your thoughts on all things drumming. I think if you did a 30min video on the history of cymbal felt pads it would be hilarious, entertaining and i bet we would still learn a hell of a lot.
I just finished two days of flying for 5 hours each day from Indy to Cali for a job, and it makes me appreciate touring musicians so much. Homesickness and just plain travel sickness with no appetite is such a drag. Random but damn I have so much respect for professional musicians
This is a fucking great video. Very well articulated. I just signed up with your course, and to be honest you sort of get on my nerves but this is a damn fine video. I'll probably learn the jazz course after I get through the standard..
Having seen him with Weather Report and Sting plus his work with Bowie and Daft Punk and Chic, Dire Straits et. al.. Omar Hakim is on name that I can think of that does it all and pretty damn well.
I remember in my high school jazz band I was new to jazz and still relatively new to drumming. My band director basically drilled it into my head that the hihat (foot) is the leading voice when it comes to jazz drums and thats what the band listens for. Really though, its the ride cymbal thats the leading voice and thats where you hear the time and put the time as a drummer. A lot of drummers will comp with the hihat foot or intentionally leave it out and then bring it back on 2 and 4 for a nice effect.
I have an old Paiste Signature Dry Ride that seems to work well enough from Jazz to Metal. I was surprised. It allowed me to jettison a bunch of superfluous ride cymbals. I do have a Paiste Dry Dark Ride that I tend to use on heavier gigs though. That being said, Will Kennedy played one of those rides through the mid 90's with the Yellowjackets!
Yo!!! I just love how your drums sound. You should do a walkthrough on y our mic set up and recording process. That snare!!! damm It's just sound tight!
Nice explanation of how many genres/players/CZcamsrs can differ AND be profitable to study. DrummerLife is about sharing what we have learned/are learning to make our fellow humans better. Thanks 80/20.
Hey I love this session, I am a pianist and was looking to get some ideas for jazz rhythms as I am trying develop my playing (next stop for me is those horns) stay blessed & fantastic kind regards WF Robinson
It’s absolutely true,, many jazz pieces you could almost get away with just playing the cymbals with just a few notes from the other drums now and then..
Rock usually has less freedom to vary the song approach and drum part night to night. The mindset is more “nail the part.” Jazz typically has a greater degree of freedom for the drummer’s “part” as long as you adhere to the form of the song - which itself might be open ended and subject to transition from musical cues.
@@arcadepiano I saw a reply from you but cannot find it, in which you said that Segovia is the opposite of a human metronome. Clock-based time is only one of several rhythmic approaches to music. Clock time serves two major purposes: to maintain a steady beat allowing for the audience to dance or march on tempo, or for groups of musicians to be able to perform a piece in unison, especially with more complex compositions. Segovia’s music belongs to neither of those.
@@arcadepiano I’m not sure where hip-hop comes into this. The vast majority of modern hip hop and even going back to its roots has been using recorded tracks, backing tracks or completely electronic music, with some groups preferring live r&b/blues/jazz sounding bands. Compared to Japanese and Chinese traditional music for example they are usually strictly clock-based.
Very interesting analysis and comparison between the two different styles. As you mentioned yourself there are drummers that can apply something from both styles. Roger Taylor from Queen plays a lot with his hi-hat.
I started young and could play just about any type of music and one gig I was playing jazz, the guitar player told me my ride was too loud, the next night I came in with a China type that was and still is used by plenty of jazz guys, almost no over tones and most are so dry you only hear it when you hit it, mine was a 20'" the band loved it and told me it was perfect, I told them my other ride was the same as a famous jazz drummer used, they told me we were not playing loud enough to use it, I was in my early twenties and just didn't know yet.
Great video/information. I love good drumming. I'm a guitar player but would have liked to have been a drummer if I'd have had enough talent to play drums very well. I'd rather play with no drums than with anything less than very good drumming, that's frustratingly not always possible for me. This video has helped settle debates I've had with a couple of people, drummers included - Thank you!
Let's look at John Bonham, he was primarily inspired by Buddy Rich, Gene Krupa, Max Roach etc. We can clearly see the difference between Max and Bonzo, but we can clearly tell that Bonzo was inspired by Roach (look up Moby Dick). Comparing their 2 solos Bonzo's Moby Dick and Roach's The Drum Also Waltzes, Bonzo clearly plays louder and demonstrated some otherworldly triplet licks and simple but yet awesome single stroke stuff while Roach uses a colorful demonstration of rolls and patterns. Bonzo's solo is upfront and sounds like cannons being fired yet sounds delicate and planned out whil Roach's sounds like a complicated well thought out pattern. What I'm trying to say is that Rock is a bit more "simple" sounding but is as equally and methodically planned out as Jazz, and with Jazz it is more subtle and complicated but with multiple listens with headphones, you can hear more nuances and subtle yet genius patterns that you wouldn't notice if you were just casually listening. To be fair I have been playing more 60's-90's Bonzo, Copeland, and Beauford type stuff with the only jazz song I have down is Moanin by Art Blakey so feel free to correct me Nate or anyone who knows more that I do.
You forgot to put some Joe Morello in there... Bonzo had massive Morello styled chops in his live versions of Moby Dick... as an aside, Ten Years After's drummer Rick Lee had a more Buddy Rich approach that's nowhere near Bonzo's style... So Yeah, the jazzers influenced the early rockers and it's cool to see how each picked out their favorites and put them in the context of their bands!!
I wonder if Bonham listened to Elvin Jones, because Moby Dick has a lot of echoes of Elvin's solo on The Drum Thing from John Coltrane's Crescent album.
Another great one, Nate. I particularly agree with the statement you made towards the end, about just changing equipment but not the approach. I would also say the inverse is true, and kind of dovetails to what David Cola said. In addition to playing like Aaron Spears, if you really want to sound like him, you have to set your drums up like him (at least tuning wise, if not the actual makeup of the kit, nor heights and placement). Playing Aaron Spears type licks on a jazz kit w/jazz tuning, is not going to translate very well. I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying that in my opinion I believe your kit makeup, tuning style, and playing style all obviously go hand in hand. And I think it can be difficult to come up with a fully-cover-all-styles kit setup and tuning. As someone who played in a wedding/corporate band for nearly 10 years, it was tough. But I ended up making the decision to go with what was comfortable for me as the player first (Selfish? Maybe, but I wanted to be comfortable) even though we played everything from 40s Big Band, to 60s Motown, to the occasional dinner set jazz, to Sinatra, to our bread and butter 70s disco/r&b/funk, with a smattering of some 80s and 90s hits. And my setup (then and now) is basically Steve Smith circa early 2000s, minus the last floor tom, tuned for a little fatter sound, and maybe a little more crack from the snare. And in the end, that's what makes me happy, and what I enjoy playing. No, playing Take 5 or The Way You Look Tonight wasn't very authentic from a drum sound standpoint, but we made them work..
First off, it's pronounced TAM -ber, not TIM bre. Anyway, you're getting caught up in technical minutia and missing the big point. I can recognize a jazz drummer playing rock or a rock drummer trying to play jazz within two measures. Maybe it's generational thing, but I grew up playing both. And a lot of the early rock drummers had a jazz influence -- Mitch Mitchell, Bobby Columby, Clive Bunker et al. As rock progressed the Bonham influence became apparent and power was emphasized. Thats not just volume. It's about feel, attitude and especially having an affinity, respect and love for the music. That's the biggest pitfall with jazz drummers who have chops and think rock is "easy." .
Was that Joe Morello and Lars side by side on the thumbnail? Cool examples all around. PS: What is that 'hip-hop/neo soul-ish' track playing in the background starting @ 13:21?
Lars Ulrich has straight up said he doesn't care about improving his abilities. Hes a bad example for what a Rock drummer should be. As humans, and musicians we should always strive for improvement, to make ourselves better. His failure to do that is a waste of a drummer.
@@noodlehoppa7212 Enjoy music sure. But hes the drummer for arguably the biggest metal band in the world. And hes been chucking out the same damn beats for over 35 years. I cant imagine how great Metallica could be if he gave a shit. It's like if your on the Olympic team, and your not giving it your all, then you need to get the fuck out of the way for someone else who will use the opportunity and fulfill their real potential.
First. We all have to applaud you for being able to do that you the mic 🎙 set up against your chest? Second, we all notice that small Tom slip and think about those old Ludwig small Tom mounts that never could hold. Third, great and accurate video.
Some may want to bring Stewart Copeland into scrutiny but he's too young to be gigging in 1968. thus his influences were little more contemporary. influences. Because of the era both Bonham and Densmore were born into Jazz; which was popular during the time, all make for great ingredients that nurture drummers like these two gentlemen.
As a bassist, I appreciate what you post and pass on. Here's a question, occasionally and more often than I care for, I run into a drummer that's a follower not a leader. They follow the band as opposed to setting the beat, tempo, feel, groove...and the list goes on. Do you have a post/clip that addresses this? If so, PLEASE message me. My situation is dire. Not too many musicians to choose from...and even fewer that get it regarding attitude and music. Once again I do appreciate what you post. Keep up the good work. And for the record I have forwarded a bunch of clips to folks. Drummers, bassists, and pianists...
The drummer is not your metronome. No drummer can make you play on time. If he plays spot on like a machine, and you do not, the band will sound like it is falling apart. On the other hand, if you (or another player) rush in a spot and he flows with that, the audience will likely be none the wiser. For a drummer to hold a band together requires a very deft balance between consistency and flexibility, not just from the drummer but from everyone in the band. Drums adjust to you, you adjust to drums, with every beat of every bar. The end result will be steady enough, and much more musical. Of course, if the drummer’s and/or other players’ time is so inconsistent and out of control that nothing ever settles in, then everyone in the band needs practice time with a metronome and a recording device, both alone and together.) (try getting the typical guitarist to use a metronome! Ha!)
Main diff between Jazz and rock drumming: in jazz, the other band members take responsibility for their own timing and dynamics and see the drummers as a musical contributor; in Rock, the other band members view the drummer as a crutch to keep time for them, but don’t actually listen to the drummer, so that when the band falls apart, they have no idea why. Drummers, don’t let this happen. You are not someone else’s metronome. The resulting groove (or lack hereof) that the audience hears is ALWAYS the result of what the drummer does plus what the rest of the band does, for better or for worse. If the whole band appreciates that and approaches the music accordingly, it’ll be better. If not, it’s always worse. The difference between Tom Petty and The Heartbreakers (great time, great feel all the way) and KISS (wtf?) might be an example; or between the old Billy Joel band with Lib DeVitto (far from metronomic but super tight) and Motley Crue (a complete mess).
Yes when I think jazz I think big heavy sustained washes of the cymbals, no head muting just leaving those beautiful undertones ring that just make the drum sound massive in the mix! What else do I think of, 26inch kick, wood beaters, Zildjian K’s, crisp hi hats! I say all this coming from the perspective of a doghouse, bull fiddle player. Hopefully you drummers understand what I’m trying to say. Yes first and foremost what draws me to jazz is where the cymbals sit in the mix and the cymbals with massive wash if that makes sense. Oh by the way 80/20 I just happened upon your channel about an hour ago and have watched a few videos of yours and I must say, huge fan, now subbed and sharing!
I never really liked Jazz, and don't play that often but it appears John Bonham's jazz background has impacted my playing heavily. I do tune my drums higher, though I would never tune my kick that high and I will never stop playing the hats with my foot.
"The Herbie Hancock Trio 1977" (it´s on youtube, use clipgrab), this is a cool one with Tony Williams I got into lately. I don´t know about most influental albums but this really influence me,,,
@@harrymears1623 Sure, also there is "Unseen Rain, with Jonas Hellborg/Ginger Baker/Jens Johansson from the nineties, if you+re into Baker´s take on things...
Indeed! Even tho I saw a few jazz musicians having a hard time playing AC/DC stuff. No doubt it's a matter of getting in touch with the language and feel.
I think it's just different, the days when people use to say that jazz drummer could play anything are gone, I mean I don't think that a jazz drummer could play an extreme metal set (and vice-versa, although George Kollias did manage to sound legit playing jazz...) , it's just a different set of skills! By the way I love metal and jazz, my favourite drummer is Bill Ward from Black Sabbath, he basically invented metal drumming drawing from his jazz roots...
@@andywitch666 well I think an accomplished jazz drummer would have a much easier time trying to play metal than a metal one playing jazz. Jazz is a more demanding genre than a lot of the other genres out there especially if were talking drums.
@@aidanschram9652 I did say extreme metal, obviously I agree with you if we're talking Iron Maiden/Metallica territory, but to play blastbeats and double-bass at over 220 bpm is quite a challenge, sure they'll know what to play but it's the physical demand that I was implying.
I think Phil Rudd is the quintessential rock drummer. He has solid time w. simple, grooves & fills that serve to build & release tension. Start there to learn rock drumming. Who's the quintessential jazz drummer? Someone who you can learn the basics of jazz drumming from w/o drowning in the deep end of the pool?
4:37 It seems like you're saying that drummers started playing differently to adapt to the sound of loud electric guitars and basses. If that's true then how do you explain rock drumming from the 50's? (Here's a track listing from a great compilation of rock songs from that era: images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81D-mwYlNNL._SL1200_.jpg) Most of those early rock recordings consisted of vocals, piano, drums, double bass and horns. No high noise floor from electric bass or guitar but rock drummers like Earl Palmer are still really emphasizing the kick and snare.
Early rock and roll drummers (Earl Palmer included) brought a strong New Orleans influence to the bands. (I just discovered that you can even hear Dick Richards playing the “big four” on Rock Around the Clock.) In a NO parade style jazz setting, the time keeping is between the snare drummer and bass drummer. In order to adapt to the straight 8th notes coming from guitar and piano players (Chuck Berry, Little Richard, etc.), they could either superimpose Swing drumming on top (as in Johnny B Goode) or create a hybrid between what Swing/R&B drummers were doing and what they knew of parade drumming. The bass/snare heaviness of Rock and Roll was already present in the bands of Louis Jordan, Cab Calloway and even Benny Goodman years before, but usually only in the “shout choruses,” or more R&B/blues styles. The advent of Rock and Roll is really just the moment White musicians picked up use of those styles.
No forget the number on. “The heart and the subtle dynamics like Frankie Dunlop , bill bruford to John bonham. All swing in comparison to Neal Peart style. They all are fantastic..!
I'm a metal drummer and when I must play jazz it's so different and I don't know how to play... This video is useful, thank you 👍 PS : I thought you were in UK because I think you talk more like an English than an American 😅
I forget who said it, I want to say Bill Bruford, but "the only dividing line anyone notices, between whether it's rock or it's jazz, is whether you hit the crash cymbal on the four beat, or the one beat." So, Jazz you hit the crash cymbal on the four, because the other instruments would be drowned out once they start playing their riffs on the one. But in rock, you hit the crash cymbal on the one, because they're amplified and you're emphasizing the creation of a new phrase, rather than building up to it. I've been thinking of that while I write my drum tracks, and wow does it help.
Great question. Funk is way more subtle and syncopated, more ghost notes, more off-beats on the hi-hat. It is totally based on playing around the syncopated bass lines. Reggae is quieter and looser than rock, it uses more rim clicks and less heavy snare beats, except for white reggae groups like UB40. Nate has already done a great job of covering the diff between jazz and rock in this video.
A lot of people seem to think I'm saying you can't have a drummer who plays both. Then they're floating me examples of people they think check that box: folks, what do you think Zack Grooves does? Blade? Justin Brown? Jamison Ross? Spaven? Corey Fonville? (What do I try to do) 😉
STEWART COPELAND
I enjoyed the video a lot- Mitch Mitchell comes to mind, a drummer who played rock- with a jazz background, and improvised a lot!! I loved his style- bombastic, yet sophisticated!!
@@patrickbuckley344 Mitch Mitchell couldn’t play jazz to save his life.
Man, please check these progressive rock/ metal band drummers:
INTERVALS
THE HELIX NEBULA
SCALE THE SUMMIT
PLINI
POMEGRANATE TIGER
AAL
TESSERACT
PERIPHERY
OWANE
I know ull love em
Ian Paice
That's what made Hendrix's music so good. Mitch Mitchell had a jazz background with emphasis on the cymbals
same with one of the prog drum gods, Bill Bruford from YES and King Crimson
Mitchell swung the absolute hell out of his grooves. Such an open, cascading, and loose sounding beat. It takes some slick skills to make swing sound decent without sounding sloppy.
Mitch is the Best of all time in my opinion. Jimi is top 3 guitarist for sure. Such a unique band
Mitch and Noel greatly added to Jimi’s guitar playing.
His later stuff without them wasn’t as good in my opinion.
@@mrbigg7255 ..Mitch was always there except for The Band of Gypsys. But even after BOG ended they continued to play BOG material with Mitch. He continued recording with Mitch until he died but Billy Cox was on bass who in my opinion was a better bass player.
I've been studying jazz for 4 years now, and sometimes when I come back to rock gigs (my first music genre), I kinda suck. I tend to improvise too much, instead of keeping it straight, I tend to incorporate fills which are a bit too subtile and low volume, which make the global ambiance collapse for a few seconds, and so on.
There's a whole science behind this topic, I love that!
Zaßssz
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Yeah it tends to be that once you learn jazz, it leeks out whenever you play something that takes less effort do well. Doesn't really even matter the instrument
Meaning like, jazz takes effort to pull off, whereas rock kind of demands that you make it look like you don't care about how virtuosic or musically "hip" you seem
Which in itself is a different kind of effort I guess lol
as an exclusive rock drummer, you really have helped given me a fresh new perspective not just to jazz drumming but music in general
I'm still not completely as read up on it as you but you definitely help with expanding musically with my playing
much love
My sentiments exactly, well put Mariya T🥁🥁🥁
Got me double checking what day it is....
02:25 1. jazz: cymbal higher in mix
05:57 jazz play off, rock play through
8:39 rock : closed cymbal
10:30 jazz more horizontal
12:24 hi hat
Eyy always love to hear ZakGrooves getting a shoutout
Those beautiful biceps
You can't never get enough of those
*C H O P S*
Sean Reinert was a beast of a drummer who brought his jazz background into context of death metal and got the amazing results. He fused the two worlds together...
Same with Mario Duplantier
As was Hellhammer for Black Metal.
I love that this video has so much playing to explain your idea rather than mostly talking with barely any drumming like many other drum videos out there. Its way easier to understand a concept if it's heard versus being explained only.
Thanks for the great video! It made me remember taking Drum lessons and working out of the Logical Approach to Jazz and Rock Coordination as a beginner. I'll never forget the face of my instructor when I constantly struggled working out of the Rock book, and easily breezed through the Jazz book. The Jazz rudiments felt more natural for me. So over the years I've slowly incorporated both. I don't consider myself great, but can at least accompany most any song we play at church and give it a nice groove and ambience.
When I was learning to play the drums some local cat who was pretty good told me..."You can always tell a more seasoned player because his hats are going whether he's using them or not." I didn't know how to count or what was straight or swung, I DIDN'T KNOW S***! Anyway I started incorporating the hats into everything and then realized like WAY later I was supposed to be using them to anchor time! It is one of those happy accidents now because for better or worse I learned backwards and now...I don't really sound like anyone with those absolutely random hats running through everything.
Jimmy chamberlin has always been one of my favorite rock drummers. Listening to him from a young age, one of the things I noticed he did that not many other rock drummers did was he kept that hihat pedal driving quarter notes 24/7
I always did that pretty much automatically, it was only recently that I have started to train myself to make it more of a conscious choice. I think what's most important is to have a strong sense of pulse, whether you choose to make it audible through the hats or not.
@@Christopher-md7tf I'm fine if I just let it happen (like you mentioned) sort of organically. If I start concentrating on it, instead of solidifying my grooves...it makes them sound a little shaky. It's really kind of weird...🤔🥁
Same here I heard the same thing and learned the same way so I know what you mean lol
I mean, Tim Alexander does that sometimes
I don't even drum but the way you look at the camera perfectly encapsulates how I feel about life. We're kindred spirits of a sort.
I think the top down thing is true in general. The time is propelled by the cymbal pattern whereas in rock it comes from the kick and snare. Imagine a simple thought experiment where you play So What with only cymbals and Back In Black with only drums. Something is missing but it mostly still works. The reverse does not work at all.
"Its not like we get paid by the note" Damn, that hits
People forget that Neil Peart did more with the ride than any other drummer in history, he was extremely precise in studio and live, an accomplished perfectionist. He did more with his many toms than most drummers do with their snare. He was extremely musical and incorporated all rudiments of drumming in music. He has consistently played perfect shows, note for note. In my opinion he was the greatest all around drummer.
You really need to go listen to Elvin Jones and Tony Williams
I wanted to be in a punk band when I was 15 and my dad bought me a vintage slingerland drum kit. I didn't know any better. But very sweet of my Pops :D
This is true for traditional/classic boomer rock. As you get to more modern styles and subsub genres it tends to sound less like this. I.e not loud, more complex.
modern jazz has gotten a lot more complex aswell, check out ari hoenig on drums lmao
@@hajrullah8855 Ari Hoenig is an enigma, dude is pulling from 5 different genres to play jazz with at least 10 metric modulation a song
Nate dog don’t know his own strength at 6:46
Great show Nate thank you. Love hearing your thoughts on all things drumming. I think if you did a 30min video on the history of cymbal felt pads it would be hilarious, entertaining and i bet we would still learn a hell of a lot.
Enjoyed this analogy very much... He's spot on from my perspective as a bassist that has played in both Jazz and Rock bands.
6:46 - hammer drop on the rack tom.
The *true* secret to real jazz drumming.
This video help me understand perhaps my underlying reason that I like the softer music.
Been a rocker my whole life. Learned a lot from this . Thanks
I subbed
I just finished two days of flying for 5 hours each day from Indy to Cali for a job, and it makes me appreciate touring musicians so much. Homesickness and just plain travel sickness with no appetite is such a drag. Random but damn I have so much respect for professional musicians
This is a fucking great video. Very well articulated. I just signed up with your course, and to be honest you sort of get on my nerves but this is a damn fine video. I'll probably learn the jazz course after I get through the standard..
Stay “tuned”. I see what you did there 😆
Having seen him with Weather Report and Sting plus his work with Bowie and Daft Punk and Chic, Dire Straits et. al.. Omar Hakim is on name that I can think of that does it all and pretty damn well.
I'm a bass player, not a drummer, but I really enjoy your videos.
I remember in my high school jazz band I was new to jazz and still relatively new to drumming. My band director basically drilled it into my head that the hihat (foot) is the leading voice when it comes to jazz drums and thats what the band listens for. Really though, its the ride cymbal thats the leading voice and thats where you hear the time and put the time as a drummer. A lot of drummers will comp with the hihat foot or intentionally leave it out and then bring it back on 2 and 4 for a nice effect.
It depends on the style, actually a saw a video yesterday about that, the history of jazz drum by patrick bartley
This vid could not have hit home more than it did
I have an old Paiste Signature Dry Ride that seems to work well enough from Jazz to Metal. I was surprised. It allowed me to jettison a bunch of superfluous ride cymbals.
I do have a Paiste Dry Dark Ride that I tend to use on heavier gigs though. That being said, Will Kennedy played one of those rides through the mid 90's with the Yellowjackets!
Very insightful .... thank you
This is something I've wondered for a while, nice.
Great vid! If I wasn't watching (only listening) I would have missed the tom slidin down at 6:44 , lol!
Nate’s rock drum face is hilarious. It was like “yikes this is too loud!”
thank you for this video, very instructive
Love these vids so much
Yo!!! I just love how your drums sound. You should do a walkthrough on y our mic set up and recording process. That snare!!! damm It's just sound tight!
Gary Husband. Hit's hard AF, doesn't forsake his expressive touch. His recent interview with Chick Cores is a great listen.
Thanks for your videos Nate.
Nice explanation of how many genres/players/CZcamsrs can differ AND be profitable to study. DrummerLife is about sharing what we have learned/are learning to make our fellow humans better. Thanks 80/20.
Hey I love this session, I am a pianist and was looking to get some ideas for jazz rhythms as I am trying develop my playing (next stop for me is those horns) stay blessed & fantastic kind regards WF Robinson
Great insights! 🙏
Great video!!
What’s the ride cymbal you’re using on your rock kit ?
Great video!!
still love your work!!
Great video ! Nice details. 🥁
It’s absolutely true,, many jazz pieces you could almost get away with just playing the cymbals with just a few notes from the other drums now and then..
Very interesting... Thanks!!!...
Rock usually has less freedom to vary the song approach and drum part night to night. The mindset is more “nail the part.” Jazz typically has a greater degree of freedom for the drummer’s “part” as long as you adhere to the form of the song - which itself might be open ended and subject to transition from musical cues.
Spelled “timbre” pronounced Tamber
Thought I was goin crazy lol
Lol bottomley
@@arcadepiano That’s how Segovia says it so that’s how I say it tbh
@@arcadepiano I saw a reply from you but cannot find it, in which you said that Segovia is the opposite of a human metronome.
Clock-based time is only one of several rhythmic approaches to music. Clock time serves two major purposes: to maintain a steady beat allowing for the audience to dance or march on tempo, or for groups of musicians to be able to perform a piece in unison, especially with more complex compositions. Segovia’s music belongs to neither of those.
@@arcadepiano I’m not sure where hip-hop comes into this. The vast majority of modern hip hop and even going back to its roots has been using recorded tracks, backing tracks or completely electronic music, with some groups preferring live r&b/blues/jazz sounding bands. Compared to Japanese and Chinese traditional music for example they are usually strictly clock-based.
Very interesting analysis and comparison between the two different styles. As you mentioned yourself there are drummers that can apply something from both styles. Roger Taylor from Queen plays a lot with his hi-hat.
“save it for ZakGrooves...”🤣
I started young and could play just about any type of music and one gig I was playing jazz, the guitar player told me my ride was too loud, the next night I came in with a China type that was and still is used by plenty of jazz guys, almost no over tones and most are so dry you only hear it when you hit it, mine was a 20'" the band loved it and told me it was perfect, I told them my other ride was the same as a famous jazz drummer used, they told me we were not playing loud enough to use it, I was in my early twenties and just didn't know yet.
Great video/information. I love good drumming. I'm a guitar player but would have liked to have been a drummer if I'd have had enough talent to play drums very well. I'd rather play with no drums than with anything less than very good drumming, that's frustratingly not always possible for me. This video has helped settle debates I've had with a couple of people, drummers included - Thank you!
Let's look at John Bonham, he was primarily inspired by Buddy Rich, Gene Krupa, Max Roach etc. We can clearly see the difference between Max and Bonzo, but we can clearly tell that Bonzo was inspired by Roach (look up Moby Dick). Comparing their 2 solos Bonzo's Moby Dick and Roach's The Drum Also Waltzes, Bonzo clearly plays louder and demonstrated some otherworldly triplet licks and simple but yet awesome single stroke stuff while Roach uses a colorful demonstration of rolls and patterns. Bonzo's solo is upfront and sounds like cannons being fired yet sounds delicate and planned out whil Roach's sounds like a complicated well thought out pattern. What I'm trying to say is that Rock is a bit more "simple" sounding but is as equally and methodically planned out as Jazz, and with Jazz it is more subtle and complicated but with multiple listens with headphones, you can hear more nuances and subtle yet genius patterns that you wouldn't notice if you were just casually listening. To be fair I have been playing more 60's-90's Bonzo, Copeland, and Beauford type stuff with the only jazz song I have down is Moanin by Art Blakey so feel free to correct me Nate or anyone who knows more that I do.
Most of the classic rock drummers were jazzers at heart even Alex Van Halen
You forgot to put some Joe Morello in there... Bonzo had massive Morello styled chops in his live versions of Moby Dick... as an aside, Ten Years After's drummer Rick Lee had a more Buddy Rich approach that's nowhere near Bonzo's style... So Yeah, the jazzers influenced the early rockers and it's cool to see how each picked out their favorites and put them in the context of their bands!!
I wonder if Bonham listened to Elvin Jones, because Moby Dick has a lot of echoes of Elvin's solo on The Drum Thing from John Coltrane's Crescent album.
@@G60syncro Great example! But I chose Roach as his influence comes earlier in Moby Dick.
@@Drskillet1 Most likely
You should go through Martin Lopez when he was in Opeth. He brought Latin jazz to death metal.
How would Chicago Blues, 60's-70s R&B/Funk fit on the Jazz-Rock Kit and Technique Spectrums?
Also Organ Trio Drumming vs. Acoustic Jazz Drumming?
Another great one, Nate. I particularly agree with the statement you made towards the end, about just changing equipment but not the approach. I would also say the inverse is true, and kind of dovetails to what David Cola said. In addition to playing like Aaron Spears, if you really want to sound like him, you have to set your drums up like him (at least tuning wise, if not the actual makeup of the kit, nor heights and placement). Playing Aaron Spears type licks on a jazz kit w/jazz tuning, is not going to translate very well. I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying that in my opinion I believe your kit makeup, tuning style, and playing style all obviously go hand in hand. And I think it can be difficult to come up with a fully-cover-all-styles kit setup and tuning. As someone who played in a wedding/corporate band for nearly 10 years, it was tough. But I ended up making the decision to go with what was comfortable for me as the player first (Selfish? Maybe, but I wanted to be comfortable) even though we played everything from 40s Big Band, to 60s Motown, to the occasional dinner set jazz, to Sinatra, to our bread and butter 70s disco/r&b/funk, with a smattering of some 80s and 90s hits. And my setup (then and now) is basically Steve Smith circa early 2000s, minus the last floor tom, tuned for a little fatter sound, and maybe a little more crack from the snare. And in the end, that's what makes me happy, and what I enjoy playing. No, playing Take 5 or The Way You Look Tonight wasn't very authentic from a drum sound standpoint, but we made them work..
First off, it's pronounced TAM -ber, not TIM bre. Anyway, you're getting caught up in technical minutia and missing the big point. I can recognize a jazz drummer playing rock or a rock drummer trying to play jazz within two measures. Maybe it's generational thing, but I grew up playing both. And a lot of the early rock drummers had a jazz influence -- Mitch Mitchell, Bobby Columby, Clive Bunker et al. As rock progressed the Bonham influence became apparent and power was emphasized. Thats not just volume. It's about feel, attitude and especially having an affinity, respect and love for the music. That's the biggest pitfall with jazz drummers who have chops and think rock is "easy." .
Tamboureen
Was that Joe Morello and Lars side by side on the thumbnail? Cool examples all around. PS: What is that 'hip-hop/neo soul-ish' track playing in the background starting @ 13:21?
Helpful comparison particularly as there is not a lot of jazz these days.
Lars Ulrich has straight up said he doesn't care about improving his abilities. Hes a bad example for what a Rock drummer should be. As humans, and musicians we should always strive for improvement, to make ourselves better. His failure to do that is a waste of a drummer.
Excatly, because not improving yourself is staying in one place. And staying still is really moving backwards.
Ehh even tho I think he trash, he has every right to enjoy music the way he wants to
I hate him. I want to slap him with a stick control book.
@@noodlehoppa7212 Enjoy music sure. But hes the drummer for arguably the biggest metal band in the world. And hes been chucking out the same damn beats for over 35 years. I cant imagine how great Metallica could be if he gave a shit. It's like if your on the Olympic team, and your not giving it your all, then you need to get the fuck out of the way for someone else who will use the opportunity and fulfill their real potential.
Lars - love him or hate him - has inspired many to play the drums over the years...how could he be considered a "failure", in that regard?
First. We all have to applaud you for being able to do that you the mic 🎙 set up against your chest? Second, we all notice that small Tom slip and think about those old Ludwig small Tom mounts that never could hold. Third, great and accurate video.
I really like your main ride (that you have on your right). Can you please tell what it is?
Some may want to bring Stewart Copeland into scrutiny but he's too young to be gigging in 1968.
thus his influences were little more contemporary. influences.
Because of the era
both Bonham and Densmore were born into Jazz; which was popular during the time, all make for great ingredients that nurture drummers like these two gentlemen.
As a bassist, I appreciate what you post and pass on. Here's a question, occasionally and more often than I care for, I run into a drummer that's a follower not a leader. They follow the band as opposed to setting the beat, tempo, feel, groove...and the list goes on. Do you have a post/clip that addresses this? If so, PLEASE message me. My situation is dire. Not too many musicians to choose from...and even fewer that get it regarding attitude and music. Once again I do appreciate what you post. Keep up the good work. And for the record I have forwarded a bunch of clips to folks. Drummers, bassists, and pianists...
The drummer is not your metronome. No drummer can make you play on time. If he plays spot on like a machine, and you do not, the band will sound like it is falling apart. On the other hand, if you (or another player) rush in a spot and he flows with that, the audience will likely be none the wiser. For a drummer to hold a band together requires a very deft balance between consistency and flexibility, not just from the drummer but from everyone in the band. Drums adjust to you, you adjust to drums, with every beat of every bar. The end result will be steady enough, and much more musical. Of course, if the drummer’s and/or other players’ time is so inconsistent and out of control that nothing ever settles in, then everyone in the band needs practice time with a metronome and a recording device, both alone and together.) (try getting the typical guitarist to use a metronome! Ha!)
Main diff between Jazz and rock drumming: in jazz, the other band members take responsibility for their own timing and dynamics and see the drummers as a musical contributor; in Rock, the other band members view the drummer as a crutch to keep time for them, but don’t actually listen to the drummer, so that when the band falls apart, they have no idea why.
Drummers, don’t let this happen. You are not someone else’s metronome. The resulting groove (or lack hereof) that the audience hears is ALWAYS the result of what the drummer does plus what the rest of the band does, for better or for worse. If the whole band appreciates that and approaches the music accordingly, it’ll be better. If not, it’s always worse. The difference between Tom Petty and The Heartbreakers (great time, great feel all the way) and KISS (wtf?) might be an example; or between the old Billy Joel band with Lib DeVitto (far from metronomic but super tight) and Motley Crue (a complete mess).
nice one!
Cool video. I'm a long time rock drummer and wouldn't even know where to begin playing jazz. It also doesn't help that I am primarily self taught.
I think Bill Ward has a very strong jazz background, and was instrumental in shaping a revolution in rock :P
Yes when I think jazz I think big heavy sustained washes of the cymbals, no head muting just leaving those beautiful undertones ring that just make the drum sound massive in the mix! What else do I think of, 26inch kick, wood beaters, Zildjian K’s, crisp hi hats! I say all this coming from the perspective of a doghouse, bull fiddle player. Hopefully you drummers understand what I’m trying to say. Yes first and foremost what draws me to jazz is where the cymbals sit in the mix and the cymbals with massive wash if that makes sense. Oh by the way 80/20 I just happened upon your channel about an hour ago and have watched a few videos of yours and I must say, huge fan, now subbed and sharing!
I never really liked Jazz, and don't play that often but it appears John Bonham's jazz background has impacted my playing heavily. I do tune my drums higher, though I would never tune my kick that high and I will never stop playing the hats with my foot.
When it comes to jazz cymbals give Lewis Nash a listen...
A video on the most influential jazz albums for drumming and what was significant about them would be really cool
"The Herbie Hancock Trio 1977" (it´s on youtube, use clipgrab), this is a cool one with Tony Williams I got into lately. I don´t know about most influental albums but this really influence me,,,
@@vaihelvetedjavlafanskit6863 Thanks so much Ill check it out :)
@@harrymears1623 Sure, also there is "Unseen Rain, with Jonas Hellborg/Ginger Baker/Jens Johansson from the nineties, if you+re into Baker´s take on things...
Honestly I think jazz is harder to play
Indeed! Even tho I saw a few jazz musicians having a hard time playing AC/DC stuff. No doubt it's a matter of getting in touch with the language and feel.
I mean any is specially at high levels. I think they require different skills.
I think it's just different, the days when people use to say that jazz drummer could play anything are gone, I mean I don't think that a jazz drummer could play an extreme metal set (and vice-versa, although George Kollias did manage to sound legit playing jazz...) , it's just a different set of skills! By the way I love metal and jazz, my favourite drummer is Bill Ward from Black Sabbath, he basically invented metal drumming drawing from his jazz roots...
@@andywitch666 well I think an accomplished jazz drummer would have a much easier time trying to play metal than a metal one playing jazz. Jazz is a more demanding genre than a lot of the other genres out there especially if were talking drums.
@@aidanschram9652 I did say extreme metal, obviously I agree with you if we're talking Iron Maiden/Metallica territory, but to play blastbeats and double-bass at over 220 bpm is quite a challenge, sure they'll know what to play but it's the physical demand that I was implying.
What happened to that tom at 6:48? =D Anyways I was hoping for a reference or video clip of Guy from That Thing You Do playing "Spartacus".
11:46 Akane Hirose would say BECAUSE IT'S AWESOME
Curmudgeon here. Jazz is circular, Rock is square. Somewhere in the middle, there's polygons.
Nate, I think you’re my favorite jazz drummer.
I think Phil Rudd is the quintessential rock drummer. He has solid time w. simple, grooves & fills that serve to build & release tension. Start there to learn rock drumming.
Who's the quintessential jazz drummer? Someone who you can learn the basics of jazz drumming from w/o drowning in the deep end of the pool?
I'm thinking Art Blakey? Along the lines of Moanin'
Jimmy Cobb imo, Kind of Blue is a great example of in the pocket jazz drums
Bless you all. I have homework to do
@@andrewmitchell8 - Great call on Mr. Cobb. A great tribute to Jimmy by Rick Beato, czcams.com/video/nW0gaK5Psh8/video.html
Max Roach
Other instruments - ambient noise - lolololololol. Great video.
I somehow subconsciously liked cymbals higher in the mix. Makes sense now.
What is the main ride cymbal in jazz
Haha! Joe Morello next to Lars Ulrich on the cover photo. Could there be a bigger difference?
4:37
It seems like you're saying that drummers started playing differently to adapt to the sound of loud electric guitars and basses. If that's true then how do you explain rock drumming from the 50's? (Here's a track listing from a great compilation of rock songs from that era: images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81D-mwYlNNL._SL1200_.jpg)
Most of those early rock recordings consisted of vocals, piano, drums, double bass and horns. No high noise floor from electric bass or guitar but rock drummers like Earl Palmer are still really emphasizing the kick and snare.
Early rock and roll drummers (Earl Palmer included) brought a strong New Orleans influence to the bands. (I just discovered that you can even hear Dick Richards playing the “big four” on Rock Around the Clock.) In a NO parade style jazz setting, the time keeping is between the snare drummer and bass drummer. In order to adapt to the straight 8th notes coming from guitar and piano players (Chuck Berry, Little Richard, etc.), they could either superimpose Swing drumming on top (as in Johnny B Goode) or create a hybrid between what Swing/R&B drummers were doing and what they knew of parade drumming. The bass/snare heaviness of Rock and Roll was already present in the bands of Louis Jordan, Cab Calloway and even Benny Goodman years before, but usually only in the “shout choruses,” or more R&B/blues styles. The advent of Rock and Roll is really just the moment White musicians picked up use of those styles.
No forget the number on. “The heart and the subtle dynamics like Frankie Dunlop , bill bruford to John bonham. All swing in comparison to Neal Peart style. They all are fantastic..!
Nice
Authenticity....The most important thing. When you can fake that...You've got it made!
Does it make a difference what level of complexity each is capable of playing ie. Weckle Cobham, Appice, Tony Williams
10:57....Eh, I might!
Why do you only have partial cymbals?
Who got better chops? Rock drummers? Or Jazz drummers?
Did u just put lars ulrich in the thumbnail to represent rock drummers?
I'm a metal drummer and when I must play jazz it's so different and I don't know how to play...
This video is useful, thank you 👍
PS : I thought you were in UK because I think you talk more like an English than an American 😅
Talent
Wait. In which side? 🤣
@@8020drummer jazz of course, and almost all great rock drummers came from jazz
I forget who said it, I want to say Bill Bruford, but "the only dividing line anyone notices, between whether it's rock or it's jazz, is whether you hit the crash cymbal on the four beat, or the one beat."
So, Jazz you hit the crash cymbal on the four, because the other instruments would be drowned out once they start playing their riffs on the one. But in rock, you hit the crash cymbal on the one, because they're amplified and you're emphasizing the creation of a new phrase, rather than building up to it. I've been thinking of that while I write my drum tracks, and wow does it help.
It's the outfit.
Jazz drummers: fancy
Rock drummers: sleeveless T-shirt
I'm no a drummer, so I apologize if this is a silly question. Would big band drumming be somewhat of a combination between rock and jazz drumming?
...depends who is playing!...
Stewart Copeland...hybrid..one of the best👍🏼
What about the difference between Funk drumming, Reggae drumming, Rock drumming, and Jazz drumming?
Great question. Funk is way more subtle and syncopated, more ghost notes, more off-beats on the hi-hat. It is totally based on playing around the syncopated bass lines. Reggae is quieter and looser than rock, it uses more rim clicks and less heavy snare beats, except for white reggae groups like UB40. Nate has already done a great job of covering the diff between jazz and rock in this video.