Is Talent on Drums a Lie?
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- čas přidán 30. 06. 2024
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Chapters
0:00 - intro
3:50 - what’s the 10,000-hour rule
6:40 - critiques of the 10k hour rule
7:54 - what about contradictory studies
9:51 - the strongest critiques of Ericsson
12:25 - the cohort effect
13:34 - the reason for hope
15:27 - outro
Sports study I reference - pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27217... - Hudba
As Steve Gadd once told me, "While you were out playing baseball and getting laid, I was in my room practicing."
Yeah practicing the skin flute
You know him?
There was a South Park episode that actually hit that nail on the head
The one where the girls made an attractiveness list for the boys
Basically the weird/ugly/derp kids who don’t have a huge social ecosystem who also have the propensity to obsess over a certain thing do that thing a shitload
I’ve noticed that before you’re successful you’re “deluded” and after you’re “tenacious/talented/genius”
@@Djacob_ lmao you sound like a lame
@@nosfy and you’re an old fart
Don't get discouraged by watching El Estepario Siberiano. he has clearly said that he was suffering from depression after he couldn't finish school and other stuff. he started playing drums as a way to overcome depression. he would practice 8 hours a day 24/7 for years. he didn't get out of his house. He has done more than 10,000 hours of practice
That's not correct. He was already a professional drummer before dropping out of Uni and becoming popular online. He got depressed because he was fired from his band, which was his job at the time. He decided to record all the progress he had achieved and that's when he got famous.
I would rather say « don’t get discouraged by watching El Estepario Siberiano, he is exceptional. Thousands of people have been making a living out of playing the drums without having 10% of his technical proficiency. You don’t need to be in the top 0.1% to do what you love and even make a living out of it. »
Plus every drummer has their place Ringo has a bigger influence. But that being said I love El Estabariano
Thanks Nate!
"8 hours a day 24/7" ?? Not sure you understand what 24/7 means my dude!
Talent is front loaded.
It makes an enormous difference at the start of journey, and asymptotically less as you approach the end.
Purely theoretical example: take two ten year old kids who have never touched the drums, one who has a natural affinity, and one who has very little affinity. One learns a simple 4/4 beat in minutes, while the other takes hours. Have them practice properly (assume both practice as ideally as is possible) for four hours a day, five days a week. At the end of the first month, there will be a continent between the two subjects. At the end of the first year, a chasm. At the end of the first five to ten years, a noticeable gap. At the end of the fiftieth year, the better drummer will likely come down to your subjective judgement.
Natural affinity grants a head start (which is magnified when you start very young), but at the end of the day, it's hard (and smart) work that gets you to the destination.
true, though I think I covered this in the video. In real life, that second kid id going to wash out of drums long before they get to music school imho.
Best comment about this topic I’ve read. I 100% agree with you. Now I don’t need to watch the video to feel like I agree with someone else. Sorry Nate
I tend to agree. I first took piano lessons when I was very young and although I never realised it at the time, I probably had a natural affinity for it. Now many years later attempting to learn the drums as an adult, I realise the unfair advantage I would have given myself if I'd started learning drums in my formative years also. I now consider my drumming ability to have 'caught up' to my piano playing ability - but it has taken many more years of practice and dedication to the drums, than I ever remember spending on my piano practice as a kid. The speed of how quickly you can pick something up before moving onto the next learning task is huge. I suspect that all the people in the study who completed 10,000 hours of practice saw significant progress in that time. A less talented person putting in just as much effort would probably have given up well before the 10,000 hours, as they didn't make progress fast enough and got disillusioned. I like to think of talent as 'untapped potential'. Everyone has a measure of talent - but they need to put in the work to realise that talent. So just because someone has talent it doesn't mean they don't have to work for it. But likewise, someone who is less talented may have to put in more work to attain the same level of playing ability.
Source? I’m genuinely curious.
@@8020drummer There also has to be a personality that is satisfied with mastering a single thing....a real passion. I LOVE playing the drums with my band on stage, but to be honest, I'm never going to be Eloy or Sibiriano or Gadd.....I just enjoy too many things to really dedicate myself to becoming a master at any one of them. I see this in my career as an attorney as well.....There are going to be folks that become experts in their field and become known as the go to attorney for federal construction contracts, or supreme court appeals.......that aint me! Im perfectly fine with this by the way! Im completely satisfied to be a "good enough" drummer with a gazillion other interests! Which is EXACTLY your point around minute 12 of this video!
I started playing around 20 years old. Now 38, I feel like I’ve progressed a decent amount but when I first started, I started alone and picked up drums quickly and got so many compliments from friends and fellow drummers saying I had the talent for it. While I felt proud of myself and motivated I think it did me more harm than anything else, and it was because I felt I didn’t have to really put in work to get a whole lot better. Anyway, at the time there was a kid who’d been playing for about 3 or 4 years before I started, now he practiced all the time, everyday I would see him with his pad and practicing paradiddles or triplets and thought “maybe I should be doing that too” but I didn’t. Anyway, fast forward to 18 years later, he plays for an orchestra, reads music, knows about 3 other instruments and I can humbly say he’s at where I think I should be by now but he put in the hours to something he’s passionate and I didn’t. Not to take away that I don’t love playing drums, I think the issue with me has always been putting enough dedication to the craft and lacking discipline when it comes to practicing things and I feel my playing now is clearly a result of that mindset. Really enjoyed this video!
Yes. I fell into that trap, too. But hey, I'm 60 and back on the pads!
I’ve been playing drums on an off for 15 years. I recently found your channel and I can honestly say that your videos have leveled up my drumming in just a few months. You’ve helped me break down and tie together some of the techniques and ideas I’ve been dancing around for years. Having more fun than ever. Major thanks, will continue to watch and support your great work!
I'm a wannabe drummer, so I watch your videos. I have an interesting view on this topic. The first time someone asked me to pat my head and rub my tummy simultaneously, I did it effortlessly. I then switched hands and did it. I could also alternate clockwise or counterclockwise. I could even pat my tummy and rub my head and do all the combinations. That's natural talent. Yet I believe all but a few with deliberate practice could do it too.
I went to high school with someone that played in the NHL, was drafted #1, and failed miserably. Doug Wickenheiser. Look it up. Doug had a mustache and was fully grown at 14. He had a genetic advantage that made him a world class player up until he was 19 when he joined the NHL. Natural talent got him there, but then he ran into others that practiced more than he did. If you read the story about Wayne Gretzky, he spent thousands of hours practicing. He wasn't a fully grown man at 14. I don't know if Wayne was naturally gifted with above average hand eye coordination because he was so focused on hockey, he didn't do anything else. Wayne of course is considered the greatest ever in hockey.
If Doug had practiced more instead of relying on natural talent, I think he'd have had a far better career. There are four types of people in ALL endevours with where I crudely demonstrate where they would fall into a gradient curve.
Talent + Quality Practice = Top 5%
Quality Practice Alone = Top 20% to Top 5%
Talent Alone = Top 40% to Top 20%
Little talent + low quality practice = Everyone else
No matter how much talent you have, quality practice will get you into the top 1/3 or higher and that is enough to be happy and successful
I was with you until you gave the matrix like it was foregone. It’s an interesting hypothesis, and largely agrees with my suspicions, but we can’t really say for sure until it’s been studied
10,000 hours noodling in front of TV < 2,000 hours focused practice
Side note -- I have spent over 50,000 hours trying to sleep and I'm still complete garbage at it.
Really nice video man, and great topic.
I completely agree with the fundamental theme that all of these ways include time playing your instrument 10,000 hours.
I like to think great players learn how to learn...Environmental factors can help provide that at a young age (like JD Beck getting mentorship from Sput). I would assume the best spend 10,000 hours learning to practice well. Then they spend another 100,000 hours learning to play well. Of course these numbers are just arbitrary...and there are so many different ways to become great. However, I feel its important to highlight how we spend that 10,000 hours. I remember Benny Greb speaking on the importance of focused practice vs unfocused. A crude reduction of what he said is that an hour of focused practice was (basically) better than 5 hours of noodling in front of a TV. He admitted that you can train your muscles passively while focusing on other things, but as musicians the connection to the brain is the most important part to train! Love that idea.
Always love your videos and tone as a voice in the drum community! Thanks Nate!
Thank you for saying what I was thinking but saying it so much better. You’re absolutely right. Focussed practice is a massive factor combined with the right tools and understanding of how to practice.😊
@@ianmclean5541 Heck yeah dude thanks for the acknowledgement! I love this topic!
When I'm learning something new, I have to focus. After that I will often practice the thing and allow myself to multitask. It depends on the goal. A good deal of practice is just repetition and working the muscles & eventually getting to the point you can play things without conscious thought
I am 65yo and am convinced that any endeavor for a man is “10% inspiration and 90% perspiration”.
If I had known this in 1974 I would’ve PRACTICED instead of running around PRETENDING to be so talented.
I ended up building hardwood stairs and giving up drums. Regrets? Sure. Unhappy? Not a chance!
Love your channel, Nate, been a sub for years 👍
What about for a woman?
@@BeatKasterG sorry, I include women also, my bad 😣
You can still return to drums and play music just for fun. It's never too late to play music.
Dude! I grew up a couple miles from O'Hare in Chicago. I feel your pain. Every phone conversation had at least one "hang on, there's a plane... ok go ahead." Great vid with an important message. At the end of the day, what difference does it make? Are you having fun practicing/playing? Are you getting better? Then keep going, talent or not.
I think the strong form of the "talent fundamentalist" argument is that only talented people can actually get better. Which makes it a bit chicken/egg, but "if you're getting better" probably means you're already talented, so, as you say, keep on keeping on
Talent definitely plays a role. I’ve been playing for 54 years and I can’t play like Serbiano. I ‘m more than 40 years older than him! I’ve practiced at least 10,000 hours, probably more. Plus I play gigs two to 5 times a week. I consider myself to have had a small amount of talent. I played gigs at 13 years old. Also as a teacher I can tell you 85-90% Of the students I get have little or no ability. I try as best I can to encourage them anyway. One last thing, I’ve met guys almost never practice and they sound almost as good as i do. How do you account for that ?
@@jeffdecker8665 This times 1000! As a bucket list I took up drums at age 59 three years ago. I have a great instructor who is as patient as Job and gives me realistic, yet challenging, exercises.
The truth of the matter, however, is that even with an hour of practice a day I am lamentable. I can do basic rudiments and basic beats and fills but it is astounding how "ungifted" I am musically. I can't even play Wipeout!
Yet I see local 7th and 8th graders who are FAR more advanced than I am. I know, don't compare oneself to others and I really enjoy this, but I am also perfectly frank with my instructor that I never would have had the drumming "it" even if I had started early in life. Heck, I can barely keep a great WITH a met!
My point? That I lean very far to the idea that talent is very real and no amount of work can get past that. I have a surgeon friend who has litte free time in life yet can play the clarinet like a seasoned session musician.
@@jeffdecker8665 I would think the amount one has played is irrelevant if ones musical goal and direction is different from Serbiano for instance when comparing ones playing to his. Is it possible that if one practiced the things he did using the same regiment one would have the same result the variable being the time it takes to reach the same results? Not really sure how you'd quantify something like that but it would be interesting to compare 2 willing students with the same drive but different talent levels.
I consider talent as ones speed of understanding and or ability to accomplish a task / reach a goal. I feel talent will get you to a deeper level of ability quickly but it seems that one will run into a wall, no matter the talent level, that necessitates further understanding and practice to get beyond that plateau.
I suppose talent could be associated with feel in subjects like this and that might be linked more to physical attributes than learned through practice, at least on a fundamental level, for music?
So the question I'd ask myself is, do the guys that almost never practice actually get any better or do they just kind of hover around the same level correlating to the amount they play.
@@frumpywonkmeyer4518 I agree with your assessment. You are right that talent is the ability to learn something quickly and not too painfully😝 . If something is too hard to learn, most people will quit, I see it all the time.
Also, you’re right about comparing oneself to someone else. When I think about the types of practicing I’ve done over the years, it wasn’t always about being technically amazing. Some of it was reading or coordination or music theory, or odd times etc…. So I think what you practice to reach your goals is as important as how much. 20 years ago I didn’t know it was even possible to play double strokes with your feet. Now it’s done all the time. If I spent the next 10 years practicing that I could probably do it. Is it worth it. I don’t know?
Spot on for the most part. I think ANYONE can practice drums enough to get technically proficient to a level where they could play professionally in most genres. But there are what I like to call "intangibles" - and those are qualities to a drummer's playing that are unique to them alone. They can't be taught. And those intangibles are something that usually emerge pretty early in a player's journey and become part of a signature playing style. And then there are matters of having feel and groove - and that is having a sense of how a song flows and ebbs and being able to naturally sense when to play ahead or behind the beat. Not every drummer can do this well no matter how much they practice. Listen, there's a reason that no one can play Bonzo's drum parts quite as well he did - the dude had an almost supernatural sense of groove. And I've seen high-profile drummers who are as studied and well-practiced as someone could be still struggle with this. And those are the guys who sound like a drum machine. Perfect meter and mechanics with no sense of feel and dynamics at all. One such drummer who shall remain nameless just lost his job in a high-profile prog-metal outfit to the original drummer because of this. And that original drummer has amazing groove and feel despite being much less technically-proficient (although to be fair, he's no slouch there either). So, yeah talent helps - it's not a lie. I think it can be the difference between someone who has studied and practiced to the point of technical perfection vs. someone who has developed a dynamic and instantly identifiable signature sound and style. Both of those types of drummers can be very successful - but who are you going to remember?
My father always said to have the passion to work hard and persevere for your dreams is a talent all on it's own
The most inspiring part of this video is the last 30 seconds. KEEP GOING!
I started playing 3 months ago at 43 years-old. I am busy as hell, but definitely find that the more I can put in, the more I get out.
I am never going to try to aspire to Siberiano levels because I know I don’t have that kind of time to put in.
I find that setting modest goals has been really good for me: hold a groove in time with a click, work on limb independence etc.
All of that being said, even in the last couple months, I have gone from feeling uncoordinated as a slug to actually being able to intersperse 16ths on the kick while keeping steady 8ths on the hats. This is huge-and a big motivator to see where I can potentially grow from there.
At the end of the day, I just fucking love playing. Best midlife crisis ever.
Such a thought provoking video (again)! I'm 51. If i'd seen myself doing what i now do as a teenager, I'd be so disappointed; still playing with the same concert band i started when i was 8 with euphonium, then switched to drums & percussion at 15. Never "made it", still trying to achieve a smooth double-stroke roll, even moved back to my hometown early on. On the other hand; lifetime of musical friendships, competency to play anything i want within that context (on drums and percussion) and occasionally conducting both concert and percussion ensembles without much formal training at that. Spreading the good word of teaching percussion via the local PAS chapter regularly.
And enjoying every second of it all. The 15-year old me would have his jaw on the floor seeing my double-stroke roll. A 20- or 30-something me would find it beyond incredible how i lock-in with some tuba/ bass players i've been playing with for 30+ years. This is a path of mastery we will never master. We get better, yes, and striving to get even better and getting to know the most amazing people in your musical life along the way is the point of it all.
Keep up the good work, Nate!
Hey Nate, just wanted to thank you for this video. I had a student, new to the drums, ask me before a lesson recently whether some people innately have "it" or not, and it was very useful to have this thoughtful video rattling around in my brain while I tried to answer their question.
The struggle is real! Great video bruh. We are all here for the long one and the deepy 😂
Natural talent in music means good ears, perception, intelligence, musicality, picking things up easily, duplicating and remembering parts fast. There are people who definitely have all that and there are others who don't (as much, anyway) and have to struggle much more. That's one part of the argument.
The other part that relates to the 10,000 hours rule is also controversial. There's a difference if one has open minded instructors who can help efficiently a student get there; What are they are going to study in those 10,000 hours? There's mindless practice and there's fruitful practice that helps one overcome their limitations, improve technique, enhance their creativity and develop musicality.
Especially in drumming all that applies more, since the drumset is less than 150 years old.
That being said, things are much better now than 25 years ago, so Siberiano has a point; we are just lazy.
Watch Yoyoka! She was better than most drummers as soon as she got muscles enough to hit the drums. She is on another level than "CZcams drummers" that edit their audio/videos to be impressive
This video was very topical for me, and I appreciate you taking the time to compile all of this research! Thank you, and great video! You are incredibly talented and appreciated.
Great video Nate - It's hard as we get older to dedicate the same time to drums for sure, I think at the stage a lot of us are at it's about WHAT we are working on and learning, not just how many hours a day. Finding the right material to work on that excites you and challenges you is crucial I think.
Thank you, Nate. Inspiring video! I feel like part of the journey is doing the "inner work," overcoming ego, etc. I heard Kendrick Scott say its like a food pyramid of technical, conceptual, imaginative, and top of pyramid is spiritual.
There’s no question some people are naturally much better than other. A analogy; Some people can throw a ball 90 mph +, while most people could practice for a lifetime, but would never get close.
Very interesting video. I always wondered about this topic, and also about myself and this. 60 years has passed since I started, and took minimal lessons. But I did put in tremendous effort in , in my teens. Turned pro at age 17, and after 5 years did manual labor day job and only played weekends. People have always told me how good I am, but because this is my field, I actually know that I am fair, maybe just a bit better than fair. I had the 10,000 hours in likely around age 22-25. I think my talent was minimal, just determination got me here, retired from day jobs, and pro drumming again for the past few years. I am almost 69 btw. I love playing my drums and expressing myself through music. It is still fun, and I am happy that I never quit.
Nate I think you hit the nail on the head, when you talked about talent producing quick progress!! Thus, giving motivation to keep pushing and growing!! I have always wondered something!! If you take 100 beginner drummers and had each use the exact same practice structure for a year. Would they all be at similar skill sets? Look at bodybuilding and the bench press!! Some will get a bigger chest!! Some will get stronger!! Some will get both!! Some will not even look like they have ever touched a weight!! I believe the bottom line, do something because it brings you joy!! Another topic you touched on!! We are all different, and being you is what makes you awesome!! Wonder video Nate and yes I watched it all!! Have a wonderful weekend brother!!
you're already a really talented player, but beyond what you say being true, I really think that is useful and valuable, and that you have think about it to be like this, and this really talks a lot about you as a person. Glad to follow you, man.
Thanks Nate for the longy and deepy.... My thoughts? I am going to be 63 this year. I started working professionally at 18 years of age. For the bulk of my life I have only played drums to make a living. In 2000 I started a small company not related to music as a side hustle. I had always heard the 10,000 hours to be an expert, but I thought that meant both practicing and also performing and gigging. So in my 45 years of drumming I considered myself an expert, but I never did the 8 hour a day practice routine Weckl or Gavin Harrison did to make them in my opinion two of the greatest drummers of all time. Now, at my age, I have more of a passion to play then I ever did as a younger man. At that time I was working full time at Disney World and freelancing. I always felt like a reasonably big fish in a medium pond. I always knew had I gone to New York or LA without having gone to North Texas or Berklee I would have in all likelihood been sent packing. So I feel I have enough talent to have alot of people tell me I play great, and I see improvement when I practice new things, but I am light years from being a Vinnie, Larnell, or a thousand other guys. At my age, I wonder, do I just resign myself to the fact I may never get there? Do I just strive to be the biggest fish in my medium pond? There are so many variables about this topic. I always enjoy your videos. You get deep and I like that. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this. I invite you to check out my playing if you have not already and share your thoughts with where you, a total stranger think I am at. Maybe I suck, and I am kidding myself. Thanks Nate!
few thoughts - comparing yourself to others is literally worthless. (gaining inspiration from others is valid.) If drumming is a means to an end of producing pleasure in your life, wouldn't it make more sense to try to exceed the threshold at which you can enjoy playing every time you sit down? I've seen a lot of coaching students who said similar things, then we fixed some basic things to get them out of a rut, and they were on a different trajectory. But also with a changed understanding, because we'd filled in a lot of the territory between them and, say, larnell. But I also say take anybody who thinks they'll "never have what it takes", and let them practice an hour-a-day for ten years, and 99% of them will have washed out, or just done it in fits-and-starts, and the other 1% will be killer players.
im another random guy and i know you didn't ask but I genuinely think you sound very good. I hope the youtube algo is kind to you in the future. Dont take this as an insult or something backhanded, I just don't see you playing anything that makes me go HOly eff that is incredible. its just all very well played exactly how it should be to fit the music and that's fine. It just lacks the wow factor that would make you stand out amongst all the other good players. there's no obligation for you to do that its just that I think the internet rewards ppl who do flashy stuff
@@efafe4972 I certainly don't take offense. Was this a comment on the talent subject, or just a meditation on my youtube success visavis my flashiness? I think flashiness is probably more important for stuff like tiktok or insta. Siberiano is the biggest solo drum influencer, and maybe the biggest influencer of all, and a lot of it is down to his "wow factor". But we could both name youtubers who are on the "less flashy" side who have bigger audiences than I do, and one who IS a flashy player, who I think can credit his humor and filmmaking style more than his flashiness. IN any case, I'm working toward being more of a chopper - to the degree it comports with my voice - not necessarily because it will increase my influence, but just because I intrinsically want to play like that.
@@8020drummer i was talking to the original commenter LOL. its not as cut and dry as i made it sound. there are obviously a lot of other ways of standing out as you mentioned. you for example are a great educator, some guys have incredibly deep pocket others have a unique vibe etc.
our original commenter just plays along to tracks. I was mainly trying to say that if you're just trying to get noticed playing along to stuff being awe-inspiringly good is the way to do it. even that isn't just flashiness. probably wasn't a good word but whatever
@@efafe4972 was this reply directed to me and my post or to Nate? If it was directed to me I appreciate the comment. My intent is not to be the new wow guy on the web with tons of flashy chops. I think my focus is more on showing the web that a 63 year old guy can play a lot of music from big band to broadway to pop and rock. I play charts I transcribe note for note and just try to perform it musically. Not because I think playing something from Wicked or the Woody Herman will make me an internet sensation, but might help someone looking for a well rounded solid drummer for any number of projects. If your comment was directed at Nate, I think he is a pretty flashy player who does things I definitely can’t do. He put a lot of time in the woodshed to master a lot of control on the kit which I am sure translates into him sounding musical on gigs. At my age I am looking to be the best player I can be, but realize the likely hood of me taking over the drum chair for Kansas, the Big Phat Band or a national Broadway tour of something isn’t real likely.
Here’s the thing: someone’s 10K hours who is super talented does not equal a less talented person’s 10K hours. Case in point: I know drummers who have progressed a lot and now are crushing, but who had their basic pocket and groove and speed at a very young age. They never had to spend hours working on microtime or single stroke technique. They “naturally” had the ear-hand-foot coordination to play on time and in the pocket - it comes out the way they hear it in their head. So every hour I’m spending on micro time and groove, they’re working on something else with time and groove as givens. Also, they can be away from the instrument for months or years due to illness or personal issues, but whenever they sit down, cold, having not touched a drumstick in forever, they are annoyingly more musical, creative, and play with crushingly good pocket than most drummers who have been practicing that whole time. Also check out Aron the Bassist or Miles the Music Kid - they haven’t even been alive 10K hours.
It took me a while to catch on what was happening with those flights lol, 🤣 1st time watcher subscribed, much love
awesome video, thanks for sharing serious research and for the advice!
Brilliant video Nate. The right video for me a week before my 2 back to back auditions
Talent is how much you're into whatever it is you're doing that makes you invest the time to master it.
I'm currently on a mission. I do 4 hrs a day 2 in the morning and 2 in the afternoon 6 days a week. My son is 4 years old. The way I see it, when he is a teenager I will be a focking beast behind the kit!!! #cantstopwontstop
You are the best man. Loved the video. Your work is beautiful
There’s no denying natural talent but it’s hard not to notice how much Nathaniel has improved since he began 80/20……a lot…
"But I love to play"! is the same as, but I love archeology, but I love science, but I love driving, I think we know what we love and that's where talent comes in. It's meant to be.
Another great video! Two things come to mind. If you're in music school at a young age, you're probably enrolled full time for at least 2-3 years. In that environment, you're going to take it very seriously, practice the study material, get pushed along by your teachers, other students and participate in friendly (or not ) competition with other students. All these are a formula for getting better QUICKLY. The other thought is, unless you are truly practicing what is difficult, what you are struggling with instead of just playing what you already know and are good at, then you aren't really practicing. If you play for an hour but only struggle with new licks or meters for 10 minutes, then you've only put in 10 minutes of practice. This is advice often repeated by famous drummers.
Dude GREAT video. I was a hack on drums for like 4 years no books no lessons, just desire to play, and needless to say I sucked. Then after about 14 years of not playing a drummer friend prodigy type passes away, he was always an inspiration and it really hit me when he passed so I room up the drums again and took lessons and got All the books, I've been playing about 11 years now (the rightvway or better way ) and have improved drastically BUT I don't think I'm that good
I have passion, been in 3 bands over the last 11 years, and was blessed to be with incredible musicians that made me feel small due to their talents.
I say all that to say this, I believe in the 10,000 hour rule in drums BUT ONLY IF DONE THE RIGHT WAY. meaning once you grasp some element on the drums YOU MUST MOVE ON TO SOMETHING THAT YOU CANNOT DO, OR ARE NOT COMFORTABLE WITH. If you just play to cover songs and not explore other intricacies in timely manners, you will need 25,000 hours to grow.
I believe that's my down fall for instance I've been practicing odd timing FINALLY this year I've been doing 5 over 4 drills for like 7 months straight, my OCD will not let me move on I tell myself "well as long as you feel improvement stay here until you master it" and I think that's a good mindset only to a degree, I think my OCD just NEVER LETS ME FEEL THAT I FINALLY LEARNED A NEW ASPECT OF THE DRUMS WELL ENOUGH TO MOVE ON TO SOMETHING I CANNIT DO.
So in short due to my never feeling comfortable of mastering a certain aspect of the drums I take FOREVER to move on to a new dimension.
Again though I definitely improve, it's just that my OCD in not letting myself "move on to the next impossible task of drumming" ie: playing open hand, or Jazz, or getting truly fluid on the Tom's, I will stagnate nit due to effort (I practice something 2 hours a day religiously) it's just that I should be waaaay better for 11 years of doing that, but again OCD will not let me move on so I think my formula will be 25-30,000 hours til I become really legit. Which in that case I'll be 65 but that's ok I guess.
Anyway Great video brother Love your skills your honest conversation and entertaining low key yet funny as hell humor.. 😄
Two points:
1. the students in music school are there specifically to play music for 6-8 hours a day. If you are learning to play an instrument as a hobby but you have a job/family/life/responsibilities it is gonna be harder for you to be as dedicated.
2. are you learning the thing so that you can be the best elite player in the world and your name will go down in history? or are you learning so you can have fun and have a satisfying and fulfilling hobby? being creative can be its own reward
Great insight! I'm a mature drummer, dedicated for 35years, way over 10,000 hrs, not just a drummer, as a full blown career artist these days, still over the 10k in this guise. Luck also plays a part, in connecting with other ppl, discovery/collab mode etc, the thrill of getting into the top/mid tier is also a huge motivator, some play for years without recognition, then fade away, when others stay with it and eventually the right situ presents itself and boom! Luck and intuition both have to find you working though..
I played drums from Middle school though a little after high school ended up quitting, felt like I got the wall and didn't know how to progress, couldn't find inspiration to practice. Then 8 or so years later picked it back up it's never felt better to play and progress with access to CZcams, really glad I didn't quit for good.
80/20. I love this Siberino master drummer. He's my. Favorite. He's the reigning BEAST. IM 69 years old play nearly every day. You're awesome 👍😎👍😎 too. I adore you're complete take on drums. Wide and deep. Keep up the work. You're awesome
Very interesting and helpful. Love the nerdy element.
This was awesome motivation!
Thanks man :)
OK, admittedly I am a Bassplayer (with quite some time behind the drums) and I started playing bass with about 17. Back then practice was all I had, since I was living away from home and family in another town attending school, so I usually sat down for at least 4 hour a day for two years, thus I became a pretty decent bass player. Later I was playing in bands for almost two decades. Not professionally, mind you, but very passionately. Practice time went down, but the recording of my original songs was better practice then doodling around on my instrument. Then, at around 2008 or so, my last band broke up and I wasn’t in the mood for music for another decade. A little before Corona, in 2018 I came back to recording and recognised on thing: I couldn’t play as versatile anymore, because aside from the occasional 30 min. of practise, I lost much of my muscle-memory. That said, though, one thing I did improve on tremendously, was time and feel! I have a lot more feel to my playing now, being 59, than way back when I was in my Twens. And, as mentioned, my timing is much more precise today than it used to be. TO me personally that means, don’t give up, since there are many, many ways of »being good« when it comes to playing music. My drumming today sucks ((kinda) muscle memory, remember?)) but again, I play much better into the pocket today. My fills are simpler, I play more relaxed, less stressed and I now enjoy drumming a lot more. Oh, and as an illustrator by profession, I learned one thing very early on: »art is 99% practise and 1% talent.« ;-)
I probably have 10k in but I've been at it 30 years. I am definitely not an expert or an elite. I still get paid for what I love. There isn't any need to compare myself to anybody else. I'll do what I do and the other guy can do what he does. As long as people are enjoying what you're doing it's all good.
Thanks for the motivation!! Greetings from Barcelona
Solid. Every artist can appreciate this, it speaks to our soul, the vulnerable side as well as the aspirational side.
Really enjoy your honest content, 80/20!
I’m lazy. I’ve been playing for 24 years. I’m in a very active cover band, I practice…”practice” maybe 25 minutes per day then the weekly band practice. And I haven’t gotten better in years. I even signed up to your website. Paid a fee. Then never sent a video to you and never logged in again. I’ve done that Drum Better Daily with Stephen. I’ve done it with Jared, Dave and the crew at Drumeo. I’ve spent so much money just to be LAZY. Talented? Not me. Driven? …not me. I want to be good so bad but not bad enough to put in the time. Lol WTF is my problem? Nate, this was a great video. I’ve been following you on here for probably 5 or 6 years. You’ve always been honest about your journey and about your playing and skill level. You’re a great drummer. You’re greater than you give yourself credit for. You, sir, are talented. But you built and chiseled it from a hunk if stone. You invented your own talent by being awesome. Maybe I should stop being not awesome and start being more like you. Thanks dude.
Seriously, you don't know what a real practice feels like until you would kick your butt to do a true 3 or 4 hours of drumming, straight, no pause to the toilet or even opening your phone. Lazyness comes with technologies and easy dopamine doze from screen. It's easier to drum for hours when you have a place to do it without bothering people, and when technologies wasn't at this level like today. Drumeo for exemple, and video of teachers, are seeking a way to make money with drumming and the only one that really care about your drumming is you. If you don't go on drums for hours, at least one time in your life, that's because it's just some entertainment, and not true passion from your guts.
@@stephanmarcouxdrums4877 lol I mean I play drums 3 hours straight, 3 sets per gig, multiple times monthly because I’m in a cover band that won’t stop booking gigs lol. I truly appreciate your long winded rant, though.
@@stephanmarcouxdrums4877 so I was a bit offput by your comment so I went to your channel. You are an okay drummer. I mean…you and I are probably on the same level. You’re probably slightly more advanced. How long have you been playing? Doesn’t strike me as the playing of a person who spends 3 hours a day practicing drums. You seem like a low to mid level intermediate player. From what I’ve watched. So…in order for your walk to match your talk, quit talking and get to walking, fella.
The difference in my opinion is passion. Some just have more passion for the instrument and progress quicker. Thank you for the videos brother.
largely agree. My thesis, I guess, is that passion is a big component of what we call "talent"
Talent can definitely help initially, as you said. A feeling of competence and progression is a good intrinsic motivator according to Self Determination Theory.Ryan, R. M., & Deci, E. L. (2000). Self-determination theory and the facilitation of intrinsic motivation, social development, and well-being. American Psychologist, 55(1), 68-78.
*It took me time, but I learned not to have any expectations regarding results, I don't focus on them anymore. I go, sit, practice and that's what I focus on. The result is going to come and the goal is going to be achieved. When? Don't know, as long as I practice, I will get there.*
Hah! I was going to mention "Outliers" even before you got there - but for a different reason. If you read the first chapter about young developing hockey players, you can see that there are structural barriers and gates that dictate what's available to upcoming talent. Likewise, at least in my experience, those kind of breaks came to an otherwise average talent level player. I was a novice drummer, but hanging around a drum shop, 2-3 hours every day. I happened to be there when the sales guy gets a call. "No, sorry, I can't...hey hold on a sec..." he asks me if I could sub for a country band the next night. (I'm not even a country fan!) Of course I said "yes!" Then I panicked. I was "good enough" to do about 5-6 gigs with this band. A few years later, I auditioned for one of the biggest rock bands in my metro area. It turns out my "country chops" is what got me the gig. We ended up moving to New York City and worked with some of the biggest names in the business.
Basically, I'd say 10,000 hours works because, during that time, you're bound to create other opportunities that (hopefully) demand more of your talent. And part of your skillset is rising to the occasion.
Fast forward about 20 years, and I hadn't touched a drum kit in over a decade. One brief phone call from an old friend, and it turns to a local gig, which turns into a regional act. With all of the CZcams videos out there, watching elite drummers is once again extremely intimidating. I hooked up with a well-regarded drum teacher who immediately told me "don't forget to enjoy where you're at." That was a huge key. And so now, it's back to the pads, and progress is slow, but I measure it, and it's forward. One thing's for certain. I'm not getting worse.
The key words, passion, interest, drive, support. These are the attributes that make you want and need to be successful at everything you do.
The number one predictor of positive results in music, is the love of music. If you love it you’ll do the work. And it you truly love it at some point, you’ll stop comparing your talent to others and start creating art.
But isn’t that talent? Isn’t that what it feels like to have natural affinity? Also, I’m sick of the “don’t compare yourself to others” meme, because it’s overly simplistic. Sure, there are a lot of ways to be good, but there’s also a clear skills gradient. Think American idol. The contestants who didn’t make it on the show weren’t dropped because they had some super deep unique style. They mostly sucked.
@@8020drummer uh, I disagree. Talent as commonly understood, comes from natural gifting. How much someone loves music is mutually exclusive to natural gifting. Any music teacher (myself included) has stories of the kid with little natural ability who couldn’t count to 4 without falling off their chair who worked their tail off and learned to make music. If you call the love of music a talent, than sure. But I’m talking about a predictor of success in making quality music. Every teacher has stories of the kid with all the talent in the world and no drive. And I hear ya about the “don’t compare” thing…..it is overly simplistic. But I was referring to the life and process of someone who becomes an artist. They all have heroes they mimic an then eventually process that into their voice. And BTW, I love your channel!
I also found those books really motivating ("Peak" is Ericson's book, recommended). In the end though, there is talent, or at least genetics, that is inescapable. Practice is hugely important, but you need to be motivated, have the energy and physical health, sleep well, and be smart enough to practice properly. Just noodling around or playing songs that are easy for you doesn't count. Some innate ability also keeps you motivated in early days when you are first starting. In the end though, I'd agree that most people can get "really good" through force of will - put in the time.
Talent isn't a lie, but it's not enough. Sort of.
Case in point: me.
1. I used to play guitar, and had a little bit of talent, but I found I had to work hard to develop chops and play the things I had in my mind.
2. I've been doing visual art a lot longer, and it comes easy to me. I don't like to say I am talented, but other people have used that term to describe me.
The key element here is vision and drive/determination. When you are talented at something, it doesn't feel like "work" or exercise, but if you are talented without a vision, it doesn't add up to much. When you aren't talented the drive feels like work, but what makes the work worth it is the vision.
Luckily I feel like I have a purpose or vision in doing my visual art. Unfortunately I didn't have that with music. However, I am a better person for having gained a formidable understanding of how music works, and now I am making those skills (little that I have) to make soundtracks for my videos. I use what I have... the vision is what matters.You called it passion.
You are right.
It's much more complicated than these sound bites can grasp.
The reality is that human beings are highly more variable than a simple Gaussian distribution would suggest, but that is the easiest way to visualize, and so we do.
I know this is done with IQ.
They have to "normalize" the data to give it that smooth curve.
In reality, there are far more outliers than we realize (less people in the middle).
This is not how we want to think of things, but it's just the way it is.
Some people are insanely good at things, and many have no chance of ever bridging that gap.
Sadly, it goes against the "you can be anything you want" mantra that has been pushed into us since preschool
By the way, I'm like you...
Visual arts come easy, music, not as much.
But finally something clicked in drumming years ago where I felt a huge boost and at least jamming to my favorite music got much easier.
And what did I choose to do?
.....Learn guitar, lol!
Now that's the thing I'm pouring time into because i didn't want to live without melody under my fingers.
But I've got no idea if I'll ever be good enough to turn it into anything serious...
The hope is to eventually have my own audio visual art of some kind, where i can play to my own video creations
Great video. Talent is absolutely real and a key, but the necessary work is the determining factor of how good someone gets. At music uni 25 years ago, there were several of us drummers putting in the same amount of practice (5h a day), but we were not developing and improving at the same rate. The key difference being the talent.
For anyone to claim or believe that any person can achieve the greatest levels in anything, regardless of their natural inclination, just by practicing and repetition is either delusional or dishonest.
Lub ya man...been watching for years. I have to say, we are not just who we are in this moment; rather, we are a sum of all our experience. That is to say, this life is an opportunity to make the MOST of it and that "experience" travels with you. Everything you do in this life is carried over.
Honestly, if that was not the case and this is all there is...why not just party, pillage and go wild. It's because we KNOW innately to do the "right" thing. The goal is to overcome our animalistic instincts and evolve spiritually, intellectually and emotionally. We subconsciously know this to be true. For those who are in synch with life's mission, pursue greatness in everything that they do.
Some folks are old spirits who have come a long way and others are just figuring it out. As long as you are open to learning, accepting, growing and are selfless...you will get there in time. The magic come when you stop thinking you are "Just You" and realize you are anything and everything you imagine yourself to be.
I started out WAAAY worse than almost everyone I know. But, I have one thing most of them don't ... and that is a compulsive drive/ passion. I just DON'T give up. I practice 5-6 hours a day, and I JUST.DON'T. STOP. So what i lack in talent, I make up with an insatiable drive to be as good as I think that I can be. I also don't limit myself.. I see no reason why I can't be as good as any other drummer in the world. I don't think I'm better than anyone else, but I also don't think anyone else is better than me. (( I do realize that there are people better than me at certain things pertaining to drumming, but my point is that I feel there are things that I'm good at that will balance it out)
It has taken me years of doubt, crying, etc. I had trouble with clean rudiments for YEARS. maybe a a talented person would pick that up in months, but it took me years of practice. The times where I hated myself, I learned to use that to go back to the basics.
I truly think that if you lack talent, you can blur the line with obsession/ drive/passion.
Also, you can practice 10,000 hours, but if half of those hours you're thinking of something else, than you're wasting a lot of that time. You need to be driven to the point where you're listening to every single hit, and you're looking at every single movement.. and you're critical of everything single thing you do. It takes THAT to beat talent. I believe someone with passion can be better than anyone born with talent, because the passionate person will work harder. PERIOD!
Tony Williams is a pure example of talent. He was 17 when he played with Miles. What we call talent could also be called luck. They are lucky to have been born at the time and place they were. Lucky to have a work ethic and the ability to focus at a high level. The attributes aren't so obviously physical but the elite musicians could have certain tendon or muscular structures that give them a slight advantage.
Innate talent definitely exists. We see virtuosos of every form overtaking their peers decades older and more practiced then them.
When i first started playing, I was maybe 14 and rarely practiced. Me and my pals were getting into music and wanted to do the local battle of the bands (we never even played or found a singer, but I was featured by a salon on the webapage for the contest for my elaboate sliky hair). But I had a big basement, a parent who'd buy me a kit because they always eished they did as a kid, literally no idea of how to play even a simple beat, and sadly a lifelong chronic pain condition that only ended up getting piled up with new problems.
After my friends and i drifted apart and they lost interest in playing, I got involved in the underground scene nearby me, and it inspired me to play more. I jammed with songs i liked and grew a bit, but then i moved and haven't had a place to set up my kit in a while.
Then i got a cheaper e-kit that was frustratingly limiting, and my medical problems got worse. But I used my contacts from some great tourists drummers I know whove played in some bigger bands to study at shows and ask for pointers, used CZcams videos to slowly work on rudiments and ideas i never knew existed, and used my disabilities and simple kit as a way to learn workarounds or focus on what I could do.
Shortly after getting my e-kit, I went to a small show where one of my favorite drummers was playing some of his solo guitar and vox stuff, and an admittedly rude (i was uncharacteristically drunk) comment landed me on the opening song for the headliner with just a snare. No idea what the song was or his music, just a snare and hi-hat stand with a tambourine on it it, and it went surprisingly well without losing the beat and even fitting in some fills and tricks I thought id be afraid to try.
Now im doubling down on practice for about 6 months, playing music outside genres i even listen to, focusing more on certain techniques, and even starting to form a band.
I have a long way to go, but i see videos like "practicing daily for two years with lessons" and im genuinely shocked when i think "I could do that and so much more."
I have my off days, but i played a few songs at an unrehearsed tribute for a passed friend, including three of us on as standing basses and toms - something ive never remotely tried - as well as three songs with just a vocalist thats never performed before and had half-lost their voice. All on a foreign kit, which felt odd after only playing an e-kit for about a year. And there were genuine compliments from musicians i admire that used to be in the actual band, as well as people who's musical opinions i really respect.
If i can do it, almost anyone can. Turn your weaknesses into strengths, practice what you can, and keep branching out. Im a long way from some of the better drummers, but also pleasantly suprised when i hear a popular rock somg i haven't heard in a few years and focus on the drums to think "thats it, there was barely anything to that and have sold out atenas for decades." Look at ACDC; very similar in almost every song while being generally simple, but so iconic and powerful by playing to his strengths to the point that nobody does that kind of drumming the same.
Good luck to everyone, and keep going. Even with the simplest of percussion setups you can make something amazing and unique. Don't get caught up comparing yourself or thinking you're not close enough to get it any time soon; there's always something new to learn or a new perspective that can set you apart.
'...if I was smart enough, but instead I just play the drums'. ( I dig the small smile as you say that). That sentence is a corollary to the topic at hand. 'Smartness' and 'talent', and the myriad environmental and genetic factors at play in both.
I worked my butt off for six months for the first segment of a recording session last month. Most days I put in 3-5 hours, but a couple of weeks prior I had that sinking feeling because one important aspect of my playing wasn't going to cut it and sure enough, those abilities were entirely absent. I couldn't play what I knew the songs needed (double kick speed + power). So I subsequently swore off the drums entirely for over two weeks and rediscovered the guitar. Came back to the kit and not only have my issues melted away, but I'm nailing those tempos and even exceeding them with ALL the power! So lesson learned. I resolve to practise less, Regularly perhaps, but significantly less then I was. Guess the point here is over-practice can actually waste your time and over-obsessing about practice could eventually cause a loss of interest entirely. It's certainly an important topic to think about. For the record I've probably doubled the 10,000 hours over...yeah..some decades :)
google "post hoc ergo propter hoc" ;)
@@8020drummer I understand your point Nate, however this isn't the first time I've noticed my playing improve by lowering the bar, just that little bit.
@@8020drummer Oh, this is definitely a real phenomenon, and can be fairly quantitative too when you're grinding away forever to reach a certain tempo without progress, step away for a week, and proceed to crush it. I've absolutely experienced that enough times myself.
What I'm not sure about is whether it's the act of stepping away from practicing drums altogether that causes the rapid growth, or stepping away from grinding that one particular thing. I suspect it's the later. I'm not sure if a longer period of fruitless grinding leads to a better return after the break. I'm also not sure if there's a way to 'cure' the grind without taking a break. Maybe if you replaced the break with deliberate low tempo practice that is focused on form rather than speed you would end up even faster when you shift gears back to speed.
Probably worth noting that I don't experience this much at all anymore. Possibly because I can feel the plateau coming and take corrective action before arriving at that futile place. Or possibly because I tend to grind a dozen or so things at a time now rather than one or two.
In any case whenever you feel like you aren't making progress despite putting in a lot of effort, you need to change things up.
Spaced repetition...
@@grooveroid you’re a really good liar
There is never a shortage of info on the importance of practice and time practicing. However, it seems to me, many drummers forget about how physical the instrument is. So, in my humble opinion, working on your physical strength is super important to get better at playing it. Do these complex compound body movements and then notice how coordination and independence are easier to achieve. Do these movements explosively and train those fast twitch muscle fibers to be able to fly over the kit while pulling off different accents and patterns at high speed, and all that without breaking any sweat. Also note that these fast twitch fibers die off first (as opposed to slow-twitch fibers) as we age unless they are taken care of, so, if you are not super young and/or physical, you can invest there to improve your health, longevity, and your drum skills :) Do train your grip strength and attain amazing finger/Moeller and whatnot hand technique. Maybe a bit unconventional, but seems like working out maybe be the way to kill several birds with a single stone.
I think you should make a follow up video on efficiency of practice time. We used to say, "practice makes permanent." If you practice wrong for 10k hours, you'd still be a chump, but practicing less than 10k hours effectively will get you beyond what some others can do in a lifetime.
Fo sho
Yes we all need to practice a lot… but aptitude is a real thing… & environment is a SIGNIFICANT factor… I often ask students what kind of music their parents listen to…
The ability to put in larger numbers of hours of deliberate practice is a talent. There is variability in how much a person can practice, how effectively that practice is and how long they can sustain that practice. It makes no sense to say to somebody "all you need is more deliberate practice" if they are already at the limit of how much they can practice already.
I started late, at 15, but man, the obsession drove it for 10 years. There was nothing else I liked better than practicing and playing.
It has changed since then. Still play and practice new shit, but there isn't much new shit. I know my limitations, and still try to surpass them.
I guess when that stops, I'll be done.
I see this from sort of an opposite perspective - when you meet someone who has worked and worked for years, but never progresses. I've known guys who worked their asses off, but from the start on some level there was always some sort of key intuition just missing. It didn't matter how you explain to them, mentor them, challenge them, give them great tips, there just seems to be some fundamental level where their brains and body just didn't "get it" - beyond that, I don't know how much "talent" (if it exists) compares to the work, but some people do seem to just completely miss the "knack" for certain things no matter how hard they try.
Siberiano is right, but he puts the problem in a very simplistic way, it`s not about only the practice but how you were raised. I think this is more important than the practice itself. If you were taught how to deal with frustration, if you got positive feedback on your craft, if you were let to experiment and choose yourself what instrument you`d like to play, and even with all of these if you were not exposed to a vast variety of music all the practice in the world would only make you a good player but not a great artist. Again, practice is 50% at best. For me, talent is all these things combined minus the practice.
I highly recommend checking out (former Lamb Of God drummer) Chris Adler's performance at the Modern Drummer Music Festival in 2005. There is a video of it on CZcams. What made it interesting was the portion where he spoke to the audience. He was very humble in his assessment of his own natural ability, but he touched on the most important part about playing drums: THEY'RE FUN!
Quality of Practice Time > Quantity of Practice Time
Most results come from self awareness and being in the zone rather than noodling and f'ing around.
The other thing is that practice without feedback is useless. How will you know if you're getting better if you have no feedback?
Feedback comes from either recording yourself and growing from your mishaps and mistakes and critiquing yourself, or having someone watch you and give you critiques.
To discuss Talent, i remember in Music Education class at university where we talked about how the idea of "naturally talented' doesn't really exist.
Talent is nurtured, developed, and grown. Someone can be drawn to or have a knack for something but that usually has more to do with their sociological upbringing and exposure to music.
Always enjoy your take on this subject Nate.
I started lessons at age 59 (62 now) as a I finally had the time in my career to do so. I practice, deliberately, one hour to ninety minutes a day and even under the tutelage of a great instructor things come VERY slowly.
My point? I strongly believe that there is something to the idea of innate talent. If not, how did any number of great artists become very good at a young age? They simply had not been alive enough to have put in the grind for decades. Heck, the Beatles might have been playing every night at the Star Club in Hamburg, but they were only there two or three times for ninety day contracts. It wasn't like they had done it for seven years.
IDK...I guess i just like the idea of admiring those with that extra spark.
Btw, not to cast shade on Siberiano, but i don't quite get it. He is a muscled out gent that thrashes on the kit like a speed demon. I simply don't understand what he is doing. I would MUCH prefer to have the musicality of John Densmore playing on Door's The End as his playing has a lyrical quality about it. Am i missing something with the speed metal stuff? Is that the same talent as Clyde Stubblefield (sp?)?
One other thing. I am glad you mentioned The Sports Gene by David Epstein. I know there have been a lot of takeaways from this work, but for me it reinforced the idea that in athletics some people simply do have an edge.
For example, there are very serious runners who have dedicated their young lives to running a good marathon and yet in NYC or Boston "only" can log a 2:25. I simply could not look at them in the face and tell them that they simply did not want it badly enough and should have worked harder. They would be an insult to the solid work they did. But alas that is athletics and not playing the drums as indicated by the different body type drummers you showed!
Keep up the great videos!
Thanks for this video!
Your feel here. Is.... Perfection. Love the Byzantz cymbals. My latest favorite
It all factors in. Appreciation or love for music, encouragement, talent, practice, proper equipment, mentoring, technique, playing with others (below, equal to and above your level)… they all make and break musicians.
Our capabilities, spanning diverse domains like mathematics, musicality, and athleticism, are undeniably influenced by our genetic inheritance. Whether it's the numerical aptitude to solve complex equations, the harmonious talent to compose melodies, or the physical prowess to excel in sports, our genetic makeup plays a significant role in shaping these abilities.
Moreover, the intricate interplay between our genes and environment molds our traits. While genetics provide the foundational blueprint, environmental factors such as upbringing, education, and experiences also contribute to the development and expression of our abilities.
Indeed, it's challenging to pinpoint any aspect of human behavior or skill that doesn't bear the imprint of our genetic composition. From cognitive functions to personality traits, genetics intertwines with every facet of our being, enriching the tapestry of human diversity and potential.
Talent is something everyone can develop, but your innate advantages will not matter if your emotions in your art aren't surfaced enough. Your truly developed love of the art will be able to dissolve your egoic blockages that may be stopping you from becoming a great professional in your own way- like Nate and Estepario!
I am a teacher and this is a subject that I have always been interested in. I do believe that there is something called talent. But it is not what propels anyone to be where they want to be. I believe it’s hours of hard work. At the same time people that have some innate talent in there career path may get to the end result a little quicker. I heard an art professor tell a student that the art hanging on the fine arts wall was 10% talent 90% study and hard work.
So you and some people in comments def touched on this but I think talent exists, it's more of an aptitude towards learning than a technical thing. Like we all suck the first time we pick up our instrument but a talented person is going to gravitate naturally towards finding the right details to focus on and have a clearer mental path towards reaching what they're trying to achieve, thus getting there faster.
This can be offset for the "less talented" person with more time spent practicing or a good instructor and put everyone who wants it enough in the same ballpark over the course of many years to the point the differences are negligible and mostly come down to taste. But I still feel like the talent is in the vision and the ability to get from A to B with ease rather than one person develops muscle memory faster than someone else.
Was that the CrashBox intro static at the beginning??
As talent is just natural ability, there are levels of natural ability, which in terms of being a drummer, is both our physical abilities, manual dexterity, coordination, etc and our mental abilities from being able to feel the pulse, keeping solid time, understanding rhythm, etc. Many abilities need to be present to be developed through deliberate practice and there ranges of those abilities in the general population. Also, the "deliberate" part of deliberate practice is paramount to success. What and how one practices is just as important as how much. When I figured that out, my development increased not just much faster but also more broadly across a range of abilities.
Love the long lengthy tube talk!….
Research suggests that genetic factors play a significant role in determining a person’s musical abilities. While environmental factors (such as exposure to music, training, and cultural context) also contribute, genetics can influence various aspects of musical aptitude.
The heritability of musical abilities (i.e., the proportion of variation attributed to genetic factors) varies across different musical skills. Some studies estimate that genes may account for approximately 40-50% of the variation in musical aptitude.
Which studies? Link them
@@8020drummer Medical geneticist Irma Järvelä of the University of Helsinki and her colleagues analyzed 224 family members who either were themselves, or were related to, professional musicians or active amateurs. The subjects were given standard tests of musical aptitude, such as the ability to discern differences in the pitch or duration of two tones. Järvelä found an overall heritability of nearly 50 percent. That is, nature rather than nurture accounted for almost half the observed differences in aptitude, helping explain why some subjects with no musical training scored at a professional level.
@@brandonrox10 interesting. How do strictly defined were the family relations? How much do we think the definitions of musical aptitude the scientists chose generalize to other forms of musical aptitude. How were the differences in skill between and among the “professional and amateur” family members accounted for such that the researchers were sure they were what an audition committee would consider above average. What were the P value and confidence intervals for this study of only 224 people. What I’m getting at is how do we know the correlations weren’t either (1) coincidence, (2) artifacts of stretching the definitions of skill on either end, or (3) environmentally transmitted rather than genetically. Bear in mind, I Agree with the conclusion. But if that’s the best you’ve got I wouldn’t bet a lot of money unless it’s replicated in a lot of places 😅😅
I've read almost everything out there about deliberate practice. Pop and hard science. Eat well, sleep well, train focused, make as many quality repetitions as you can, be inspired and have the best coach/es you can. Of course there are other variables out of our hands, like quality support from our caregivers and people around us or our genetic make up, but who cares! Keep practicing.
Strength, dexterity, flexibility all factors, good rest and diet help to. Practice is a must either way, playing live helps a lot.
Success in any endeavour usually comes from two factors - 1) an opportunity to work hard, 2) actually doing the work - many people have incredible opportunities but fail to put the necessary work in. Others have an incredible work ethic and want to work hard, but don't have the opportunities ... Also everyone has an aptitude, things they are naturally good at (which could replace the word talent or gift - think of pilots going for an aptitude test to see if the person's brain is wired in the way conducive to flight training) ... if someone doesn't have the aptitude for a particular skill, doesn't mean they can't be successful at it, it means they will need to work harder than someone with the aptitude for that skill ... if you have someone with the aptitude, and they have a great opportunity, and they put all the time, work and effort in, that is a force to be reckoned with!! 💪
Siberiano is the one drummer I can't watch, he makes me irrationally angry, like watching a dude casually fly like a bird while telling you the only reason you can't is because you haven't tried hard enough. I'm 47, I've probably done 20k hours behind the kit at this point but I never got good. Of course practice is important but unless Siberiano has literally put in double the hours of everyone else, there must be more to his playing than just practice.
no offense, but I could almost *guarantee* you haven't done 20k hours of *deliberate practice* behind the kit. Or else you're like a 3 sigma outlier. I think people think they have for a few reasons:
-gigs, which aren't the same as deliberate practice
-practice with long periods of interruption
-they're actually just overestimating it
Big disclaimer - I could be wrong. But I'd encourage you to actually pull out a piece of paper (which can be virtual) and try to calculate how many hours of deliberate, high-quality practice you've actually put in. I did this in my 20s and it was like a quarter what I'd assumed it was.
@@8020drummer Practice with long periods of interruption are great imo. Your mind and body uses that time to digest and internalize the things you're working on. Especially for independence, four hours or practice over the course of two days can go a lot further than four contiguous hours. Of course, more hours are generally more better, but if we're keeping the number of hours constant anyway, the less contiguous hours win more often than not.
@@JeffGraw when I said "long periods of time" I was talking about years. I've had many students who would practice for a few months, then let it fall by the wayside for years.
@@8020drummer Fair enough, that makes sense. I'm glad we expanded on that, since an onlooker could misinterpret and think "I should avoid small breaks."
Quality of practice is more important than quantity of practice
Great video, thanks for sharing this! Have you heard of S.M.A.R.T goals? It's an Acronym for Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Relevant, and Time-Bound. For example:
Specific: learn a standard rock beat
Measurable: play 4 measures at 80bpm w/o errors
Achievable: yes - this is not too advanced for where I'm at on my drumming journey
Relevant: yes - I want to play rock beats
Time-Bound: 20 hours or my Friday
Once this goal is met, you create a new goal that build off of it. I use this in many areas including my drumming. I've used it to break down my drumming journey into smaller, bit sized achievements, which build off of the previous goal. And completing more smaller goals, fuels the next goal especially when it gets tough.
Some days I feel like I can play anything. Other days not so much. Usually when Im stressed or tired. I think overall health is an element.
it also could mean you're on the right track but it just requires a little more time
It seems to me that talents like drumming are multi faceted.
Having an ear for differentiating fine differences in pitch and rhythm is important for any instrument. But so is having the fine motor skills to work the instrument easily.
Being able to easily generate creative ideas could be helpful in some cases, but in others, the ability to focus and stay on track would be better in others.
Then there is having the ability to woodshed on your own, without losing your mind. Many are most fulfilled working with and through others.
Which is another important personality trait to have.
And all these skills are inborn. Some people just are born with better motor skills, for example.
And people are going to want to do, and stick with, and find the most fulfillment, in what they are naturally good at. And will most likely be successful at.
But it’s not one thing alone that defines talent, or success, with an instrument or anything. Imho.
I couldn't agree more with you more. Too much writing to explain it all but one thing that can't be argued is that we are not all born clones beginning from the same starting point. For drumming, innate talent is about imagination, focus and drive. That's the "knack" as you put it but it doesn't shortcut putting in the work even for the talented. The rest of us humans just have to put in the hard work to develop our abilities to reach our goals. One thing talent does not define is success. That's a whole other ball of wax.
Human beings are just highly variable, unfortunately for many of us.
Gaussian distributions like the curve you showed are not how we are actually distributed.
I know with IQ, for example, there are many more outliers and less people in the middle.
But we normalize the distribution because it's more PC, and in line with the "you can be whatever you set your mind to" mantra we are fed since preschool.
In reality, some people are just insanely intelligent, and many aren't even close to the middle and will never have that kind of ability no matter what they do with their time.
If this is true for brain power as well as physical abilities, then it's certainly going to apply to everything in between.
But the good news is, IMHO, that creativity is something much harder to quantify, this is crucial to anything that involves the arts or music.
We don't just want to watch robots with chops, we want to see people who can make us feel something.
A drummer watching other drummers is likely to feel something much more based on talent than the average person, who is going to feel something much more closely related to the overall fit to the rest of the music.
Ever notice that in a lot of our favorite songs growing up that the drums are just basic?
People like Ringo get a lot of criticism, but the Beatles made some of the best songs of all time and rarely does anyone say they needed better drumming (unless it's a drummer saying it).
I would also bet that a lot of these super talented drummers, if sat down next to each other, would all be able to play stuff that the others couldn't.
In other words, there's just a natural piece of "you" that develops over time and can't be imitated.
This is like how guitar players say "it's all in the fingers" because even playing the same notes, there's always a quality of the individual that can't be copied.
Even when it feels like a struggle to make progress, we are developing that unique style that will eventually define us.
I'd encourage everyone to keep at their creative endeavors, although NONE OF US know where the world is going.
Things are changing so rapidly right now with technology that the music industry is being overturned as we speak. So is every creative field.
But humans are what makes art valuable, so we should hold on to that.
My guess is that our entire perception of what is valued and why is going to have to be rewritten.
And we as artists SHOULD NOT GIVE UP THE FIGHT!
There is already an AI that can write and play better drum licks than most of us ever will.... but will we value that?
Or is it better to value music because there was human being who lived and suffered and persevered and became inspired all behind it?
To me, the answer is obvious!
yk this really reminds me of what guru (of gangstarr, rip) said, you need talent to rap and i always believed that when i was 15 and heard that. you need something to be able to talk about
I recognize that Nate Smith pocket at 5:40, nice...
Practicing is essential, but it often gets forgotten that the talents we all recognize as the best were thst way by their very early 20's. There IS something more than practice, the evidence is everywhere...it may be as simple as starting early.
I think there are more talented people in any field than the average person but you shouldn’t be discouraged to get better at it. I played drums in a punk band in my early teens and just got back into it at 43. I can’t explain how much its improved my life to pick it back up. I guess what I’m saying is just enjoy drumming. You don’t have to be the best but keep trying to improve every day and HAVE FUN
Great video my bro
What about little johnny who at age 4 or some stoopid age rocks up and plays chopin (i know instrument difference) better than those who put in the hours? Or is that where being a prodigy comes into play?
In my experience the word “talent” is used as an out by people who lack the imagination that they themselves can achieve great things with hard work.
In every area people had told me I am “talented” I knew the truth, there was a lot of time behind those “talents” and not a single one I felt especially gifted at.
In my experience too. That doesn’t mean it’s not real, but people not willing to work use it to cope super hard.