Zoned High Velocity HVAC System - ONE YEAR REVIEW
Vložit
- čas přidán 22. 09. 2020
- Do the benefits outweigh the noise? That is the whole question when it comes to high velocity systems.
They have come along way, but their reputation as noisy systems holds true, and in this video I go over why we decided to use a ZONED HIGH VELOCITY HVAC SYSTEM, and if we would to it again.
This system is most commonly used for installing duct work in retrofit situations, and isn't as common in new builds.
We new we wanted to hide all of our duct work with no bulk heads or dropped ceilings, and we wanted to have a truly effective zoned system
I'll give you a peak at what this duct work looks like, how it works, and how noisy it really is!
GREAT RESOURCES:
Do I need a zoned HVAC system? www.pickhvac.com/do-i-need-a-...
NRCAN zoning decision guide for builders: www.nrcan.gc.ca/sites/www.nrc...
To keep following along with my reviews of our modern farmhouse design build, click here: / @buildlessons
Find me on instagram: / mitchcleary.realestate
I’ve been looking at high velocity and came across this video. Less than a minute later I found an article saying if your system is noisy you need more ducts to reduce highly forced air noise.
This makes perfect sense to me. A few more heads off the run you get same pressure through main line but reduced at end points.
Hi there, yes at the time we had it designed by an HVAC designer who was familiar with these systems and I believe we did all that we could to optimize the system for even temperature and sound, but I think these systems are still just inherently noisier than a conventional low velocity system due to the speed the air is travelling.
@@BuildLessons I have a >10,000 sf house with 4 heat exchangers/blowers and a very large boiler and 4 a/c units. Each heat exchanger has a dip switch that can reduce the flow by 1/6th to reduce noise. In the kitchen area 3,000 sf? it does not make much noise because there are many many vents- so noise is controllable by more vents. In my upper office, it is loud because I like to move the air around and don't like fussing with DIP switches and there are few vents. You can make it quiet but that introduces condensation/freezing issues at -30c when it does not move air quickly. It is noisier but no bulk head and enables massive ceilings. Asthetics vs noise.
@@BuildLessons Hey there! I work for Hi-Velocity (different then your systems manufacturer, but the same physics behind it), I can back up Dan's claim above. Even though you are partially correct "Hi-Velocity is inherently noisier" due to the higher velocity of the air, the system as a whole shouldn't be any nosier then i conventional forced air system. We tend to design using the "movie star design" which is just more outlet per ton of air. Usually you would need 8 -- 2" outlets per ton, and that would equate to 1100 to 1400 feet per min of air speed out of each outlet. Some systems when improperly designed, may only use 5 or 6 -- 2" outlets per ton, so therefore we would have higher velocities out of each outlet, sometimes as high as 1800 FPM or higher, which would mean a nosier air outlet. We try to design with the goal of keeping our outlet velocities under 1400 FPM, because anything faster equates to louder air noise. The systems ducting and outlet design is crucial, 9 times out of 10 those are where the noise complains generate, poorly designed system.
I have a Unico High velocity air conditioner install instructive mention to install 6 vents per ton and if the run length is over 10ft to add another run.
So I have a 3.5 ton unit. Which would be 21 vents. 5 of the vents are over 10ft. So added 5 more vents totaling 26 vents. Sounds is virtually non-existent.
This was a very well made and minimally biased video, well done.
Some input -
You've been equipped with one of the loudest types of HV registers, the adjustable w/ full shut off type, The outlet area is far less than duct cross sectional area. The resulting increase in velocity at the point of delivery is a big noise level contributor. The non adjustable types of the same style do not give up 50% of the outlet area to the covering of the "close" position sliders (no solid blocked areas) and as such have much lowered point of delivery velocity (when you did the paper under hand example, and the register being blown out of the housing repeatedly) and a corresponding reduction in noise (velocity becomes lowest at point of distribution) versus the the noise increasing (velocity highest through reguster due to decreased area) type you have installed there. Area air balancing will have to be done elsewhere, of course, and depending on accessibility, can become the compromose between temp & air balancing cs. Percieved dB level. Depending on the qaulity of the injection molded plastic registers, sharp edges, casting flash/ridges, etc, can greatly increase the noise level of otherwise identical registers. Reply to this comment if you care for more specifics, im always glad to help those who help others.
Commercial, industrial, & manufacturing systems problem solver in the Los Angeles area, TCC - Total Control Corrections
Wowwww I jus learnt sooo much in such a short time wow thank you so much for sharing ! Love the light & lay out of ya house
5:00. Lol! Thank you for the honest review.
Thanks so much for the information. I don't do well with "competing" noises. ie blowers and TV on at same time. You should get like a CZcams Emmy for 5:07!
Interesting....we have an old colonial and are considering the High Velocity - meanwhile we installed a 2 ton (from Costo) Mr. Cool mini split for the 1st floor and it's very quiet both inside and sitting on the patio next to the compressor, but an eyesore on the wall and takes up furniture wall space. With the increasingly hot summers we are looking at something more efficient than the window ac's for bedrooms. Don't need the heat system; have a very good one now.
We are thinking about this system, but for heating. Does anyone know how good it is (especially for Canadian winters)?
We have a 22yr old SpacePak mini duct system, it's seems to be a good amount quieter than the setup in the video. Ours doesn't have as much velocity either. It's noise never bothers us, pretty happy with it.
Thanks for sharing, did you zone your system or was there another reason for going with mini duct? Regards, Mitch.
@@BuildLessons our house was built in 1998 and the original owner wanted a boiler so they did mini ducts for AC. Just replaced the spacepak air handler this year because the cabinet was rusting pretty bad and the coils were very dirty and hard to clean. reused the ducting and still cost us almost 9 grand $$$. Now the boiler is pretty old and that is probably going to cost $8k. Not a cheap way to do heat and air.
The system has been good to us however I would rather do conventional forced heat and air . much more common so cheaper and easier to fix and conventional ducting can be used for mini-splits or geo thermal if ever needed
@@BuildLessons I dont think we can zone our AC because we have to use all 18 mini duct vents to allow the system to flow properly,... i was told
I wonder if smooth interior duct will reduce the noise. Corrugated interior duct definitely has a lot more friction, turbulence and noise. Plus, they wrinkle even more at each turn and bend, compound the issues.
I really wanted to get this done on my home in Seattle many years ago, but couldn’t find anyone who installed these kinds of systems. I’m in the Seattle area. Is there any kind of network or directory for finding someone who can do this kind of work?
Hi Mitch , I am in Toronto. Any good zoned high velocity brands you recommend for Canadian weather (Heat/cold) and installers who service Toronto? This is for a four level town house.
I’m thinking about a similar set-up in my 70s split-level where upstairs and downstairs are always 7-10 degrees different. How about a 2 year review..?
Thanks for the video.
We just started our reno project for a 30+ year old 3-bedroom condo of about 2,500 sf in Vancouver BC. We initially intended to put in a ductless mini-split heat pump, but were then told that we have to add a condensate pump for each of the five interior heads because gravity drain will not work reliably in our case (we don’t really understand why). The HVAC contractor recommends high velocity system but reminds us of its disadvantages: no individual room control and no fan control. This sounds quite inconvenient or unacceptable to us. Why would someone turn on the system for the whole house/place in the evening when all are sleeping in the bedrooms? How could all rooms be set at the same temperature when each person may have different expectation for his/her thermal comfort? Why did people here just talk about the noise issue, but not the disadvantages mentioned by our contractor? Did we miss something?
Also, if we get mini-split heat pump, we will pick a reputable manufacturer, such as Mitsubishi, Daikin or Fujitsu. For high velocity HVAC, we don’t have much choice. Can someone please tell me why the big corps do not manufacture high velocity system? Any recommendation on the brand and model for our place in Vancouver BC? Any advice and suggestion would be much appreciated.
What zoning device did you use to connect to your plenum?
I’m sure the zoning only intensifies the problem also, zoning is hard to get right without the use of multi stage or inverter equipment.
Were the sound attenuators used on your installation? I was exploring this brand and the company claims the unit is quite. I was looking at this system for use on a old house with little room for conventional duct work. Great video and review. Very helpful.
Hi Jimmy, our ductwork itself is meant to be sound attenuating, since it is corrugated and insulated. Did you ever move forward with the system? I have recently had some correspondence with the manufacture of the product and hope to be able to make some tweaks to optimize it!
how does it compare with the cost of conventional vs this one?
Mitch, thanks for the video. So you have the huge open concept kitchen living room - can you tell us how you dealt with the CFM / returns / vents for that area? I would imagine when you are cooking in the summer time there would be significantly more air flow required in the kitchen. But it is a giant open space.
Thanks for the encouraging comment! We have 7 supply registers in our main area which includes our dining, living, and kitchen / pantry area. This whole area is serviced by one large return air grill central to the entrance of the kitchen! The design for the system was done by a registered HVAC designer so we just went with their specs. In regards to airflow in the kitchen we have a large range hood fan and a window nearby we usually open when we are cooking and have the fan cranked up!
What did your system and install cost?
Can any forced air system be high velocity?
I have this is my old home built in 1990. My hydrotherm boiler is 160k btu, and it runs hot water to my spacepak air handler. Question, are the new systems variable speed ? And do they also require 160 degrees water to run the air handler or can they work on a lower temperature. Thanks
Hello.... I only install Unico high velocity systems due to the quality being obviously way above the rest. They have variable speed blowers, and their water Temps are around 130° to perform perfectly. And....no noise.
thanks for sharing bro. May I ask for the cost of this system?
@Buy Renovate Build I have a Hi Velocity system in my house but have always had heating issues (i.e. not warm enough air). I have changed my water boiler and now have an envirosense which is doing a better job. I was told that my issues could be because of the old air handler I have (i.e. tempmizer). do you think the airmax air handler can help resolve my heating issues?
How old is your boiler, and does it provide your domestic hot water as well? Has anyone audited the delta drop on your heat coil through the air handler to see if the pumps moving water through the heat coil need to be running at a different speed?
@@BuildLessons Boiler is new and provides to domestic as well. I've had a few people come in and have a look and have been told that hi velocity systems are known to have issues and everyone who has them has issues. I did have the last guy come in turn the blower speed to low so it doesn't push out hi pressure air. They did a check on the heat at the air handler and was between 101F to 110F with water temp set at 140. I was told this is normal and is working as it should be, but by the time the air gets to the upper floors, its just semi warm (which is fine for the weather we have right now in Southern Ontario, but not for Jan of Feb). I actually had called the Hi Velocity company and they had recommended the Airmax air handler, so am not able to find out if this will resolve the issue before I make that investment.
Sorry for the slow response I missed that you had commented back, email me at mitch.cleary@century21.ca if you want to chat in person I live in central Ontario don’t mind chatting about it over the phone if it will help.
@@BuildLessons thanks..i'll send u details..
You need to check your water flow ,pump size ,and piping size and material
What jumped out at me besides the noise factor was how flimsy the ductwork and registers were.
Aluminum foil wrapped around thin wires and cheap plastic registers.
What brand did you use? I don't see it mentioned in the description or any of the comments!
Thank you for the video! Great explanation of high velocity systems. I too have a high velocity retrofit and a Airmax Model 70 system in our 50 year old 2300 sq. ft. home. Was thinking of getting a whole home steam humidifier system installed. I have a couple of concerns and wondering what you think. First, is there a concern about mould with high velocity systems vs. traditional metal ducting? Second,. would I need to and or have the humidifier controlled based on outside temperatures? does that mean I need a new smart thermostat that can be programmed to control the humidifier?
i think you should instead seriously consider local freestanding humidifiers. pop the xtra $ for nice looking upscale ones so having them in your LR/DR/greatroom etc isn't unsightly. any ducts through which your push steam will get moldy. they just will. no getting around it. just get the ones on casters so you can wheel them around.
@@aap71 Hi Andrew thanks for the advice. I really appreciate the insight and will certainly consider your input. Lots to consider at this time.
@@FrancisSiuChock I don't agree with this. We have had a whole house humidifier installed in half our home for 10 years - we added it to a system that was making our walls crack in winter. It has awesomely increased comfort. I run the system periodically overnight without the humidifier to evaporate any condensate in the ducts. We recently did some repairs, and the ducts were clean as a whistle after 10+ years.
That’s why smart people use linear air vents that slow the air down and spread it out. A muffler would also help putting one at the end of the run. They make them for every size duct. Also those cheap plastic vents it comes with really don’t help. The pattern of the vent may work for the air velocity shaping to spread out evenly but creates even more sound. Linear vents would have to be in ceiling. If that’s not possible then anyway you can widen the air outlet would help. Such as get a large plenum air box with insulation inside before the grill. These are off the shelf too. Or you could put in a liner vent in a wall too. And if you don’t like the way that looks you could put fabric panels on the wall or put the liners vents behind canvas art or tapestry. Not only hides it but also acts to quiet it down. Best method is a coffered and or tray ceiling and put vents behind molding with a linear vent. Or my favorite do a suspended ceiling with a edge liner indirect lighting. The ceiling where it ends like 4-5 inches from the wall and you put a led strip there that bounces light up and down onto the wall. And up there is a great place to have vents to slow down the air and cool air then falls around the edge of the room. Smaller version of this would be using panels like acoustic paneling suspended and placing air vents above them. Suspended ceilings and paneling gives you room for the small ducts and any mechanical or electrical you’d want to add as well as having easy access in the future. All for only 8-9 inches of ceiling height.
Dropping the cold air from the ceiling sounds great for AC, but if you have a combined system that also provides heat, you're just wasting energy. We had a HV system installed 7 years ago in our mountain house that had a boiler, radiators and no AC. At that time we were told that the entire point is the HIGH VELOCITY that causes the air to rapidly mix and disperse throughout the room with these small vents. I also believe the swirling caused by the ribbed ducts is part of that action.
Based on that, your suggestions would seem to render the system much less effective, if I'm understanding them correctly. Still, it got me thinking. I realized that the only places I really notice the noise is where the vents are close to one of the main 8" trunks. That may indicate a need to better divide/plan flows so these are not "over-pressured" but still qualify as "high velocity."
Isn’t there any options to change the air registers to one that’ll help reduce the noise ? Seems like the small holes in the register is creating most of the noise because the has to force itself out.
This is about the worst register on the market for noise. The SpacePak ones a WAY quieter.
Great point. The noise in the vid is mainly aerodynamics of the grill. Maybe duct friction as well. Not from the blower/furnace.
I have a cape cod and any one who has owned one knows that the second floor is like the attic even though I have an attic space. I had a spacepak put in three years ago and can't begin to tell you how this has changed the summer time in DC. I love this unit and mine is not nearly as loud as this featured one is. The second floor which could be like a furnace in the summer is now just as comfortable as the first floor. If it went out tomorrow,. I'd stick with the same thing.
Interesting so is the spacepak just a heat pump that heats and cools that floor?
@@BuildLessons Not at all. Mine is only AC and is just like any other AC with a few exceptions. They can pull the small tubes almost anywhere in the house without having to tear out walls. The fan/exchanger is in the attic so the second floor is easily cooled and then goes to the first floor. It's high velocity so they usually have the outlets come out near corners so that you are not directly under the outlet.
Oh, and the compressor is outside just like any other AC unit.
czcams.com/video/x9huQwtbXHU/video.html
@@BuildLessons Unico and Spacepak are the American high velocity manufacturers. Hi-Velocity and Airmax are the Canadian manufacturers.
We have well over 100 systems installed nationwide and this is nothing like a well designed and installed system. Others have already noted that this problem is caused by improper design of takeoffs. These systems require a minimum and maximum amount of supply ducts off the main trunk. Proper takeoffs will make the system much quieter than any conventional system while cooling and heating your residence perfectly. Also there are only two manufacturers that should be used SpacePak or Unico high velocity systems. The system shown in the video neither...... look at the air handler in the video.
Where are you located?
Thanks for the clarification- hoping Unico won’t be that loud..
Or "Hi-Velocity" is the Canadian equivalent to space Pak or Unico. They are good too.
Do you know where to buy those air vent covers. Thank you
Do you have a high velocity system with round openings? I got mine direct from AirMax in Toronto: www.airmaxtechnologies.com
Have used Energy Saving Hi Velocity system for 25Years their units the fan speed can be regulated and run very quietly.Your system is operating on high speed
Noise is all about the design, and Energy Saving products does that part right (and you can fully modulate the fan speed with that product)! Glad you like it.
Good video but your suggestion that the mini ductwork helps with the zoning is wrong. Standard ductwork works perfectly fine. The issue is 100% always the installation and setup. I love the mini duck and install it all the time!!
This man was listening to his parents clap cheeks
If you live in florida, just remember you need a unit to pull humidity out, if you live in virginia and up this will be fine since those are non high humidity states
You should have 6 to 7 outlets per ton of cooling or you will have noise.
Everyone here is mentioning that they have quieter mini-duct systems and indeed they do. The reason is because AirMax/Hi-Velocity that you are using is a very poor quality brand. Think physics Mitch. There are two reasons why your outlets are making noise: 1. There's a lot of airflow moving at high velocity. If you lower the airflow or velocity, you lower the noise because there is less frictional resistance that causes noise, but that would defeat the purpose of the system (you don't get the recommended circulation you require). 2. You have airflow moving past HIGH FRICTION BENDS. This is the difference between a crap brand like AirMax and Space Pak/Unico. Airmax requires the use of a NINETY DEGREE TEE at EVERY OUTLET. This is why it is so darn loud. Air at high velocity literally slams into a 90 degree turn just before entering EVERY OUTLET in your room. EVERY OTHER BRAND SPECIFICALLY RECOMMENDS AGAINST THIS TO REDUCE NOISE. ONLY AirMax/Hi-Velocity recommends to do this. If you think physics, then you know this is a giant mistake from a cheap garbage brand. DO NOT use AirMax/Hi-Velocity again until they correct such an obvious problem. They obviously don't know what they're doing (or do but are here to screw unknowing homeowners).
What are the additional cost to do a system like this?
It’s been a while since I’ve had to deal with the expenses since we installed it so I can’t remember and exact cost. I believe it was more expensive all the way around right from the high speed fan, onto the cost of the zone dampers, and then the duct work itself I believe was more expensive, but I can’t remember the percentage vs conventional. You’ve got me wondering now though, I might have to go back into the spreadsheet to review what the damage was lol.
@@BuildLessons Thanks I would like to know.
@@BaldPrairieRealEstate Hey Matt, so in addition to my other reply, I found its hard to draw an apples to apples comparison of a high velocity zone system vs zoning a conventional furnace. The first thing I will say is that you do not want to zone a simple single stage furnace, it must be fully modulating so that it can adjust its output depending on whether or not it is heating one floor or the whole house...so to start you are in for the cost of a top of the line furnace. Next, a high velocity air handler still needs a heat source aka a boiler, so you are in for the cost of two appliances if you do high velocity, which can push your cost in this category from around $3000-$5000 for a great furnace, too $6000+ for a good zoned air handler, a good boiler, and install of both appliances. The insulated flex duct for high velocity costs about $3.50 per for, plus $14 per register kit, but it is much less labor intensive than metal ducted to install. You don't have to go high velocity to zone a system, so you can save that few thousand on the appliances, but there is a great debate about how leaky conventional duct is when zoned. Hopefully this helps! Ive post another cost list below for the costs of zoning a conventional furnace, because you have to remember most of the high velocity air handlers come with zone dampers built in, but with a furnace you have to buy them separate.
@@BaldPrairieRealEstate Heres a good segment off one of the good articles I found on zoning I'll share the links too...I'll drop the links in the description they are both worth the read if your considering zoning a system:
*Multizone thermostats:$130 to $600 based on features such as whether it has basic design or has a full-color LCD screen, touchscreen or WiFi capability.
*Zone control panel:$115 to $200 depending on its capabilities.
*Zone sensors:$28 to $45.
*Power dampers:$85 to $175 for dampers for round branch ducts; $150 to $325 for large, rectangular dampers for large trunks
*Wiring:$50 to $150 per system depending on the number of zones
*Fasteners, mastic and tape for sealing ducts:$35 to $100+ for the entire job depending on the number of zones.Tools and safety gear:$60 to $225 for the job depending on the quality of the tools purchased.The total for equipment is about $485 to $725 for a two-zone system and rises by $150 to $300 per additional zone.
@@BuildLessons Thanks for the great information.
It’s loud when it runs but at least it normally only runs for a short amount of time.
I agree - I forgot to cover that more in depth in this video, but it definitely gets the house up (or down) to temperature a lot quicker than a conventional system would.
@@BuildLessons That is why its called HiVeloAC- it cools much faster and efficiently. I am on fence for this system or Multisplits (for cooling only). I don't need heat-I have hydronic system w/furnace.
Has anyone watching used or considered using this system?!
I just learned about this kind of system and am really interested for our new build, though the sound issue gives me pause. Thanks for the review, it's actually pretty hard to find good info on this system that the end consumer can understand. How long does the system run when it's on?
Same here. Old house. But I hate loud noise. Especially at bed time.
@@oioioilll Not very long, I have never actually timed it but I do believe it reaches desired temp quicker than conventional system when the temperature drops the .5 degrees below the thermostat temperature to trigger the system to turn on. All in all we have enjoyed this system.
@@maceo2012 Yes this seems to be the main argument against this style of system. Do you happen to know how old your system is and who the air handler is made by? Regards, Mitch.
Especially that clip of you jumping up in bed which I know was highly exaggerated should not have that level of noise coming out of the registers. That level of noise indicates there's something very wrong with how your system is tuned and set up. I would advise you or implore you to call Unico themselves and ask them who they feel is a reputable distributor and call them to have it checked out.
I have to say that your description of what would happen in a zone system that has normal duct work is absolutely not what would happen. On any system where you have a normal duct layout and zoning you have a bypass air damper that is weighted so that it will progressively open up all the way to 100% when there's just one zone in play. The reason that those Unico systems have a smaller duct diameter is to reduce the amount of insulation that is needed to get a sealed envelope inside of that duct. That allows them to run 250 cubic feet per minute instead of the normal 450 cubic feet per minute per ton of air conditioning at the cost of having to do it at 1.5" in of water column instead of .5" of water column. The biggest reason that people go to these systems aside from having to retrofit house that just plain doesn't have any duct work is because the noise is much less due to moving much less air through each register. If you want to add zoning to your house and have regular duct work there is no issue whatsoever just call a qualified professional to be able to hook you up and you'll reduce your bills pretty quickly
You should definitely have your system checked out, maybe not by the people that installed it, because you should not hear the air coming out of the registers on a Unico system. The only way you should be hearing the air coming out of the registers on a Unico system is it's literally everything else in the entire room that makes noise is off.
I just watched this video and was utterly surprised at the noise and quality of that system.
I know there is inferior brands and systems on the market, but I've never seen one like that.
That was a poor quality product that was installed very, very poorly.
I feel this video will give people looking for a quality system, a very bad portrayal of what a good system looks and acts like.
I will go on to say.... I only install Unico high velocity systems. You might have seen me do it on TV. My systems are NEVER loud, and the quality is night and day compared to what I just saw.
Yea that’s a dealbreaker for most people.
When you mentioned "you can crunch down in a tight space" that's when, I realized you don't know anything about your installed systems installation requirements. Also, are you applying 6 to 7 vents per ton of a/c. ...may I guess, Nope!
Doesn't sound any noisier than a windows air conditioner.
We have a 12 year old unico system. It is not noisy. This one wasn’t installed correctly. Too few registers?
Who ever installed this has zero clue about what they are doing…. High velocity is NOT loud… If done correctly (WHICH YOURS IS NOT) theres less noise than in a conventional system.
Are there any videos that you recommend to learn more? (Serious question)