Thanks so much. This is what I’ve been trying to figure out for a long time and it really unlocked a lot of creative blocks. I’ve also found that changing the tempo can dramatically change a known style.
I love arrangers, and don't think they are cheesy at all if used tastefully. I'm a guitarist, but got started with arrangers when I bought a PSR 373 for my sons birthday. They make for great drum machines, and I recommend them to all guitar players for that purpose. Now, I also own a PSR 473, and am about to buy a Go Keys 5 for a music studio I teach lessons out of. My dream instrument is a more premium spec Roland FP-E50 with PHA 50 keyboard, premium speakers, transport controls to operate a DAW, and built in guitar modeling interface. Pretty much combine the FP90X, a PSR900, a Novation Launchpad, and a Neural DSP Quad Cortex, and then I will never buy another gadget again. Nor would I leave the house. Thanks for all the great content Woody.
Woody, that's some good playing. You're music did not sound Cheesy until I looked at the screen and saw more plants than wires. MORE WIRES! We know their there, you are cropping out with your camera angle. And, not a beer can in sight 😢😮🍻 🎹
I agree with you regarding the type of pop music you are playing. If one uses the variations, some of the tracks are already muted in the style. Yamaha (Genos2 and Genos1) has a live control knob that allow you to sucessively add drums, then bass, then chord1, then chord2 etc. and another knob that goes in the opposite direction. This feature is useful for seeing how much one should pare down or increase the orchestration of a style, in real time. As far as right hand playing sounding more realistic, the ensemble feature on Genos1 and Genos2 combines 4 right hand voices in a "smart" manner so they do not all just play the same notes. [Maybe Korg has something similar.] Different genres of music might be more appropriate for arrangers, including orchestral where one can combine sounds on the right hand and use a free style (never very busy) in the left, along with a left hand voice and if one wishes, multipad arpeggios or orchestral drums.
Thank you woody. This is the conclusion that I have come to as well. Basic Bass and drum Acc. With my new Pa5x some off the Acc are good so make a keyboard set with some in or out and you can switch. Talking of switching I have got a Blackstar Live pedal to do the job of an EC5. Also I use a Nord 6D and Nuatilus as external modules playing them from the Pa4x. Took some to to figure out how to get this to work but it is great now it does!
Fun to see some more of the Korg Pa5X, also a great work station. I allready am so used to how the Yamaha workstations works, and can't afford both of them, so i stick with the Genos 2 🙂 But i do enjoy seeing and hearing you have fun with the korg. Keep having fun making music. Kind regards, Ronald.
Great advice and half of that I already do but some new ones there too I will try & avoid 👍😊. Also the fact that the Pa5x already sounds professional & realistic helps a lot compared to any arranger keyboard specifically designed to be played with 90% of song styles, some which you have no other song that can be played.
Fantastic advice Woody. Thank you so much for this video. Totally agree with your point about using styles for songs that they weren't intended for, and also if a style is intended for that song, don't play that song. Way back when when I was doing piano lessons, my piano teacher taught me Mamma Mia and he told me the exact same thing. I still have my Pa3x and still play that piece on the piano, but I NEVER play it in the style it was intended for originally, and usually play it in an Electro Dance style which I believe is still in the Pa5x but updated. Can't remember what it's called. Also, play the song Love Story (Where do I begin), in a funk style. Once again, can't remember for the life of me what it's called. And also with your point about if a style is in a particular song, don't play that song, just because that style is in a particular song, that does NOT mean that you are restricted to that song. That's the whole point of creativity.
Tough to do the non-cheesy with preset styles. When you build your own for your own song, that's when the miracle of arrangers show their true value. You can build up for big peaks of excitement by using the Intro's or endings in the middle of songs or transitions, then build 2 or more measures into the variations so you can hold for that second measure with extra drum alterations and some instrument stabs options. You can also use the intro's and endings' for chord progressions and free up drum dynamics matching the progression changes. On the fills you can build a pattern that can launched more than once, 2x or 3x in a row to match the keyboard stabs. Pretty much endless possibilities, like making very complex arrangements using the faders or mutes to bring in more complexity instead freeing the other variations for other chores, and then the bank and registration allow changes in time switching so now you can have 12 variations for example....on and on...
Kindly do tutorial about "full keyboard" accompaniment mode. Searched whole CZcams , no related videos are available. 1. How to use full keyboard mode. 2.full keyboard vs multifingering mode. 3.how to play different voices in full keyboard mode (adding left voice). 4. How to improvise on full keyboard mode without of clashes... 5.how chrod recognition is working on full keyboard mode Thank you 😊
I wonder what you would suggest for some of the more affordable arrangers that don't come with some of the features you are using like full keyboard chord detection. I was planning to get a Yamaha PSR E-473, or if they release the E-483 soon, than that maybe. Or should I spend more to get a Roland Go Keys 3? No clue, so many options.
It's possible to turn off some parts of a style on the E-473. I used to do it all the time on my EW-400 (which is basically a 76 key version of the same keyboard). For example, for some songs starting with the drums off (using the bass to keep time) is really effective - then hit your A-B/fill on beat 2, and unmute the drums on beat 3 and you get an awesome drum entry.
Muting parts of auto accompaniment always makes the style compatible with more songs, and also gives you a chance to play yourself instead of been overshadowed by the arranger :D Older PSRs did not have the ability to mute or control the volume of such parts, and it was really annoying. Back in late 80s at the yamaha music school I preferred the Electone that had fewer but simpler and more generic styles than the fancier PSRs. On a side note, what voices would you suggest for vocal melodies?
yes, well said. the only sound that isn't cheesy for playing melodies is piano. although i do get a kick from playing classical guitar sounds, it's enjoyable but will be cheezy. the best solution is to sing the melody, of course, or have someone else sing it.
@@WoodyPianoShack Cheezy will be clearly preferred than me singing the part :) And piano is not really suitable for all melodies. Ah well, there is compromise in everything I guess!
So, let me ask you a question. You've had both of what I consider to be the top two arranger keyboards on the market, the Genos 2 and the PA5X. Would you consider adding one to your keyboard arsenal? Maybe not for gigging (or, maybe you would), but more for songwriting and such? How about maybe a solo gig? Would you use one in a professional setting?
@@WoodyPianoShack that's a fair and honest answer, and I appreciate it. I would like to see your thoughts in a video, but if it doesn't get done, that's okay, too.
Avoiding the cheese on arrangers is a tricky business. Not impossible, but requires careful navigation. Latin tracks generally work well (especially with the top-end arrangers like Genos and Pa5x) - basically usable out of the box in most cases (without too much cheese). Languid, slower Latin tracks work even better. Muting various parts is still helpful. Ambient/Chill also works well with arrangers - by paring back the accompaniments and - as you suggested - choosing completely inappropriate arrangements and just finding out what can be conjured. Sadly, this is a genre poorly-served by arrangers.
As Woody pointed out-don't be reluctant to use a wrong style for your cover-who knows, it just might work out for you as much as it did for Manfred Mann
Nice - but didn't you break your own rule in Fields of Gold - playing vocal line with guitar? Doesn't bother me, though, to be honest. I think you got most of the tips right. Overall, less is more.
To avoid sounding cheesy, simple solution, but nobody's going to like it: Add a second keyboard. I have 2 Yamaha arrangers and a Medeli and all 3 rigs have an Akai MPC connected. I also have many other synths and sound modules from Yamaha, roland, korg, Behringer, to add into the mix as needed. If you are going to use an unedited style you better have lots of off board keyboard options to hide that generic style. Without that, better learn how to create your own styles based on your set list. I actually reverse engineer styles to the Akai MPC because of it's sampling and looping features. But the arranger is my starting point for song ideas either original songs, or covers. If you play covers, best to get an arranger that allows creating styles from scratch, and has a lot of available user styles. That would allow performances that are more dynamic and closer to the original recordings.
i agree with your sentiments, sadly in my experience the style creation workflow on these instruments is really painful and does not encourage creation of own styles, rather deters from it :)
With almost all arrangers the drums are too soft and the melody too loud. It makes it sound like a home organ. Turn up the volume of the drums and turn down the volume of the melody, and it will sound more like a real band.
It’s all relative…Onessa has thousands of followers and more gigs than she can handle, and uses arrangements that you may write off as cheesy…. czcams.com/users/shortsLwTEsEfwWtQ?si=LBX0W1KeuyYYdRcE
I'm not convinced. Your style is generally "turn everything the instrument offers off", and that's fine - for you - but not everyone (including me). I'll turn off specific things from a style if it gets in the way (choir scat in gospel styles), but I don't feel the need to turn everything off. The easiest way to not sound cheesy is to not pick cheesy songs in your set. But sometimes punters want cheese, and you just have to let them have it.
fair enough! my feeling is that the accomp parts can sound artificial, especially acoustc instruments so better result to switch off and play those parts myself with a keyboard sound.
Here, I share my pieces of advice: 1. Thou shalt silence the pre-programmed guitars, trumpets, and accordions of the style. 2. Thou shalt play thine own brass accents. 3. If thou dost not play the accordion as Omar Geles, refrain from playing guajiros rhythms. 4. Thou shalt play thine own counterpoint for the cumbia. 5. Thou shalt never play "El Mariachi Loco." with your keyboard. 6. Thou shalt not use the Salsa and Merengue Style. If you really want to play and dance, procure real percussion instruments. 7. Use not the built-in intro and ending parts; better to employ the variations 8. Thou shalt not use the sound of the harmonica for the vocal part of 'I Just Called (to Say I Love You).' 9. Though sax in vocal parts may sound uncouth, when playing carols in malls, 'tis part of the truth. 10. If thou hast the means, endeavor to use an arranger with a programmable drum machine. Thank you, Woody!!!! Great information! Arranger keyboards are a great tool. Using creativity, they can sound professional.
“Jazz Scat preset is forbidden”
Woody, you are a man after my heart.
Great advice on muting most of the auto-accompaniment tracks, Woody! Cheers!
Thanks so much. This is what I’ve been trying to figure out for a long time and it really unlocked a lot of creative blocks.
I’ve also found that changing the tempo can dramatically change a known style.
Great demo on Korg pa5x ever. Thanks Mr Woody
Great demo, good hints. Thanks a lot, Woody.
Kind regards,
Thomas
I think a Bossa Nova will always sound cheezzzzzey!
But loved you playing on Don't give up ! 👍
thank you! girl from ipanema with stan getz is far from cheez tho!
I love arrangers, and don't think they are cheesy at all if used tastefully. I'm a guitarist, but got started with arrangers when I bought a PSR 373 for my sons birthday. They make for great drum machines, and I recommend them to all guitar players for that purpose. Now, I also own a PSR 473, and am about to buy a Go Keys 5 for a music studio I teach lessons out of.
My dream instrument is a more premium spec Roland FP-E50 with PHA 50 keyboard, premium speakers, transport controls to operate a DAW, and built in guitar modeling interface. Pretty much combine the FP90X, a PSR900, a Novation Launchpad, and a Neural DSP Quad Cortex, and then I will never buy another gadget again. Nor would I leave the house.
Thanks for all the great content Woody.
Woody, that's some good playing. You're music did not sound Cheesy until I looked at the screen and saw more plants than wires. MORE WIRES! We know their there, you are cropping out with your camera angle. And, not a beer can in sight 😢😮🍻 🎹
I agree with you regarding the type of pop music you are playing. If one uses the variations, some of the tracks are already muted in the style. Yamaha (Genos2 and Genos1) has a live control knob that allow you to sucessively add drums, then bass, then chord1, then chord2 etc. and another knob that goes in the opposite direction. This feature is useful for seeing how much one should pare down or increase the orchestration of a style, in real time. As far as right hand playing sounding more realistic, the ensemble feature on Genos1 and Genos2 combines 4 right hand voices in a "smart" manner so they do not all just play the same notes. [Maybe Korg has something similar.] Different genres of music might be more appropriate for arrangers, including orchestral where one can combine sounds on the right hand and use a free style (never very busy) in the left, along with a left hand voice and if one wishes, multipad arpeggios or orchestral drums.
Thanks Woody, loved it cheers.
Love this video Woody give me some ideas with my Geno s 2 one sick of sounding cheesy cheers👍
Thank you woody. This is the conclusion that I have come to as well. Basic Bass and drum Acc. With my new Pa5x some off the Acc are good so make a keyboard set with some in or out and you can switch. Talking of switching I have got a Blackstar Live pedal to do the job of an EC5. Also I use a Nord 6D and Nuatilus as external modules playing them from the Pa4x. Took some to to figure out how to get this to work but it is great now it does!
Great ideas!
Buttt.... playing with the Jazz Scat sound is sooo much fun !! One of my guilty pleasures. Props to Nik Kershaw btw
Great advices. This is the way i always try to play my PA1000, however i often regret not to have bought a workstation like the MODX or Montage.
Fun to see some more of the Korg Pa5X, also a great work station. I allready am so used to how the Yamaha workstations works, and can't afford both of them, so i stick with the Genos 2 🙂 But i do enjoy seeing and hearing you have fun with the korg. Keep having fun making music.
Kind regards, Ronald.
Awsome video. I realy would like to learn how to get to this super result. 😊
Cheese is just a loaf of milk. 😉
My PSR can do cheese...lol
Funny how people don't mind eating milk and cheese but if I was to offer up some human breast milk you would turn your nose up at me.
Great advice and half of that I already do but some new ones there too I will try & avoid 👍😊. Also the fact that the Pa5x already sounds professional & realistic helps a lot compared to any arranger keyboard specifically designed to be played with 90% of song styles, some which you have no other song that can be played.
Love when you throw in some songs by The Midnight!
Fantastic advice Woody. Thank you so much for this video. Totally agree with your point about using styles for songs that they weren't intended for, and also if a style is intended for that song, don't play that song. Way back when when I was doing piano lessons, my piano teacher taught me Mamma Mia and he told me the exact same thing. I still have my Pa3x and still play that piece on the piano, but I NEVER play it in the style it was intended for originally, and usually play it in an Electro Dance style which I believe is still in the Pa5x but updated. Can't remember what it's called. Also, play the song Love Story (Where do I begin), in a funk style. Once again, can't remember for the life of me what it's called. And also with your point about if a style is in a particular song, don't play that song, just because that style is in a particular song, that does NOT mean that you are restricted to that song. That's the whole point of creativity.
Tough to do the non-cheesy with preset styles. When you build your own for your own song, that's when the miracle of arrangers show their true value. You can build up for big peaks of excitement by using the Intro's or endings in the middle of songs or transitions, then build 2 or more measures into the variations so you can hold for that second measure with extra drum alterations and some instrument stabs options. You can also use the intro's and endings' for chord progressions and free up drum dynamics matching the progression changes. On the fills you can build a pattern that can launched more than once, 2x or 3x in a row to match the keyboard stabs. Pretty much endless possibilities, like making very complex arrangements using the faders or mutes to bring in more complexity instead freeing the other variations for other chores, and then the bank and registration allow changes in time switching so now you can have 12 variations for example....on and on...
Kindly do tutorial about "full keyboard" accompaniment mode.
Searched whole CZcams , no related videos are available.
1. How to use full keyboard mode.
2.full keyboard vs multifingering mode.
3.how to play different voices in full keyboard mode (adding left voice).
4. How to improvise on full keyboard mode without of clashes...
5.how chrod recognition is working on full keyboard mode
Thank you 😊
The Korg Pa5x sounds so much better than other arrangers. Less cheesy than the Genos2.
Cheddar is less cheesy than the Genos2
Very good advice Woody.... I have the PSR-SX900, and I had done a few of the things you mentioned... Gread Video !!! You Rock !!!
After first solo should have continued with " ya ya e coko jambo, ya ya yeeeh " ❤ they fit well after each other
Arranger means cheesy, there’s nothing to do about it. Lots of love to you Woody ❤
More cheese grommit!! ❤
My kind of vid, thanks!
The solution is mute, mute, mute :)
Is there a way I can put my screen on my 40 inch monitor, with PSR-SX900??? love what you did there...
you need some hard to find USB to HDMI adapter, then in theory it should work.
Thank you for your valuable tips. Although I must admit I sometimes like cheese.
I wonder what you would suggest for some of the more affordable arrangers that don't come with some of the features you are using like full keyboard chord detection. I was planning to get a Yamaha PSR E-473, or if they release the E-483 soon, than that maybe. Or should I spend more to get a Roland Go Keys 3? No clue, so many options.
It's possible to turn off some parts of a style on the E-473. I used to do it all the time on my EW-400 (which is basically a 76 key version of the same keyboard). For example, for some songs starting with the drums off (using the bass to keep time) is really effective - then hit your A-B/fill on beat 2, and unmute the drums on beat 3 and you get an awesome drum entry.
@@SteveCaddy cool, thanks for the info.
Expected a "Yeah baaybee" - Austin Powers style, never. been a fan of arranger keyboards but loved the Jeff Lorber.
Muting parts of auto accompaniment always makes the style compatible with more songs, and also gives you a chance to play yourself instead of been overshadowed by the arranger :D Older PSRs did not have the ability to mute or control the volume of such parts, and it was really annoying. Back in late 80s at the yamaha music school I preferred the Electone that had fewer but simpler and more generic styles than the fancier PSRs. On a side note, what voices would you suggest for vocal melodies?
yes, well said. the only sound that isn't cheesy for playing melodies is piano. although i do get a kick from playing classical guitar sounds, it's enjoyable but will be cheezy. the best solution is to sing the melody, of course, or have someone else sing it.
@@WoodyPianoShack Cheezy will be clearly preferred than me singing the part :) And piano is not really suitable for all melodies. Ah well, there is compromise in everything I guess!
What level of professional keyboardist are you :
Plugs in a TV for display 😮
More Cheddar 🧀 please 😂
how about replace keyboard sounds with samples or vst sounds?
So, let me ask you a question. You've had both of what I consider to be the top two arranger keyboards on the market, the Genos 2 and the PA5X. Would you consider adding one to your keyboard arsenal? Maybe not for gigging (or, maybe you would), but more for songwriting and such? How about maybe a solo gig? Would you use one in a professional setting?
too much thoughts to answer fairly in a comment, and i get the question million times, will perhaos summarise in vid once and for all
@@WoodyPianoShack that's a fair and honest answer, and I appreciate it. I would like to see your thoughts in a video, but if it doesn't get done, that's okay, too.
Avoiding the cheese on arrangers is a tricky business. Not impossible, but requires careful navigation. Latin tracks generally work well (especially with the top-end arrangers like Genos and Pa5x) - basically usable out of the box in most cases (without too much cheese). Languid, slower Latin tracks work even better. Muting various parts is still helpful. Ambient/Chill also works well with arrangers - by paring back the accompaniments and - as you suggested - choosing completely inappropriate arrangements and just finding out what can be conjured. Sadly, this is a genre poorly-served by arrangers.
how to convert yamaha psr 80 into korg PA5X?
👍🎵🎵🎹Korg pa 5x
As Woody pointed out-don't be reluctant to use a wrong style for your cover-who knows, it just might work out for you as much as it did for Manfred Mann
Is it unfair to suggest step 0 seems to be change the Genos for a PA-5X?
sorry, do not understand the question
Now the you've played two of the top tier arranger keyboards, which way are you leaning ?
i got the question 1000 times and cannot answer every time in a comment, it's too complicated... :) may make a vid
Nice - but didn't you break your own rule in Fields of Gold - playing vocal line with guitar? Doesn't bother me, though, to be honest. I think you got most of the tips right. Overall, less is more.
To avoid sounding cheesy, simple solution, but nobody's going to like it: Add a second keyboard. I have 2 Yamaha arrangers and a Medeli and all 3 rigs have an Akai MPC connected. I also have many other synths and sound modules from Yamaha, roland, korg, Behringer, to add into the mix as needed. If you are going to use an unedited style you better have lots of off board keyboard options to hide that generic style. Without that, better learn how to create your own styles based on your set list. I actually reverse engineer styles to the Akai MPC because of it's sampling and looping features. But the arranger is my starting point for song ideas either original songs, or covers. If you play covers, best to get an arranger that allows creating styles from scratch, and has a lot of available user styles. That would allow performances that are more dynamic and closer to the original recordings.
i agree with your sentiments, sadly in my experience the style creation workflow on these instruments is really painful and does not encourage creation of own styles, rather deters from it :)
@@WoodyPianoShackThat's my number 1 question about this keyboard. How do you create your own style. Nobody seems even to try.
@@GizzyDillespee i tried, believe me. but it would not make great watching on a video.
I will have the cheese please 😊.
With almost all arrangers the drums are too soft and the melody too loud. It makes it sound like a home organ. Turn up the volume of the drums and turn down the volume of the melody, and it will sound more like a real band.
At last someone who agrees with me. I like the drums and bass high and always switch the pad off.
It’s all relative…Onessa has thousands of followers and more gigs than she can handle, and uses arrangements that you may write off as cheesy….
czcams.com/users/shortsLwTEsEfwWtQ?si=LBX0W1KeuyYYdRcE
I'm not convinced. Your style is generally "turn everything the instrument offers off", and that's fine - for you - but not everyone (including me). I'll turn off specific things from a style if it gets in the way (choir scat in gospel styles), but I don't feel the need to turn everything off. The easiest way to not sound cheesy is to not pick cheesy songs in your set. But sometimes punters want cheese, and you just have to let them have it.
fair enough! my feeling is that the accomp parts can sound artificial, especially acoustc instruments so better result to switch off and play those parts myself with a keyboard sound.
Here, I share my pieces of advice:
1. Thou shalt silence the pre-programmed guitars, trumpets, and accordions of the style.
2. Thou shalt play thine own brass accents.
3. If thou dost not play the accordion as Omar Geles, refrain from playing guajiros rhythms.
4. Thou shalt play thine own counterpoint for the cumbia.
5. Thou shalt never play "El Mariachi Loco." with your keyboard.
6. Thou shalt not use the Salsa and Merengue Style. If you really want to play and dance, procure real percussion instruments.
7. Use not the built-in intro and ending parts; better to employ the variations
8. Thou shalt not use the sound of the harmonica for the vocal part of 'I Just Called (to Say I Love You).'
9. Though sax in vocal parts may sound uncouth, when playing carols in malls, 'tis part of the truth.
10. If thou hast the means, endeavor to use an arranger with a programmable drum machine.
Thank you, Woody!!!! Great information! Arranger keyboards are a great tool. Using creativity, they can sound professional.