Modern Writing Is Creating Better Villains Then Heroes! Adam, Lute And Baylan Skoll Show Us Why
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- čas přidán 22. 02. 2024
- Baylan Skoll, Adam, Lute and John Smith. These characters have very little if anything in common! Hailing from three different shows, Ahsoka, Hazbin Hotel and The Man In The high Castle yet the reaction to these characters was the same! becoming fan favorites despite being nothing more then the villain, the bad guy! Because modern writing is near completely incapable of writing engaging heroes! Too often the people we are supposed to root for are simplistic two dimensional and utterly invulnerable! whilst the villains! given the advantage of mystique and actual stakes in the events of the show! shine as a result!
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It's pretty simple. When a sociopath attempts to write someone they dislike, they end up with a fairly normal person.
Adam is a classic example of the "Sympathetic Strawman" / John Walker Syndrome...
I don’t think that Adam is a normal person unless you were on a college campus about 30 years ago
*THIS.* Although I would say not all modern writers are sociopaths, some are psychopaths, narcissists, or some combination of the above. Sometimes they're just morally degenerate, so the "bad guys" to them are people w/ morals who hold themselves to high standards, and usually those standards turn out to be genuinely good.
@@simonpetrikov3992The point is that Adam is already in Heaven and nothing that he does in the afterlife can take that away from him.
It is perfect contrast to Charlie, who wants to find redemption for sinners after they have been condemned to Hell.
Or you guys have qualities that are similar to Adam, which is why you like watching the neckbearded Arch excuse this obvious narcissist's actions. Just a thought.
As the saying goes Heroes are only as good as their Villains, and there's no bigger villain than the Girl Boss. Most of us like to see stories in where a character faces insurmountable odds, it doesn't matter if they succeed or fail: It matters that they make the attempt, and what's more insurmountable than facing the invincible Girl Boss?
The Girl Boss always acts and talks like a villain.
Or that the hero boss girl, wiouth realizing by defeating the villan, make everihting bad, or create a hell of situation and has to once again ask mercy and ask the big bad villan help
Honestly giving the Girl boss Shonen protagonist tropes just makes them surprisingly more fun@@aj.j5833
You are right about that but also the hero needs to be developed as well. But I don't see the chemistry between Adam and lute comes off as just professional work related. Yes, you can say that she shows that she cares about Adam when he dies. But bad that's just a concern for her friend.
@@Krysnha Agreed
When your girlfriend is angrier about things done to you than you are, that is absolute Best Girl material right there. Wife her immediately and never let her go.
Or until she gets bored and drops you off without your wallet
@@dansmith16 Don't worry, that's only something Emily would do.
@dansmith16 Who hurt you, mate? Actually, why are you letting them tie down to the past like a cheesy teen flick character? You can do way better than that.
@@Bennett-wj9vg Maybe because our disgustingly corrupt and gynophilic court system destroyed everything he built over the course of a lifetime with the stroke of a pen? If he is in pain, maybe he deserves better than your flippant mockery?
It's not mockery just because it can be seen as amusing to others. While yes, I'm relatively invested in my own pleasure, I do believe they needed someone to be concerned for them without cuddling and pretending their issues ain't there. I meant what I said. I was curious and was aiming to lighten the mood in some way. Perhaps you should try being negative and overly critical less and more curious and more positive. That way, even if you believe I'm wretched by the end of it, you'll understand a little more and won't jump to assumptions and badmouthing the moment it stricks you.
The one thing I think could have made Adam a better foil for Charlie was have him be the representative of the actual defence of letting sinners into heaven. What I mean is that he should have brought up the big questions about the premise such as that "If sinners are allowed to be redeemed from hell and then accepted into heaven, then why would anything on earth matter?"
Why would anyone love a moral life essentially.
@@sidecharacter7165 Bingo...
Actually I think you’re wrong (hear me out).
I think he was perfectly balanced because the protagonist was absolutely terrible at making her point.
In a hell that has corporate slideshows, she sings and uses crayon drawings, her friends all point out how bad she is at conveying her ideas.
Her methods are ridiculous, trust falls to redeem a damned soul? And she’s so clueless, she believes her best example is a guy who’s spent months making no effort at all, just ridiculing her ideas… but has no clue one of her other guests was far closer to redemption.
She’s low effort and keeping Adam low effort balanced them out perfectly.
I could see Adam being on both sides of the argument.
One version of Adam is very similar to his Hazbin Hotel version, being adamantly against Lucifer in particular for being the reason evil exists in humanity. He stole and corrupted his wives, he tricked him into being kicked out of Eden, and all of his children have struggled with sin ever since. A mixture of justified hate for Lucifer's actions and personal guilt for allowing himself to be manipulated. Lucifer is responsible for temptation, and Adam is responsible for original sin. He attacks hell and all of its inhabitants to both attack the one who damned humanity as well as redeem himself for his own failings.
The other version of Adam is more sympathetic to the plight of sinners for the same reason as the previous version. Adam is the original sinner, and all of humanity is vulnerable to sin because of his actions. No matter how badly the most evil people in history were, it could be argued that Adam was worse because he was the only man not born with knowledge of evil, and yet sinned anyway. Despite all of his failures, Adam made it to Heaven. If the father of original sin could make it to Heaven, why not others? This version of Adam has the same personal guilt as the former, but wants to redeem himself by saving his descendants instead of destroying the prince of lies.
@@brettyates7054the "Low effort" thing should be one of the picking points that the show should critique Charlie on though. It seems like the Corprification of morality, treating it like it's some sort of debt that can be paid off later with token gestures. No wonder Amazon picked up the show.
Tbh if I had adams life I would have a very low opinion on women.the very first two women in existence basically damned mankind to eternal suffering and now as the direct ancestor of all humanity you have to watch as your descendants commit evil on one another and after they finally kick the bucket they end up in a place we’re they fall even further into evil.yeah honestly Adam just kinda being a douche is probably the best case scenario
And the fact his BFF is a woman shows he has SOME integrity.
The best comment I found here. Lute might have been his supporting pillar throughout his existence in Heaven. She doesn't even need to be his girlfriend. Just being his comrade, or companion and help him might just be far more valuable to Adam than a romantic relationship.
@@MachineMan-mj4gj Wasn't it somewhere talked about during development that the women's that were working with him were direct descendants of his?
Thought viv talked about that atl?
@@TurKlack Didn't he smile when she came to him when he had been grievously injured?
@@ElmithianDoesn't mean they are in a romantic relationship.
Its kinda funny how Hazbin tries to paint Adam as a crass dudebro like we didn't just watch Angel sexually harassing everyone
Classic woke cult mindset: it is ok when we do it.
Who did Angel sexually harass?
@@kameronbailey6939 Offering unsolicited sex and inapropiate banter would totally count as sexual harassment even in china
@@kameronbailey6939the bartender. Everyone forgets about the bartender.
It's both, half the point of the story is everyone is more morally ambiguous on both sides of the aisle, where everyone is engaging in dismissing absolutism but none of them even understand the rules.
Previously, people enjoyed villains more than the heroes, but they didn't *sympathize* more with them. Everybody loves classic pure evil like the Joker or Maleficent but no one ever felt bad for them or would call them the protagonist. And when you did feel sympathy for them (Azula from Avatar for example) you still felt they needed to go down. Compare those reactions to more modern "villains" and you quickly find that people are rooting for the villains not because they're cool and fun but because *they've* got the struggles, *they've* got the sympathetic motives, *they're* the ones putting work in.
Conan the Cimmerian. The ultimate male protagonist. A man of muscle and brutality. The purest form of the Barbarian. Who are his opponents, his antagonists? Sorcerers, kings, monsters, and unimaginable horrors from hell itself. An entire army of primitive tribes that engage in human sacrifice. Apemen that far surpass Conan's physical strength.
When you have a protagonist like Charlie. You need an adversary that rivals and surpasses all of her power and that of her allies.
If the Villain isn't stronger then the protagonist there is no threat or drive.
It's why the Villain is getting more character development they have to to keep up with the protagonist.
Respectfully, I think Conan's greatest villain in his stories is civilization itself.
@@SoulSoundMuisc Because civilization won't let him punch the asshole noble yammering about his superior blood, in the face. Or the nads, or the fundament, whichever works, the man is not above fighting dirty.
This is why Conan is the ultimate bad ass of all time.
@@SoulSoundMuisc He's more a anti-hero than a villain.
Disneys Wish is probably an even better example with a heroic self-made man that tries to responsibly used the power he acquired through decades of hard work being presented as the villain because he didn't want to fulfill a literal wish of the unimaginably entitled "heroine".
One ting I find fascinating about Adam is that even when not on the job he's still wearing his Exorcist mask even when Lute has hers off, its like he wants to keep his true face hidden for whatever reason, or maybe I'm just thinking to deeply into this.
I believe that it symbolizes the fact that his personality is fundamentally no different from the demons he delights in slaughtering - that he has effectively become the mask he wears.
@@wilberwhateley7569or cause he’s made in the image of God. Which he keeps hidden.
@@wilberwhateley7569he's wearing the mask in the sole purpose to mock demons, same as other exterminators. Their masks looked like dead demons which makes sense... I mean, look at Lucifer's snake Halo and attire with all the apples, he's basically mocking heaven...
It could also be a sort of coping mechanism taken to the logical extreme.
In Watchmen, Rorschach's mask becomes his 'face' of sorts.
Because in his own words when he failed to save a kidnapped girl, and made the murderer his first kill, there was no more Walter Kovachs (Kovaks?). The only thing left was Rorschach.
Perhaps Adam's mask has no longer become a mask. Adam, the First Man no longer exists in his mind. There is only Adam, the Head Exorcist, and the Dickmaster.
When you murdered the idealistic idea of heroism as showcased in modern entertainment these days, the audience will look on the villains to be invested in your media.
Pray tell me what this idealistic idea of heroism is by definition then.
@@mathewunknown8266 Can't speak for LaifuHaike. But for my definition?
I'd honestly say Charlie is that classic hero character. Specifically the aristocrat who actually serves her people. She sees injustice/genocide that in no way effects her and takes a stand against it. She's like an old style musical Disney princess version of an Abraham Lincoln type. Who also believes genocide is wrong and will do anything she can to stop it first by legal means then by going into a war she was kind of forced into by her enemy's aggression and her own attempts at reform enraging the enemy to a new level of aggression.
Adam wouldn't have targeted Charlie if she wasn't trying to ruin his fun/Southern states wouldn't have succeeded if they didn't believe Lincoln would try and take their slaves. Both are the villains for trying to maintain bad systems that benefit them. Adam gets entertainment from genocide/The confederacy gets profit from slavery.
Everything that happens in the show only happens because Charlie picks fights/pushes boundaries/goes to court/goes to war for the sake of strangers. Anyone she personally knew and wanted spared just had to hang out in her house on extermination day. Aka her and her friends were protected by the treaty.
I'd call that an idealistic form of heroism. Fighting to protect those who can't protect themselves simply because you believe it's wrong how they're being treated. What else can you call that but noble or heroic?
@@kevinmccalister4602 that's my point.
@LifuHaiku as well as the video go on about how main cast isn't that good and Adam is sympathetic villain, which I find a psychotic take at best. That's why I wanted to know what they classify is a "classic heroism" which apparently isn't present here.
@@mathewunknown8266 I agree! The main cast are great. Can't wait for next season.
But I do actually think Adam has good reason to hate hell, demons, Lucifer, etc. But only from his perspective. It's like that moment in revenge of the Sith, "From my point of view the jedi are evil!"
But that's what makes them villains. They think their reactions and actions are appropriate/justified but they're wrong. Adam thinks his revenge is justified, when it's not because Lucifer doesn't care about the people you're slaughtering. It just makes Adam feel big and powerful to slaughter people who can't fight back.
Demon's can't even hurt angels without angelic weapons. Alastor didn't even scratch Adam despite being an overlord and going all out. One of the top 13 most powerful beings in hell didn't leave a scratch and got 1 shotted by a holy light wave. There was no threat to heaven no matter how many demons there were until Adam decided to start exterminating them and his army left their weapons all over the place to be reforged.
Adam created the circumstances that killed him, it's delicious irony. Is he a great character? Absolutely. Is he a hero? Only in his own mind.
@@kevinmccalister4602 just one thing, overlords are said to be much weaker than the Sins, and also most of Royals. So its not really top 13.
SFO did a video explaining this 4 years ago called "The Identification With Evil" that lays out how millenial writers identify more with villains than heroes. It was a very clear trend with Disney especially, turning existing villains like Maleficent and Cruella de Vil into heroes of their own story.
Which was one of the rare few and probably last based moment from him.
@@wrongthinker843 true! I called that out in my series, The Pensuke Files Timmydition Part 10.3 - 10.4 where Kyubey’s dad, Pensuke turns heroes into villains and tried to get his son, Kyubey into a path of hyperemotionalism, as well as effeminizing boys to make the magical boy system remotely feasible.
If you saw Madoka magica, you can see where this is going.
Even when considering Terminator, Joker or Darth Vader, we don't want them to win. Their appearance is thrilling, but we would feel cheated if they succeeded. We don't want the Terminator to kill his target (when he was the antagonist), we don't want the Joker to succeed at corrupting Batman and we don't (or at least we didn't) want Darth Vader to recruit Luke for the Empire.
I mean, I did want the Predator to win, but that's because he's such a damn cool character.
Yeah, given how the New Republic turns out, Luke and Vader taking over the Empire is likely the good ending.
@@alexanderharoldsen4178
Disney canon is NOT canon. Anything that screws up the characters and storylines THAT badly is by definition not canon.
The EU New Republic is everything you would hope it would be while still being realistic about it (nothing is perfect).
The Empire was actually correct.
@@John-fk2ky the EU certainly isn't perfect, but it's better than what Disney can produce by a long shot.
I had struggled to define what bothered me so much about Adam in Hazbin Hotel. This is a perfect essay. Thank you for crystalizing what I could not. Good day sir.
I mean at surface level you could just as easily write it off as Adam being a self-indulgent straw-man ex for every woman (but mainly Vivzipop) to get back at through fiction.
Or maybe you are simpleton who just wants to hate it. Who knows. You are btw supporting genocidal maniac, yk, someone who can easily be seen as allegory for certain WW2 German leader.
Adam and Lute had better chemistry than Charlie and Vaggie lol
Yeah when I think about it, a lot of woke relationships are basically mutual simping; there's almost never any vibing.
@@rahn45It's because they don't want to interact with a person with their own thoughts and feelings they want a nice safe archetype that always acts a particular way.
Which for people who claim to hate labels is hilarious.
Charlie and vaggie is basically:
C: I'm gonna do this!
V: don't thats not a good idea
C: To late!
Vaggie has practically no say in their relationship
@@VioletDeathRei "You're the best!"
"No YOU'RE the best!"
"Oh stop it, you're the best!"
"Nuh uuuuh, you're the best!"
Also seemingly the only Hetero couple in the show.
This is why I like the Anti-Hero character that joins the hero more than the hero most of the time. Magus comes to mind.
Doc Holliday in Val Kilmer: The Movie.... Tombstone.
"Hi, Zuko here."
Punisher
Iron man
Barbie movie is a good example. It's debatable whether the movie has a "villain" but it bumbles it's pro woman or pro feminist message so hard, that Ken became more popular than the lead character Barbie. The movie's failure at pointing out why "problematic things" are problematic allowed a movie that was supposed to be blunt "muh patriarchy" lecturing was viewed as Ken learning that he has worth, using that worth to make things better for everybody only for the old guard to use their feminine wilds to reestablish their matriarchy.
Personally I think that the main reason it turns out this way is because the director expected the audience to just accept "problematic thing is problematic" and didn't feel the need to explain what hypothetical consequences there were to the problems at hand. Even the corporate Barbie CEO guy just shouts about how Barbie and Ken need to stay traditional with no explanation of how their exploring the real world is bad for business. It's almost like the feminist director has never questioned the narrative fed to her and thinks no one else will either.
also who the lead was did not help
Lute is "best girl" material and John Smith did nothing wrong.
Amen to that.
Who? Sorry there are just a lot of John Smith's in fiction and IRL. Doctor Who even goes by that alias.
@@kevinmccalister4602
Obergruppenführer John Smith from _The Man in the High Castle_
@@Mr.Ambrose_Dyer_Armitage_Esq. Thank you : ) I watched the video 4 days ago and forgot what the aforementioned Nazi's name was.
@@kevinmccalister4602
No problem, he was a good character and well-acted by Rufus Sewell.
It kind of also reminds me how Sir Pentious from hazbin tends to steal the show from all the characters you're supposed to care about more. The fact that he isn't a main protagonist allowed him to be a lot more fun than the rest of the main cast because the writers are not afraid to make him the butt of the joke.
bid of a bad example since his only real purpose is emasculation.
The choice to help Thrawn is also supportable when you remember Thrawns ideals and leadership would essentially “perfect” the Empire and make the galaxy in a both free and orderly, pleasant place to live. He’s basically the hero.
It depends how much freedom is sacrificed to attain that order. It's inherent that some force will be used to pacify the galaxy, but going too much on the "peace and order" can justify decisions like genociding species that are deemed too troublesome.
I don't remember how much Thrawn had classic villainous traits, but the empire was bad for more than one reason.
Also don’t forget in EU at least the Empire was the Only thing that would save the Galaxy from the Evil Yuuzhang Vong. Thrawn was the only one who saw the Whole Picture
@@devildolphin2102 That was a bit of a retcon. Thrawn was originally a representative of the Empire's "New Order" aspect and why it had so many supporters even after Palpatine's defeat. It did bring order and peace after the clone wars - which originally were implied (in the very novels he was introduced in) to have been a SERIES of wars that dragged out for decades - but his tactics and willingness to do things like utilize clones made it obvious he was still the bad guy even if he came across as a much more reasonable and charismatic villain than Darth Vader and The Emperor. Which reinforced the rightness of the EU's New Republic even with it's problems.
@@canisblack
What?
Dude since The Thrawn Trilogy by Zhan Thrawn was going on about needing the Empire to be Massively Strong for a “Enemy”. The Vong were the Main Baddies of the EU
@@devildolphin2102 I remember that as a retcon established in the _Legacy of Thrawn_ duology, written some years later.
"Would you want the hordes of hell wandering into your living room, because some hotel owner says so."
* Looks at Britain *
Wait a minute!
Holy shit you're right
Oh my gosh! 💀
Why you say something so controversial yet so brave?!
Coming to America...right NOW!
Also North America and the rest of Europe.
Tell me you're conservatives without saying you're conservatives.
Imagine in Hazbin Hotel they introduce Cain as a way to keep Adam off their back. They'd make the villian even more interesting
Then we’d have the literal father of all family arguments to watch.
I'm hoping Abel takes Adam place, the first man made is now replaced by the first man in heaven
Pool's closed.
I thought it would be interesting if Adam reaffirmed killing sinners then Lucifers tells him to kill Cain to prove this is what he believes. This would at least given Charlie some reason to her beliefs about the extermination. Also even if Abel is in heaven they are probably still strained to Adam. Then that is how he dies protecting Cain from the other exterminators.
@@jojorose648 I had an idea that its Able that helps with the holding off of the extermination. Stating that if they redem Cain within the year they'd agree to Charlie's plan. Adam follows along with it cause it's his SON, and a new plot line is made. Able and Adam want to see Cain again and the hotel gets officiated . It becomes a nove dynamic
Considering a lot of modern “heroes” are self inserts and that these people are diametrically opposed to a lot of the viewers in every way it’s no surprise that we as those viewers often relate to the villain. Their villains are our heroes and their heroes are our villains.
Something something End of Days something something evil becomes good, etc.
I just remember listening to some of the stuff about Wonder Woman 1984 and how the writers wanted to make the antagonist basically be Trump.....by making him a guy who is trying to give everyone what they want. Truly, the most heinous of villians. I couldn't finish the film because I was so bored, and watching it at night, I just fell asleep.
But the bits I saw beforehand were the authors completely forgetting that they were supposed to be making a Wonder Woman film, not a Cheetah film since it really felt the film was more about her than WW.
@@cp1cupcake Wait...the bad guy of WW1984 was bad for trying to grant everyone's wishes, but the bad guy of wish was bad for NOT granting everyone's wishes and the "hero" was regarded as heroic for doing so.
Where is the logic?
@@christopherbravo1813 Different corporations. Wonder Woman 1984 does at least have a good basis for a Villain, Wish...doesn't have that good of a moral compass.
@@Spino-hx2mr fair enough.
Is it ever stated what happens to all the souls that get purged during one of those cullings in Helluva Boss/Hazbin Hotel? Adam could've been unintentionally helping souls get a second chance at divinity by removing them from Hell, which is a pretty objectively terrible place no matter what Ms. Medrano claims. What she shows is not a great place you'd want to be in.
Yeah, one of the dudes reincarnating in heaven is....interesting. That could literally mean that death works differently, and if the writers were better maaaaaybe MAYBE they'd see an Adam return after his second death that has a different perspective. But that's all wishful thinking lol.
@@picklepepper900part of me want to see adam just become doom guy, His anger at daemons and well...cucked by lucifer twice would probably spire himself to enact a self-deleting by the skin of his nose plan to still purge daemons.
While being an ass obviously should he be as arch suspected, reincarnated as a daemon.
Vivziepop did clarify what happens when sinners got killed by angel weapons. They become part of the land, part of the environment. If you look closely, there are random eyes on buildings and walls in hell. Those are the sinners that got killed.
@@EmperorTyraelthat’s… actually terrifying. Imagine being stuck forever as a curb.
@@elijahhayter3026 If you had kids, would they be a chip off the ol' block?
I've kind of felt like Adam and Lute have a very neat 'War Buddies' dynamic - not necessarily romantic or sexual (although that's certainly a high possibility considering they were never seen without each other), but they definitely had a far more interesting dynamic compared to the Mary Sue Charlie and the blank slate Vaggie. Lute never seemed to disrespect Adam in any way, and while Adam could give her some shit, it always came across as very casual banter, the way that two people who'd been through combat with each other would do. And her reaction when Adam died was definitely very real and hinted at something very strong there, and in that one moment Adam and Lute's relationship had more development and intrigue in just a few seconds than Charlie/Vaggie did the entire season.
Vaggie is basically just 'Generic Female Love Interest' at this point, the kind of character that, if Charlie were male, everyone would be screaming as being a 'sexist caricature' meant only to serve as a romantic prize for the MC. Yet when it's two females suddenly Vaggie's incredibly shallow and uninteresting character is overlooked? While she's nobody's favorite as far as I can tell, fans are certainly sold on the Charlie/Vaggie dynamic, and I can't help but ask why, because there's really not much to them. Vaggie isn't even a foil or a voice of reason for Charlie because Charlie disregards her input all through the season, and Vaggie ends up just going along with everything. She's nothing more than Charlie's cheerleader, meant to just stand by her side and champion everything Charlie does without much real thought of her own. She _IS_ the bland female love interest in a nutshell.
If we saw more of her anger, like it was hinted at by her song with Camilla, or maybe a want to return to heaven it could have at least given her more meat to her character.
So this basically good ol cliche shounen thrope but with homosexual main character
It's the exact same with Poison Ivy. They have completely stripped that character of all of her personality, goals, ambitions. She's just Harley's girlfriend now. Just a blank romantic slate. Hell, the "bland female love interest" trope is generous when it comes to Poison Ivy now. She is just a complete husk of her former self. Basically Harley's sex toy. When was the last time Poison Ivy tried to destroy Gotham? Or fought Batman?
We can’t have that anymore, because suddenly these villains have become “feminist icons”
If they were realistic lesbians couples are pretty toxic. % wise they are very abusive. Cause 1 stil needs to be the man or leader type whatever
This is why I like Frieren. Its been too long since I watched a genuien hero party fighting agains actually evil demons.
I like her because she is an proper elf.
The immortal life span is really well done.
I have seen a few times where immortal life span is well done and I wish I saw a lot more.
Frequently though, it isn't done that well or the story doesn't focus on it.
The only issue I have is the implication that the Demons are only evil as a result of societal conditioning.
@@christopherbravo1813 Where does it imply that? I'm pretty sure that it is made clear that the vast majority of demons are basically high functioning animals with psychopathy that happened to learn how to mimic human behavior in order to get the humans to let their guard down enough to eat their souls (or whatever it is they do) and that any non-psychopathic demons are aberrations rather than a substantial portion of the population. And that any "culture" which arises from their species is naturally going to be adapted to their particular mode of existence rather than some overarching "societal conditioning"
@@christopherbravo1813Where is that implied I'm only on episode 19 but I'm pretty sure that it's just shown them being biologically inclined to be sociopaths who want to kill humans.
The "villains" are also more heroic than the "heroes". Now we all love Sauron more than Galadriel thanks to the Dark Lord Bezos.
the correct answer is rings of power has nothing to do with Tolkien's work.
"Heroes" out right act like villains and are utterly selfish and self serving in all modern current day stories.
I have to disagree with you on that. I think that you might have to put more into perspective in the story. Of course you might think that the villains are actually the heroes, but that's only the perspective and a point of view from those characters.
..... damn, you are right. They did add some stupidity to him and made him somewhat pathetic at time but this made him only more sympathetic. It does not help that he basically is made by narration of the story into 'unlikely hero' who despite all worries and fears stands up to a literal genocidal maniac. Darn.
It's more due to post modernist books like Game of Thrones, ROP just added woke trash
Considering that the "good guy" is a literal Satan then no wonder people prefer the villian
I have seen a show where Satan is the protagonist. It's rather amusing. It does fall off a bit in the later seasons though.
Which is especially ironic when you consider "Satan" isn't a name, it literally just means "adversary."
The only way they make this work is when they do a complete personality swap.
The show Lucifer practically swapped the described personalities of Michael and Lucifer to make their storyline work.
Hazbin has Lucifer just be some depressed dad, meanwhile Alastor has the *actual* personality of Lucifer (yes him being "likeable when he's calm" is you falling for it, he was absolutely mortified that there was a chance of people thinking he sacrificed himself for others, he believes he is above everyone and everyone owes him everything)
They only care about labels and not content or character.
@@TheTwinkelminkelson It's a title...
@@TheTwinkelminkelsonSo it IS a name...
Most names have some original meaning, usually just a word.
This brings me back to an idea for a story I came up with some time ago.
It begins with a powerful demonic entity having just triumphed over his arch-nemesis, an archetypal "traditional" hero in every sense of the word, which leads to one of his companions-a priestess-banishing him to a sort of Hell dimension as a desperate last resort. Decades would pass before a young dark mage summons him back into the world, upon which the demon immediately begins seeking out new villains to recruit and heroes to destroy.
However, he would quickly come to realize that the world has changed since his banishment. Practically all of the current era's "heroes" are at best Style over Substance and at worst outright evil in of themselves, whereas the "villains" are often more sympathetic and understandable than the heroes who routinely slaughter them. This new state of affairs would drive mr dark lord into a series of bizarre situations, such as attempting to join the heroes due to them being closer to true evil than the supposed villains.
Simply put, the point is to poke fun at the exact phenomenon described in this video.
Please tell us more!
@harrell5009 I don't want to spoil *too* much-I do plan on making a book out of this-but I'd be glad to share more.
For instance, the kid sorcerer who summoned mr bad guy back into the world is intended to be the other main protagonist alongside the big dude, and like most of the other "villains" he's not really all that evil.
His backstory is that he was part of a clan of dark magic practitioners who were descended from evil mages that once served the demon MC, and had over time begun to venerate him as a deity of sorts. However, despite the unholy nature of their magic powers and that they were professed servants of the single greatest evil their world had ever known, they mostly just kept to themselves. They didn't cause any trouble, they didn't raise legions of monsters to seek bloody vengeance for their master's defeat, or anything of the sort. at the time the kid was born, the society had all but sworn off committing any grand acts of evil and only a small handful regarded the MC as any more than a fairy tale.
Enter the land's most powerful "hero"-the officially recognized successor of the man who gave his life in battle with the demon lord, in fact-who upon hearing of a society of dark mages sequestered away in the mountains had taken it upon himself to find them. and when he found them, and saw that they were no threat whatsoever, he did the heroic thing and massacred all of them. The kid only survived because his parents hid him away before the so-called "hero" was able to find them.
Truly alone and having lost everything he ever loved in a matter of minutes, the young mage resorted to an ancient forbidden blood ritual that would supposedly call the master his people once served back into the world. The original founders of their enclave intended for their descendants to sacrifice themselves in said ritual once they were numerous enough to enact it, but by the time that they had those numbers the idea of killing themselves and their friends and families for this ritual no longer appealed to them. Now, however, that point was moot since they were all dead anyway.
so the boy spent hours gathering up as many of his people's corpses as he could before using their blood to enact the ritual. This very ritual, of course, is how the Demon main character returned to the world to menace it anew.
personality-wise, he's pretty barebones at the moment. Despite his dark powers, the kid is still just that. A kid. On top of that, he doesn't have much of a taste for senseless acts of evil, a trait that his dark master will indeed try (and fail, sometimes hilariously so) to get rid of.
Right now the plan is for him to eventually come into his own-not as a villain, but as a true Hero.
Honestly, I recommend you play Overlord 1, since it is basically that premise where you wake up and all the "heroes" are so evil and stupid that you the literal king of the evil faction get treated like a liberating hero.
That sounds good, where can I read it?
@@alexdedich6377 As soon as I actually get this written and published, I'll be sure to let you know!
You talking about Asoka reminded me of a novel I'm reading. The main character is extremely overpowered. By the age of 10 he has become a literal demigod who eats dragons for lunch.(often literally). Well there is a scene where he is learning to use a shield.(before this he mostly just dodged attacks). Being taught by a lowly new adventurer. The teacher knows who he is teaching so he steps in and uses all his strength in a baseball swing wirh his mace and the MC takes it with his shield. And immediately goes flying across the room shocking everyone. Everyone can't believe it and they start trying to figure out what happened before finally realizing.... the MC is a skinny 10 year old boy. Who is actually small for his age. He has no trouble receiving a strike from above(which is how most people try to hit him.) But he simply did not weigh enough to take a hit directly from the front without flying across the room. Well I could only imagine Asoka flying across the room like that to the shock of everyone.
That’s actually pretty funny to think about. What’s the book called?
@@elijahhayter3026 the death mage who doesn't want a 4th time. The story is about a guy who has been reincarnated twice but both his original life and his first reincarnated one are absolutely horrible (partly because of the god of reincarnations mistake). So he loses it after his 2nd life and goes off on the god. The god doesn't want him interfering with his plan for the world he is being sent to for his 3rd life so curses him so he will take himself out. Fortunately it doesn't work out the way the god planned because the goddess of life on that planet interfered(there is a reason but I won't spoil it). She couldn't undo the curses but she gave him her blessings and he ends up trying to survive in the new world where half the population and half of the world's gods want him dead.
@@markcarpenter6020 oh, yeah. I’ve been reading the manga. Forgot that was in there.
@@elijahhayter3026 I read the light novel. It has a lot more detail than the manga. How far into the story has the manga gotten? He is almost 13 in the light novel and has two kids with different demigods now
@@markcarpenter6020 up to the point where he jumps into the refugee adventurer trio.
For a story, the Antagonist is usually the one who sets things in the story into motion. They are the cause of why the story itself is happening, the Hero is supposed to be one who resolves whatever issues are caused by the Antagonist.
But in modern writing, when you have the mary sue protagonist, they cannot face any adversity or really be threatened in any way and are always going to win no matter what. Nothing bad can ever happen to the writer's precious pet character.
This leads to a situation where they just sort of exist in the story, there is no journey or anything, they just win and they do so because they're to good guy.
Not always with an antagonist there.
The antagonist is there as an opponent to the protagonist, a lot of that comes into play with some of the sports stories and similar where the antagonist is another capable competitor there. He's not a villain, but someone that the protagonist is pitted up against, and they had nothing to do with setting up the tournament most of the time there.
One of the main disconnects is that thanks to "modern storytelling," a lot of the heroes are essentially the heroes only because the author says so in a lot of cases, and the villains also are the ones that actually get decent character development...that turns into a mess of, essentially, cardboard cutout "heroes"
Think that fat woman writer just project her self into it. But thats the cult left for u
@@AzraelThanatos I'm with you, but I'd also put that a lot of modern writers do not seem to understand that real adversity is what makes characters interesting, not which side they are on and very few people choose evil. That the writers are so batshit to not understand this makes them frequently make antagonists which the audience wish would win.
There is an author I am not really a fan of because she took it to extremes. She tends to write trilogies where the first two books are everything slowly going wrong for the protagonist, to the extent that end of book two in multiple trilogies include the progatonist faking their deaths after they were sentanced to be executed.
Knowing this show is they ever inculcated eve in the story they would make her a lesbian girl boss hooking up with Lilith, and They would also make it so that she did nothing wrong despite dooming humanity
A mark of a great writer is the ability to make us forget that the main characters are almost always free from the threat of death as much as possible… needless to say it’s been a while since we had truly great writers
No, it really isn't that hard. Seen / read plenty of shows / material where it appeared MC was in danger (and few time actually was), and several of those works were badly written outside of that.
Stop simplifying stuff if you want to make actual discussion about it.
There is a simple solution though. Not always appropriate but an easy fix when it is. Make the villain threaten the heroes with something that isn't death. Make it possible for the heroes to fail their quest, or a step in their quest, without dying.
See how Thanos collected the stones in infinity war. He beats the heroes again and again and it makes perfect sense. That's because losing a single stone to Thanos does not mean game over for the heroes. We all believe it can happen because the story keeps going.
@@Lilith_Harbinger one anime I watched, World Trigger, has a system where characters cant die in fights. They get recalled back to base. So whole tension is in them succeeding before being taken out in fight, or defending the base where they can be killed. There are outliners but for most part thats how it works.
The writers invert the positions.
They are actually writing about the villains' winning over the heroes. They write themselves as the protagonists, doing what they wish they could do for real, and what they wish to do is by no means good for Man or Civilization. They project what they really seek to do on to the strawman figures pretending to be antagonists, but they let slip whom they fear when they write one or more of them in the mode of a hero.
Rather, as what _we_ consider a hero.
What needs to be remembered is what the Ancients knew: a hero is nothing more than someone that embodies the ideas of a people, a stand-in for the target audience, and as such how they win is a showcase of what is believed to be the correct paradigm (and thus behavior) that ought to be followed- and thus what is legitimate authority to be obeyed.
These writers are telling us _by how they write these characters_ what they believe is correct (and thus wins in any conflict) and what is not (and thus loses), showing who has legitimacy and who does not. The reason they freakout when the audience does not agree is that, as they see it, _the audience committed HERESY!_
We know how that's taken around here.
Imagine that these writers are Chaos cultists (because they are), and they use entertainment to propagandize their religion (because they do), and you will have no problem comprehending that this explanation for their own reactions to audience hostility towards their work is far more accurate than any other you have heard- and that includes _why_ they suck at their jobs. (They don't see their job as entertaining you; they see their job as converting you to their cult., only they are nowhere near as good at it as their predecessors were just a generation or so before.)
If they were smart (they are not) then they would do behind-the-scene post-mortems on what the audience (that they are attempting to convert) received warmly and why so they can dial in their propaganda to actually achieve their goal, like competent propagandists do such as those that make their fortunes selling you crap you don't need (because yes, advertising and marketing _is_ propaganda- Ed Bernays literally wrote the book on the subject saying so).
Fortunately they are neither smart nor competent. It is unlikely that they will learn from their failures, in large part because their cult dogma makes doing so much harder than what is ordinarily the case, and will continue to rely on croneyism and networking to remain in any position to keep failing at it instead of doing a more useful thing like testing hemp neck ties.
However, there is a catch, and the leaders in these circles know it- some even brag about it: they need only get past us to our children and their power is secured, as there is nothing to stop them from pillaging undefended minds and converting them into the next Cultist cohort- complete with incentives to turn on you.
That is what _should_ be kept in mind as we resist this crap. We are in the way of what they really want: to steal our future and make it theirs by stealing our children.
found the malal worshipper.
This deserves far more likes.
Man, you need to let off the D&D campaigns for a bit.
@@istvankarolyfarkas6125 Ave Malal
Chaos shall be self consumed
@@istvankarolyfarkas6125 The Emperor shall pay for what he did (To Malal)
When the writer's themselves have insane morals or are straight up bad people, it's no surprise the "heroes" they write end up being less likable than the villains.
I am with this.
That's true, but that doesn't work for Hazbin Hotel. The entire point of the show is to get the sinners to stop sinning, to rehabilitate people sent to hell. And it doesn't make all angels evil monsters or something, it shows that Adam and his exterminators have to be kept secret by Sera because when the other angels learn about it, guess what, Emily immediately joins Charlie's mission. And remind me, who's the most powerful character we have seen so far? Lucifer. A man.
It would work better if these creatives had a better understanding of the religion that they draw the most terms from.
@@quantumvideoscz2052 Satan is a submissive bottom, Emily is a naive child, and none of the sinners within Hell would even consider placing their trust in God.
@@quantumvideoscz2052What's the point of living a moral life on earth if you can find redemption in hell? That's the main moral conundrum here
I unironically wanted John Smith from the man in the high castle to have a redemption arc once the Greater Reich killed his son.
Evil people are just misunderstood says Hollyweird.
This reminds me a little bit about a game series called Killzone, where long story short, they sucked so much at writing the protagonists that they made everyone sympathize and even root for the antagonists, despite them being the enemies you fight. It's not 100% akin to what is described in the video, but it's another example nonetheless.
Wasnt the whole point that the good guys weren't as squeaky clean as they seemed?
@@orkface234Shouldn't matter, they called themselves the good guys. That is how it worked in the history books.
They could have made so much money if they made a dedicated Killzone spin-off series where you play as quirky Helghast troopers. It'd be refreshing to play as a "honest" morally dubious faction fighting an enemy that hides it's shady activities behind a veneer of virtue. I know they're the British Space Nazis, but at least they're honest about it!
Ayy! I'm not the only Sony Orphan!
Know what's funny? Oda has a rep for refusing to kill off characters, but in damn near every arc, you still believe the Straw Hats are in danger and could lose everything.
Very true
Almost in every Arc they are beaten into every inch of their life. Especially when Luffy had to fight not one, but two Emperors. Makes you think, "yeah, they're fucked..."
Oda does threat escalation fairly well.
These “It’s so over” moments end up making the “We’re so back” moments more impactful.
Some established characters still died in some of the arcs...
It's simply because what used to be a hero is now classed as a villain by many modern writers and the "heroes" are self inserts, hence them being unlikable shallow a'holes.
And it's reached its final form here by going full "bad is good and good is bad" by making Satan and the hosts of the Hell the protagonists and God and the angels the antagonists.
@snappycenter7863 Tbf if thing are to be believed all the fun things happen in hell and heaven is boring.
@@robcampion9917 Sounds like something the creator of this show wants you to think.
@snappycenter7863 Depends on which version of the bible you go by but a lot of the fun thing we do are/were sins.
@@robcampion9917 What specific versions are you talking about? Us enjoying things that are sins says a lot about us.
It's the Simpsons Skinner meme "am I out of touch? No! It's the children who are wrong" just replace "out of touch" with "corrupt" and "children" with "Bible".
Honest to god the to bigger issues of Hazbin hotel is the pacing, the time they were given (i mean 8 eps almost 30 minuites each is not nearly enough time to tell a story of this magnitued) and the inexpirience of the writter.
The worldbuilding sucks too...
Apparently God doesn't exist in the show since Charlie wasn't inspired by "Uncle J", and the Angels in all their years of existence _don't_ know what qualifies a soul for Heaven...
@ellugerdelacruz2555 True and that lack of world building can been seen to Helluvaboss to a certain extent.
God does exist in the show. But he’s kinda implied to be too powerful to be seen, since Adam and Lucifer seem to replicating him by their black gloves. And God judges his creations at every second, whether they are man or angel.
That Man in the High Castle at the end was great reminder. The most interesting characters were John Smith and Takeshi Kido and you can't convince me otherwise.
This video bears truth, possibly the complete one.
All praise Arch.
I just dont want to engage in media which wasnt designed for me, by people who hate me. Not even a hatewatch. Apathy is death, so give them apathy.
Apathy is death.
And they make the villains better people than the “heroes” and seem to almost always be the clear good guys in their stories and the “heroes” are clearly the bad guys. Wish being a great example.
"Be fearful of what you wish for you might just get it" is an adage that survived for millinea in every single culture that was ever relevant what the hell were they thinking ?
Even if you have an invincible hero who never loses, you can add investment by at least going through the motions of tension rather than letting them constantly win with not even the illusion of difficulty. Ironically it's a Pixar quote that I've heard that sums it up: "People will be more invested in seeing a character try than they will seeing them succeed." (paraphrasing).
My mind is going to something like Hajime no Ippo. Takamura is someone who we know will win - he's canonically stated to be the strongest boxer in the entire series, and most of his fights are such a foregone conclusion that he can screw around and have little challenge. He's OHKOed people even when he, who is normally suited to be a heavyweight, was forced to fight as JUNIOR MIDDLEWEIGHT and his desire to win the belts all the way through Middleweight to Heavyweight is treated as a foregone conclusion, something that will eventually happen and a lot of the holdup is just that his gym doesn't want to speed him through it too quickly. As Takamura is a deuteragonist, a lot of his fights are meant to be shorter and usually comedic in nature. However, when Morikawa wants Takamura to be placed in a tough fight, he will show Takamura struggle by putting him up against an equal like Bryan Hawk or David Eagle.
The Hawk fight in particular is one of the best fights possibly in Shounen history, and it's one where Takamura is constantly fighting tooth and nail, putting in an effort not only against Hawk as a boxer but against his own temperament and his stamina. Someone going in can know who wins the fight, they can know that Takamura is canonically the strongest boxer, and they can even have seen Takamura completely knock the shit out of every boxer up to that point (it was even after he KOed a bear). Having meta knowledge of the series, you can pretty much tell that it's likely Takamura is going to win, but the struggle he goes through to get to that point is important. If Takamura simply went through his multiple weight class conquest and never had a single fight that challenges him because "well he's the strongest boxer, of course he's going to win" then he'd come across as horribly written.
Oh, Takamura also is a jackass and the writing acknowledges him as being a jackass and when he behaves poorly he's never rewarded for it - when he fights Eagle he even is played so much as the heel that the crowd in-universe starts to boo him. Maybe the reason why I think of Takamura in this context is because he shares many of the pitfalls of the modern writer's "hero" except his writing is fully aware of how to do it in a way that works.
I think One Punch Man pulls off the invincible hero who never loses the best because it's made very clear that the world around him isn't, and that he actually cares very little for his fellow man or that world. Though when he starts to make friends he starts having things in his life that he wants to protect, that he would get emotional over should something happen to them. This is essentially the arc all invincible heroes need to go through to become interesting. It's not the saving or being unable to save someone they care about that's important: It's showing that they DO care about things outside themselves.
And jotaro in the Jojo bizarre adventure stardust crusaders
Well when you take Vivziepop's older works into consideration, I'm pretty sure she is a furry, so hell being full of furries makes some sense. Also she's had some of these character designes for a decade or so, so I don't think they were even designed with Hazbin Hotel in mind.
Girl Bosses would be a better villains than heroes. Heroes need to be flawed and relatable
Weren't girl bosses a former antagonist, like in Devil Wears Prada?
Ironically, the girl boss is the main villain of this series.
@@justice8718 Sarah aka Eve aka Roo
Luke also lost his hand.
Aragorn served and led armies.
He survived as many around him die.
Making him a baddass one lucky arrow away from being a deadass.
Adam and lute are my favorite hazbkn hotel characters for the points you mentioned.
And i will add one more.
All humans souls decend from adam and most end up in hell.
It is rather insulting that most of your offspring is the worst kind of evil.
So he is punishing them for failing.
For the sheer Arrogance of being of his bloodline and not doing the right thing.
Imagine spending thousends of years watchig you offspring become youtube-wont-let-me-say-it.
After sometime you stop caring for them and just want them dead.
He is also from an time where the weak get eaten.
Meanwhile charlie and co are potrayed as the victems of an "unjust" extermination.
I want them too fail.
I want heaven too be proven correct in there actions.
I think it is most telling they avoid the god question.
Kinda hard to revolt against someone who can end all existiance.
Expanding on Luke losing his hand, I remember there is a bit of subtext about how he and Vader have both lost body parts.
I'm excited for next season because I think the Angels and Sara in particular are hiding a secret. I think they did something to God in this universe. It says the angels created Adam, Eve, and Lilith. But where did the angels come from? Is this creation story a lie?
Sara keeps saying in the you didn't know song that there are things you don't understand secrets you don't know. What if this universe's God is imprisoned? Or a Lovecraftian nightmare creature? What if the exterminations were needed as a sacrifice to keep the prison strong and God contained? Where do souls go when they die the second time to angelic weaponry? What if the secret Sara knows justifies everything, but just knowing the secret on a large scale could shatter the universe itself? What if Sara knew the entire time that souls could be redeemed, but there's a hidden consequence to it?
I can hardly wait for next season for this reason alone! : )
Note, Sir Pentious died from an angelic death beam so that's not a weapon it's an ability. But his appearance and Sara's reaction could have been an Oh no my secret is out! Instead of an Oh no Charlie was right!
Didn't lute be implied to betray Adam though?
And Charlie and that "seraphim" are annoying Tumblr "girl boss" trope I am starting to really despise. They always written sort of like unlikeable rude man hating or "always right" sort of mary-sue-ish characters.
@@wingedflyingforce5139 It is a very specifically worded statement on Lute's part so I see the confusion.
She said, Adam's dead. Your deal is done and I'm in charge now.
Not, Adam's dead. Our deal is done and I'm in charge now.
Implication could be that Adam and Lilith had a deal and since he's dead your deal is done. Can't wait for next season : )
@@kevinmccalister4602 no, one word change in this case isn't enough, and if still can mean betrayal.
And I don't think I want to see hotel anymore. I think I will stick to helluva a boss, which minus ONE episode, doesn't have a mary-sue who the plot bends around nor written like a Tumblr story.
The Adam death sort of turned me off of the show. It is giving me certain vibes from stuff I have seen before and hate.
Hazbin Hotel spends too much time fetishizing furries, gays, animals, and satan. They should've spent more time fetishizing good writing, but that would ruin their Mary Sue self insert fantasy and strange obsession with justifying satan's behavior.
It's annoying Dave Filoni has the gal to steal from better writers just to assassinate their stories and characters in his boring fanfiction.
Frankly the most annoying thing is none of these writers research the stories and material they're referencing.
Sometimes writers try to be too clever and indulgent, they lose self awareness and end up being a bit too revealing.
Hell in this universe is never shown to have organised or systemic torture, it’s bad because the people there torture each other. How do they torture each other? With unrestricted sex, drugs, violence and an absence of any law enforcement, they torture each other with hyper liberalism.
@@brettyates7054 They understand on a subconscious level that what they are doing and advocating for is creating hell on earth but are unable to admit it and express it consciously.
Dave Failoni has been ruining Star Wars ever since TCW. Maybe even earlier. Hell George is partially responsible for ruining Star Wars as well. He did work on TCW too and this shit show proudly stands *against* the source material.
People are right when they claim Failoni is Georges pupil. He literally took all the worst traits from that man without any of the benefits.
@@brettyates7054hell sounds more like a typical modern party house with some REAL psychopaths. The world is not American lol
@@SilentSpringzzz neither am I, liberalism, progressivism, conservatism… etc are not concepts unique to America.
A big issue with the idea that Charlie is in the right about Sinners being redeemable is - most of them are objectively evil people whom do not want to be redeemed. Because that would mean being held accountable for their evil deeds that got them in Hell to begin with. Outside of a handful of Sinners, all we see are evil monsters who relish in being evil.
Why should they be given a chance to be redeemed when they've done all they can to not deserve or want it?
EXACTLY- BUT NAAAAAHHH- that would make the show actually interesting and complex! Something Vivziepop isn't interested in despite the premise implying that would be the case…
exactly. Even the ones we see trying only want it because Hell is a bad place to live. They don’t genuinely have a change of heart they just hate the consequences of their actions.
Furthermore, WHERE IS GOD AND ALL THE SINFUL HSITORICAL FIGURES IN THIS ARGUMENT!?
You's think that the Daughter of the Devil trying to redeem sinners would be of some interest to Charlie's "Uncle J" but NO. Yet another missed opportunity...
@@ellugerdelacruz2555 Imagine if we get Cain or Adolf or Temujin. Some real heavy hitters of human history:
@@shadowofhawk55 Alastor already said it in the pilot episode "Of course not! That's whacky nonsense. Redemption, OH, the nonexistent humanity! Nononono . . . I don't think there is anything left that could save such lowsome sinners. The chance they were given was the life they lived before, the punishment is this! There is no undoing what is done!" this is something the writers know and don't care, I hope the second season has better writing and they respect the world they are creating a little bit and stop manipulating everything for Charlie's convenience.
also when adam says that he made all of them he is correct (regarding most of them). he is the origin and father of all humans, the very top of all their faimly trees. thus all sinners are his corrupted offspring, many the worst of the worst. that fact alone is another good reason for behavior and why he advocates for and enjoys his raids into hell. he wants to fight his corrupted decendants and keep his new home free from their corruption since he lost his first home thanks to that.
also if we consider the possible cannonicity of the genesis flood, then it almost lead to the loss of all life on earth, something adam likely had to witness. the feeling of resposebility and desire for redemption such experienses can create would be maddening, had he just been there that time to chase away lucifer he could have averted all this.
however if we were to consider that he knows what happens to those he hits with his holy laser beams, then dispite everything he has seen he still has the most minute of care for even the most corrupted reflections of his decendants as he grants them purification, redemption and a release from what he himself stated was an eternal punishment. or he had allways been able to do this but choose not to untill now, just to get one up against lucifer and his deluded spawn- he redeemed one before her, he did it first for they are and allways will be the forces of and the source of corruption and while he too played an indirect role in that, he sought redemption rathern than embraceing it like lucifer and lillith. he is and allways will be better than them.
edit: also i think that a possible way for the balance of power to be restorerd between heaven and hell is that the usually rather busy angle of death learning of just what the heck has transpired and takes a trip to hell to confisacte the stolen weapons, permanently remove a lot of the thiefs and conduct a one angle campaign of shock and awe to hammer home the point it took them once, it can easily take them all again and that if they attack heaven, they will be the target of its undivided attention and no overlord or even lucifer can change the outcome.
Most likely, his cockiness could be hiding depression. Watching your children never learning and dying again and again even after Jesus.
@@zerotodona1495 and like i said about the flood, if that stuff is cannon then even if god said he would not do that again adam is watching his decendants walk a path that almost got them all eradicated before and might again, by their own hands or by god changeing his mind because they cross an unforgivable line.
@@zerotodona1495 I think he uses his dickmaster personality to hide his real self for the sake of protecting Lute from the morningstars and to progress his redemption plan without anyone noticing. “Dickmaster” hangs out and bangs random ladies, Adam doesn’t.
And this is important because by Lute pairing up with Adam, she will be the one to hold Eve’s old intended role.
Yeah the fact they don't really mention Jesus is for the best. After seeing your progeny still failing even when Jesus gave them such an easy out makes it hard to sympathize with the denizens of hell.
@@gottesurteil3201 If it was a universe where Jesus Christ came to the earth, Adam would be far more ticked off by the Sinners in Hell.
Also known as the John Walker effect
Adam was too based for Vizzie to keep around.
Edit: Also Hell is Forever is an absolute banger of a song.
And what exactly is “based” about a violent, sadistic narcissist that has no self-awareness? I‘ll admit that he’s charismatic and that his “Hell is Forever” number was outstanding, but I see nothing praiseworthy about his beliefs or his rotten personality.
@@wilberwhateley7569 What was "based" was that all of that was aimed at literal infernal creatures that earned their place down there.
@@pollointerestelar7439 Episode six makes it very clear that even the seraphim don’t know what gets a soul sent to Heaven or Hell - the idea that *anyone* earned their place is a huge a priori assumption on the part of the angels.
@@wilberwhateley7569 But it is obvious how things work without needing to be told to someone's face, in heaven everyone coexists peacefully, in hell everyone tries to kill each other and increase their power by buying souls, although it is not known what *exactly* takes one to heaven, there is no doubt that good people go to heaven and bad people go to hell as a standard.
@@pollointerestelar7439 Once again, this is an a priori assumption - how do you know that the real reason Heaven is so peaceful is the fact that the general population has its needs looked after (which means less conflict due to there being little or no competition for basic necessities) while Hell is violent because of a lack of resources/corruption that focuses most of the resources at the top of the pyramid? This idea of “good/bad people = good/bad society” is a gross oversimplification of the socio-economic relationships that coalesce in given environments.
These things you keep insisting are “obvious” are anything but to anyone who has even a basic understanding of economics and sociology…
I dunno. Think it's kinda funny when the good guys are so insufferable that you're wishing for terrible things to happen to them.
...well, far too many writers came from the Tumblr/fanfiction spaces and while there are some VERY GOOD fanfic writers that really should get into doing more of their own stuff...
...let's be fair. Many of these writers and showrunners unironically think that the "villains" of most older series are Draco In Leather Pants stand-ins for them to do yaoi shipping with. Extremely hard-core yaoi shipping. MASSIVELY abusive yaoi shipping...
And because they're writing with one (metaphorical) hand, the other isn't busy and a lot of the character development that we'd be seeing in the protagonists/heroes is being spent on the villains. Because that shipping-and all the justifications for it-is what they're writing for.
Part of the issue is they rely more on heroes being defined as good rather than actually earning being good. Looking at Hazbin Hotel (I've not kept up with star wars so won't comment on it), why is Charlie the hero? Because she wants a more humane solution to yearly extermination? Nobody in hell cares, most of heaven doesn't care and there are people in heaven that oppose it. There is one angel in heaven that likes the idea.
But I can't help but think this wasn't explored in any significant detail. We know Angels can fall, but if the process of redemption can be understood to any significant degree, what stops Hell from basically becoming a revolving door prison? "Oh we know this program works, in 50 years you'll be able to get to heaven" is more or less Charlies end goal.
So what significance is there in hell if you can still redeem yourself? Would heaven still remain paradise if it loses it's only punishment? More importantly, if there are any souls that can't/won't be redeemed, then this doesn't fix the original problem of the extermination. It might reduce it, but it won't solve it. I know they portray Charlie as naïve, but she's down right stupid.
So, why is Charlie the hero? Even if she got what she wanted, she has no idea the can of worms it opens and doesn't even seem to care about addressing any of them.
She is a white woman, therefore heroine
There was always something nagging in my brain about Charlie and I think you just said what I was thinking about
I mean thats what future seasons are for
It makes the most sense if Adam planned his death and his design was lamb-like to foreshadow his true intentions to have Sinners kill him as a sacrifice to God.
So when Lute confronted Lilith, it was about her knowing that Sinners could be redeemed and Lilith using Sinners like Pentious (her lambs) to stay in heaven. By using them to constantly pay her sins like a blood sucking parasite.
So now, Lute is in charge of those redemptive Sinners and they will belong to her and Adam as Winners.
@@justice8718 if Adam planned to go out he wouldn't go out unless it was in the most badass manner possible.
This "lute" character seems intriguing, i may want to know more. just maybe not the official art.
No need to look into ray stevensons to, the man's work spoke for itself time and time again.
She will have more screen time in season 2
Isn't there a "rule" about that.
@@robcampion9917(You will read this in Golums voice) Yeeees yeeesssss the ruuuuuuuule.
@@samuelfrank4787 There was 33 previous rules. This is the one rule to rule them all.
Lute is going to be the only good female character Vivziepop has ever written.
Modern Writing creating better villains than heros is something I actually have no issues with. As my grandpa used to say: "Sometimes you gotta do some good you gotta be the bad guy"
Honestly the best part of hazbin is the minor characters like seeing angle dust stand up to Valentino not for himself but for someone else was great and also watching sir pentious doing basically anything is just incredible, but Charlie and veggie are not very interesting
Vox and alastor’s hissy fits are better than vaggie or Charlie tbh
This makes me think of Rorschach from Watchmen. From what I have heard, Alan Moore expected him to be hated, and wrote him to be a mockery of Steve Ditko's (Co-Creator of Spider-Man) objectivist belief as well as the characters he created (The Question/Mr. A). He was then shocked and annoyed that people gravitated towards Rorschach but like...is it really a surprise?
1. Rorschach is the driving force behind the whole story. The whole reason most of the plot happens is because of him investigating a murder no one gives a shit about. Without Rorschach, everyone would be whining about their personal issues until Ozymandias kills them with his ultimate plan (also getting Dr. Manhattan to leave Earth so he can). Rorschach is the reason the story actually happens and is the most interesting parts of it, of course we're going to like him for that.
2. When putting him up against the other main characters we got omnipotent godlike Dr. Manhattan who just does whatever he's told, even to the point of following his own predetermined path despite knowing what will happen, Nite Owl who wallows in self pity over being retired, Silk Spectre who wallows in self pity about living in her mother's shadow, the Comedian who...is the Comedian, and Ozymandias who as I recall thinks he's the reincarnation of Alexander the Great and killed millions to trick the world into being peaceful but didn't account for people figuring out his ruse and potentially making things worse. So either people whining about how their life had turned out, godlike beings who do nothing, a psychopath and the main antagonist...yeah...I think Imma root for the dude going around murdering rapists and killers, putting the fear in genuine horrible people and having enough balls to stand by his beliefs even in the face of an omnipotent being that can and did vaporize him with a thought. There isn't really anyone else to root for in the story.
3. The story shows you his entire life's story from his childhood to how he was before being a vigilante before he eventually cracked and fully became Rorschach. We are intimately aware of who he is and why he became the way he is. That makes it easy to sympathize with him because we can understand how his path lead to where he currently is. Also helps that its reasonable how he got there. He was abused most of his childhood by his mom, that is going to fuck you up and being abused by the first woman you meet in your life who you are supposed to trust in your formative years...yeah, makes sense he's not too fond of women. He was disturbed by not only the sexual assault and murder of a woman (ironically given his discomfort around them) but also people not helping and openly gawking at the crime so he chose to fight crime as a masked vigilante...what an asshole being inspired to stop disgusting crimes like that. He was mentally broken when he discovers a kidnapped girl (again, ironic given his discomfort) was murdered and butched by the kidnapper despite not even being the kid he was after so he brutally kills the guy who did it..again, what an asshole killing a child murdering asshole. Like...what is not to root for? He's the underdog, a poor abused and traumatized guy fighting against the literal scum of the Earth. There are only two times where he hurts someone who doesn't deserve it, a weird dude pretending to be a villain to get beaten up and Moloch who is retired and reformed from villainy. For the latter though, he assumed Moloch was a part of the murder of the Comedian, so a criminal so of course he isn't going to be nice to someone possibly responsible for murder (and later seems to suspect he tried killing Ozymandias). So at worse, he killed one weird dude who was stupid enough to pretend to be a criminal in front of the guy who kills criminals, otherwise he's killing people who would get life in prison or the death penalty if arrested.
4. One final thing for why he is liked by the audience is the fact that a lot of his bad aspects are either implied or barely showcased and clearly don't seem to effect his personal decisions. He's sexist (due to childhood trauma) except we never see him beating up women for no reason (or at all from what I remember) and is only harsh to his land lord who lied about him on the news when he was arrested, otherwise he was inspired to risk his life as a mask vigilante and continue doing it even after it was outlawed due to horrible crimes done to women. He's homophobic but the only line I recall that alludes to this is speculating on Ozymandias' sexuality as another flaw in his character, we never see him attacking any LGBT people nor do we hear about it. He's racist (allegedly, the magazine he reads is) but again, we never see him attack people for their race and the only reason he hated the psychologist interviewing him (who was a black guy) was because he knew full well that the dude didn't care about helping him and only wanted to figure out what made him sick. All these flaws never impact his decisions to the point where even with his supposed bigotries, I can still see him defending the people he's bigoted towards (one of his last moments before being framed is killing a guy assaulting a woman so...) Basically, Alan Moore had an idea for who Rorschach was....and really didn't show it well. All of it is from implication or understanding specific political references and even then, we never see these alleged bigotries amount to anything besides discomfort around people (really only discomfort around women). When you don't actually show these horrible traits, you can't be surprised when people don't know they are there and like the character because he isn't doing these horrible things you imagined he'd be doing.
All in all, from what I have heard, Rorschach was meant to be hated, you aren't suppose to root for him, he's not the good guy but with all I have said...why wouldn't you root for him? He's a very clear underdog, an unfortunately traumatized man with no support group to help him through his issues so he falls further into them and these issues make him murder hardcore criminals and investigate a progressively more dangerous case and at the end of his life, is unwilling to just accept the deaths of millions of people. If Rorschach was suppose to be this bigoted loser standing in the way of actual progress...Alan Moore probably shouldn't have written him as Hobo Punisher beating up rapists and being the only active masked vigilante in a story about masked vigilantes.
There's also the fact that when they're writing villain protagonists and trying to pass them off as heroes it really shouldn't surprise when the villain that's being written and presented as a villain outshines the so-called "heroes." One doesn't know what it's supposed to be and never figures it out while the other definitely does from the get go.
You know Arch. I’ve been struggling to wrap my mind around what you’ve been talking about the last 2 of these Hazbin Hotel videoes. And with this one? I finally get what you’re talking about. Thanks for elaborating.
I was like, Adam a great villain, an interesting character? A reasonable motivation? And now I get it. 🙂
You forgot to add "severely missed opportunity"...
Also, WHERE THE HECK IS GOD IN THIS SHOW? Wouldn't "Uncle J" and "Grandpa G" be interested in what Charlie is doing?
The wroting is not only broke, but the worldbuilding is too...
@@ellugerdelacruz2555 Exactly! That's the primary thing I'm excited about for new season. What did the Angels do to God? What are they hiding? Why did various characters do what they did?
Also I take everything anyone says as their opinion not fact. If one characters says the exterminations happened for 1 reason and a different says another reason kind of deal. But that leads to this question. What does Sara know or think she knows?
The most interesting moment for me was when Adam and Sara had a moment of, Don't expose the exterminations to anyone.
In the opening moments it says the angels created Adam and Lilith and thus Eve, but who created the angels? Where is God? Sara kept saying over and over again that, Yes the exterminations are terrible, but there's so much you don't know. Don't question it or go poking around or you'll be thrown into hell like Lucifer for the greater good.
And when a character says something like that it implies a conspiracy. Something that would shatter the very concept of existence or society. Something that would validate everything stupid or horrible anyone did. Potentially a Lovecraftian horror level of secret where even knowing the information could drive you to despair.
Either they'll pick up that plot hook or leave it there until the series finally. I'm fascinated by this insane world and entertained by the characters and musical numbers.
I've never seen a faster I forgive you for lying to me for years relationship in IRL or fiction. Charlie and Vaggie are just adorably wholesome and supportive.
@@kevinmccalister4602 honestly I love this one youtuber's idea of God just being this tired and overworked guy who's been so busy keeping creation together that he hasn't been aware of what the angels have been doing.
@@christopherbravo1813 You watch finnthepony too? I only found his video after I made this comment : )
Have you watched the Alastor and nifty theories? Or the Pomni from amazing digital circus theory? These were pretty great : )
@@kevinmccalister4602 who the heck is finnthepony?
actually, that might have been the guy I watched. I dunno. I only saw the one video from this specific youtuber a while ago and don't remember that many specifics from it.
To me, the greatest problem is that most of these "hero's", seem more like the villain than the villain.
That is why I would support the villain, because he is the lesser evil.
Bascily Hell is San Fransico or New York.
And the funniest thing is its a hell they made for themselves.
I can see why Azrael wanted to end the universe.
@@tripps3631 yup
@@christopherbravo1813 The E Team social media girl, Emanda: We wanna turn heaven into a sinners resident. Building Culture (The E of Social Media)
The popular one was the comic about Pewdiepie's house was broken-in and robbed in Japan. The artist intended that the "antagonist" is sympathetic to Pewdiepie but ended up being liked by the people
I always loved the story of Tanya the Evil.
a little girl reincarnated into "not-germany" in a semi-magical world on the cusp of world war 1.
you have flash forwards to the end of the war where "not-germany" was defeated and only tales and rumors about "the Devil of the Rhine" which was her nickname.
you have a character literally named "marry sue" who has sworn a blood oath to kill her.
and finally you have the literal god of the world plotting to use her as a martyr to "make people more pious".
the story doesn't need her to stay alive, to the contrary - her death can be the climax of the story and there will still be a book or two to cover the future plot of the newspaper guys who try to look into who she was.
people from the battalion under her command die along the way, she get benched hard by mary sue and is left alive because of a "you should've gone for the head" moment and instead of being able to kill mary on that mistake MARY get saved by plot armor, TWICE(one of those is a literal plot armor).
tanya is injured multiple times in the story, and additionally there is the constant loss of self and loss of freedom due to conflicts with the god robbing her of free will slowly but surely.
the story doesn't let us think tanya is safe, because there are way more things she has to lose than just her life and even her life is almost prophesized to be forfeit at the end.
it's an AMAZING story, but only if you like japanese light novel logic(aka anime logic)
as always, if you think the west has nailed "villain writing" someone in Japan(or even some random hobby writer in some site like RoyalRoad) has outdone them on a fundamental level ages ago.
I've only watched the anime. It was great. I have to read the novels.
Less of a "not-germany" and more of the WW1 Germany just with magic and the name filed off.
@AzraelThanatos that was the point of saying "not-germany".
@@dimanarinull9122 Should've gone full blown ww1 steampunk almost. Would've fit better considering a 7.62 bullet can turn into a 155mm HE round
@@tarektechmarine8209 I'm almost convinced this is anime exclusive...
in the manga it's shown as a massive cross/sword of judgment instead.
and Tanya is less little hitler and more sun tsu crossed with a reddit atheist as a loli.
magic is COMPLETELY different in the LN and Manga when compared to the Anime magic.
Modern heroes are written like villains because the writers are villains.
I agree with asoka being that but if you think that for hazbeen hotel you are either maniac or a tool.
Totally original and not edgelord at all take.
yes
With people that have villain mindsets writing characters, of course they flip the hero/villain roles. We have real villains writing villain stories where the hero is the antagonist - and yet the story is told from the hero's standpoint without accounting for this. This isn't just bad writing, it's writing from bad people.
Honestly I think Adam dropping the ball and going for revenge on Charlie is a emotionally logical and fits his petty hyped up superiority-inferiority nature.
Lucifer is responsible for Adams failures after all and attacking hell is both logical and a personal thing for him. We see Lucifer doesn't care about the sinners and Adam coming in and killing them all isn't satisfying Adam because it isn't hurting Lucifer.
So the opportunity to take out the Daughter of Lucifer and his Ex Wife Lilith fits into his petty nature. This is an opportunity for him to impart a small part of his humiliation on lucifer. The Fallen angel that objectively ruined his life and the life of all his children forever. And to morally justify it. He knows he is biting back against the system and possibly more then he can chew but he doesn't care. He wants his petty revenge.
At least thats how I'd write it
Lute has one of the best designs and the best parts of "You didnt know"
No - that honor goes to Charlie and Emmi near the end with their duet!
If Hell is forever, then Heaven must be a lie!
When angels do whatever and remain in the sky!
The rules are shades of grey when you don’t do as you say and you make the wretched suffer just to kill them again!
@wilberwhateley7569 ok man its called an opinion 😐
@wilberwhateley7569 Except they’re wrong. Helluva Boss has three cherubs kicked out of Heaven for getting a human killed. Hazbin shows Lucifer being banished from Heaven for introducing evil to all creation.
Modern writers are villains. As villains are normally egotistical, they can only write characters they can self-insert.
So writing a hero is impossible for them. They don't have the mindset or morality to write a person of good will that is willing to make great sacrifices of their own well-being for the greater good.
lol 😝
I made a villain quite well myself, His name is Pensuke and you can see him in my series, The Pensuke Files
I lowkey want to believe that Adam bringing the extermination to charlie's door was adam wanting to get back at Lucifer... originally he intended to just kill everyone around Charlie, but when alastor and the other demons started to fight back he just felt not just irritated, but justified to put his chip into the fight and it was established that he has a blind bloodlust when feeling pressured and him attacking Charlie directly is just him getting lost in emotions.
Nice theory, wish I could be confident that much thought was put into it.
I have another reason why Adam wouldn't put stock in redemption: It has been 10,000 YEARS since Eden.
If you go by some of the less known lore, Adam lived to be 900-some. He had kid, grandkids, and great-grandkids. His family, HUMANITY ITSELF, was about 1400 members strong when he died. And somehow, I doubt most of them made it to heaven- assuming any did at all! When Adam died and learned about Hell, does no one think he didn't ASK if there was way for his family to be saved? I'm betting he did, but as far as the Angels know, it's a no.
Shit, I'm betting the first "exterminations" was Adam just killing some Overlords and/or putting some of his fallen family out of their eternal suffering- honestly, they might have seen it as a mercy and asked for it. And now he's learned to revel in killing the Sinners because, what's the alternative? Be depressed and feel horrible about people he can NOT help for thousands of years? Not to mention that Lucifer and Lilith had those same 10,000 years to make Hell, well, less Hellish. They didn't. He is literally cleaning up the mess that Lucifer and Lilith made, and has been doing it for thousands of years.
Than comes in Charlie. A Demon Princess that has been around for 200 years, and thinks SHE can find a way to redeem sinners? Okay, let's ignore the fact that might be an emotional landmind for him, why would he trust HER. Lucifer and Lilith DESTROYED Paradise and CREATED Hell with what they thought was a gift. Why, in the name of Heaven, would Adam WANT to see how their daughter's idea to HELP soul could possible make things worse?
so in summary with modern story telling they fail in these regards:
1. no risk
2. no consistency
3. no depth
4. the writer is the interloper, not the observer
Hope you have a great day & Safe Travels!
I had a thought. It could be that the disconnect here is simply the woke conception of morality. The writers and the studios want to create stories based around conflicts of good vs. evil. It's easy to understand, and still tends to be popular.
But that's where woke ideology becomes a big hurdle. They don't ascribe to traditional ideas of good and evil, and have in fact spent their entire lives rejecting those traditional beliefs in order to be revolutionaries. So their morality is more focused around tearing down traditional power structures. Anything that supports the new marxist order is good. Whereas anything that dares to oppose or not get in line, or just happens to be part of a proscribed scapegoat group, is evil.
Of course, to the average normie who just wants a knight to beat up goblins and slay dragons, this mindset is completely alien. And it gets especially complicated when they start to project their woke ideas on to a pre-existing franchise because they will not mesh with the established canon of the setting. This also might explain why they go to such lengths to tear down the previous canon of any IP that they hijack. They HAVE to because their ideology otherwise would have no place in it.
Digression aside, you're going to see a lot of villains that embody heroic ideals of western canon, such as strength, valor, punctuality, brotherhood. And also a lot of those characters will be white and/or male. Because those are all things that the wokies have brainwashed themselves into categorizing as evil. However, to a western normie who is unaware of the woke mindset, these characters will seem relatable and somewhat heroic. They are the only real representation a white male could expect to get anymore other than some apologetic simp that has to have his balls constantly busted to show how the girl-bosses and minorities are in charge. Because let's face it, the wokies think that westerners and especially those of the pale and male variety are in fact inherently evil.
It's what happens when Chaotic Evil tries to write Lawful Good. They literally can't wrap their head around the problem, because it would require acknowledging flaws in their worldview, points where reality and their ideology do not match. The fact they have a scapegoat group just gives them some traits to constantly assign their 'villains', in the modern day 'cis, straight, white, male, conservative, nationalist, virtuous' is the starting point of that list. The fact 'virtuous' is on the list, along with things like 'punctual, hard working' results in what we see.
Adam Didn't die he was let into hevean before death, he still human. cause the demons and angels don't have ears. i think adam will come back it's his first death and it was fighting lucifuer this is going to be more points to anglic rebirth he coming back as a even bigger threat.
TBH the only thing that I know about viziepop works is that she's homophobic because in all her series if you're not straight you go to hell 😂
Doubt so. I get the impression they planned for him to become a sinner after death. His anger fueled rant was way too much of a red flag.
And that is if he comes back at all. Which I hope not...
Was Adam redeemed after the fall of man? He and Eve are the source of original sin.
@seymourfields3613
_Eve_ is the source of original sin. Adam was her victim and was tricked by her. They were cast out due to the knowledge itself not being allowed to them. But, Eve was the only one who sinned.
No he also sinned by lying to God and blaming Eve despite also willing eating the Apple.
Heroes are, by definition, paragons of Virtue. Well, if you're a postmodern writer, you don't believe in "virtue", certainly not the traditional understanding of virtues.
Villains, on the other hand, are bucking the system. They're using their power to live their "best life". The villains don't believe they're doing anything "evil", they're doing what they think is the most effective way to achieve their goals (the whole Will to Power thing). The villains actually ALIGN with the writer's own values (see Thanos). So, of COURSE they're going to be more interesting. The writers don't really get or even LIKE the heroes all that much.
The primary role of the hero in these people's stories, is to represent some "marginalized" identity group. They don't even need to actually defeat the villain to accomplish that mission. Just existing meets the goal. So: here's the brown, female presenting, quazi/demi-sexual, neurodivergent main character. There her part of the story is basically done until the end where she one-shots the bad guy. Now here's the villain who's actually DOING things, MOVING the plot forward, ACCOMPLISHING goals . . . Why does the audience seem to actually like the villain more than my hero?!? It's so confusing!
Honestly, apart from a few exceptions, I've just about always found side characters and antagonists (not necessarily villains) much more interesting than their protagonists. Part of that is how main characters are written. In order to make them relatable, meaning more people are likely to get invested, they have very general, simplistic personalities. This allows side characters and "bad guys" to be way more interesting.
To use Hazbin as an example, look at how people feel about Charlie, then compare that to *Alastor.* He's not really that important to the plot, but we love him. You can never really tell what he's plotting, he seems to always be two steps ahead of nearly everyone else, he's a literal *cannibal serial killer,* and he's freaking terrifying with the power to back it up.
Things can get even more interesting with antagonists. This is best shown by what are called anti-villains, the obvious reverse of the anti-hero. They do bad things for good reasons. Look at Skoll, he's trying to tear down the world order with the help of a witch and a military general, in order to replace it with an actual good one. Another, Xtremely good, example I'm very fond of was trying to recreate the now destroyed universe he lived in, but the only way he is able to do so is by tearing chunks out of other ones, and he's more than willing to kill anyone that tries to stop him. I could go on and on about why he's so ready use such unpleasant methods, but that's not really the point.
In short, side characters and antagonists are allowed to be more nuanced, because the writers aren't worried about them being relatable.
What about handsome jack?
In the end he cries out that he was the true hero and that all this was possible because he followed fate and did all he had done even though he didn't want to. And not to mention he was screwed over by the Phoenix chick which let to his fashal scar brand and his wearing of a mask. All because she eanted the power herself.
Handsome Jack is still great character to this day
And a good example of what you can do with Borderlands writing, unfortunately Borderlands went into the drain
Borderlands is made by evil ass people. So expect this shit.
Yeah they really messed up in Pre Sequel, they made Jack someone sympathetic. So now we hate one of the main (original) characters
I Loved Man in the High Castle until the producers realized the Audience is Rooting for Smith instead of the female Lead and ruined him with their garbage writing.
Which season should I stop watching Man in the High Castle
I’d say Season 2. Season 3 at the latest cause God it nosedives in 4 with the Black Communists.
The more videos I watch about Hazbin Hotel the more plotholes and issues become apprent. Your analysis of Adam and Lute was awesome and very well put.
Adam is a character that makes more sense if you read the Bible since God is the basis for his entire character, including his deception and mind games against Evil and for his own peers (episode 1 Adam establishes that he is in his “dickmaster” role, which is an obvious fierce if you look at his actions, like Rosie hints at), and him pushing for his own death (which is why he gets angry when they don’t kill him, like when the apostles try to prevent Christ from getting trailed and murdered on the cross). Lute is in the apostle position of knowing the truth that no one else is aware of. Being the hidden bride of Adam.
Most modern heroes are stale and lack personality, they may have cool powers/abilities/skills (a lot of the time they don't even have that), but they are rarely deep characters, often being shallow, one-note heroes with little to no character development
I wouldn't call Adam an amazing antagonist, though... he needed more time on the screen to absolutely peak... one of the latest animated movies that came out where the antagonists were almost pitch perfectly implemented in the story is Puss in Boots: The Last Wish...
Thank you Arch you helped me convince my wife Addam is the hero. XD
I also liked Adam's character in Hazbin Hotel, yes, he was a huge dick at times, but the humor he brought to any scene he was in made me like his character more than fully despise him, dude had a "Im here to either party or fuck shit up" mindset and thats something i can get behind in a villain, serious when they need to be, but can bring humor to the table as well
In defense of attacking Charlie: Adam attacked the Hotel which was fair play, he didn't want to physically hurt Charlie, but crush her dreams, for causing a mess in heaven by revealing the existance of the exterminations and getting him into a mess with his boss. Lute was in support of crushing the brats dreams, who as a filthy demon stood up to Heaven. Reason went out the window when Charlie damaged Adam, but under intense pain, people rarely think clearly while in pain. And I doubt that they expected such hard resistance, they probably thought that they could walk past the princesse and slaughter everyone else. Adam and Lute had common sense, but they made mistakes.
Also, Keekee surviving is not a valid point in my oppinion, as Razzle was the only named character who really died on the good side. So a pet actually died. It felt to me like nitpicking to say that keekee survived as well.
Still kinda pathetic that only one of Charlie’s pets is the only real casualty the Hotel has. Sure Pentius and his Egg Bois got holy nuked but Pentius just ascended to Heaven. Not exactly a true lose. The only other casualties of the hotel are nameless Cannibals but we rarely see them killing or getting killed.
Meanwhile dozens if not hundreds of Exprcists are slaughtered and Adam is killed by Lucifer and Nifty.
if you actually liked underdogs there should be no reason why you shouldn't like the nation the size of texas that had to withstand half a decade of a 2 front war against the entirety of the industrialized world and even 80 years later it's still talked about with fear and reverence
It helps drum up tension for the primary lead character when there are also other main characters you know could capably fill the same role. Like in Dune we have his bodyguard and in Lord of the Rings we have the entire Fellowship. Even Star Wars has Leia and Han.
It is like the writers have more in common with Evil than Heroism.
I thibk that the show really missed an opportunity to have Adam and the exorcists be a threat to Hell eithout directly targetting the Hotel. Because thinking about it logically, Adam has no actually serious reason to try and go after Charlie, since he is confident that her plan eould have never worked, abd especially after the angel court ruled in favor of redemption NOT being possible. His primary concern, assuming that he was written consistently and remembers to adhere to the treaty that says he can't target Lucifer's family, should be in finding out who killed one of his soldiers and how, abd to get revenge on them and prevent said means of killing angels from being available to to the denizens of Hell.
Adam and the exterminators should primarily have beef with Carmine and ger angelic weapons industry, since they are the only party outside of Lucifer who can pose a legitimate threat to their forces. Carmine herself understabds this possibility perfectly well, being the principal reason why she is reluctant to disclose that angels can be killed with her weaponry.
Another thing: It's made clear in the Respectless song that Velvette does NOT know how the angel was killed, just that she suspects it was Carmine who did it. And in the scene where Vix is telling all the little reporter demons that he is working on an "angelic security" service, he tells hos underling to contact Carmine to get her to supply weapons technology as part of the proposed plan, but this is because of her reputation as being the biggest and most reliable weapons dealer in Hell, not out of any knowledge that the wrapons she makes can actually kill the angels. At least, everything from the show prior to the finale makes it seem like the Vees had no idea about the importance of angelic weapons.
Why do I bring this up? Sinple: The exorcists wouldn't consider the Vees to be a threat, unless they can get confirmation that Vox's proposed deal with Carmilla involves her selling him angelic weapons.
And on another note, we know that the angels have the ability to keep tabs on Hell in real time outside of Extermination Day. In the abgel court scene, Adam snaps his fingers and a sphere manifests that shows exaxtly what Angel Dust and friends are doing, with all in Hell being none the wiser. He could have absolutely summoned a bunch of those scrying orbs and put them in a big room that the exorcists can use to spy on areas and persons of interest in Hell (which they seemingly know of to some degree, seeing as both Adam and Lute knew who Angel Dust was and his history) and figured out exactly what the nain cast was doing as to bot get surprised at anything they might have been planning. More importantly, Adam (if he was written consistently to his portrayal and notivations from episode 1) would gave used that ability to see if he could get clues on what happenes to the dead exorcist. If he did this, then he could have known about the Overlord meeting, that the Vees had an assault plan against the exorcists and that Carmine was the most likely suspect as to who killed the exprcist. In viewing the meeting via orb, he most likely would have been able to listen in on Alastor telling Frank the egg creature toeavesdrop on Carmilla and Zestial. If Adam had done this, he would have figured out that Carmilla was the one who killed his subordinate and wiuld then have a vested interest in finding everything there is to know about her, thus setting up his primary motivation for the rest of the season.
With Adam's goal being more defined abd actually sensible, it gives more room to explore the character development of everyone at the hotel, and how they would actually tey and achieve their goals. I believe that the pacing of the show is one of its greatest weaknesses, it's established that the bext extermination is coming twice as fast, but 5 of those 6 months pass literalky vetween 2 of those episodes and it feels like nothinf najor happened. Imagine if that time had veen filled in with stories aeound each of the characters and their place in the wider setting, with occasional foraus into unrelated characters like the Overlords and Vees and what they're doing, as well as how Adam and the exorcists are faring in reacting to the bew information they learn from their observations of them. If we had like 15, 20 epidodes of that, rhen it would maje the stakes of the finale feel a lot more consequential.
Getting back to the point, the main physical conflict of the fibake would be not the Hotek being under threat, but them trying to prove that the idea of redemption can work while Adam and Carmine's armies battle in the distance. This conflict would not only allow the scale of the fighting to be much larger, but for both sides to actually have losses, since they both have effective means of killing the other. To add to the staies and barrative weight of the losses, in this hypothetical extended season between the first and last episode, some previous time could have been spend establishing and building up supporting characters on both sides, such as Carmine's daughters and sone important employees, and other exorcists who are the leaders of specific devisions specializing in different weapons or fighting styles or something. That way, even if they don't want to kill of a major character like Carmine or Adam, there would be consequences to the fight on a personal scale, in addition to a larger "the attack shifted the balance of power in Hell by crippling Carmine's weapon industry" consequences.
Also, there is a major plot hole as to the initial exprcist death to begin with. It's established that there was only ever 1 exorcist that Carmine killed, but during the flashback scene of her doing it, she was surrounded by several exorcists. What doesn't make any sense is that if she only killed one exorcist, how did she escape the rest? Did they just run away instead of trying to attack from multiple directions? And if so, why did none of them report what happened to Adam and Lute? And if Carmine got out by killing all those exorcists, then how come there are no additional bodies, or that no one knew that multiple had died?
A better way to do it would have geen if Carmine had killed the while squad of exorcists that attacked her, leaving behind nultiple angel bodies and thus giving Adam more of a reason to hunt down and find whoever did this. This would in turn increase thr stakes for Carmine since even though she is betee equipped than anyone to resist an exorcist attack via her weapons industry and likely know that if anyone would trace the exorcist deaths back to her, everything she feared would come to pass, she doesn't know what Adam is doing while he would be able to spy on her.
This does bring up the issue on whether or not Carmine would ever spill the secret about angelic weaponry being the weakness of angels, but assuming that Adam and Lute have some common sense, they would tey abd piece together how she did it and realize that what separates Carmine from all the other sinners is her control and proliferation of angelic weapons, and naybe come to the conclusion that it might have something to do with it.
The final battle in this case would be the exorcists staging a massive attack on Carmine's territory and bases, which they would know the locations of theough months of surveillance, and would try and eliminate as much of this potential threat to their personnel as possible. However, they could not anticipate just how prepared that Carmine and her underlings are, and so the exorcists would suffer heavy initial casualties from any armed resistance before catching on yhat they should try and avoid getting hit by the enemy's angelic weapons. The battle goes on until the finale, which would be when the exircists have to depart since the extermination day is officially over, and they havent killed all the opposition due to greater than expected resistance and Carmilla's territory being so large.
The exorcists retreat, Carmilla may or may not die, and the stage is set for the next season's background or side plot of Hell in general recoverin from the danage caused and Carmikla trying to rebuild her territory and influence. Meanwhile, the exircusts would also need to recouperare from their casuakties and update their tactics and equipment for the kinds of enemies they know will be facing them. As Carmine said herself, the nain weaknesses if the exorcists are their overconfidence and lack of defense, which they would now know about and try to fix.
Your idea of Exorcist officers reminds me of my own idea for certain exorcists to be homages to demon slayers from various forms of media.
OOH very well thought on that one. I also thought it would have been a good idea to threaten Charlie so that all the eyes were on her, that her defenses were up and even Lucifer was taking a look. Then attack regular Pride Ring as usual. Have all the defenses and preparations be in a whole different area. It makes Charlie look ineffective, and also makes it look like she cares more for her own "Hotel goers" than other hell denizens. And the people in hell would be much less prepared than she was and with less powerful. It also means that if hse does go to defend them she isn't in the proper area, she isn't prepared, and they have to turn a defense into an offense.
Like your idea too, but....no.....I think that partially its Vizie's still unrefined writing abilities (She is good at ideas but putting it all together takes lots of experience) and Amazon basically making it a very small trial run.
I mean, villains have always been characters that developed into fan favorites. In fact, they're often one of the reasons people remember a movie for. Like, who is the character you think more about or remember when it comes to Rango? Our protagonist, Rango, or the deathly rattlesnake with a multi-barrels gatling gun for a rattle, Rattlesnake Jake? Or Adventure Time would be another, as I haven't gotten to actually watching the series yet I continuously come back to videos regarding the Lich's speech. *ESPECIALLY* the iconic one:
FALL
You are alone, child...
There is only darkness for you, and only death for you people - these ancients are just the beginning
I will command a great and terrible army and will sail to a billion worlds
We will sail till every light has been extinguished
You are strong child, but I am beyond strength.
I am...
THE END
And I have come for YOU, Finn...
But one thing I'd say thats becoming more rare are villains that have full-on menace - and I'm talking Slade level menace. I'm not talking Teen Titans Go Slade. I'm talking the Teenage Terminator himself from the OG Teen Titans
Tbh Rango is pretty memorable protagonist at least for me.
How dare you make me remember the spoiled greatness of man in the high tower and especially fuhrer Smith
John Smith carried Man in the High Castle on his boney shoulders.
They all trying to make sympathetic Villains without realizing they need Heroes that aren't assholes. Guess we've gone full circle
Adversity ✋
A diversity 👌
What I find interesting about this conversation is how it's a microcosm, perhaps a Freudian reflection of the reality we live in; how a culture inevitably develops an anticulture to itself and, in The process, that anticulture gradually develops to become the purpose for why the main culture exists i.e the main culture lacks the ego personality to stand on its own, it needs a villain to justify its existence
I was totally rooting for Adam and Lute to go all scorched earth on the protagonists.
Why? I saw nothing praiseworthy about their enjoyment of other people’s death (Adam even refers to the extermination as “entertainment”) - especially when it’s the death of people who don’t even have the means to resist them (as of the beginning of the first episode, they only lost *one* exorcist to the demons in a fair fight - excluding other exorcists that were “unpersoned” and left to die, of course…).
Sorry, but there’s no redeeming value in this kind of wanton slaughter.
Because @@wilberwhateley7569 , no matter how hard the show tries to make heaven look evil and hell look sympathetic, I will no root for literal hellspawn against literal angels. Adam and Lute being entertaining characters is just a nice bonus. The movie "The Birth of a Nation" portrays the KKK as heroic force protecting America from "the evil black man", but that's not going to make me root for the KKK.
@@jordanhowe188 So, your position is “angel good because angel!” You don’t want to stop and consider the metaphysical or ethical implications of your position…
@jordanhowe188 the show doesn't portay all of heaven as evil you would know if you actually paid attention
Well most often the villains are the movers in story telling. This is okay if the protagonist is also a moving agent. But modern writing is horrendous and so the protagonist simply hops from villain caused plot point to villain caused plot point.
Given the whole "demon protagonists, angel antagonists/bad is good and good is bad" angle, Hazbin Hotel is yet another example of a juvenile antireligious power fantasy from someone still salty about Sunday School.
Hazbin directly showed not all of heaven is bad just the exorcist are so your good is bad statement doesn't truly work
@@user-mz9xo3hx1h Did you mean another word, or actual exorcists? If the latter, that's still pretty damning - pun intended - evidence against the show.
@@snappycenter7863 exorcist are the names of the angels that do the exterminations
@@user-mz9xo3hx1h That's still leaning into "bad is good and good is bad", with the demons being "good" and the angels who fight them specifically "bad".
Arch the reason why no one can do heroes in anime is because these people made a choice and they lost their objectivity.
My personal example is when KoToR came out i was young and VERY much a darksider! I got the evil end sans Bastilla (0 persuasion). Fifteen years later i happened to pick up an og xbox copy (and a KoToR 2) for $4.00 at a pawn shop. I get to the choice and because i made a choice in my life to pass through the darkness into the light I mentally could not make the darksider choices.
Im also a writer and struggle to make villians because i can no longer make my mind go "evil".
With workplace politics writers with a good guy mindset just dont survive long as they start, thry have to make the choice to be selfish, ruthless people to ascend or even maintain their place on the ladder or be thrown off (most are anyway) it to make way for soulless cubical slaves who cant figure out they are the grass on which the corporation lives off of.
I will also point out this is going to get FAAAAAR worse before it gets better as the corporate officers see their power slipping doubling down on their course of action until the company goes bankrupt becomes commonplace. Whats needed is a full bore purge of political activists masquerading as corporate workers across the western world while disbarring them from places of power, influence, or authority.
Just make a woke “hero” and go villain with it
Like a seraphim I made in my head, Elagapolis, taught by the heavenly virtue of love, Guardian Angel of X O V, and leader of The E Team
@orrorsaness5942 thats like telling Mr. Lucas to make Luke Skywalker then make him the villian of star wars. The requirements of an antagonist and pritagonist do have commonalities, but the greatest villians and heroes come from similar and completely different angles at once.
Naruto and Sauske
Ichigo and Ullquiora
Luffy and Kido
Sakuna and Gojo
Anaval and Ko
Amuro and Char
Goku and Vegeta
These are examples of how to make amazing dynamics but i can no longer walk darker paths because of my irl choices and that woke hero flip is what hollywoke does.
@@brianjohnson5272 huh 🤔
@@brianjohnson5272 well there is also Pensuke, an incubator spreading irrationality and anti-human thinking. He asks boys to make a wish, taking advantage of them and then indoctrinating them into thinking all men and boys are evil and undiverse and that they are the only heroes there. He also indoctrinates parents into thinking that he is a kindly soul. He also has emotions and has a “liking” to little boys, if you know what I mean.
@@brianjohnson5272 umm… the heavenly virtue of love. He defended Angels being
Slaves to humans but most of all God, and free will being nonexistent against bad boy hazbin hotel’s Lucifer who obviously 🙄 opposed it due to pride and wishful thinking. He eventually saw people do good things with free will and his mind broke. Then he decided to prove that he is completely correct by turning heaven into a living hell and made a new doctrine, antiwinnerism, play stupid games win stupid prizes.
For me, modern heroes, being self insert, and at the same time, the people writting dont have an idea, of self sacrifice, or that heroes must never face opposition, and villans being the opposite, you feel investment, also something to many will know, antagonist, means the one that put the wheels in motion, the one that make things go, he is the pro active.
I dont know if i am just becoming old and bitter i feel more in love with villans, because the modern heroes, is not heroic, because i am not diverse, and i have the skin color i have modern heroes will just let me die there, or see me as a monster, meanwhile a villan yes will use me or whatever but at least give me the time of day.
Is sad, when modern enterteinment make me ruth for the villan