Why You May Have Stopped Liking Comic Books... - Rant | Comicstorian
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Basically characters aren't really characters anymore but just tools for writers to tell a story they want to tell
Seems to be true sadly. Never thought about it like that
So true man,they wanna show their ideas instead lf entertaining people
That's a great way to put it
Lol; sarcasm is often slightly difficult to read in text without punctuation marks, and "basic" understanding of the English Language..😏😂 Then again, none of us are perfect.. 😏😆😁 Isn't that "basically" what a "character" has always been Lol; at least in the "Basic" AMERICAN understanding/use of the word in AMERICAN Story telling...😆 Plenty of characters in comic book lore (mainly antagonists..) were created back in the day SOLEY to be punching bags for the protagonist with little to no thought into their backstory, and why they woke up one morning and decided to choose violence after being blessed/cursed with "Superior" human abilities just like the "hero" V . V
@@geicothirtynine I think you have a poor level of comprehension or perhaps have never read an actual book if that is your actual perspective on literature. You type well but I dont think we can say the same for your ability to read.
For me, there's no good status quo anymore. Every arc makes a change....but that change either is erased or removed before it can even be digested or played with.
And the ones that last are often bad....
I am so tired how every event kills off several characters only for them to come back immediately once it ends. When Black Widow was killed in Secret Empire, she was brought back to life the month after the event ended.
So do you want change or you want no change?
@@HeroFall I'm ok with either direction. If they want to change stuff, let's take the time to enjoy sa
I'd status quo before reverting.
If you're not changing things
Or reverting to an earlier status quo, don't just break the setting and pick one that makes me depressed.
@@rotimigbadebo9609 probably because every time they want to change something, people cry and get upset and call it woke up or an agenda. They've been trying to pass mantles and get rid of the status quo since 2004. You can see how it didn't work out.
@@HeroFall see....you don't have to get rid of the status quo..... Marvel has done interesting things a few times by creating new imprints. The ultimate universe, Age of apocalypse, and the 2009 universe were successful experiments of different ideas and status quo changes, now even tho all fell apart in time....all did a decent job of bringing forth a different take on the main universe ...and when they died ... Aspects of them were assimilated. Marvel especially, needs to do the hard work of creating new imprints where their newer creations can thrive.
But to take a different direction, we need a bastard in charge.
A bastard that makes it clear that this is the new direction....and can weather the inevitable storms that occur. the issue here is that the bosses on high are cowards who flinch when profits go down, not allowing the creatives to get to the point of the work being done.
If they were able to weather the storms....in time fans would change their minds and accept said changes.
Although perhaps.....the floppy model is obsolete and we should focus on larger graphic novels that tell a bigger and more complete story
For me its them not letting Spiderman(Peter Parker) grow up because I would love more older Spiderman comics
Bro I was just about to say the same thing!!
Exactly, it's why I liked Spider-girl and the MC2 universe. We get to see Peter and MJ as parents. Wish they would just adjust the main universe by a few years.
You oldheads always say that. So because YOU got older you want the character to do the same? That’s so selfish. What about the other younger generations? Maybe they want to experience what you experienced when you were their age
@@DavidMartinez-ce3lp I even love the Parker industry storyline and while it wasn't perfect as I would actually love to see Peter himself build it from the ground up Peter has the smarts to be the Mr. Beasts meet Tony Stark of billionaires
Absolutely 👍🏻
For me its the idea of no end I have no care for whatever else.
With manga I can pick up at chapter 1 and finish beginning to end. With comics it's tie ins, events, reboots, and it's all supposed to be canon
True thats why I read manga and indie comics now the writers have more freedom to write the story they want without having it tied to a grand narrative that leads to a generic battle event.
That’s actually why I love comics so much. I love these characters to much that I don’t want it to ever end. Yes that means you occasionally run into 5 or even 10 year slumps with very little progression. But for each of those runs you also get runs with riveting storytelling and fantastic characterization.
No manga character could ever live up to some of the more fleshed out heroes like Spider-Man or Batman simply by virtue of how much good content they’ve been in over the decades.
And that’s the thing: there’s good content and bad content. But comics aren’t supposed to be a medium for completionism. Just read what you like, and if you’re lucky, there’s decades of content that you might enjoy.
@@juansanchez209 THAT IS just boring dude.
@@ArlindoBuriti It’s a matter of perspective. I’m not right or wrong, and the people who disagree with me aren’t right or wrong. It’s just different tastes regarding the manner in which we consume media
Yeah, that is what I hate the most. Like I love power scaling, but then you have a different Superman with a different scale or set of feats every year!
I fell out of the whole Goku vs Superman debate cause Goku is out here fighting 100 different versions of Superman!
MJ's instant family is a blatant FU to the fans hoping she would reconcile with Peter. There is no other way to take that.
They keep talking about keeping Spider-Man the way he was, but he was married longer than he was single.
The natural progression of his character would be to be together with MJ and they refuse to do this - so why should I care? Aunt May can't live forever and Spidey can't forever be 'down on his luck'
Honestly I really don't think it's that personal with the amount of writers we run through in the comic industry, I think it's like someone just has a completely different view than you and they were adamant on becoming a writer and so now they're doing what they want with the story because that's what their whole goal was. I honestly don't think most of the writers specifically care about what you want or don't want as a fan and are just focused on the story that they want to tell even when they kind of fuck up the previous writers work just to tell it. Try not to take things so personally
Red hair characters get the most social engineering.
My thing with Peter an MJ splitting is why did it have to be so convoluted? Why not simply tell a mature story where MJ basically admits she can't deal with him being Spider-Man anymore because she wants to have a family and he can't stop going out and risking his life. He won't even leave them a pension if he dies like a cop or firefighter would. People might have felt like it was a drastic reversal of her character, but you could set it up if you give a writer enough time.
@@seanwilliams7655 because ironically they told that story already
R.i.p Kevin Conroy you brought Batman and Bruce Wayne to life in multiple ways thank you Gotham will never be the same without you 😭🦇😭🦇😭🦇
At least we saw his Batman story play out the DCAU. We'll always have have that story. RIP to the legend.
@@DavidMartinez-ce3lp its true but there are still so many stories that could be set in that universe... At least these days we have A.I and stuff. I hope his family does for his voice what James Earl Jones has done with his. Let it love on so long as it remains consistent with his living roles.
Same
He is the only Batman voice I hear in my head. Just like Mark Hamill is the only joker that lives in my head.
We also got to see him as live action Batman in the Arrowverse 2019 crisis crossover.
Comics always seem like fanfic since it's always a new writer doing something different with the same characters but might add their own original character to the mix changing up the lore a little.
Worse part is that I've read better fanfics
Pretty much every type of comic media is a fanfic when you boil down to it.
@@MakiPcr
Kon El Superboy and Cassandra Cain Batgirl bang in the sky with Stephanie Brown and Tim Drake story is better than current DC Comics.
@@jilhaneyisaiahdanielb.8878 I know this is a joke, but it's true, fanfic writers aren't afraid of making characters gay
Manga is what's selling, it was a mission to get newer chainsaw man volumes or jjk volumes meanwhile no one has been touching the comic section. In most stores in my area they've been reduce to a small little corner
B&N and public libraries have the manga shelves more organized due to books are almost identical in size and color, and alphabetized for easy browsing and picking. Meanwhile at the US section, yeeesh it's like its chasing me away because they put LGBTQ ads first and foremost. Plus the book appearance are too messy, mixed nuts in colors, and organized according to publishers.
Comics have never sold the copies that manga are selling now. Even in the "good ol days" comics weren't selling millions of copies per issue the way Shounen are now
Stories in Manga have a clear beginning, middle and end, while in 90% of Comic Books the poor characters are trapped in a straight-up Eternal Return that makes them a bit disturbing to read...
Characters like Batman or Spider-Man will never have a happy ending to their stories beyond some specific one-shot stories, oh, and just figuring out where to begin is ridiculous.
However, there is a rather neat in-between with Hellboy's Universe since that world's story has a clear beginning and end, yet the many stories around act more akin to myths told during a bygone era, it's amazing!
I think for me it's event fatigue. I enjoy the occasional event but, overall I like my books to have some separation. I hate being invested in a storyline only to know the book is going to get eventually hijacked for a few issues by characters and villains I may not care about. Events in the 2000s and beyonfld are basically what variant covers were in the 90s.
Ya too many crossovers and events tend to put me off too. I choose what I want to read in my own time, and I hate when you start an issue to find out you missed out on some big plot point because you weren't following the 3 other connected runs that didn't interest you as much or at all.
Same for me, I want to read the continuing adventures of this character, not a world ending event after the other
The events, with their constant "OMG, ALL UNIVERSES ARE GOING TO END" only cause everything to seem LESS important.
Counterintuitive? Yes, it is.
But I keep canceling Marvel titles because of the events.
I'm not happy about it. I'm old, but I'm still a Marvel fan boy. And
I'd like to sub a lot of Marvel titles. But the events ruin the reading pleasure.
Events are the only way to advertise comics belonging to niche characters
I'll tell you why: "INTERNET GAS"
Y'all remember that shit? Yeah, fuck that.
😂 and then they never released it because everyone hated it.
Snowflake & Safespace...lmfao
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
OH YEA I have used Them as the answer to why don't they make new things anymore. Because that's how we got new warriors
@@dedcaesar2325 this is a hate crime.
Nothing changes in comics. Eventually it all goes back to normal. And that's fine for a while but you eventually grow out of it. I want heroes that change and grow.
Yep I think thats the big issue for a lot of people, but newer readers who have only been here like 5 years arent really realizing that.
Then why is everyone going to the Rippaverse?
If anything, I think things have changed too much in recent years. Especially with all the events, reboots, and relaunches, which will force more of them to have to happen afterwards.
Superman's identity is gone, his son got aged up to a virtual adult off screen. Hulk has become an Immortal Son of the Devil and now a Spaceship. Deadpool literally decided to mindwipe his own daughter away and now has become a shell of himself grasping for nostalgia, Deathstroke has had 3 different fathers, multiple different origin stories, dozens of different outfits, dozens of personalities, and constant inconsistent writing, since 2011 (except for Christopher Priest who did great), to the point even most writers are just mixing continuity as they see fit, whether it contradicts itself or not. Etc.
Writers don't seem to respect other writers or the character's themselves, and just do whatever they think will sell or look cool, leaving the next writer to pick up the pieces or just ignore them.
In other words, some fans have to wait for a reboot to bother reading comics about the character they like, because they have been changed to the point they hardly recognize them. Even then they may keep the changes, and even build on to it. Change can be good, but it can also be dreadful.
Remember when Deathstroke was teaming up with Superman and the world's greatest heroes to fight Brainiac? Well, now he's trying to destroy the Multiverse, and don't worry, Deathstroke's new son who got murdered will be forgotten, and his killers will get off scot free (as per usual), but at least we got a Hulk like Deathstroke fighting the Justice League in a very unnecessary comic book event.
@ThatYellowSpiderGuy No I do think there are a lot of people going there to show where their interests lie. You don't get that kind of money without a dedicated movement behind it after all. One look at comic twitter and you realize nobody is considering that group of people lately.
@@IronDruids you're not wrong, but you can't get a massive following that unless there was rapidly growing problem with it.
I think when people say "Comics are Woke" they mean it's being either aggressively shoved in our face, sacrificing the story to push an agenda or the writers do things to spite a very specific and select group of people. Like the She-Hulk show. They tried to save face by saying She-Hulk was bad on purpose to "Troll the Trolls." But that's not even a good reason, because people like She-Hulk. It's really no longer "Woke Bad!" and more so being upset that stories are being sacrificed to push something.
I think the problem is a combination of a lot of things:
1. Unnecessary changes to beloved characters or changes that doesn't make good story telling. Such as constantly erasing history, and replacing characters without proper setup and time dedicated to that.
2. The politics and preachiness. Yes, they've had politics, and cultural awareness and many different angels and perspective on stuff in the real world. The PROBLEM isn't that people are just complaining "WOKE, WOKE, WOKE!" It's a lack of subtlety and consistent changes to characters that make no sense and doesn't help the story, not to mention the story themselves tend to be mediocre or SUCK cuz they focus on the message and not the story. I'm constantly hearing and seeing about new writers that don't give shit about the actual comics or characters and just do whatever without really putting any effort in. And at the very least, if the forced wokeness doesn't bother you then stories writing tends to be horrible, some stuff nowadays like DCeased or the Dark Metal was pretty good, but a lot of it . . . Just no.
3. Finally, if you ignore all the point above, at least acknowledge that the current companies and write hate the fans that don't like the current age of comics. Instead of agree to disagree or accept any type of criticism, they rather insult them, block them, dox them, etc. They do this with majority of the fans, not a small percentage of them. And even the small percentage of that small percentage don't really read those comics.
I think the real issue with political stances in fictional media these days is that we're already overexposed to politics in our day-to-day lives, and that's been the societal status quo for a little less than a decade now. Fiction being a vector for such matters is really nothing new; you compare many of the debut comics and stories for characters or even entire shows or series to the political issues that were ongoing at the time and you come to realize it's anything *but* a recent phenomenon.
Now with all the political insanity we're forced to endure day in and day out, I come to fiction for an *escape* from that crap, not be exposed to *more* of it. That's the real reason why I'm upset about it.
Another great example of one writer was Chris Clearmont on the X-Men. He wrote that book for years and is one of the main reasons they achieved the popularity they have.
And as soon as he left, xmen comics turnt to crap and kept repeating storylines from clearmonts run, only the spin-off series like generation x or new mutants were good
Exactly. Claremont’s X-Men was one giant soap opera. Unfortunately that was one of the reasons why things like the Ultimate line came out because editors thought the books were not accessible for the new film going casual reader.
@@braxtonwages195 Lol soup opera?
@@videon6134 Lol I’m glad you caught that.
Yeah, but, Claremont was fired from the book which meandered after fall of the mutants when Jim Lee came on the book he was given permission to rewrite Chris's stories then more mediocre stories before a second book was added because the original team rejoined oh and the x-men were back from the dead
It's really very simple- in their misguided corporate quest to make comics "diverse" (even though they'd always been diverse) they stopped hiring writers who actually care about the characters and lore.
I never stopped loving comics but I definitely did move on from mainstream comics to indie comics where the stories are much more self-contained with a variety of genres and art styles. Still love picking up the occasional Marvel or DC comic for my favorite characters but definitely not reading them as frequently anymore.
Same for me
Me too
I find myself gravitating more toward indie publishers, because they allow creators to work at a reasonable pace, deadlines aren’t as tight, and as a result I think you get more consistent, original story telling and artwork than the bigger publishers.
Thank you alternate publishers are often ignored
This is why for the past 6 years I've been mainly reading Image, Dark Horse and IDW
Imma tell you why I stopped reading comics: The people writing them not only hate me, but they also hate the characters they're given. Characters I've loved since I was a child. The companies pump out event after event In a futile effort to drum up interest. In the end I've found creators outside the establishment that don't hate me and are creating stories and characters they're truly passionate about.
Could not agree more. They treat the Characters and their History like jokes, and those that where Fans of them like Trash. No better example then Young Justice and the way that writer represented how that Team used to be. Even if you ignore Tims Sexual Identity everything else about him was misrepresented as well. They knew that those wanting to read it would be the Fans of Young Justice, and that whole stupid Dark Crisis Story with them was nothing but the Writer telling us Fans how much they HATED Young Justice and how horrible we where for liking it.
In Marvel the Writers change long standing Lore like the Phoenix having Cloned Jeans body during the Dark Phoenix Saga and just saying 'nope it was her to whole time', just so they can make her being judged guilty correct for... reasons. Not to mention making Cap feel like he failed changing people, because I guess trying and risking failure is a bad thing, so Kids dont bother trying unless you know you can do it. Dont be like Cap and become a Failure. Instead be like Doom and tell people to F Off because thats a good thing according to Space God.
It bad writing and the failure of Marvel and DC to make sure they have Writers who CARE about what they are not only working on, but what came before. I feel Benny just ignored all this because he doesnt want to anger Marvel or DC and have them harass his Channel.
I recently started reading My Hero Academia and am 7 volumes in. I love reading this story more than any X-Men book I’ve read. It’s so refreshing to read one book and get the story and not have to read 3 different titles to get the “story”. Not the mention the price point for manga vs comics. $10 for 200 pages vs $4-5 for 28 pages.
I don't think MHA is the correct example. Did you know there's a really important plot point in the spin-off vigilantes?
@@tintillor I actually did not know that, I am only on volume 12. Thank you for correcting me though!
It’s only 2 bucks a month online
It’s still a good example. You don’t need to read vigilante at all to be able to fully understand MHA. It’s there to provide deeper understanding of the established world
The story also gets pathetically bad after about 9 or 10 volumes
I think it's cause writers try simultaneously to pander to the "youth" while not understanding them in reality, and to up the ante and stakes in each arc. So they alienate old time readers while breaking narrative and continuity.
It doesn't help that manga is on the rise, and it basically being everything comics are not. They have 1 writer and artist through the entire run, more consistent release schedules, more mature stories, cohesive narratives and a plethora of genres from romance to horror and thrillers. While comics are sadly still populated by primarily superheroes.
I absolutely agree, and to add manga writers have more freedom to create story that aren't mainstream. They are able to write stories that a violent or sexual without worrying about lossing money or backlash.
The lack of consistency in writing mainline comic book characters is exactly why I adore elseworld stories(especially what marvel is doing with their life story books)
This is why every year I kick it off with a re-read of Invincible
It's a great way to refresh & makes me itch for the DC/Marvel Formula
Then in the summer I re-read some of my fav one shots or minis to act as a halfway cleanse
Been pretty solid for the past 5 years🤷♂️
Invincible. He grows, he learns, we root for him through the good times and the bad.
It really sucks that Marvel and DC cannot stop having these events, we want to enjoy seeing them grow and getting some wins (looking at you Marvel with your Spider-Man torture porn)
invincibles ending sucks i get that robert kirkman wanted it end but if you wanna end something dont leave a bunch of big plotholes unawnsered and unresolved
Benny, I think you are missing the point regarding the complaints on how comics are 'woke' these days. You are claiming that the kind of examples we see today are pretty much exactly the same as they used to be in prior decades. I would respectfully (what little I have left that is) disagree with you on that. For one thing, from what I understand of the older stories they discussed such things with subtly and nuance. Even if one side was noted as being in the wrong, like the whole Mutant vs Anti-Mutant concept of old X-Men stories, they still tried to handle it with explaining that yeah, to hate Mutant's just because of what they happen to be isn't right. But it also isn't right to just harm and kill people because of that or to treat one group as lesser or greater than the other because of that fact. Nor is it right to act as though merely separating the two groups into their own parts of the world, because that will NEVER satisfy every individual within said groups. Also, when you have storylines/characters that more often than not just exist to show how 'diverse' a lineup is. It doesn't mean it showcases how diverse something is, it's just an attempt to make more money by publishers who don't exactly know what the comics they make are meant to appeal towards. And that bit about the comic sales, could you please show everyone how many of those sales are tied to people buying the comics (that is, someone like you going to a local comic book store and actually buying the comic as an example), vs the amount of comics sent to various storefronts. Because I feel that is a point you failed miserably to clarify on. Plus, often when people complain about comics being 'woke' it's more often a complaint on how lacking the storytelling (what little there is) has regarding an issue or topic in general. The fact that there are NOT SUBTLE AT ALL comparisons to some real life people to fictional villains where some would feel isn't right or otherwise 'offensive', does not help give people confidence in western comics. However I would say your discussion about circular storytelling is very much so valid, but how much said things weigh up to each other isn't something I can claim to know, and neither I believe would you. And if you would claim otherwise, I'd say you are lying to yourself and everyone else. All this to say, 'Woke' is often related to poor storytellling/characters these days and is vastly different from how prior decades handled social issues, and how it has an impact of varying degrees to people who would have enjoyed comics. I ask that you take a moment to actually talk to those who complain about comics being 'woke' is, rather than merely saying they are wrong and brushing them off to the side. Because what you are doing isn't helping the situation, it's making it worse.
mucho texto🗿🗿🗿
Bro absolutely SPITTING AN ENTIRE STORY CHAPTER of facts!
@@thechimichanga6914 Thank you. While I do tend to go rather lengthy on something. I do appreciate that you understand that I have some valid points to say. I doubt Benny or any of the others at Comicstorian will take my words seriously or even acknowledge the fact that they may be wrong regarding certain things. But if some people see what I have to say and consider my words to at least be somewhat valid, then it helps remind me that there are people who actually know what is wrong with comics these days. Again, glad to see someone else gets it.
For me characters just stop growing. Before we’ve been having Robin evolve into night wing or kid flash evolve into the flash now we have Tim forever being Robin or Bruce forever being Batman
Same, if anything I would do another hard reset of DC comics universe. Take it back to the 1940s America, and allow them to age as the comics go on. Imagine a Bruce Wayne who still had his Robins but we seem him get older and slower, ending his time as batman in the late 1960s only for Dick Grayson to take the mantle while Damien Wayne acts as his Robin. Then having a late 1980s Damian batman. It could be really cool and fun.
Exactly and the worst part is they have the right tools to grow then and create legacies but refuse to
@@nobodyknowsforsure right nearly every DC hero have a legacy character and they don’t for forced
@@carolusrex5213 Or at least copy the format of Spider-man: life story. That was really good. But you need a super fan of the character to write it.
Eh I think Bruce works better as Batman
I've never stopped liking comics, it's all a great bundle of story telling. Heck, one of my favorite comics that I listen from Comicstorian is Spider-Man's last stand. The one where the Goblin (Ultimate Goblin, I think) had literally fought Peter to the end of their lives. My favorite and most heartfelt comic in my opinion for Spidey!
Too bad it got written out of continuity and buried under a million useless Spider-Man stories
We shouldn’t have to settle for bad writing and cheap marketing stunts because “That’s how its always been”. We should be able to have some respect for the writings of today, they way the whole country of Japan can look at Manga.
Comic-books stopped respecting us the minute they started charing 4.99 for 30 pages of filler and ads. I’ll just keep buying manga, until comics give me and everyone else a reason to actual go and buy them.
You do realize those problems are with DC and Marvel right? Image comics and Dark horse have been doing what manga has done for 30+ years .
@@mttylerdurden9 I own and will continue to buy Image and Darkhorse books; but that still doesn’t take away from the fact that I crave Superman and Spider-man stories that are done Great
10:35... You're ignoring that EVERYONE on all sides of the industry has nearly double cover prices in the last 15 years .
If I wanted to pick up a batman comic in 2005 that was on average 2.99, if I wanted to read future state dark detective that was 5.99 an issue, while future state as a premium title and all that , it is still the newest batman book , even now if I wanted to buy a new batman like say "I am batman "book that's 4.99... 2 dollars more.
I still like comic books but the most infuriating one to read is Spider-man because they constantly reboot the character like every other year and have to many will they won’t they relationships that always end because of some BS
This is why I exclusively buy collections and graphic novels. I like reading a single writers take on a character. I can also pick and choose for the higher reviewed stories. Granted I'm always a couple years behind but I'm never short of new stories to read :)
They are woke though no denying that. Agenda has become more important than telling a good story
Something that I’m tired of in comics is that created say 1000 heroes and then focus on like 50-60, then created 100 new heroes, gives us 2 or 3 good ones to say around then take say one of the heroes and then rewrite the characters with already established histories so they’re more modernist (which I don’t mind).
What bugs me is that there are 1000’s of other heroes we’ve probably never heard of, and know nothing about, and the already established characters have rewritten so many times that you do know what’s going on.
10:33 Yeah, no. The comic industry is including Japanese manga in that number and don’t forget about sales spiking during Covid because everyone is inside.
The thing I am losing touch with comics isn't the circular stuff and status quo. I think the writing isn't that good at points or it doesn't do the characters right, least in some stories. This could just be my choices in comic books that I read awhile back.
Just want to read a good story like Radiant Black that doesn't try too hard and just have a good time. If that makes sense. Just rambling here
It was fine when Laura became Wolverine, it is annoying how she still is called that even though Logan is back. Great Miles is in the main universe. Why doesn't he have his own name?
What made me lose intrest in X-Men as in the issue 50 where Jean Grey a mutant who can re write minds, told the younger Bobby he was gay, and so the main Bobby is now suddenly gay. I hate these random changes, and it seems that the writers are not writing to tell good stories, they are doing stuff that goes "Woke. They created a list of the smartest people in the marvle universe then had female characters complain about how in the top 10 there were no female characters.
The WOKE part, I agree and disagree with you.
The number gain is not a lot but the way they pushed the messages is right up to your face instead of being subtle. Sometimes, the writer even shat on people for no reason like in Young Justice Dark Crisis.
So, say Cyborg, instead of being less direct and say he was discriminated for being a half robot freak like in the 2003 TV show, right now if brought up again, he would be stated to be a half black man instead.
It is just the way that the story is presented that pissed the shit out of people.
Prolific Batman writer and the creator of the villain Bane, Chuck Dixon, recently explained why politics do not belong in superhero comics.
Dixon shared his thoughts in his most recent episode of Ask Chuck Dixon where he was asked by Chris Cueva, “Are you against politics in comics completely?”
Dixon answered the question stating, “Absolutely not. I’ve written political books. I did The Forgotten Man, a history of the Great Depression, adapting Amity Shlaes epic, epic history of some of the darkest years in American history.”
He continued, “I don’t think it’s political, but it is because it’s seen to have a conservative viewpoint, it’s very down on the New Deal, which I don’t think history is going to judge well in the end. So I’ve done that.”
“Clinton Cash a far more political book. An adaptation of Peter Schweizer’s exposure of Bill and Hillary Clinton’s rather tawdry work with their foundation and how basically they used it to enrich themselves. It’s purely political. So I’m not against politics in comics. I’m not against anybody’s politics in comics,” he detailed. Dixon then went on to discuss that he read Spain Rodriguez’s Trashman series. He said, “Back in the underground days I used to read Trashman by Spain Rodriguez. It basically calls for Marxist revolution in the United States, bloody Marxist revolution. It’s very anti-American. Very anti-white when you get right down to it.
He elaborated, “I dug the energy of it. I didn’t believe in any of it. I didn’t agree with any of it, but I certainly respected Spain Rodriguez’s right to make any comic book he wants.”
Dixon then transitioned to explain why he believes politics doesn’t belong in superhero comics.
He explained, “My problem with politics in comics is when you mix it with mainstream comics. When superheroes take a side, decide that they’re Democrat or Republican. And 99.99% of the time they are going to side with the Democrat. Where one president is seen as a hero and the other one is seen as an ogre or a coward or whatever depending on their party line. Now, like the old Mad Magazine, if comics were to either elevate or mock each president with the same severity to the same level I’d be fine with it. But this is politics being put into a place it does not belong. Politics does not belong in superhero comics,” Dixon declared. He explained, “My problem with politics in comics is when you mix it with mainstream comics. When superheroes take a side, decide that they’re Democrat or Republican. And 99.99% of the time they are going to side with the Democrat. Where one president is seen as a hero and the other one is seen as an ogre or a coward or whatever depending on their party line.” “Now, like the old Mad Magazine, if comics were to either elevate or mock each president with the same severity to the same level I’d be fine with it. But this is politics being put into a place it does not belong. Politics does not belong in superhero comics,” Dixon declared. He then asserted, “I’ve said it before, I’ve said it again. I’m a comics fan, you’re a comics fan, but let’s face it these characters were created to entertain children. They were never meant to be political. They were never meant to be literature. They were never meant to be meaningful. They were just meant to be good solid American red-blooded entertainment. And putting politics into it, ruins it. It ruins anything.” “If you made a political Kung Fu movie, I would say the same thing. Get off it. Stop doing that,” he concluded. What do you make of Dixon’s explanation about why politics do not belong in superhero comics?”
As the indefatigable 92-year-old
superhero conjurer and Marvel Comics
chairman emeritus sees it, fan backlash
up until this point hasn't so much been
spurred on by racism as much as
unyielding fealty to the source material.
"They're outraged not because of any
personal prejudice, Lee says. "They're
outraged because they hate to see any
change made on a series and characters
they had gotten familiar with. In Spider-
Man, when they got a new actor, that
bothered them, even though it was a
white actor. I don't think it had to do with
racial prejudice as much as they don't like
things changed." - STAN LEE
I wouldn't mind. if Peter Parker had originally
been black. a Latino, an lndian or anything else.That he stay that way. But we originally made him white. I dont see any reason to change that. It has nothing to do with being anti-gay, or anti-black, or anti-Latino, or anything like that. Latino characters should stay Latino. The Black Panther should certainly not be Swiss. I just see no reason to change that which has already been established when it's so easy to add new characters. I say create new characters the way you want to. -STAN LEE
GROTH: How did you feel about communism
then?
KIRBY: Oh, communism! That was a burning
issue. It was an outrageous issue. To be termed a communist would damage your whole family, damage your whole world- your friends wouldn't talk to you. I'm talking about other people -because I wouldn't go near the stuff. Sure, I was against the reds. I became a witch hunter. My enemies were the commies -I called them commies. In fact, Granny Goodness was a commie, Doubleheader was a commie.
"Today's flawed superheroes are superior in physical strength but common, average, ordinary in mental strength and rich in super-powers but bankrupt in reasoning powers."
-Steve Ditko (1987) "The Masters of Comic Book Art" documentary
"Comic book fans who later became editors, writers, wanted flawed heroes, anti-heroes to suit their own unwillingness to seek higher standards. It seems comic book companies, publishers, editors, too many writers and artists, all want the comfort of the anti-hero, where we're ALL grey, so no one can judge anyone or anything."
- STEVE DITKO (2014) E 23 318
STAN'S SOAPBOX
This month we're gonna yak about
something that has nothing to do with
our mags! Over the years we've re
ceived a zillion letters asking for the
Builpen's opinion about such diverse
subjects as Viet Nam, civil rights, the
war on poverty, and the upcoming elec
tion. We're fantasmagorically fiattered
that our opinion wouid matter to you,
but here's the hang-up: there ISN'T any
unanimous Bullpen opinion about any
thing. except possibly mother Iove and
apple pie! Take the election, for exam
ple. Soine of us are staunch Demo-
crats. and others dyed-in-the-wool
publicans. As for Yours Truly and a few
others, we prefer to judge the person,
rather than the party line. That's why
we seek to avoid editorializing about
controversial issues not because we
haven't our opinions, but rather be
cause we share the same diversity of
opinion as Americans everywhere. But.
we'd like to go on record about one
vital issue we believe that Man has
a divine destiny, and an awesome re
sponsibility the responsibility of
treating all who share this wondrous
world of ours with tolerance and re
spect judging each fellow human on
his own merit, regardless of race,
creed, or color. That we agree on
and we'll never rest until it, becomes
a fact, rather than just a cherished
dream. Excelsior, Smiley.
Chuck isna good writer but he's lying in he doesn't put agendas in his comics. Im reading his Birds of Prey and he has a time-travelling story about the Vikings.
He twists history by saying the Vikings civilized the Native Americans and he portrays the Vikings as moral heroes and the Natives as savages.
@@joeparrigen4982 The only complaint I've heard about Chuck Dixon when it comes to comics is him putting a Bible In Nightwing's room, outside of that I've heard nothing from him about messages or agendas in comics and even so the quality of storytelling and characterization should always come first whether you're a traditional writer, progressive writer or Apolitical Writer otherwise you get extremism like modern wokeness.
@@bendu8282 you keep complaining about modern wokeness but the only extremism I've seen is on the right
@@bendu8282 I kept asking you myself how is this guy so stupid then I saw that you followed people like nerdrotic and midnight Edge and it became obvious
@@thenightmonkey5932 you’re statement sounds more politically driven then any genuine response to my point.
Rest in peace Kevin Conroy.
Marvel and DC have really slipped but Image and a lot of the smaller publishers like BOOM and AWA are putting out some great books
Bought BOOM's BRZRKR volumes 1 and 2 at Dutch Comic Con last saturday.
Great story and no political correct nonsense about strong women and gays.
Just a good, action-packed comic book.
We go back to the status quo, except with One More Day. The most hated event in the history of spider-man is the one event they don't freaking retcon.
Events used to have effects for at least a few years. Now, it's only a few months until the next event that "changes everything about the universe"
My problem is them making stories centered around fan favorite characters but them changing the characters for those stories. Like I don't like what they're doing with Jonathan. They didn't develop his personality enough before putting him in a spotlight it created a situation where people only know Jonathan kent as bisexual Superman
Pretty much this. People are just tired of the cycles and events with seemingly no stakes. This is why one of my favorite runs in comics was Geoff John's Green Lantern. It has a good beginning, a long middle where it struggled a bit to reach the finish line, but it did eventually end and I loved it for that. I tried to keep reading after that, with Simon Baz and Jessica Cruz, but I just lost interest. I saw an ending I liked and that was good enough.
THe lack of true stakes does make caring about anything hard to manage.
Also loved the last issue with GL and Carol Ferris + I felt like Hal really went thru character development, every other GL series won’t live up to that
@@emankhurram exactly. Couldn't agree more
Stan always said that "Someone comic is someone's first comic". I love that quote. But, I think people may have gone a bit too far with that quote. You jump into chapter 756 of One Piece, the writer will not hold back. He is in the middle of his story, and he's gonna tell it, by gum. Is that a bit gatekeepy? Yes. But what I think Stan meant isn't to keep making your comics end in a familiar place so that new readers aren't lost. It's to tell a story. Set things up. Pay things off. And keep the spirit of the characters and the series intact. And new readers will come. Heck. If you just tell a good story, a reader may actually decide to go back and read the previous 755 chapters.
I also like that you touched on Dragon Ball, Benny. Back in the day, you either loved Dragon Ball Z, or you didn't watch it. Now, even in the manga and anime community, it's getting more divisive. And I think the through line between Dragon Ball and modern comics is that every event and every story is suffering from Power Creep. Every story has to be the biggest story ever. They get so esoteric, either with retconning or power scaling, they kinda lose sight of the fact that they're writing about heroes? Who save people? When was the last time you saw superheroes coordinate in crowd control? My Hero Academia. Written by a guy who clearly loves superheroes, and isn't trying to be subversive.
By the way, I think you should twinsies with Andy. His hairstyle really frames both his and your faces very well.
I do agree
Many great points - A heroes should never really die unless it is for good. A greater focus should be put on the children of heroes if you want to transition original heroes out.Explore heritage of heroes! Robin and Batman has done this, but Bruce Wayne needs to age out! Let a new generation be the fresh voice, keep the originals in the background. You are correct on many levels! Also, I'd love to see people looking and supporting independent creators.
But money needs to be made.
Optimus Prime *Are you sure about that*
Because I have no idea who the publishers are writing them for. I don't even think they know. They're just chasing markets. And I say this as a person who has 40 years as a comic fan and nearly 30 years as a comic book retailer. I've been in comics longer than a lot of people on this channel have been alive and it saddens me to see the industry slowly fading away. It's not entirely the fault of the current crop of editors and writers. Comics have been on the decline since the 1970s. When my dad was a kid in the early 40s, a comic book was 12 cents. When I was a kid in the late 70s a comic book was 30 cents. That's around 30 years. Fast forward another 30 years and a comic book in 2007 averaged $3.99. That's not inflation. It's a shrinking market competing for disposable dollars.
The problem with western comics is that they’ve never heard the show business advice “leave them wanting more.” There’s absolutely no one asking for MORE content for these characters. You will get tired of the X-Men long before the X-Men get tired of you.
I stopped collecting comics but I'll never stop loving them. Every now and then I'll go to a comic book store to get that feeling of just being inside one back. Plus I'll crack open some of my old books too. But I haven't turned against comics because I don't like what's included in the stories like many have. Bennie is so right about the "I hate" culture in social media. Smh.
Thought I'd try bringing this back. We'll see if you guys agree, disgaree, just hate me. lol But let me know your thoughts on me talking things like this. Next I was going to go into Manga and Anime and why they seem to be outselling American comics.
For this I do touch briefly on the Woke Argument, but I honestly dont think thats it. The complaint Im refering to is the ones arguing nothing matters, oh this again. If people REALLY want I can go much deeper into the woke argument, but I honestly just havent cared enough to cover it lol.
I don’t have anything against black superheroes, some of my favorite characters are black (John Stewart for example), not female characters or gay characters. The toxic wokness that turned me away was first and foremost the writer’s toxicity on Twitter and media. And then they stated with the same shit in the dialogue in the comics themselves.
And I might add I’m a huge fan of Wildstorm and Apollo and Midnighter were awesome characters. It was so cool that my first encounter with gay superheroes were such badasses.
My problem with the "woke" stuff is that often they act like slapping the tag on something means no effort is needed to make the characters/story interesting and that it's rarely a new superhero you hear about with it, it's always let's "modernize" this character.
I see what you mean but for me it's different... Why no tales about how life is pointless until you make a point? How about tales that teach you why you wouldn't want to live forever? These comics are too afraid to dip their toes in emotion because they are afraid people will feel too deeply and judge the creators harshly... But the truth is that it's there... It's become a job. I work to create my show and it's unique comic book like world because I was a kid who had dreams... And do you know why I'll succeed where current comics sometimes but not always fail? I won't slack and call it work. This is my passion. We need to bring back the passion
I feel that addressing the “Woke” thing is just rolling out the red carpet for inevitable drama, might be best to let facts speak for themselves and letting people find their own conclusions at this point.
After collecting Spider-Man comics for my entire childhood, I decided it wasn't worth it after a certain Spider-Man storyline. This is from a while back but it culminated with Peter making a deal with Mephisto and undoing like over a decade of stories. Comicstorian is right that this is the norm for comics, but it was such a terrible way to handle it that it put me off comics ever since. I literally have bins full of amazing and ultimate Spider-Man comics that all abruptly end on the same date lol.
That was one of the worst things they ever did to Peter, not to mention one of the Dumbest. Give up your Wife for your very old Aunt who just TOLD you she wanted to pass on. I think the Writer also thought it was dumb and decided to do it in the most stupid way he could.
@@nobalkain624 There was a lot of insult to injury too. It was like the 500th comic special and a 25(?) Year anniversary. Like, maybe don't crap on the history of Spider-Man during the anniversary???? I want to open up my bins to find the exact issue but it's not worth the time.
That story line pretty much ended my interest in not only Spider-man but the entire MCU as well.
I hate how Marvel constantly tries to de age Spider-Man to keep him “relatable” when him being an adult stressing to pay rent and maintain a marriage is more realistic and relatable than being bullied in highschool for 60 years straight. Peter’s best stories come from when he’s out of highschool, yet everyone wants to keep retreading that same tired origin story of him being 15 with powers.
Ultimate spidey is a better example
I disagree with your statement that comic events don’t have a lasting effect. Civil War had a lasting effect for at least 3 years (death of Captain America, Superhuman Registration Act) before returning to the status quo. However, a lasting effect of Civil War was the death of Bill Foster/Goliath at the hands of the Thor clone Ragnorak. Apart from briefly returning as a zombie, Foster has stayed dead.
One thing I'm tired of definitely, is the ENTIRE FREAKING COMIC UNIVERSE ALWAYS BEING DESTROYED!!! It's like every time I turn around and the companies don't like what they're doing, they choose to destroy the entire thing by means of having one OP'ed character go on a bender and destroy the very fabric of all we came to know.....just so months later, they could make another, newer universe where everyone's younger and much more dramatic.
I mean marvel doesn't do this much, one of the big things about marvel is that unlike DC, they've had the same canon universe since the beginning. Everything from the first issue where we met human torch, to the xmen, to empyre has all been in the same universe. Technically it got shaken up a few times, but it's the same universe, the same events happened, and everything is more or less one continuity
I think for a lot of people they have a tipping point, (it happened to me with One More Day). Yeah it always has to go back to the status quo but eventually people get tired of it. On top of that younger people may not be as interested in comics and have moved to other forms like manga (as you said).
They could of had Peter have kids then pass on the mantle but nope
Um Benny, most of comics sales for the past few years have added manga to there numbers.
It's the constant world-ending stuff that has ruined comics for me. There used to be a time when the stakes were smaller scale and more personal. And they still had impact and were great works of writing and art. Kraven's Last Hunt is the perfect example. But in the past 10 years, every event or major story arc has been billed as "world-changing." And it just gets tiresome. There actually have been events with wide and long-lasting ramifications. The problem is a lot of them just aren't good. And editorial should really rein in writers that want to so radically change a character that the character becomes unrecognizable. A lot of these characters have become too widely popular for such writing directions to realistically last and be followed through. It's best to evolve a character incrementally over time with editorial requiring subsequent writers to respect developments by the preceding writers. Instead, things these days feel like a free-for-all on one hand, and on the other hand some of the worst decisions by editors and writers have stuck (such as the X-Men being turned into a communist, polyamorous, commune).
And yes, wokeness has irreparably ruined major characters and franchises. Captain America has been ruined by the Hydra Cap and then Daughters of Liberty and then Falcon being Cap simultaneously. Having both Peter and Miles as Spider-Man (and all other such duplicates) is stupid; I will never like there being multiples of the same hero in operation; it's unnecessarily complicated and makes comics unapproachable for normies. I can go on, but I'm sure people get my point.
It's all E.S.G. politics. Nothing is ever perfect but all this pop culture insanity seemed to start w/ the comic book industry.
Me personally, I'm tired of the repetition. Things will always be the same and that's fine for marketing but I'm not eating the same exact food every day and enjoying it
So the question is why do all these guys have such similar ideas, if I am a writer and I see that the guy who worked on the previous run has already done a story where batman loses the city to a particular villain, why do I go and do a similar story where he loses it to another villian. Even if that's the story I originally wanted to tell, I can't anymore, change it for goodness sake.
Yes comics have always tackled current issues. The difference is Stan Lee never said “if you don’t agree with my politics don’t read my book” or “cis white people are trash.”
Not to mention the quality of the writing has become awful. So not only are we being preached at, it’s not even in service to a good story. Instead of cleverly inserting a political statement or issue into the story the political statement IS the story with these modern writers. There’s no tact or creativity.
I haven’t bought a comic in years & have no plans to start until they quit making it blatantly about identity politics & far left wokeness.
Agreed. I feel out of all the comic companies Boom does this correctly, at least in the power ranger comics. The Death ranger and Journey are both gender neutral, only referred to as they, but no one makes a huge deal about it in the comic. No grand speeches about how people need to support them or entire pages dedicated to showing how they are oppressed for being different. They are just part of the story. And it’s not some last minute add in for diversity brownie points like Disney does.
Boy is lost in the sauce. Where are the comics that say cis white people are trash?
For me, it was the race and gender swapping. Not investing in already existing characters or build them for scratch.
Could it be because western comics companies openly hate fans of original material, introduce such beloved characters as "crippled spider man" or keep trying to force characters over and over and over again regardless of cancellations because they're self inserts like Ms marvel?
I like these characters, the problem is they didn't let the other characters live and breathe, they don't get to have their own battles, it's forced team ups. There's enough books for all of them to be existing, it's character mismanagement.
I just have a problem with the fact that the stories never end. I'd love a story that followed peter parker from his bite until the end of his life with a natural death or something. And while comics can do that, for some reason they are very reluctant to ever just make a contained story in a universe if it gets popular.
It's not so much that there aren't lasting consequences, but more that the superheroes stories are neverending.
The idea of having this huge universe where all characters are connected is cool, but turning it into a foundation just killed so many stories.
But what pisses me off the most is for sure relationships between characters. We all know they won't last. Spiderman will always break up with Gwen or Silk or Felicia, cause he has to go back to MJ. The X-men are basically having one infinite swinger thing going on with how often they switch partners. Superman can never stay with wonderwoman in the stories where it didn't work out with Louis, and ofc, the infamous time when batman was so close to marrying catwoman, but it just kinda didn't happen cause the city needed batman and batman needs to be FUCKING UNHAPPY. or something. I think the actual stories having no consequences - and even having no end - would be fine, if characters were allowed to have new relationships that lasts, cause at least then it feels like their life is going forward, even if they are always reset when it comes to character growth.
Spider-Man Life Story is what your looking for. It's a Six-issue mini (with a annual that stars JJJ) that starts with when Peter is bit and then follows his life if he (and the rest of the universe) aged normally, with each issue covering a decade. While it does feel a bit short (the author even admitted he want it to be 12 issues so he could do more since things like Black cat is skipped because of it) it is still an amazing read about what and who Spidey is!
The problem is what do you do after that? Either you have to retire Spider-Man as a character forever and do something else or you have to undo that whole story and keep doing new Spider-Man
@@johnnydo7138 They're still running a business. It makes zero sense for them to make their characters public domain
I love these daily conversations, Benny this truly amazing watching how well your arguments will be presented to everyone.
Always enjoy hearing your thoughts in comics.
Circular storytelling is the reason. Comic book fans know this definitely.
I still enjoy comics but I don't collect them as much as I used to. I was doing a bit of cleaning some time ago and noticed I have a few DC and Marvel stuff but I have a lot more less super hero focused ones.
NGL there's one huge bugbear among many smaller ones that made me not like american comics anymore and it's actually not even the wokeness or the circular event stuff (though I admit the wokeness argument certainly holds water ALONE), its actually to do (for me) with the fact that comics nowadays just don't feel right anymore. This is kind of a lengthy idea I had (and this may sound lame) but it took me playing Injustice, and getting Jay Garrick as a character to inspire me to backread read golden age/silver age comics. After delving into that era of comics I think the one thing newer comics are missing now are just genuinely good people doing good things with the powers they are given. To expand on this idea; I think people try and make heroes too complicated. There is some value to just having someone who is sincerely a good person; no drama, baggage or edge...just a dude with extraordinary powers with the goal of making the world a better place. Nowadays we have to corrupt EVERYTHING, make it subvert expectations, adapt it to a modern audience, add edgy backstory, add strange and dumb plotlines that make even characters as pure as SUPERMAN seem so edgy that emo 15 year old me coulda sighed at. I remember reading somewhere when the original writers of Superman talked about his creation; they said something along the lines of making a character who could just be a friend, a buddy to get you through hard times. And I feel like there is value there, and most writers won't do it because of a self percieved "Oh well that's just not realistic enough!" And all I can think of is..."You are writing about people with reality bending abilities wearing colorful costumes saving people from crazy shit all the time, and the first thing you're concerned with is REALISM?". Even if 90% of Manga/Anime protags are boring, good bois who fight for love and justice and the power of friendship, I can respect that WAY more than some writer trying to make heroes like Cap. America or Superman subversive edgelords. We get a handwave that "yeah they save people but look at how dark and brooding it is to be this hero" When I just wanna see more heroes just doing the right thing because it's the right thing to do. I'm worn out of all these shades of grey, give me a hero to inspire goodness, and inspire something other than ambivalent boredom whenever I see them. I wanna see a hero who is a light in the darkess, who smiles in the face of troubles, who will rescue a bunch of people just because it's the right thing to do and not because they're a tormented soul. Give me a hero who has REAL wit and not just jaded snarky sarcasm, and who looks like they are having FUN doing the heroing. And hell! Go ahead and make them LGBT, person of colour, women WHATEVER, those are secondary characteristics anyway and shouldn't be the focal point to the character! I just want to see a HERO, I don't wanna read about someone who is relatable to me because I know I'm already a subpar specimen of humanity as it is; I want to read an inspiring story of hope to get me to see the good in life and people with a person who goes BEYOND relatable humanity and shows EXCEPTIONAL human traits beyond the superpowers.
You are spot on with this breakdown. You do such a great job on this channel. I'm a 39 year old, proud and dedicated lifetime nerd, and your channel genuinely contributes to keeping me young.
I know you mentioned several times that even the most "major" events only ever have permanent repercussions upon minor characters. This pretty surely falls under that umbrella, but Swamp Thing and the Parliament of Trees are pretty consistent with keeping it permanent. I also, although of course by it's nature anything can be reversed, but I think The Flash continuity, while being instrumental in almost every absolute reset, does for DC try to measure that, in that speedsters do often pay the final price. As to Marvel, for me, that has always come down to John Proudstar, enough said (minor character status acknowledged).
Love your content. Thanks, and please keep it up!
(edit for typos)
Really just having circular story telling makes anything a character does pointless and without meaning. In some Else World stories where some real dark stuff happens it hits you so much harder as you know that it is, there will be consequences
"When you see the world end 4 times in one year, you get a little burned out". Nail on the head. I wanna be able to jump back in to more chill stuff, but if its always at 11, it just wears me out
My problem is they deleted the superboy jon kent I was enjoying from super sons and made deathstroke suck for a while now. I need to catch back up on deathstroke inc, but I haven't really enjoyed an American comic since bendis took over Superman.
...and for Mangas - I used to read "Fullmetal Alchemist" and "D-gray man" - but one ended and the other lost me because the artist is MIA (or has an illness). Those appealed to me because anime was on television. 🤨😉😮
D Gray Man is still ongoing but there's about 4 chapters a year or something like that.
While I agree with you a lot, I think it is a bit of a hand wave to say comics have "always been woke". Woke, by the modern sense, doesn't mean political-but falsely political for the sake of profits. There is a palpable difference between reading Black Panther a few years after a man was arrested for being black and a few years prior to when he was assassinated for the very same reason and what we are reading today. It's also ignoring how the political evolution of liberalism in entertainment-which is really what you are referring to by saying always woke-has evolved and warped over the years into something completely unrecognizable. The classical liberals of Stan Lee's time, who were writing about important issues that were clear as day to the average American, would be considered conservative by the modern Marvel writer. Agree with it or not, tons of moderate people are feed up with the condescension and political zealotry in views that are getting more and more divisive in this all or nothing arms race. Hell, we had a modern person used as a vehicle for Red Skull. That's nuts. And I am a libertarian. Hardly a conservative shill.
Add in all the issues you mentioned and what is the benefit of investing your time and money? What value is to be gained? I get to watch spider man lose it all again? For the 47th time? Woo.
There is a difference between political allegory and propaganda. Icon and Rocket's relationship as a conservative hero and a liberal sidekick by Dwayne McDuffie back in the 90s was political, yes. But It showed both sides to the argument, and they made each other better. But these days, it's all one side over the other, mostly liberals are right cons are bad. Not cool.
I wouldn't consider comics to have always been woke because many of the beloved stories aren't hateful or bigoted.
@@vernonhampton5863 Yeah conservatives do suck. Cope
Comics are meant to be a reflection or projection. If the writers politics change that will reflect on the story
@@OteimPrincewill Yeah, no. Comics are just as like any medium. They aren't unique in their presentation of their creator's work. When it comes to writing, there really are two types of writers. Those who seek to say something and those who seek to entertain. Stephen King said that in his book: "On Writing". Personally, I have always been the latter, attempting to sprinkle in representation of my ideas to tell a compelling story. The difference is in objective.
The issue is when you decide you "have* something to say, but aren't equipped to say it, you write absolute drivel with no value. Because even fucking Michael Bay entertains. Despite his movies being held up by explosions and Megan Fox's waistline. Modern comics fail to understand that. Holding the shield of "starting a conversation" to protect their weak ass deviant art garbage. Forged that way from refusing to criticize their own work honestly.
I drop out of comics when the stories no longer interest me.
I loved Jon Kent as a kid but when they aged him up I didn't enjoy the story as much. I loved the romance between Batman and Catwoman and when that big story line ended I kind of drifted away.
I'll pick up a comic that seems interesting and give it ago and stick around.
I also tend to read stories with characters that I like. I prefer my superman stories with Lois Lane in them as I grew up idolising her as a kid so I prefer superman stories where she is a main character.
That's why I drift in and out of comics.
Identity politics and comics’ age old issue of having way too many timelines and continuities that intimidate people like me from reading. Where manga does not suffer from such issues
Wasn't the comics numbers inflated due to them counting manga in the mix?
I tapped out at "Comics have always been woke".
No, comics have always been left-leaning, not "woke". Woke comics have storylines that involve superheroes openly advocating for "Activists", like Antifa, to use violence against people they disagree with. Not supervillains, not criminals, but people who hold a different political opinion. Woke comics make people like Jordan Peterson, who has never uttered anything even remotely sympathetic towards Nazis, racism, sexism, or bigotry of any kind, and turning him into a Nazi Supervillain! Woke comics involve turning almost every character gay, despite there being absolutely no reason to do so, other than to promote "THE MESSAGE". Those are Woke comics and they have completely saturated the comic industry and turned it into a dying medium. That's why guys like Ethan Van Sciver and the Rippaverse have been doing so well! People are craving good stories that are filled with good characters and good art! I like Comicstorian and will stay subscribed but he was way off the mark on this one.
It's a combination of everything really. The woke stuff, circular storytelling and the constant change of writers. Woke stuff because while comics have always tried to be woke and political, it usually felt new and different. The examples given were all new but nowadays the woke stuff oversteps its bounds by changing up existing characters or making the character an add-on to an existing character which just leads to awkward and weird storytelling. Returning to the status quo can be fine but there are times where it's done so poorly. All I need to say is, "look what they did to Spider-Man" and people will know exactly what I mean. The circular storytelling just gets tired and lazy after a certain point. Then the constant change with writers just adds the cherry on top of the mess because everyone obviously has their own ideas and that ego often doesn't continue off the one that came before. Whether the sales of comics are going up and down doesn't matter as it's hardly comparable nowadays to the collective sales of manga and how they've done nothing but go up. And that's also including anime being a companion piece that still generates vast interest in these stories. Just look at how much bigger Bleach got upon it's return after years without any real content
I noticed Benny didnt talk about how Characters having their Sexual Identity, Race, or Gender changed is a major complaint that was not done in the examples he brought up in Comics being WOKE. All his examples where new Ideas and Characters, not existing ones that are changed just to tick a box and get Twitter talking. Its the disrespect to what came before and the Fans that have driven me away.
This pretty much hits the nail on the head
Naw old comics was neutral
@@crimsonspider8579 god loves man kills? captain america quitting during the watergate scandal? Destiny and Mystique?
This rant got me wondering. What’s your opinion on non superhero American comics like sonic or ninja turtles? I feel when people say American comics they tend to leave those out and like manga they are easy to start and navigate.
The Ninja turtles are super heroes, that’s like saying daredevil isn’t a super hero.
@@MANTLO-hv5di fair enough but my point still stands about that series being easier to get into compared to marvel or DC stuff
yeah i stopped buying new comics after death metal. im just going through all the old stuff, still plenty to read
The woke thing isn't that there are gay/black/ female characters. It's because they're taking existing characters and changing them to fit modern politics. Tim Drake, Harley Quinn, Poison Ivy, the OG Green Lantern Alan Scott, Superman's son John Kent. The list goes on. All straight characters turned gay recently in the comics because of the movent in the alphabet community. That works for the other examples too. There are plenty of great black characters like Black Panther, Storm, Blade, John Stewart, but all of a sudden that's not good enough. Now Batman, Superman, Spiderman, and Nick Furry have to be black too. Just create more great characters or bring existing ones into the mainstream. All these examples show that change isn't always good.
Since when was Jon Kent straight?
What about the original Secret Wars? Does Venom not count as something with a lasting impact that came from an event story?
Or Civil War. That had some serious lasting effects that still affect the Marvel universe today.
Venom didnt really come from Secret Wars. The Costume did, but they had no idea what it would be or even expected it to last beyond Secret Wars. Keep in mind Secret Wars was written to sell Toys, it was not meant to carry over and have any lasting effects. Even if you want to claim I am being nit picky it still only really effect Spider-man and his Comics.
@@DavidMartinez-ce3lp Not really, only a few Characters had any lasting effects, and even then unless you knew about it it only has an effect because you know about it, new readers wouldnt and dont even need to for things to make sense. Unless a Writer decides to directly reference it Events can mostly be forgotten as time goes on.
@@nobalkain624 nah secret wars has been incredibly important for a long time, you definitely haven't been reading many comics if you think it's had no lasting impact
@@apersonwhomayormaynotexist9868 Been reading since I was a Kid in the 80's. Name one thing beyond Venom that still has impact to this day that was a direct result of Secret Wars. While WE may see it as a Big Event, and it shaped how Comic Book Events happen to this day, inside the Comics the Original Secret Wars isnt even referenced anymore. The last time would be during the last Secret Wars were they Retconned Deadpool into it the Original.
Creativity lacking in mainstream comics because of the copyright strangle hold
I'd argue Death in the Family had lasting consequences. Batman learned what it was to lose Robin and he's had that on his mind ever since. War Games gave him a reminder. Even after Jason came back, he wasn't the same.
Killing Joke, while it may not have had lasting effects for Batman, fundamentally changed the trajectory of Barbara Gordon's life until Simone reversed it years later.
It's not impossible just rare. Also, I don't buy your "woke" argument but I can't properly dissect it in a yt comment
thank you so much comicstorian. I never thought of this. this really helped.
People love X-23 as X-23 her becoming wolverine just doesn't feel right. I feel the exact way about Falcon, the only Captain Falcon I like is in Smash Brothers lol. I don't mind building the characters but outright changing their names sucks. The problem with this as well now you've deleted X-23 and have two Wolverines removing the uniqueness of her character. The real goal should be for X-23 to become as relevant as Wolverine.
I find it very hard to get into comics it sooo much easier to read manga in every single way if the comic industries wants to survive they need to take notes from the manga industry is sooo much bigger than the comic book industry
So you've never heard of Image comics or Dark horse comics?
Check out the invincible comic it’s wrote from beginning to end and a great story you might like it
As a relatively new reader, I can always go back to older books from before I started reading. I am now Appolo and Midnighter and loving it!!!
I mostly agree with what you said.
Personally I switched over to anime a long time ago because nothing in comics matter. If nothing matters I have no reason to be invested in or care about anything happening. I was reading out of obligation, and once a jumping off point presented itself I took it.
My favorite comic is when Batman loses his city and learns to trust people
The wokeness is not necessarily the storylines. It's the hiring practices of the big two. For some reason, some people think their placement in the oppression olympics equals writing talent. These non talented writers usually aren't even about heroes. There is a lot less fighting and a lot of unnatural dialogue. So, the wokeness isn't a black crippled super hero, it's terrible writing.
It's also the way they interact with the community. Using their minority status to wave off criticism and blanketing the fans as various insults. A lot of people who talk about the wokeness talk about how diverse comics used to be. They talk about how pointless all the grandstanding is because its nothing new in comics
With X Men they weren't meant to be a civil rights allegory. Stan Lee made them mutants cause he didn't feel like coming up with unique origin stories for each of them. You can be progressive and still not be woke especially when it feels like you're talking down to the audience.
The thing about Wolverine wasn't because of a story. It was because Marvel had an axe to grind with Wolverine because of Fox.
People hated Parker Industries because it was built off the back of Superior Spider-Man. Peter didn't earn it. Come on man. I'm not gonna be gaslit. These changes were brought on because of cynicism. If there was more of a story reason and not corporate bullshit or writers' biases we would be more accepting. Ben Reilly is acceptable but they keep trying to change him because he threatens Peter.
As much as people complain about 90s comics, there were continuing stories since the 60s before the status quo starting getting big in the 2000's. Some example include, The Infinity Gauntlet, Maximum Carnage, Knightfall, Death of Superman, Parallax, MJ's pregnancy, Asteroid M, Onslaught and even Age of Apocalypse. Now, while they did go back to typical day in Gotham or what's new at the X-Mansion, there were still lingering events the effected future stories.... Azrael became a new hero, MJ is about to have a girl, Superman had died and the threat of Doomsday was there, Adam Warlock / Silver Surfer were aware of the infinity Gauntlet...and so on. It just feels like the ones responsible for carrying on a specific storyline were dropped in favor of constantly rebooting, resetting stories to meet a market; while some backlash persisted to ignore the long-term fans who still supported them. It is what is is at the end of the day but that just stinks.
Im a person in my mid 20s who was in love with comics and as everyone else in love with the batman lore. As i grew older i realized those comics dont have soul. The writers just write the books bc its their job and they r good at writing but non of them understand or love the charactets....
It's basically always been rinse and repeat,the basic story of good vs evil can only be told in so many ways, I have loved the journeys over the years and accepted that these writers etc are still trying to run a business so finding a balance between keeping fans and bosses happy must be tricky, reboots etc are needed to help bring in new fans and to bring characters up to date,remember when supeman could only leap and batman had a gun 😮
Only thing better than the crow is spawn ❤️🔥
Not all but most yes.
This was a really good video! Great job, was a fun listen
I understand and accept that American superhero comics are circular story telling and that one the run ends we go back to status quo. I just wish that the time between a run starting and the return to status quo took longer. Instead of having one big arc, have multiple that in some way or another built off each other. Once the run has met it’s conclusion then return to status quo.
I guess my frustrations are more so focused on Batman currently due to how frequently it’s been swapping writers recently
My problem with "woke" agaenda is It doesn't feel natural unlike the early days where being "woke" in comics is just a reflection of what you see in that time so it feels natural.. but now if feels like there trying to force you to believe some agenda..
Everything you said was fair, but what I don’t like when the mantle is passed it’s like they are always condescending talking down to the reader. I’ll use iron fist as an example In heart of the dragon issue six Okoye wants to give iron fist back his power and he states that’s not how it works it’s hers now. Danny states that I wasn’t good at in the first place, so the last 48 years means nothing? If they wanted to de power Danny Pei was already established as inherited the iron fist why not her? Then you get we finally have the first Asian iron fist, like there hasn’t been others before Danny established in the lore? Lin Lie was already his own original Asian hero character the sword master, but only when he takes the mantle of another character is when people take notice. Just swapping and no respect to what came before.
I loved this video Benny hope you do more of this!! But this time get a chair you nay get tiered 😂
this is why I'm more of a fan of Manga and Manhua now
and I think it might be the same for most people who made the change