Lionel Trains 1958 Buying as a "Collector" : Volume 2
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- čas přidán 16. 06. 2024
- A second trip back in time to visit 1958 and Purchase Lionel Toy trains from the consumer catalog as a "Collector". So using the knowledge of today and spending 250.00 to getting the most bang for your buck!
What would you buy?, What would you cut from your list and why? It all hinges on what you collect and what you value from the catalog. Do you pick a rare Lionel engine or rare separate sale box??
The video is long, but chock full of information about what is hard to find and what is considered common. Manufacturing data was used to help with some of the decisions.
Fun and challenging episode to make, hope you like it!. Brian
Part of the Rare and unusual Postwar Lionel trains shown on this channel. - Zábava
This was a fun series. It made a “catalog” video much more interesting.
Thanks. It was longer than I would have liked it, but had so much to cover on how I decided to spend the money. Such a great catalog for Lionel. Appreciate the comment. Brian
The time travel shopping is always interesting. Trains, cars, airplanes and stock. Even the back to the future sports betting. I might steal the originals my grandad gave me new and replace them so I would have the pristine originals today. Great series, thanks.
Thanks, pretty cool to do so for sure. Had to make some tough choices on what to buy!. Love to go back just to look around!. Thanks Bria
That girls train is looking a lot more enticing when viewed from a collectors perspective than a teenage boys!
Those days, everything for girls was colored like Pepto Bismol, seems like.
Yeah, I think that's why collectors go for it. It's always the oddball that they would not have bought as a KID, but have to have now! I know it was. long episode, thanks for your patience, Lots to get too. Brian
@@BriansTrainRoom I think the other reason the girls train failed is that it was the wrong era. My wife has the MTH Tinplate O gauge train with the 263e and 2800 series cars. She thinks the color palette looks better with the baked enamel finish tinplate and not so great on a plastic postwar train. Tinplate works best with beautiful, unrealistic colors and I have to wonder if a girls train would have worked in the late 20s to mid 30s before Lionel started switching to a duller, more realistic colors on tinplate and the introduction of die cast and plastic trains.
For collector's purposes, the girl's set would be tops for my shelf/box queen. I would also add either 746 set, probably the smoking caboose one. Evans Auto Carrier with all 4 cars too. It would be interesting to do an eBay Completed Listings search to see what your items are selling for. 😉👍
For sure, the J set has been very popular on the collector and Kid side of this video. So hard to not spend more than 250 and get what you want!. Both great sets!!
I still say the Virginian electric and caboose and the girls train are the coolest thing in the catalog.
Agreed
For Sure, the jump off the page and as a collector, they are key pieces to have! I know this episode was super long, so thanks for your patience. Brian
I'm really enjoying the new series Brian. This makes us think what if we could go back with $1000! 😃
That would be fantastic and I would LOAD UP! Thanks Brian
What a great concept for a video! Great job!
Yeah, I know it's a long one, but some great information to get through. A lot tougher than it sounds. Thanks. Brian
I believe you narrowed it down to some great choices for a collectors point of view. If only one were to have a time machine and go back lol.
As for suggestions for future videos, I wouldn’t mind seeing a little more of your spectacular layout that lurks in the background. As far as I can tell, you only have one video for the kids. It definitely looks like it fits the part of a nice traditional toy train layout that I absolutely love to see!
I am so with you. Would be a fantastic time. Brian
Brian, this was a fun little 2-part thought experiment! I don't know if I could ever settle things for myself, but I can tell you that my choices probably wouldn't differ as much between being a kid and being a collector- because my style of collecting is generally about buying the trains I find the most visually appealing and fun to play with. I respect and appreciate everyone who searches for those rare, hard to find sets and boxes... but even knowing how desirable they are, you implored the viewer to look at things from the perspective of what they like to collect, personally. And what I personally want in my collection isn't necessarily what's most rare and collectable.
All this said, I know without a doubt I'd need a 746, either via set or separate sale. I doubt I'd ever get bored watching a 2526WS run around a layout or a simple loop of track on the floor, maybe it's worth the hefty $89.95 price tag...
I absolutely love those sharp, stylish New Haven ALCo FAs, either by separate sale or set, that matching A-A would be coming home with me too.
Those two O27 military sets look so neat, something about the many flat cars loaded with all kinds of equipment really entertains me.
I love the look of the Virginian rectifier, and both sets it was offered with look fantastic- but so does outfit 2517 with its colorful Rio Grande F3 A-B and matching caboose. And many of my favorite cars that also come in the cheaper rectifier set...
And then 2159W looks so colorful, and I just know that FM Trainmaster will pull anything I put behind it!
As the collector I am, I know I'd have to order something from the HO section of the catalog. The HO rectifier is an absolute must-have, whether bought separate or with its set. Set number 5717 appeals to the B&M fan in me, but unfortunately Lionel was relying on Athearn to supply their HO products for 1958, and Athearn was having problems with the tender drive for the 0615 B&M pacific that was supposed to lead the outfit. The striking 5714 New Haven passenger set also appeals to my collector side, as in addition to being a lovely looking set, the passenger cars are extremely difficult to locate due to their lack of distinguishing features that set them aside from common Athearn production- making it virtually impossible to ID a Lionel car unless it is still in the original box. Another essential buy would be the 181 cab controller- these were exclusively separate sale, intended for use with the 0102 fixed voltage supply. Despite being cataloged for three years starting in 1958, they're extremely tough to find in any condition.
Now, what year should you look at next? Well, virtually every year of Lionel's postwar era was interesting in one way or another. Personally, I think it would be really interesting to have a look at 1946- Lionel's first year of full train production after the war. The Electronic set, the new 726 Berkshire and 2020/671 turbine, with double worm drive, "madison" heavyweights, and the little O27 221 New York Central 2-6-4 steamer playing at being a Dreyfuss styled hudson... 1946 had a lot to offer, from brand new items to pre-war carry-overs. I think it could be a fun contrast to 1958, showing Lionel just entering the postwar era, versus 1958, a year full of 1950s classics.
Thanks for the reply and the insight. This exercise for both the KID and Collector is certainly a personal journey!. There are some really rare and desirable items in 1958 and I tried to dig into each of item and figure out how to balance them. If I was just going for RARE, I would have all Separate sale engines sets. The 249,LT 1585LTS, 209, 2242 646LTS ETC. If I was just a set collector it would have been the J set, Budd set and the Santa Fe sets. In reality, the 119 tunnel is probably the hardest to find nice of all of them!!
Totally didn't get into HO, Mostly because I don't know enough about it, but I know there were some GEMS in that part of the catalog. Will probably put a disclaimer up when I do a catalog from the 60's to say that I will not discuss the science or race sets then either!
I know it was a long episode, so thanks for your patience and for watching, Brian
@@BriansTrainRoom Brian, Greenberg did some guides on the HO stuff- one in the '80s on the postwar line, and then later they did a two-part series revisiting the postwar line in volume 1, and for volume 2 they covered the MPC era. I have access to the older book, so I spent a while reading it after I wound up with a free Lionel postwar HO set one year and decided to learn a little about it.
Most Lionel HO is scarce, but it doesn't have the same collecting audience as O gauge products- there are fewer collectors, who usually specialize in it, from what I've been able to tell. Certain items are extremely common, like the 0566 Texas Special and 0565 Santa Fe ALCos which were available for many years in multiple sets. The products from 1957 were supplied by Rivarossi, with a few remaining stock items carrying over to 1958 when Lionel contracted with Athearn. The Rivarossi and Athearn pieces are especially collectable, particularly pieces like the 0610 2-8-0 consolidation and the 0560 Rio Grande Snow Plow.
Generally HO pieces, even at higher prices, are much cheaper to collect than the O gauge products. They don't get as much attention as Lionel O gauge, so there is likely still a number of undocumented variations.
Lionel HO sets came with trains packed in individual boxes for a while, but starting around 1963 or 1964 sets came without components in individual boxes but rather an insert for the set box. I suspect trains made in the 1963-1965 time period like the 0593 and 0594 geeps are very tough to find with separate sale boxes.
One of the most sought after pieces in the HO line is the 0561 M&StL rotary snow plow, especially boxed. The 0055 M&StL switcher, by contrast, is one of the most common pieces you can find, as it headed up cheaper HO catalogued sets for several consecutive years in the 1960s. However, usually it came without the diecast ornamental horns. I believe only earlier production models had them. You can tell if it was not produced with the horns by checking the holes where the horns would locate in the shell- if they look unmarred and painted, it never had horns.
Lionel HO is interesting, but definitely a category currently reserved for the specialist. Keep an eye out though, there are some nice HO pieces that can compliment an O gauge collection- like an 0597 or 0593 Northern Pacific GP9 to match the O gauge 2349, or an 0535 Santa Fe A-B ALCo with horn to match the O-27 218 A-B combo.
And of course, who can forget the 1960 "father and son"/"over and under" combo O and HO set!
Many HO pieces no longer run due to their use of rubber drive belts. They can be a pain to replace, but 1.5mm cs x 19mm ID silicone O rings work extremely well in the ALCo, GP7/GP9, and Rectifier models made from 1959 to 1962 (in 1963 Lionel moved away from rubber drive belts). Belts for Athearn pieces are easy to get, but Athearn belts usually dry rot very quickly and a synthetic rubber alternative should be used for longer belt life.
@@leverettrailfan5414 Thanks for the lesson on HO trains. I was aware that there are some really cool and rare HO, but not sure what. The only one I know is the Dummy A Alaska Alco is rare. Love the Alaska stuff! Thanks. Brian
@@BriansTrainRoom Brian, there are definitely a number of special HO pieces... too many to put in one CZcams comment. The 0587 Alaska dummy A is indeed a rare piece- all the Alaska units are harder pieces to find, being only offered in 1959, but while the powered 0567 A and 0577 dummy B were included in one catalogued outfit, #5729, the 0587 was a seperate sale only item
For the same reason (one-year offering, not included in any sets) the 0586 Texas Special dummy A is also an extremely tough piece to locate.
A few other interesting things to note-
most of the HO produced in 1957 by Rivarossi and in 1958-1960 by Athearn can be identified as Lionel by looking for a tiny Lionel logo stamped on the side- this was sometimes the only detail differentiating a Lionel piece from a normal Rivarossi/Athearn product. There are exceptions to the rule, such as the Athearn-made passenger cars. Usually the Lionel catalog illustration showed Lionel numbers on the items, but in practice this only applied to the Pennsylvania and Texas Special passenger cars produced by Athearn, and the 0590 Rectifier which was a joint Athearn/Lionel piece where Lionel supplied the shell and Athearn supplied the chassis.
The 0600 and 0610 Rivarossi steamers bear no markings whatsoever to indicate they are Lionel products- there are spotting features, but they are very subtle. On both locomotives, variations in the cab windows can help identify a Lionel piece. this is especially easy with the 0610, as it had a rounded window that didn't resemble a north-american prototype. They will also have NMRA 'horn hook' couplers, whereas older Rivarossi production had european style couplers.
Watch out for zinc rot on Rivarossi-made locomotives!
Zinc rot also sometimes plagues the trucks of Lionel-made pieces, namely 0535 Santa Fe ALCos and some 0645W tender trucks.
All of the whistling steamers are less common pieces, with the 0645 being most common, followed by the 0646, and the 0647 being the rarest, having only been produced in 1966. The uncatalogued 0637 pacific is a rare Lionel piece that also dates to around 1966. Note that the 0647 and 0637 both used paper labels glued to the cab sides, these can be damaged or missing. Underneath the labels, the locomotives were heat-stamped for earlier models- I acquired a pacific that was stamped 0646 on the cab, but there was glue residue over the numbers, in the shape of the paper cab labels.
One interesting and fairly collectable piece is the 0050 gang car- despite being catalogued from 1959 through 1963, it's not the easiest motorized unit to locate. It's a great piece for the variation collector, because there were several color variations over the course of its 5-year production.
There were several different colors the 0865 series gondolas came in, the hardest to find is the brown painted car with yellow lettering. They also came in black with white lettering, gray with black lettering, red with white lettering, and blue with white lettering. After around 1962 Lionel stopped updating their heat stamps to match the catalog number for the car. In 1963 Lionel also switched from sprung to solid trucks on freight cars, which can help with IDing catalog number- but original boxes are ideal.
The 0864 series was the HO version of the 6464 series- around 1965 or 1966 it was replaced by the 0874 series, coinciding with a change in tooling. Whereas several 0864 cars were catalogued over the years, the 0874 series had only two cars, decorated for the B&M and the New York Central- paint schemes also covered by the 0864 series. The 'State of Maine' 0864 is a neat car to collect, because there are three different versions of it, made by three different manufacturers- in 1957 it was produced by Rivarossi, in 1958 by Athearn, and in 1959 by Lionel.
Most of these pieces are items I do not yet have, but I've been getting very into collecting Lionel HO. It's lack of popularity and the many cases where there is a matching HO and O gauge product make it very interesting to me, and prices are often much lower than for comperable O gauge pieces.
It's definitely worth learning about, even if you never plan to collect the HO line, from the perspective of seeing how Lionel's O and HO product lines influenced each other- like how the HO bridge developed for the 0110 trestle set became the load for the 6825 flat car, or how the 0319 HO helicopter car shares its mechanism and copter with the 3619 Helicopter Reconnaissance car. The headlight bulb for the General lit the headlights of HO steamers, and the diesels were lit by the same lamps that illuminated 68 inspection cars and Super O switches. The motor Lionel developed for their HO locomotives was used to power the 65 handcar. A modified 2-position E-Unit provided the basis for the HO whistle relay. The list goes on! HO is an interesting chapter in Lionel train history, even if it can never hold a candle to what they were doing in O gauge. At the end of the day, O gauge has more heft, durability, reliability, and variety. And good old 3-rail track.
An excellent final list. I probably would have swapped out a different car or two, but no real difference with my choices. Lopping off the passenger sets was a good thing. Why have a named railroad locomotive and go with the generic Super Speedliner cars? Bah. Maybe your next list should come from one of the early, post-war catalogs. The 1948 version would be an excellent choice, as they just started with the F3's and newer steam locomotives. An excellent video, as always.
Thank for the reply. Yeah, had to make some tough choices and really tried to diversify my collection. In actuality, my list should have been all Separate sale stuff and NO sets. But there are a few really great sets I had to keep. The 2518W is actually no slouch. The Set-box is rare and the passenger car boxes are super tough to find! But at 75.00 it didn't make the cut!. Thanks. Brian.
As for rarity and collectable items you did great. Can I borrow that time machine lol!
Yep, I sent it out for repairs! Fellow train collector, so I hope I get it back soon! Brian
I'd like to see a follow up where you see how much of that list you can pick up with $250 today, reckon you'd be doing pretty well if you got two of the freight cars and the tunnel.
Good question. Checking on what most of those items are going for now... 250 doesn't get much. Even the 119 tunnel sells for around 400.00 in nice shape! The Freight cars are tough as well, the SOO and Monon boxcars are at least 300.00 each these days. New in boxes a whole lot more! That's why that 250.00 almost anyway you spent it back then would have been a solid buy even today! Thanks, Brian
I've enjoyed these two videos, but I must add that while the 2242 New Haven F3 ABs are easy to find, I believe their separate sale master carton is very rare. Sold one as part of a collection a number of years ago for over $4500, unfortunately I was selling for someone else so I didn't get the money, haha. That being said, you have a much more extensive knowledge base than me on the collectors side, so I appreciate the insight of your selections.
Yeah, the 2242 separate sale in it's master carton would have been also a fantastic addition and I should have given it more consideration. There were some great separate sale stuff that year. Good choice for sure! Brian
Keep up the good work!
I would go back and order the whole catalog times 3……
Yeah, but you only got 250.00. What would you do with it? Tough choices. Thanks. Brian
Enjoyable set of videos and appreciate the insight into your decisions. I was wondering if you could calc the current value of your final lists (episodes 1 & 2) to see what the original $250 might be worth today.
Yeah, I thought of that and let me get back with you on that one. I usually don't talk specific prices on items, but a round number of value as of 2024 would be reasonable. I'll work on that tonight. Brian.
Ok, so a quick look at past auction results for LN pieces for collect episode was 12,000 in value today to replicate the list. The Kid version was about 7,500. Give or take.
@@BriansTrainRoom Thanks Brian - a nice investment for sure, even for the kid's version. You certainly picked winners for your final collectors list. Thanks again for the video and the current value.
@@DavidLevine My pleasure. Hard to have gone wrong with anything from 1958. Thanks. Brian
From a collector's standpoint, I would spend the $250.00 that my aunt gave me and buy five Girls Sets (1587S).
Today, they would be worth at least $35,000.00
Just saying.
So true, but against the rules. I didn't talk much about it in this episode, but did in Volume 1. You only get ONE of each item. Makes it more fun!!! Now, if those 5 Girls sets were still sealed, you are talking 25K each!!! Wow!
Sorry,
I forgot about buying only one of each item.
In that case, I would buy one Girls Set and spend the leftover $200.00 on ice cream.
In the future, that used set would be worth at least $7,000.00
LOL
@@BriansTrainRoom
In 1958 $200.00 would buy you $2,173.49 worth of ice cream in today's money.
I LOVE IT !!!!
@@roccodirico9737 That would be a S%$^ Load of Ice cream back in they day. Love it.