Is it correct that the wheel rate for an inclined spring is less than if the spring is vertical, as suggested above, but when compressing an inclined spring firms up. As you mention the arm and spring start to approach 90°. When rolling in a corner though, the same applies to an inclined spring, the angle between the car centre line and the spring also increases which would mean it firms up as well. Great videos which me and my driving buddy follow religiously but this subject is creating some debate. Any comments would be appreciated.
I know its been a year but its annoying enough to comment lol, you are absolutely right and no it doesn't matter if you are jumping or cornering , JQ and Ryan Harris are the ones to pay attention to, we are all dumber for watching this video lol 😆
@@paultonks4709 overall, outside on the shock tower is stiffer. #1 the stiffness is relative to the shock angle to the a-arm. the more even the shock is to the a-arm the stiffer it is. normally an off-road shock tower is set-up to work like this... outside hole keeps even stiffness throughout the a-arm angle (think of it like a hard single rate spring). the inside hole starts soft and gets stiffer as it compresses (think of it like a soft to hard dual rate spring). when they are both fully compressed that are usually around equal stiffness!!! (in a normal off-road setup)!!! so yes sometimes, the inside hole on the tower can be stiffer at full compression (and!!!) sometime the outside hole can be stiffer... it's all relative to (#1 on top). but at a-arm level, the outside hole is always stiffer and overall stiffer unless you have some crazy setup (like the a-arm pointing up at ride-height).
You have it backward! When when the shock only moves a little because it is laying down then there is little effect of the shock which means it is softer. When it is mounted more perpendicular to the control arm it receives most if not all of the movement and the shock is more effective and is therefore stiffer.
You are correct. As the shock gets closer to perpendicular relative to the suspension arm the spring acts more directly on the arm. In effect, the spring rate increases as the shock is compressed (i.e., “rising rate” geometry). The more leaned over it is the less of this effect you get (i.e, less change in the spring rate and dampening), which will make the suspension more responsive (i.e. softer). Lean over in loose conditions, stand up for big hits or high traction. Traxxas has a good article on this: traxxas.com/news/suspension-tuning-guide-part3
You got it backwards. You are right that more vertical shocks are more effective as they are more aligned with the vertical force, this is why the spring is more effective. So the suspension is firmer. You got the first part right, conclusion backwards.
It's as simple as mounting the shocks vertically and more laid down and compressing the suspension by hand from the wheel. More vertical feels softer, more laid down feels stiffer.
@@invisiblespeedrc I've literally mounted the shocks both ways and felt them with my own two hands. I've also made measurable adjustments to ride height based on shock angle. Vertical is softer. It's basic physics.
doctormosfet you need to readjust ride height based on the height of the holes. If the holes on the tower are angled heavily, laying down the shock may raise the rideheight. This doesn’t mean the suspension is firmer. Here’s some basic physics. If you want to push a car, is it easier to push it in the direction of travel, or at an angle to the direction of travel? The springs are supporting the weight of the car, think about it.
@@invisiblespeedrc if you push the shock at an angle, the fraction of your force that is translated to the shock is proportional to the cosine of the angle between your vertical force and the shock's angle against that vertical. The shock itself isn't stiffer, but as seen by the input force, it's "effectively" stiffer. This is why when you change the angle you will notice a difference in effort required to move the arms up and down.
The shock is not getting any lateral or vertical forces, the only forces that are being applied to it are from the shock mounts. Only the traction point of the tires are getting lateral/vertical forces. Shock mount positions - in general the further away you mount the shock from the arm pivot the more compression resistance you will get. Closer, you will get less compression resistance. (think of leverage). Shock angle? in general this changes the ramp up profile of the shock (will it ramp up more or ramp up less during compression) and it doesn't matter if the compression is from landing or cornering. all the shock feel is its being compressed These are just general terms, it gets complicated as the angles/forces changes throughout the travel of the suspension. Suspension designers use computer models to help them achieved the outcome they're looking for.
he explained shock angles as if his truck has solid axles instead of independent suspension.. going off my memory I believe you lose 3% of the shocks vertical stiffness for every degree away from vertical on solid axle mounted shocks. for independent suspension that theory assumes that the shock is straight up and down only when perpendicular to the control arm its mounted on in static position... Therefore as you lean your shocks over further a progressive effect takes place as the suspension compresses because the angle will get closer to parallel as the arm swings when the suspension compressed even with linear springs. so more angle SHOULD (most of the time) in theory improve tire contact over rough surfaces by allowing the suspension to float over bumps but react more stiffly to a sustained load.
It really seems like this guy had pretty much everything wrong. Less than 90 deg. angle means less force applied to shock; "softer". NOT stiffer. NONE of the force is being applied to the shock from the side, that's why you have control arms.
Thank u sir . Im having a custom b6.2 rear tower made that stands up more as my local track is very high speed two big jumps . As it steps out when i try to put power down .
If you're putting power down on corner exit, then I'd expect some of that as the car is still turning and the lateral component of the apparent suspension stiffness is higher with standup shocks than if they're more laid down. Standup shocks work well on a bumpy surface, but for big jumps, especially with hard landings, laying the shocks down works better as it leads to a more progressive suspension (i.e., the apparent vertical stiffness increases as the shock compresses, because as the arm moves during compression, it's also changing the shock angle).
I notice that after adjusting trims going forward is straight but reverse is curved. When I straighten reverse then moving forward curves..how does that happen ? And what's the likely solution?
hi, i just assembled a kyosho javelin. I notice after assembley that there is unequal droop in the rear shocks..could u tell me how to adjust the droop please?
Check the length of the shock at full extension. You may have one of the eyelets screwed in more on one shock than the other. Also look at the arms without the shocks connected. Do they droop the same? If not, then the shocks aren't the problem.
doctormosfet I checked the shocks at full extension a few timesit's the same. Arms dropped down without shocks also same length. But maybe I screwed one of the shocks too tight. I'll take it for a test again.
This is not really "correct" my dude... If anyone wants to learn how this stuff really works, look up a vid on here called "how to determine your shock absorber mounting points", by doug bug. He explains all of the effects of this very well (and explains what's actually going on)...
You are wrong. Laydown shocks will generally soften the suspension. Stood up shock will make more stiff suspension feel
Depends on if you're talking about jumping or cornering.
Is it correct that the wheel rate for an inclined spring is less than if the spring is vertical, as suggested above, but when compressing an inclined spring firms up. As you mention the arm and spring start to approach 90°.
When rolling in a corner though, the same applies to an inclined spring, the angle between the car centre line and the spring also increases which would mean it firms up as well.
Great videos which me and my driving buddy follow religiously but this subject is creating some debate. Any comments would be appreciated.
I know its been a year but its annoying enough to comment lol, you are absolutely right and no it doesn't matter if you are jumping or cornering , JQ and Ryan Harris are the ones to pay attention to, we are all dumber for watching this video lol 😆
@@paultonks4709 overall, outside on the shock tower is stiffer. #1 the stiffness is relative to the shock angle to the a-arm. the more even the shock is to the a-arm the stiffer it is.
normally an off-road shock tower is set-up to work like this... outside hole keeps even stiffness throughout the a-arm angle (think of it like a hard single rate spring). the inside hole starts soft and gets stiffer as it compresses (think of it like a soft to hard dual rate spring). when they are both fully compressed that are usually around equal stiffness!!! (in a normal off-road setup)!!! so yes sometimes, the inside hole on the tower can be stiffer at full compression (and!!!) sometime the outside hole can be stiffer... it's all relative to (#1 on top).
but at a-arm level, the outside hole is always stiffer and overall stiffer unless you have some crazy setup (like the a-arm pointing up at ride-height).
You have it backward! When when the shock only moves a little because it is laying down then there is little effect of the shock which means it is softer. When it is mounted more perpendicular to the control arm it receives most if not all of the movement and the shock is more effective and is therefore stiffer.
You are correct.
As the shock gets closer to perpendicular relative to the suspension arm the spring acts more directly on the arm. In effect, the spring rate increases as the shock is compressed (i.e., “rising rate” geometry). The more leaned over it is the less of this effect you get (i.e, less change in the spring rate and dampening), which will make the suspension more responsive (i.e. softer).
Lean over in loose conditions, stand up for big hits or high traction.
Traxxas has a good article on this: traxxas.com/news/suspension-tuning-guide-part3
You got it backwards. You are right that more vertical shocks are more effective as they are more aligned with the vertical force, this is why the spring is more effective. So the suspension is firmer. You got the first part right, conclusion backwards.
It's as simple as mounting the shocks vertically and more laid down and compressing the suspension by hand from the wheel. More vertical feels softer, more laid down feels stiffer.
No its the opposite
@@invisiblespeedrc I've literally mounted the shocks both ways and felt them with my own two hands. I've also made measurable adjustments to ride height based on shock angle. Vertical is softer. It's basic physics.
doctormosfet you need to readjust ride height based on the height of the holes. If the holes on the tower are angled heavily, laying down the shock may raise the rideheight. This doesn’t mean the suspension is firmer. Here’s some basic physics. If you want to push a car, is it easier to push it in the direction of travel, or at an angle to the direction of travel? The springs are supporting the weight of the car, think about it.
@@invisiblespeedrc if you push the shock at an angle, the fraction of your force that is translated to the shock is proportional to the cosine of the angle between your vertical force and the shock's angle against that vertical. The shock itself isn't stiffer, but as seen by the input force, it's "effectively" stiffer. This is why when you change the angle you will notice a difference in effort required to move the arms up and down.
The shock is not getting any lateral or vertical forces, the only forces that are being applied to it are from the shock mounts. Only the traction point of the tires are getting lateral/vertical forces.
Shock mount positions - in general the further away you mount the shock from the arm pivot the more compression resistance you will get. Closer, you will get less compression resistance. (think of leverage).
Shock angle? in general this changes the ramp up profile of the shock (will it ramp up more or ramp up less during compression) and it doesn't matter if the compression is from landing or cornering. all the shock feel is its being compressed
These are just general terms, it gets complicated as the angles/forces changes throughout the travel of the suspension. Suspension designers use computer models to help them achieved the outcome they're looking for.
All this.
he explained shock angles as if his truck has solid axles instead of independent suspension.. going off my memory I believe you lose 3% of the shocks vertical stiffness for every degree away from vertical on solid axle mounted shocks. for independent suspension that theory assumes that the shock is straight up and down only when perpendicular to the control arm its mounted on in static position... Therefore as you lean your shocks over further a progressive effect takes place as the suspension compresses because the angle will get closer to parallel as the arm swings when the suspension compressed even with linear springs. so more angle SHOULD (most of the time) in theory improve tire contact over rough surfaces by allowing the suspension to float over bumps but react more stiffly to a sustained load.
7 years late to the party, but yeah... holy crow this vid is SO wrong!
It really seems like this guy had pretty much everything wrong. Less than 90 deg. angle means less force applied to shock; "softer". NOT stiffer. NONE of the force is being applied to the shock from the side, that's why you have control arms.
Excellent Videos, Thank You, we watch them all.
So glad I found your channel. Your content is some of the best RC related stuff out there. ❤️
Thanks! Glad you like the channel.
Awesome videos, thanks so much.
Thank you.
This was very clear in its explanation.
...also very incorrect.
Very nice explanation 👍🏻
Love the Hydra-Drive!
+Gene Hobbs :)
Very usefull information. Thanks for sharing.
Thank u sir .
Im having a custom b6.2 rear tower made that stands up more as my local track is very high speed two big jumps .
As it steps out when i try to put power down .
If you're putting power down on corner exit, then I'd expect some of that as the car is still turning and the lateral component of the apparent suspension stiffness is higher with standup shocks than if they're more laid down. Standup shocks work well on a bumpy surface, but for big jumps, especially with hard landings, laying the shocks down works better as it leads to a more progressive suspension (i.e., the apparent vertical stiffness increases as the shock compresses, because as the arm moves during compression, it's also changing the shock angle).
@@doctormosfet
I stood up my rear shocks on my b74.1 and now it dont step out .
Hopefully it works on the 2wd
Il get back to you next few weeks
Cheers
My brain needs a nap now!!!! 😴🧐
I notice that after adjusting trims going forward is straight but reverse is curved. When I straighten reverse then moving forward curves..how does that happen ? And what's the likely solution?
Amir Abdullah adjust toe out and check for end play in steering linkage.
mount your camera on a tripod. putting it on your head makes a nauseating point of view.
hi, i just assembled a kyosho javelin. I notice after assembley that there is unequal droop in the rear shocks..could u tell me how to adjust the droop please?
Check the length of the shock at full extension. You may have one of the eyelets screwed in more on one shock than the other. Also look at the arms without the shocks connected. Do they droop the same? If not, then the shocks aren't the problem.
doctormosfet I checked the shocks at full extension a few timesit's the same. Arms dropped down without shocks also same length. But maybe I screwed one of the shocks too tight. I'll take it for a test again.
Thanks Doc!!!!
jokes on you im going to like it
Mitigate you mean?... not modulate?
Where can I find videos on oval racing and not dirt oval?
Well I don't have a specific source for that. I would just search around youtube until I find something.
losi hydra drive :)
Hey can you please make a video about toe
It's on the list ;) Just gotta make time.
I'm selling my rare rc10 a/b stamp on eBay!
Bs. Geometry will never change your wrong
This is not really "correct" my dude... If anyone wants to learn how this stuff really works, look up a vid on here called "how to determine your shock absorber mounting points", by doug bug. He explains all of the effects of this very well (and explains what's actually going on)...
I made a Part 2 video a while back to rectify what I got wrong in this video...