As a person who uses balanced training, and is always looking for better ways to train, I think this was a well presented position and you make some very good points. I am doing home schools the dog now, and 100% agree that positive reinforcement training helps build a very good relationship with your dog. But I still see some situations where appropriate corrections can help dogs and their owners. I would like your thoughts on the situation my Aussie was in. when we adopted him he Highly reactive with a long bite history. Two (not very good) force free trainers had recommended to his previous owners that he should be euthanized because he was too reactive. We adopted him, and by learning the dog, tons of counter conditioning / desensitization, environmental controls with few mild prong collar corrections we made very rapid progress. Rewarding good behavior, setting up situations to avoid failure, and mild corrections (maybe 5% early on) he completely changed very quickly and we pivoted to basically 100% reward based training. I still see it as a balance and situational and getting him out of that mindset (without over the top crap like we see from some on CZcams) helped save his life.
I would be very interested to watch the both of you give live feedback/ offer different approaches on training videos you find on the internet. You are both so creative and experienced. I would actually pay to watch that type of content.
Thank you for sharing this. Please bear with me here. First, it is interesting to talk to parents who have chosen home schooling/private schooling/public schooling. Each path has merits that the Chooser cherishes. What the Chooser will often deny or belittle are the downsides of their path. Whatever path we choose, we need to work particularly hard to be able to see where our choice is problematic. The second is that it helps (a ton!) to visualize oneself as a sea captain. We have a destination, but we need to adapt our sails and rudder, minute by minute, day by day to reach our destination. Modern busy lives are more likely to be planned to the minute and not have good flexibility. When our puppy eagerly sticks his nose into the clean laundry, I have to work to see that as a signal that his state of arousal is Ready-to-Train. It’s easier to label him a pest and hold to the schedule that training is at X hour. Abandoning laundry folding I can manage ; ) but other “interruptions” are harder. Learning to see HIS mindset has been very valuable. Third, my family is in the Recallers program now and I am deeply grateful for the abundant training advice - but, wow, was it a rough start. It seemed that every activity was geared for a physically fit adult who had access to two hands and could feed a dog a wide variety of treats. I have a major disability and our puppy had severe colitis. Trying to do the exercises on my knees with some “meh” pumpkin cookies made the Recallers path seem impossible. We had to modify, modify, modify. Doors to joys can look locked to outsiders wondering whether to knock or move on. And this is a problem. Trainers/teachers spend 95% of their time working on problems facing 95% of the students. When we or our puppy are a severe outlier, it can be extra challenging to see what will work. In my case we HAVE to have a dog who will come and who will walk nicely. It is imperative for my safety. We know we can get there, but we have got to semi-design our own path to succeed. Which brings me to my last point: “Othering” is a dominance move that means we don’t have to change what we are doing. We can be snide, roll our eyes, sigh deeply and go on our way. How awful when that happens because it means we have come up to a shadowed door and we are content with our predictions of what is on the other side. I am so very, very sorry that internet Grump Pots couldn’t be curious enough to pick up some points from someone so incredibly knowledgeable and successful.
As a Balanced Trainer, I have followed you and Denise Fenzi for YEARS because I LOVE listening to your approaches. I was actually the opposite way around of a rewards based trainer turned balanced. I am so sorry that so many people can't have an open mind about listening to people that have a different approach and valuing it for what it is. Your Podcast with Ivan was fantastic. Many people are too easily triggered these days.
Wow! Another great podcast. I was enrolled in Home School the dog for four months, then joined Recallers two months ago. My rescue dog FINALLY has learned that “search” means you can look for food on the floor. Previously she would wait for me to toss a cookie, but just two days ago the lightbulb came on for her. So keep going, review your mechanics, videotape your sessions and love your dog. ❤
There is so much controversy in dog training and all the different methods used. I have used most of them and I can confidently state that since I started using Susan‘s method, my relationship with all three of my dogs has transformed into something I never thought I could have.💖🐾
You and your compassion inspire me daily to believe what is possible with my pup who so often is overcome by fear. We're working every day to have a better day than the last. Thank you for your inspiration and compassion ❤
I so understand where the writer of the question is coming from. I haven't resorted to other methods but I haven't gotten nearly as much done with my 19 month old dog as I had hoped because there is so so much information to absorb and then to fully understand with clarity and then to teach my dog with clarity that it's overwhelming. I think I'm going to pay a local trainer to spot me as I go thru your lessons (HSTD & Wag Nation member) and as I progress then I will be able to continue on my own.
I knew it was time to move from a more "balanced" training style to Positive Reinforcement when I saw that under stress, my dogs would forget their "training" & "regress." They'd not built up a healthy confidence & I found this upsetting. I also have 3 anxious rescues who can respond with anxiety when frustration isn't even directed towards them. When I began learning how to properly build a foundation by going back to a point where the dog is able to relax & learn & only move forward when they're ready (& how to read those signs), it made sense. As early as I am in my learning, I now see so clearly where so many balance supporters fail. They overface the dogs regularly & try teach to in that state of mind. My excitement & progress with the girls has now transferred to my husband, who is asking to learn & partake in training.
Another Great podcast and was totally paying attention, I know without a doubt I have the Best Mentor and Trainer possible and any training my pups lack is because I was to lazy to do more training and is on me alone. Again another Great podcast ❤️❤️❤️❤️🍪🍪🍪🍪🍪,ps I can't have the cookies till lent ends, gave up chocolate for lent 😊❤❤❤❤
I listened carefully ad gratefully to the entire interview by Ivan. I saw how well you handled yourself despite how stressful the situation became. Thank you for doing the interview because it taught me how to hold my ground gratuitously with trainers like Ivan who can use language to obscure as well as to communicate what is actually happening in their training.
Watching Susan’s videos helped me more quickly understand my local trainer’s advice on reading my dog’s specific moods and my responsive actions … to get to ‘eureka’ moments for effective training.
Fantastic points made here, thank you so much. I also think there is a discussion to be had about how punishment can be reinforcing - for the handler. It’s a touchy subject that not many people want to admit to, but I know when I was using punishment with my animals, it felt *good* to release some of my frustration in the form of a harsh word or a yank on the lead. (Kind of like how it feels good to leave a scathing comment online when you are upset by, say, a guest on a podcast..)
I disagree that good effective trainers take frustration out on their dogs. I do agree punishment can be reinforcing to the trainer just for a dif reason....it reinforces the trainer because it works fast to stop an unwanted behavior.
I use the word no and enough but it is not harsh nor abusive. Fooey is another great causal word I use .Right from the time they come home as puppies they learn what it means. It is not abusive it just word that means don’t do that - as puppies there are lots rewards and more freedom for stopping unwanted behaviour. Our dogs go everywhere with us, pubs, outdoor patios, hiking, skiing, boating, off roading , dog parks everyday and much of it off leash, so the unexpected can happen and I need to know I can stop it immediately. I have 2 Schnauzers and an Aussie puppy now and have had many other breeds over the past 40 years. I have enjoyed great success living and sharing my life with happy well adjusted dogs that can go anywhere. No is as important as yes if done correctly results in dogs and children with good manners that are fun to be with.
@@kellyhayes I you're right in that effective trainers don't take frustration out on their dogs or dogs they're training, but I think, like @Catherine G, that it's a different story for us non-professional dog owners, we don't have the same emotional distance. When my dog has a reactive episode and my blood is boiling and just I want to cry, I don't want to administer any physical correction or punishment for fear of it being too harsh. I've never taken that route just to make that clear, mostly because I believe reinforcement is more efficient, but also because I don't trust myself 100% in the heat of the moment. I have yelled at times, not proud of it though.
Susan I have been following you for years now and have run into issues with other people who think I’m crazy but then turn around and praise how well behaved and balanced my dogs are. Raising a puppy in lockdown your Home School the Dog was a lifeline for me. My dog who is now 3 when she hears your voice on the TV just stops and watches! She has been hearing your voice since she was 12 weeks old LOL. I say to her “is that your Auntie Susan”😂. Then I get a big tail wag cause she knows the fun will start. I say to everyone who is new just hold the course! This is the best method and regarding Susan and her Team there is no equal!
This episode resonated with me so deeply. I had exactly the same question that the questioner had when I was struggling with the dog that I'm currently fostering (Tortoise). I had been following Susan's crate games, home school the dog programs since I got Tortoise. But I found myself at my wits end after 8 weeks of "trying". While I witnessed my dog gaining lots of new behaviors quickly, her reactivity didn't seem to go away no matter what I did. So, I debated between methods and researched balanced training approach to find out how I could have a faster result because it was difficult to see my dog being under stress and I wanted her to find a forever home where she can thrive. I did try balanced method for two days. I must preface by saying that more than anything I knew that I didn't have the "correct" skill and "proper" timing to punish my dog. And I realised that it wasn't the tool that I didn't like. It was absolutely devastating to witness the kind of person who I was becoming. With punishment, it was so easy to blame the dog, it was so easy to lash out on the dog for the things that didn't go the way I expected. I noticed that our relationship is getting ruined, and this already anxious and fearful dog was getting more and more alert and rigid on a walk. Her behavior got prompt and quick for sure. But it was not because she liked to do so, but because she was afraid not to. These days, I live by what Susan says in this episode: "Dogs are doing their best with the education we've given in the envionment we put them in." There are days when I want to blame the dog, to give up the dog, to give up on myself trying to become a better person. But when I joined Recallers, I did it because I consider Susan my personal coach more than my dog trainer. I'm learning every day about myself when dealing with situations with or without my dog around. It's certainly a long journey, but that's what I'm committed to. Becoming a person that I always wanted to be: compassionate, empathetic, thoughtful and fun. And I believe Tortoise and I are getting an inch closer to be that person and a dog every day, bit by bit.
I do appreciate your comments. I’m a newbie but my choosing a positive way was confirmed by the abusive comments from big name trainers who lashed out against criticism.
Susan sorry to hear about the fallout of such a good podcast. It was very nice to see two professionals have a respectful discussion on different methods. But love is love and hate is hate.
I wish I had found you 19 years ago when I was raising my human child 😂😅 I wanted to raise her with positive reinforced and avoid punishment, but man it wasn't easy to do. I am trying to raise my pup with positive reinforcement and am in HSTD. Right now I am still a balanced trainer. I can't stop myself from using corrective words, "no" and "ah ah", or sometimes grabbing the collar and pulling him back. I've been a balanced parent for so long, old habits die hard, but I'm trying.
I saw the podcast that you were referring to. I thought it was a wonderful conversation between two highly accomplished trainers, with different outlooks. I am truly sorry that you were disrespected in the comments. I typically don’t read comments, I try to concentrated on the information presented in the podcast or video.
@@RaptorsGirl Im so glad!! I wanted to be sure you knew there absolutely are balanced trainers who love & support you & who truly appreciated your being there. I believe you doing Ivan's podcast will result in more people (esp those doing bitesports) ultimately getting better at R+ & being kinder to their dogs!! HUGE win :)
That podcast was awhile ago but I think despite the few A-holes that were making nasty comments it was well worth doing and you exposed a wider audience to what your methods consist of. I hope you and Ivan will do some more collaborations. If you visit each other and train together I'd love to see video footage of it!
I needed this today. I've been doing HSTD with my very anxious pretty reactive rescue but due to really bad illness we did nothing with it for over a week and he didn't get his now usual two big daily walks for a week as I was just too sick and don't have help/live alone. We just went back out today and a combination of no reinforcing him using his listening ears for a week and the excitement of being in the park he went hog wild! Runners and cyclists are his nemesis and usually, at this point, I can manage him past them off leash. Not today. He also totally forgot he actually has excellent recall because the field smelled too good. I was frustrated. He had to go on lead and he then felt my frustration and his natural higher anxiety being on lead. All this to say, I needed the reminder that you can't expect results from the work you didn't do. We are not at ground zero but we need dust ourselves off and reestablish some groundwork. There may be a day we can have a week off without consequences but it's too early to expect that from him now. On a happier note, I did have a word with myself and did a little training this evening and he got his sparkle back, he thoroughly enjoys fun happy interactive learning even if he's still struggling with the outside world a bit.
Love your happy note! We're really sorry to read about your illness and hope it gets better. Please, give yourself grace as you're also doing the best you can ❤
Loved this discussion, Susan! I am about one hour in on the guest podcast you referenced. Loved the Buzzy sequence -- I could relate in that my dog is a Ball Fanatic: mouths it and chases it till she nearly drops (even at age 13 yo). BUT the Bring Me program gave her a flawless, enthusiastic retrieve, no mouthing, coming to me as fast as possible, holding till cued to release. Bright eyed, prancing, tail flag flying. Bring Me is now AS VALUABLE TO HER as her beloved "ball free for all." She's delighted to do either one and we play both. I'm not sure your host totally understood that. Also, I wanted to say -- life is full of aversives that we often cannot control for our dogs (eg. an unpleasant but necessary vet procedure, surprise "attack" from another dog while walking, etc.). Why not respond to, and train for, the ones we can, with reinforcement? Why not help them have the best most beautiful life with you? A dozen fresh baked vegan chocolate chip cookies coming your way! Love that you are addressing this issue positively and head on. 🍪🍪🍪🍪🍪🍪🍪🍪🍪🍪🍪🍪
I was teaching my dog obedience commands until I noticed that his worst problem was reactivity, so I stopped training that and started on reactivity… sometimes he gets on my nerves because I want him to sit but he won’t listen or he won’t stay for long in a sit position but I know it’s not his fault… the best I can do is have an off day where I just play with him instead (I basically train him every single day but I get quite tired of it sometimes and I guess he does too)
Thanks Susan, brilliant! As always. I've recently qualified as a dog/human coach (when I've recovered from spinal surgery, I'll be doing it again), I refer my teams to your Podcast #33 from 2 yrs ago (amazing). I think this is my favourite podcast. I've literally listened to it many times (and the play list recommended). I know it's on a different topic but, in my opinion, it brings so much clarity. Are you 'present' in raising your dog? Do you 'really' know them...lkes and dislike? Training is 24/7...but most of the time you're not wearing a treat bag and in your 'teaching den'? What are they finding reinforcing in the environment that you're 'not aware of'.
The flaw with humans is we typically lack patience, and easily succumb to frustration and our own expectations of how things are supposed to be. We project our disappointment onto others. Taking a positive reinforcement approach without corrections means you need to put aside your expectations, to self reflect, to have patience, and understanding for your learner. I remember being a kid, I remember how others made me feel. You either build someone up, or you tear them down. When I had kids, I wanted to be better than what I knew. I had to seek out and learn patience. I had to seek out and learn alternative approaches. I had to learn to put my frustration, anger, and expectations in check. The innocent, unknowing being you are putting those things on will feel that and remember that. I found and went the positive reinforcement route because that’s where my heart already was, because I know how it feels to be on the receiving end of those who didn’t know any better themselves. Thank you Susan for all your super valuable resources. I have come further in the year (less) that I’ve been listening to your podcast (listened to more than half now!) than I have come in almost 14 years of parenting. ❤
Behavior analytic research has basically thrown out punishment due to it overall lack of efficacy. Punishment can only work if it is 1. Instantaneous and 2. Severe enough. That is not really how people should use training (or living) with animals OR people.
BINGO... Behavior is a result of reinforcement. Every day the mailman comes on the porch and our German Shepherd barks his head off and the mailman leaves the porch. He wins every day. As the behavior is getting worse, I need to figure this one out. His feet are starting to come off the ground. I don't want him jumping and scratching too.
My pup is wonderful and loves learning but nothing I do seems to be more pleasurable than chasing goats. He is ok in the house with the cat. Ok outside with the chickens. Fine with deer and rabbits and squirrels and seagulls at the beach! But those goats are simply irresistible. So I put him back on the leash, take away his freedom when we’re with the goats. Isn’t that punishment? So I guess I am not smart enough to train him without punishment. Leave it and treats and something more fun like tug works also letting him calmly observe works but not with my goats. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Are they young goats? I have been told that putting a dog in a pen with a ram makes them decide to keep away from sheep for life. Maybe you could consider getting a big billy goat even on loan.
While you can look at being confined to a leash around the goats as punishment, it’s really more management. That freedom is a privilege to be earned, and for safety reasons. I’m no trainer and no answers for the goat problem. Maybe a further distance from them that they are not reacting? That they can ignore them? If the goats are the reinforcement, I’m not sure how you’d incorporate that as you can’t just say “go see the goats” if the goats would be hurt or traumatized.
@@freewheelinfranklyn thank you. Maybe. I have horned goats all does, who could probably hurt the dog and he could hurt them. He’s GSD cross so his herding instinct seems to be strongest around them. He does want to chase other animals but controls himself. Only 10 month old dog and the weird thing is I take the dog for a walk with the goats following behind us each day and he’s fine. As soon as the goats go in front or run a bit, he’s trying to chase. Loses the control. I will keep exposing him and hope he gets bored but thought maybe someone has a trick to help me train properly? Maybe it’s the buck goat 😉
Hi. I want to train a diabetic service dog!! While I know that is a lot my problem is bigger, I use a walk and do not get up and down easily. I want to get a Papillon and chi mix. Again an odd mix but I need a small easy to lift dog. Is this possible? I do not know which side to use. I have trained dogs but never with a walker. Should I just cancel that idea? Thanks Marianne
Hi Marianne, I’m using a walker and training our Golden Retriever puppy. Susan’s podcast #53 on Leash pulling has been helpful. We took about 3 weeks just to get our guy into putting his nose into the Gently Leader nose loop. Then another two weeks (with tons and tons of cookies) to get the Gentle Leader snapped into place. Now we are doing slow walks of about 8 feet with me rapid feeding cookies from off my walker to our dog in the side seam Reinforcement Zone. It has been glacial but we are getting there!
Sigh. And still it goes on with the divisive chatter when all the vast majority of ppl just want their dogs to live with them harmoniously and not bring shite down on their owners head by acting out in a negative way. Can methods be mixed? Of course they can, as logically as that there are differing treatment options for physical conditions and the patient is entitled to a choice. Ppl need to step back and approach the processes from a holistic pov instead of this ever so subtle victim blaming of ppl for behaviours a dog expresses. Life is not black / white ... it is all colours of the rainbow. Laying an emotional guilt trip on ppl who are trying their best both for their dog and their families is not the way to mend the bridges.
You continue to use the word punish inappropriately. I'm confident you understand the 4 quadrants of operant conditioning so should appropriately reference negative reinforcement correctly. That is the training you are opposed to. Nobody trains a behavior through punishment as that's not how operant conditioning works. Punishment extinguishes a behavior while reinforcement encourages a behavior.
I have worked with rescue dogs that have been punished by previous owners over and over. They have been shot, tortured, beaten, injured and corrected in all different horrific ways. I can only attest that punishment doesn’t work otherwise these dogs would’ve excelled at what their owners wanted and not ended up with me. I’ve rescued for over 38 years: punishment, corrections do NOT WORK. SUSAN Garrett works no matter what people say. If her program doesn’t work for you it’s because you’re not capable of following her method. Get your electric collar out, put it on your own neck and shock yourself and see if you’ll become a better trainer after several rounds of electric shock 😮 Kindness is the key!!!
I am part of wag the nation and home school the dog and love her training methods but I retain my right to think for myself and incorporate other trainers methods as well. Those horrible things that are done to dogs is not what we are talking about. No balanced trainer would condone that either. There is a massive difference between abuse and a correction. My biggest aversive is the word no or fooey which I also used when raising my children. My dogs are a happy and well adjusted part of our family and we take them everywhere. I don’t have to crate them or pen because they have learned house manners. My puppies are usually house trained by 3 months and sleeping on our bed. In 40 years I have never had a dog have an accident on our bed or cause destruction in our home or anywhere else.
Punishment works. No one who understands learning theory is disputing that it works. Punishment stops/lessons behavior by it's very definition, or it's not punishment. Punishment can be as benign as a sigh or a look of disappointment to soft sensitive dogs. What one dog finds R+ another finds +P case in point smacking a dog's sides like a drum is reinforcement to some dogs (esp playing tug!) but a harsh punishment to others. We all must remember that the learner, NOT the teacher, gets to decide what is rewarding (reinforcing) or is aversive (punishing).
Check out our playlist for Reinforcement, Permissions and Transfer of Value in Dog Training -
czcams.com/play/PLphRRSxcMHy1IUj_4P54q2PIuLNtnXjFO.html
As a person who uses balanced training, and is always looking for better ways to train, I think this was a well presented position and you make some very good points. I am doing home schools the dog now, and 100% agree that positive reinforcement training helps build a very good relationship with your dog. But I still see some situations where appropriate corrections can help dogs and their owners.
I would like your thoughts on the situation my Aussie was in. when we adopted him he Highly reactive with a long bite history. Two (not very good) force free trainers had recommended to his previous owners that he should be euthanized because he was too reactive.
We adopted him, and by learning the dog, tons of counter conditioning / desensitization, environmental controls with few mild prong collar corrections we made very rapid progress. Rewarding good behavior, setting up situations to avoid failure, and mild corrections (maybe 5% early on) he completely changed very quickly and we pivoted to basically 100% reward based training.
I still see it as a balance and situational and getting him out of that mindset (without over the top crap like we see from some on CZcams) helped save his life.
Yes, training with clarity and kindness
Susan! I hadn’t heard of you till Ivan’s podcast. You’re awesome!
Thank you, Gustavo! It's great to have you in our community.
I would be very interested to watch the both of you give live feedback/ offer different approaches on training videos you find on the internet. You are both so creative and experienced.
I would actually pay to watch that type of content.
Another quote from the great Bob Bailey that fits with this episode is, “Don’t blame the method, blame the execution of it.”
Thank you for sharing this. Please bear with me here.
First, it is interesting to talk to parents who have chosen home schooling/private schooling/public schooling. Each path has merits that the Chooser cherishes. What the Chooser will often deny or belittle are the downsides of their path. Whatever path we choose, we need to work particularly hard to be able to see where our choice is problematic.
The second is that it helps (a ton!) to visualize oneself as a sea captain. We have a destination, but we need to adapt our sails and rudder, minute by minute, day by day to reach our destination. Modern busy lives are more likely to be planned to the minute and not have good flexibility. When our puppy eagerly sticks his nose into the clean laundry, I have to work to see that as a signal that his state of arousal is Ready-to-Train. It’s easier to label him a pest and hold to the schedule that training is at X hour. Abandoning laundry folding I can manage ; ) but other “interruptions” are harder. Learning to see HIS mindset has been very valuable.
Third, my family is in the Recallers program now and I am deeply grateful for the abundant training advice - but, wow, was it a rough start. It seemed that every activity was geared for a physically fit adult who had access to two hands and could feed a dog a wide variety of treats. I have a major disability and our puppy had severe colitis. Trying to do the exercises on my knees with some “meh” pumpkin cookies made the Recallers path seem impossible. We had to modify, modify, modify. Doors to joys can look locked to outsiders wondering whether to knock or move on.
And this is a problem. Trainers/teachers spend 95% of their time working on problems facing 95% of the students. When we or our puppy are a severe outlier, it can be extra challenging to see what will work. In my case we HAVE to have a dog who will come and who will walk nicely. It is imperative for my safety. We know we can get there, but we have got to semi-design our own path to succeed.
Which brings me to my last point: “Othering” is a dominance move that means we don’t have to change what we are doing. We can be snide, roll our eyes, sigh deeply and go on our way. How awful when that happens because it means we have come up to a shadowed door and we are content with our predictions of what is on the other side. I am so very, very sorry that internet Grump Pots couldn’t be curious enough to pick up some points from someone so incredibly knowledgeable and successful.
As a Balanced Trainer, I have followed you and Denise Fenzi for YEARS because I LOVE listening to your approaches. I was actually the opposite way around of a rewards based trainer turned balanced. I am so sorry that so many people can't have an open mind about listening to people that have a different approach and valuing it for what it is. Your Podcast with Ivan was fantastic. Many people are too easily triggered these days.
So very Grateful to have found Susan and joined her Programs. Life is so much better ❤🐾
Wow! Another great podcast. I was enrolled in Home School the dog for four months, then joined Recallers two months ago. My rescue dog FINALLY has learned that “search” means you can look for food on the floor. Previously she would wait for me to toss a cookie, but just two days ago the lightbulb came on for her. So keep going, review your mechanics, videotape your sessions and love your dog. ❤
Fabulous.....Ms Susan another gem of a podcast you are the best mentor one could ever want.
Thank you Johnny! We're so grateful to have you in our wonderful community.
There is so much controversy in dog training and all the different methods used. I have used most of them and I can confidently state that since I started using Susan‘s method, my relationship with all three of my dogs has transformed into something I never thought I could have.💖🐾
So beautiful Milena
You and your compassion inspire me daily to believe what is possible with my pup who so often is overcome by fear. We're working every day to have a better day than the last. Thank you for your inspiration and compassion ❤
You are so kind, Carlina. Thank you for being part of this wonderful community and for caring so much for your pup ❤
I so understand where the writer of the question is coming from. I haven't resorted to other methods but I haven't gotten nearly as much done with my 19 month old dog as I had hoped because there is so so much information to absorb and then to fully understand with clarity and then to teach my dog with clarity that it's overwhelming. I think I'm going to pay a local trainer to spot me as I go thru your lessons (HSTD & Wag Nation member) and as I progress then I will be able to continue on my own.
I knew it was time to move from a more "balanced" training style to Positive Reinforcement when I saw that under stress, my dogs would forget their "training" & "regress." They'd not built up a healthy confidence & I found this upsetting. I also have 3 anxious rescues who can respond with anxiety when frustration isn't even directed towards them.
When I began learning how to properly build a foundation by going back to a point where the dog is able to relax & learn & only move forward when they're ready (& how to read those signs), it made sense.
As early as I am in my learning, I now see so clearly where so many balance supporters fail. They overface the dogs regularly & try teach to in that state of mind.
My excitement & progress with the girls has now transferred to my husband, who is asking to learn & partake in training.
Another Great podcast and was totally paying attention, I know without a doubt I have the Best Mentor and Trainer possible and any training my pups lack is because I was to lazy to do more training and is on me alone. Again another Great podcast ❤️❤️❤️❤️🍪🍪🍪🍪🍪,ps I can't have the cookies till lent ends, gave up chocolate for lent 😊❤❤❤❤
I listened carefully ad gratefully to the entire interview by Ivan. I saw how well you handled yourself despite how stressful the situation became. Thank you for doing the interview because it taught me how to hold my ground gratuitously with trainers like Ivan who can use language to obscure as well as to communicate what is actually happening in their training.
Watching Susan’s videos helped me more quickly understand my local trainer’s advice on reading my dog’s specific moods and my responsive actions … to get to ‘eureka’ moments for effective training.
Fantastic points made here, thank you so much.
I also think there is a discussion to be had about how punishment can be reinforcing - for the handler.
It’s a touchy subject that not many people want to admit to, but I know when I was using punishment with my animals, it felt *good* to release some of my frustration in the form of a harsh word or a yank on the lead. (Kind of like how it feels good to leave a scathing comment online when you are upset by, say, a guest on a podcast..)
Agreed Catherine! 👌
I disagree that good effective trainers take frustration out on their dogs. I do agree punishment can be reinforcing to the trainer just for a dif reason....it reinforces the trainer because it works fast to stop an unwanted behavior.
I use the word no and enough but it is not harsh nor abusive. Fooey is another great causal word I use .Right from the time they come home as puppies they learn what it means. It is not abusive it just word that means don’t do that - as puppies there are lots rewards and more freedom for stopping unwanted behaviour. Our dogs go everywhere with us, pubs, outdoor patios, hiking, skiing, boating, off roading , dog parks everyday and much of it off leash, so the unexpected can happen and I need to know I can stop it immediately. I have 2 Schnauzers and an Aussie puppy now and have had many other breeds over the past 40 years. I have enjoyed great success living and sharing my life with happy well adjusted dogs that can go anywhere. No is as important as yes if done correctly results in dogs and children with good manners that are fun to be with.
@@kellyhayes it can also be a benefit to a dog that gets more freedom quicker and is not always in training mode
@@kellyhayes I you're right in that effective trainers don't take frustration out on their dogs or dogs they're training, but I think, like @Catherine G, that it's a different story for us non-professional dog owners, we don't have the same emotional distance. When my dog has a reactive episode and my blood is boiling and just I want to cry, I don't want to administer any physical correction or punishment for fear of it being too harsh. I've never taken that route just to make that clear, mostly because I believe reinforcement is more efficient, but also because I don't trust myself 100% in the heat of the moment. I have yelled at times, not proud of it though.
Susan I have been following you for years now and have run into issues with other people who think I’m crazy but then turn around and praise how well behaved and balanced my dogs are. Raising a puppy in lockdown your Home School the Dog was a lifeline for me. My dog who is now 3 when she hears your voice on the TV just stops and watches! She has been hearing your voice since she was 12 weeks old LOL. I say to her “is that your Auntie Susan”😂. Then I get a big tail wag cause she knows the fun will start. I say to everyone who is new just hold the course! This is the best method and regarding Susan and her Team there is no equal!
Thank you Susan for sharing all your knowledge. This is so incredibly helpful and I really connect with what you're saying!
Thank you, Rebecca! We're grateful to have you in our community 💕
This episode resonated with me so deeply. I had exactly the same question that the questioner had when I was struggling with the dog that I'm currently fostering (Tortoise). I had been following Susan's crate games, home school the dog programs since I got Tortoise. But I found myself at my wits end after 8 weeks of "trying". While I witnessed my dog gaining lots of new behaviors quickly, her reactivity didn't seem to go away no matter what I did. So, I debated between methods and researched balanced training approach to find out how I could have a faster result because it was difficult to see my dog being under stress and I wanted her to find a forever home where she can thrive. I did try balanced method for two days. I must preface by saying that more than anything I knew that I didn't have the "correct" skill and "proper" timing to punish my dog. And I realised that it wasn't the tool that I didn't like. It was absolutely devastating to witness the kind of person who I was becoming. With punishment, it was so easy to blame the dog, it was so easy to lash out on the dog for the things that didn't go the way I expected. I noticed that our relationship is getting ruined, and this already anxious and fearful dog was getting more and more alert and rigid on a walk. Her behavior got prompt and quick for sure. But it was not because she liked to do so, but because she was afraid not to. These days, I live by what Susan says in this episode: "Dogs are doing their best with the education we've given in the envionment we put them in." There are days when I want to blame the dog, to give up the dog, to give up on myself trying to become a better person. But when I joined Recallers, I did it because I consider Susan my personal coach more than my dog trainer. I'm learning every day about myself when dealing with situations with or without my dog around. It's certainly a long journey, but that's what I'm committed to. Becoming a person that I always wanted to be: compassionate, empathetic, thoughtful and fun. And I believe Tortoise and I are getting an inch closer to be that person and a dog every day, bit by bit.
Thanks so much for this lovely note, you're so awesome! ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️
I do appreciate your comments. I’m a newbie but my choosing a positive way was confirmed by the abusive comments from big name trainers who lashed out against criticism.
Susan sorry to hear about the fallout of such a good podcast. It was very nice to see two professionals have a respectful discussion on different methods. But love is love and hate is hate.
I wish I had found you 19 years ago when I was raising my human child 😂😅 I wanted to raise her with positive reinforced and avoid punishment, but man it wasn't easy to do. I am trying to raise my pup with positive reinforcement and am in HSTD. Right now I am still a balanced trainer. I can't stop myself from using corrective words, "no" and "ah ah", or sometimes grabbing the collar and pulling him back. I've been a balanced parent for so long, old habits die hard, but I'm trying.
You got this! Thanks for sharing, we'll love to hear about your progress with your pup
I saw the podcast that you were referring to. I thought it was a wonderful conversation between two highly accomplished trainers, with different outlooks. I am truly sorry that you were disrespected in the comments. I typically don’t read comments, I try to concentrated on the information presented in the podcast or video.
I also saw a ton of VERY supportive comments from balanced trainers who also follow many fabulous R+ trainers ❤
Yes Kelly, as did I, which is why I wanted to point that out as well in today’s episode.
@@RaptorsGirl Im so glad!! I wanted to be sure you knew there absolutely are balanced trainers who love & support you & who truly appreciated your being there. I believe you doing Ivan's podcast will result in more people (esp those doing bitesports) ultimately getting better at R+ & being kinder to their dogs!! HUGE win :)
That podcast was awhile ago but I think despite the few A-holes that were making nasty comments it was well worth doing and you exposed a wider audience to what your methods consist of. I hope you and Ivan will do some more collaborations. If you visit each other and train together I'd love to see video footage of it!
This is such an enlightening podcast! "All consequences are there as a result of reinforcement."
I needed this today. I've been doing HSTD with my very anxious pretty reactive rescue but due to really bad illness we did nothing with it for over a week and he didn't get his now usual two big daily walks for a week as I was just too sick and don't have help/live alone. We just went back out today and a combination of no reinforcing him using his listening ears for a week and the excitement of being in the park he went hog wild! Runners and cyclists are his nemesis and usually, at this point, I can manage him past them off leash. Not today. He also totally forgot he actually has excellent recall because the field smelled too good. I was frustrated. He had to go on lead and he then felt my frustration and his natural higher anxiety being on lead.
All this to say, I needed the reminder that you can't expect results from the work you didn't do. We are not at ground zero but we need dust ourselves off and reestablish some groundwork. There may be a day we can have a week off without consequences but it's too early to expect that from him now.
On a happier note, I did have a word with myself and did a little training this evening and he got his sparkle back, he thoroughly enjoys fun happy interactive learning even if he's still struggling with the outside world a bit.
Love your happy note! We're really sorry to read about your illness and hope it gets better. Please, give yourself grace as you're also doing the best you can ❤
Loved this discussion, Susan! I am about one hour in on the guest podcast you referenced. Loved the Buzzy sequence -- I could relate in that my dog is a Ball Fanatic: mouths it and chases it till she nearly drops (even at age 13 yo). BUT the Bring Me program gave her a flawless, enthusiastic retrieve, no mouthing, coming to me as fast as possible, holding till cued to release. Bright eyed, prancing, tail flag flying. Bring Me is now AS VALUABLE TO HER as her beloved "ball free for all." She's delighted to do either one and we play both. I'm not sure your host totally understood that. Also, I wanted to say -- life is full of aversives that we often cannot control for our dogs (eg. an unpleasant but necessary vet procedure, surprise "attack" from another dog while walking, etc.). Why not respond to, and train for, the ones we can, with reinforcement? Why not help them have the best most beautiful life with you? A dozen fresh baked vegan chocolate chip cookies coming your way! Love that you are addressing this issue positively and head on. 🍪🍪🍪🍪🍪🍪🍪🍪🍪🍪🍪🍪
I was teaching my dog obedience commands until I noticed that his worst problem was reactivity, so I stopped training that and started on reactivity… sometimes he gets on my nerves because I want him to sit but he won’t listen or he won’t stay for long in a sit position but I know it’s not his fault… the best I can do is have an off day where I just play with him instead (I basically train him every single day but I get quite tired of it sometimes and I guess he does too)
Great episode 💕
Thanks Susan, brilliant! As always. I've recently qualified as a dog/human coach (when I've recovered from spinal surgery, I'll be doing it again), I refer my teams to your Podcast #33 from 2 yrs ago (amazing). I think this is my favourite podcast. I've literally listened to it many times (and the play list recommended). I know it's on a different topic but, in my opinion, it brings so much clarity. Are you 'present' in raising your dog? Do you 'really' know them...lkes and dislike? Training is 24/7...but most of the time you're not wearing a treat bag and in your 'teaching den'? What are they finding reinforcing in the environment that you're 'not aware of'.
Thank you, Marie! Congratulations on your qualification, hope you're recovered and enjoying coaching again very soon ❤
I couldn't have said it better 😃
The flaw with humans is we typically lack patience, and easily succumb to frustration and our own expectations of how things are supposed to be. We project our disappointment onto others.
Taking a positive reinforcement approach without corrections means you need to put aside your expectations, to self reflect, to have patience, and understanding for your learner.
I remember being a kid, I remember how others made me feel. You either build someone up, or you tear them down.
When I had kids, I wanted to be better than what I knew. I had to seek out and learn patience. I had to seek out and learn alternative approaches. I had to learn to put my frustration, anger, and expectations in check. The innocent, unknowing being you are putting those things on will feel that and remember that.
I found and went the positive reinforcement route because that’s where my heart already was, because I know how it feels to be on the receiving end of those who didn’t know any better themselves.
Thank you Susan for all your super valuable resources. I have come further in the year (less) that I’ve been listening to your podcast (listened to more than half now!) than I have come in almost 14 years of parenting. ❤
Ps- You may be able to mess up a reinforcement, but the damage it causes is far different than the damage done by messing up a correction.
Such a beautiful and thought provoking reply for all. Thank you for sharing your insight.
Behavior analytic research has basically thrown out punishment due to it overall lack of efficacy. Punishment can only work if it is 1. Instantaneous and 2. Severe enough. That is not really how people should use training (or living) with animals OR people.
Hi Susan, thank you for your insight and knowledge.
Can you share the podcast that you were a guest on?
BINGO... Behavior is a result of reinforcement. Every day the mailman comes on the porch and our German Shepherd barks his head off and the mailman leaves the porch. He wins every day. As the behavior is getting worse, I need to figure this one out. His feet are starting to come off the ground. I don't want him jumping and scratching too.
The diference is that I don’t use verbal corrections or physical corrections
I think you meant abuse.
My pup is wonderful and loves learning but nothing I do seems to be more pleasurable than chasing goats. He is ok in the house with the cat. Ok outside with the chickens. Fine with deer and rabbits and squirrels and seagulls at the beach! But those goats are simply irresistible. So I put him back on the leash, take away his freedom when we’re with the goats. Isn’t that punishment? So I guess I am not smart enough to train him without punishment. Leave it and treats and something more fun like tug works also letting him calmly observe works but not with my goats. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Are they young goats? I have been told that putting a dog in a pen with a ram makes them decide to keep away from sheep for life. Maybe you could consider getting a big billy goat even on loan.
While you can look at being confined to a leash around the goats as punishment, it’s really more management. That freedom is a privilege to be earned, and for safety reasons.
I’m no trainer and no answers for the goat problem. Maybe a further distance from them that they are not reacting? That they can ignore them? If the goats are the reinforcement, I’m not sure how you’d incorporate that as you can’t just say “go see the goats” if the goats would be hurt or traumatized.
@@freewheelinfranklyn thank you. Maybe. I have horned goats all does, who could probably hurt the dog and he could hurt them. He’s GSD cross so his herding instinct seems to be strongest around them. He does want to chase other animals but controls himself. Only 10 month old dog and the weird thing is I take the dog for a walk with the goats following behind us each day and he’s fine. As soon as the goats go in front or run a bit, he’s trying to chase. Loses the control. I will keep exposing him and hope he gets bored but thought maybe someone has a trick to help me train properly? Maybe it’s the buck goat 😉
Hi Dani, Susan did a podcast on this specific topic a while back, here it is for you: czcams.com/video/Z9hXKLCK0Cg/video.html
Hi. I want to train a diabetic service dog!! While I know that is a lot my problem is bigger, I use a walk and do not get up and down easily. I want to get a Papillon and chi mix. Again an odd mix but I need a small easy to lift dog. Is this possible? I do not know which side to use. I have trained dogs but never with a walker. Should I just cancel that idea? Thanks Marianne
Hi Marianne, I’m using a walker and training our Golden Retriever puppy. Susan’s podcast #53 on Leash pulling has been helpful. We took about 3 weeks just to get our guy into putting his nose into the Gently Leader nose loop. Then another two weeks (with tons and tons of cookies) to get the Gentle Leader snapped into place. Now we are doing slow walks of about 8 feet with me rapid feeding cookies from off my walker to our dog in the side seam Reinforcement Zone. It has been glacial but we are getting there!
Sigh. And still it goes on with the divisive chatter when all the vast majority of ppl just want their dogs to live with them harmoniously and not bring shite down on their owners head by acting out in a negative way.
Can methods be mixed? Of course they can, as logically as that there are differing treatment options for physical conditions and the patient is entitled to a choice.
Ppl need to step back and approach the processes from a holistic pov instead of this ever so subtle victim blaming of ppl for behaviours a dog expresses.
Life is not black / white ... it is all colours of the rainbow. Laying an emotional guilt trip on ppl who are trying their best both for their dog and their families is not the way to mend the bridges.
I do not believe the any method statement
You continue to use the word punish inappropriately. I'm confident you understand the 4 quadrants of operant conditioning so should appropriately reference negative reinforcement correctly. That is the training you are opposed to. Nobody trains a behavior through punishment as that's not how operant conditioning works. Punishment extinguishes a behavior while reinforcement encourages a behavior.
You'll get shut out here. Question not.
I have worked with rescue dogs that have been punished by previous owners over and over. They have been shot, tortured, beaten, injured and corrected in all different horrific ways. I can only attest that punishment doesn’t work otherwise these dogs would’ve excelled at what their owners wanted and not ended up with me. I’ve rescued for over 38 years: punishment, corrections do NOT WORK. SUSAN Garrett works no matter what people say. If her program doesn’t work for you it’s because you’re not capable of following her method. Get your electric collar out, put it on your own neck and shock yourself and see if you’ll become a better trainer after several rounds of electric shock 😮
Kindness is the key!!!
I am part of wag the nation and home school the dog and love her training methods but I retain my right to think for myself and incorporate other trainers methods as well. Those horrible things that are done to dogs is not what we are talking about. No balanced trainer would condone that either. There is a massive difference between abuse and a correction. My biggest aversive is the word no or fooey which I also used when raising my children. My dogs are a happy and well adjusted part of our family and we take them everywhere. I don’t have to crate them or pen because they have learned house manners. My puppies are usually house trained by 3 months and sleeping on our bed. In 40 years I have never had a dog have an accident on our bed or cause destruction in our home or anywhere else.
Punishment works. No one who understands learning theory is disputing that it works. Punishment stops/lessons behavior by it's very definition, or it's not punishment. Punishment can be as benign as a sigh or a look of disappointment to soft sensitive dogs. What one dog finds R+ another finds +P case in point smacking a dog's sides like a drum is reinforcement to some dogs (esp playing tug!) but a harsh punishment to others. We all must remember that the learner, NOT the teacher, gets to decide what is rewarding (reinforcing) or is aversive (punishing).