Aluminum vs. copper brake pads - which are better?
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- čas přidán 28. 10. 2022
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In this episode we test some rather unconventional brake pad material.
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I suggest redoing the test after either replacing or milling the surfaces of those copper pads then re-turning the rotors to clean them properly, since the copper pads appear to be contaminated by residue aluminium from the aluminium test and gave you poor results
I'm glad I read this reply: I was about to make the same comment about the copper pads looking like they rubbed residual aluminum out of the rotors.
I would radher see it on an abs vehicle
they are
not doing
real
tests
they spend
a lot of
time to
make these
videos
'proper' tests
would include
monitors hooked
up to measure
temperatures
and wear
and braking
distances
your idea
would add
nothing to
the way they
do their
tests
@@heyitMeMcFlyunfortunately So, yeah it doesn't have to be scientific but shouldn't be stupid poor either.
@@heyitMeMcFlyunfortunately
ok
thank you
for your
kind words
dear friend
Try the aluminum pads with a car that has ABS. I wonder how well the system would work with pads so sensitive.
what about gold brake pads?🤣🤣🤣
Great thought scott
You should also try brass pads. That’s what we use on our ATVs because they’re really durable and rocks and mud don’t eat them up like conventional pads do.
That's interesting. Do you make them yourself from blanks of brass or what?
@@eightosaurusspelunk1598 yes. We remove the original pad material and rivet on the brass. They work really good.
Are they noisy? How do they perform?
They perform very good. Not noisy at all. Just like a regular pad but don’t get eaten up like regular pads do in mud/dirt.
The issue it that's cars are alot heavier, so the brakes would probably over heat, fade, and with the being repeated alot the pads would wear down very fast.
Copper work hardens when force is applied and softens when its heated. In this case both were happening repeatedly, so a graph of the results would have been interesting.
am i remembering correctly thay copper gets a h igher coefficent of friction the hotter it gets to a certain point? cinter clutches and racing brakes have copper and stuff like that in em if i remeber correctly, and they all need abuse to work correctly.
The rulers hate us having copper anything today but do love them some planned obsolescence 24-7.
That's why they market thin pads that require replacing often, hello?
I'm not sure if the low copper or zero copper brake pads are really a problem. I used Akebono zero copper brake pads on my mom's 2011 Honda CRV. They even outlasted OEM Honda brake pads, which may have had copper.
Once you brake hard enough to lock up the wheels, your brake pads no longer have any influence on stopping distance and threshold braking (not locking up) gives you better distance than locking wheels while also sparing the very high tire wear.
Threshold braking give shorter stopping distance on tarmac and regular roads. On gravel locking the wheels actually is likely to result in shorter stopping distance. This is because the gravel builds up in front of the locked wheel increasing the friction over what is possible for a rolling wheel. Snow can act the same way while on tarmac, concrete or any other hard surface locked wheels means a longer stopping distance.
But locking the wheels always means you are giving up any pretense to control the direction the car travels in. So ABS or threshold braking if you don't have ABS is almost always preferable even if the stopping distance can get slightly longer on gravel.
Oh and threshold braking is never as good as ABS. Never! Neither in allowing you to retain control or in getting the shortest possible stopping distance. Well retaining control isn't entirely true. Locking the breaks can allow you to perform maneuvers you can't otherwise do. But it takes skills most people don't have and in a panic situation I'd much rather have a vehicle that steer better.
@@blahorgaslisk7763 according to the folks at team o'neil, it still works well on gravel (I'll drop the link at the bottom)
likewise, threshold braking can outperform ABS, but it's more a question of how good your abs is (without even considering loose surfaces)
here's the video btw:
czcams.com/video/TfekZcWa6D8/video.html
All my FWDs get skinny mud tires for snow, It gives me the grip to pull out when the rear whips arround. Stuipid amount of control with those.
@@tiagobelo4965 I counter with Engineering Explained and a video about why it's impossible for a human to outbreak a proper ABS system...
czcams.com/video/G-GEUkiMuLk/video.html
It's not the first time I've come across the idea that threshold braking can be more efficient, but every time it's been either someone's personal opinion or proven wrong through testing. Eng.Exp however has a very good explanation of the mechanics of why we as humans can't compete.
But just incase... I'm now off to see if Team O'Neil can convince me of anything else and I'll have to come back and eat crow.
May the best sources win!
@@tiagobelo4965 Good video, but not enough to convince me I should disable ABS and use threshold braking instead.
It's my personal opinion that is you regularly rely on ABS when braking in your daily driving you are living on borrowed time. In any situation other than competition the ABS should never need to engage unless something catastrophic is happening.
Whenever you feel ABS working you were either driving to fast or are braking to hard. Like stated in the video from Team O'Neil you have to plan ahead when driving. If you have to rely on ABS to slow down enough to take a curve you are just a few ounces of lose gravel on the road from having a very bad day.
ABS is for the situations you can't predict such as a child running out from behind a parked car, a deer taking a leap up onto the road only to freeze in your headlights. It's for the kind of situations when your brain goes into panic mode, not for helping you drive faster and brake later. And when things like that happens the brains reaction time is still not good enough, so you really don't have time to find that perfect brake pressure that won't lock up your wheels.
I think the copper pads were getting contaminated with aluminium remnants from the discs, would have been a better idea to have separate sets of discs to test so one didn't harm the other...
That would definitely have been the best way to do this, yes!
I agree... I bet high grade brass would be even better ?
They machined the discs before both tests.. So was no contamination
@@ashenthrenchetty7 they didn't. You can clearly see the aluminium on the copper pads.
@@ashenthrenchetty7 they said they will machine the rotors. Clean them. Then put the pads. But all they did in the next shot was clean the rotors. Definitely contamination between the two
I use a copper type sintered brake pad in my dirt bike, they brake well in the wet and mud but they wear the rotors faster than the carbon/kevlar type.
I've seen those, they have a lot of copper in them.
Most brake works good in wet
This really is the most fascinating car channel on CZcams imo, they do the cool stuff other people just can’t do, because their skill level in fabrication is extraordinary
yeah, but you have to be super rich to use copper for brake pads🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@raven4k998 😆 you can order customized copper plates and other pieces and metals online, I ordered a copper plate once a few years back but I can’t recall where. But yeah, copper isn’t cheap, even for a small 1/8 inch thick plate 2x2 inches it was $6 in 2017, online metals, I looked it up 😆
Because the others lack their imagination and creativity!
Really love your channel! You guys do some amazing experiments on cars and it is always fun to watch!
now you know why brake pads aren't made completely out of aluminum now as they have way too much bite for braking
garage 54, always answering the questions no one ever asked
Lol ! Great guys , keep having fun and entertaining us
Your machining skills are always impressive.
As long as you won't ask them to weld anything 🤣
I like this. BBC Top Gear encountered aluminum brake rotors in the "Communist cars" episode. They said aluminum has the braking properties of cheese.
Stay weird, Garage 54. Never stop being weird.
BBC Top Gear is as reliable as a honest politician on campaign...
They were forcd to admit they "staged" (american english is faked) the Reliant Robin rollovers, and the Tesla failures...
If they knew Jack sh*t of cars, this episode wouldn't have existed, as Russia was part of the producers of commie cars.
You guys have noticed the shiny metallic flecks in brake pad material? Copper is one of the metals used in the brake material. The light coloured flecks, could be aluminium, or magnesium.
I'm not sure about modern pads and shoes, but in times gone and past, brake linings were formulated for specific applications, and in particular, according to whether the brakes were servo assisted, non assisted.
Copper has been almost fully eliminated at least in North America, it was causing reproductive issues in salmon. I believe they are limited to 5% copper max, some brands have moved to a fully copper free formula.
@@otm646 that's correct don, so good of you to mention this.
Id like to see the study on that, copper is still in every Horse/Cattle Salt rock, Every vitamin/mineral complex for humans and is an addative for turkeys to relax the arteries, preventing a heart attack from rapid growth.
@@DarkLinkAD I understand, and all i have access to is the internet, so i suggest that you google "copper being removed from brake pads". and while copper is necessary for humans, it is well known as an effective agent used to prevent sea creatures from attacking boats.
@@bgbthabun627 I learned that information before the internet was a publicly available thing, farm work. If you have a study to reference from a reputable source such as PUBMED, ill read it. Im not much for google propaganda though
Great video as always!
Need to make similar comparison with bronze and brass brake pads...
Great, interesting video. Also great editing.
Interesting experiment. 👍
That was a great experiment! You guy’s never seize to amaze me!👌😂👍that was awesome!
Cease
Cease... but yeah, I agree!
@@crowvelle
I think it was intentional.
@@shawbros Man good catch, I completely missed it, thanks. 😂
In my country we use bronze and brass plated clutches and brakes for race car applications
I would love to see you use copper for friction material on a clutch.
Don't forget the aluminum and copper both feel hot BECAUSE they cool off quickly-your hands feel the increased heat that they give off! Brakes just get that hot, even fast conductivity doesn't make it any more bearable to touch after removal.
good testing !
Your are awesome, love your creativity ❗
Greatings from Germany... 🤗
This Chanel always has me pinned to my seat great content as always.
Love these guys
Yes aluminum binds with steel pretty well even when cold, but against the iron rotor it wouldn't take much to get hot enough to melt and bind with the cast iron. brake pads are designed to not grip much so as to last longer and not cause an inconvenience like a crash 😂
Be blessed from Canada"🍁💪🤙✌🏻you guys are brilliant!!
You should try brass, ceramic, rubber (like a piece of a tire), maybe even stainless steel and titanium
Bicycle brake pads are usually rubber. They work very well against aluminium rims but tend to be a lot less effective when wet.
USING MY EXPERIENCE ON USA RAILROADS , I WORKED IN THE TIMES THAT WE CONVERTED MOST ROLLING STOCK FROM CAST IRON BRAKE SHOES ON WHEEL RIMS TO COMPOSITION
BRAKE SHOES!
IT WAS FOUND TO BE NECESSARY TO REDUCE THE PRESSURE.
THIS WAS DONE BY CHANGING BRAKE LEVER RATIO , OR BY USING
SMALLER SIZE BRAKE CYLINDER
SIZES!
OVERALL IT DECREASED THE WEAR ON WHEELS!
THE ONLY LOCOMOTIVES THAT NEVER WERE CONVERTED TO
COMPOSITION SHOES ARE THE STEAM LOCOMOTIVES, BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT ALIKE ON DIFFERENT TYPES, AND TO MY KNOWLEDGE NO ONE MANUFACTURES THEM!
HOWEVER SPECIALIZED METAL FOUNDRIES STILL CAST THEM !
KEEP THEM ROLLING BROTHERS!!
👍👍
Can you do some more tests for "things that can survive a siberian winter"? Would be curious about these types of things.
Love garage 54
Can you try this same setup in a truck, something with a bit more weight to it
11:51 that moment when you see a pothole and hit the brake pedal😂😂
I'd like to see them try Australian bush mechanics replacements made out of redgum wood
what is written on the brake disk at 13:55?
Wonder what would happen if you used a copper aluminum alloy?
What is meant by "derailment" content in the aluminum? Silicon?
You should have done stock pads for comparison. Great video thou!'
wow a real science and engineering! :)
I've used heavy duty pads on one of my cars. Those had copper in them.
That rim and tire just laying down taking a nap
They make brass for side by sides and 4wheelers
im guessing the aluminum was 6061 i wonder what 7075 vs 7050 vs 2024 or maybe even 2219 if you could find any of that
Thank you.
Aluminum pads have a major problem. The freshly exposed surfaces instantly oxidize to form a thin layer alumium oxide aka corundum. This can wear out the disks prematurely.
Yes!
So what do the major brake pad suppliers use on their full metallic pads? I'm sure it is metal but of a powdered construction. I don't know but I would like to see if you could buy your own lining and reline your own pads. In the old days here in the states you could get linings for brake shoes. Sure there would be issues with some jackleg not doing it right but...
Ceramic and carbon mostly, depends really.
Steel, copper, ceramic, kevlar are some common materials, all bound in a carbon compound
It would be interesting to what cast iron brake pads would do on cast iron rotors.
what about gold much cheaper than copper🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Man imagine doing tungsten carbide break pads!!
That would be epic to see
You'd be almost just wearing the rotor instead of almost only wearing the pads as they're supposed to.
Could be interesting, if you could cast/machine tungsten carbide into the correct shape. Easier said than done given it's high melting point and hardness.
@@MrCheesywaffles yeah for sure is almost impossible to melt one of the most retractable metals in existence
Be expensive , if you could get some sintered somewhere . I'd like to see clean rotors against brass , steel , and titanium ( Russia has alot more than we do in the states.).
They would simply wear away the disk but have very little stopping effect.The ideal brake pad material is *soft* with good thermal characteristics.
How about carbon fiber brake pads?
Or carbon fiber rotors?
Carbon fiber pads would do a wonderful job of grinding down your rotors, carbon fiber is usually very abrasive.
As for the rotors themselves, I think a normal carbon fiber composite would suffer failure of the resin due to heat. However carbon fibers are often used as a component of ceramic rotors used in the brakes of high performance cars and aircraft.
These guys are excellent fabricators. Id love to see them build a fleet of lada race cars and race them
Yeah they should make some that include a combination of the best of their ideas over the years, fully tuned and go head to head.
slotted and drilled brake pads now!
TRY making Mechano Wheels (set of 4 wheels allows car to move in any direction or to rotate perfectly)
Buy a lot of those diamond drill bits or diamond disks for cutting floor tiles. Make them into brake pads
Hah! I was just watching the previous video when this popped up
Wonder how brass would do ?
Copper transfers heat better than Aluminum. That is why it is used in high end cookware. You can buy 'semi-metallic' brake pads, but you can't buy 'solid metallic' brakes pads for obvious reasons (don't work very well).
Nice test! 13:01 Anyone happen to know this song?
copper pads do exist . however they are adhered and mixed with carbide so they dont wear fast . they used to use them in race cars
👍You should try brass pads or Nickel pads.
🤘😁
Should try carbon fiber rotors or pads strong and light.
Have you ever tried titanium?
Need to make some aluminum shoes for my bus it sounds like lol
Make an aluminum clutch disc
Notification Squad Have a nice weekend!🔥🔥🔥
I got copper brake pads on my bike....a super bike....on brembos.....really effective
You should also try brake pads made up of tungsten.
titanium and flint?
3:40 bro sounds like an eBay turbo 😂
Maybe try different types of bronze.
Try magnesium brake pads
Would be interesting to try magnesium although quite dangerous…
i wonder how these would work with abs
You mean get a bodybuilder to press the brakes? 😂
Hell yeah
That is a pretty sweet little rat ride you got there! 😁👍
Use whetstones... invent the self-machining rotor ;)
Hah those pads look quite similar to MMC Hyundai Pony ones. *Edit wait you guys have TWO POT calipers? Nice!
now try aluminum bronze brake pads. can you get the best of both by smelting 50/50 aluminum and copper into brake pads?
Can anyone tell me what truck this is? I love the look.
4 door car. Prob a lada
It's a Lada station wagon (VAZ-2104) hacked up into a pick up.
Thank you! I’ll be looking that up now. :)
I want to see this done in a car with ABS
For sure a braking system part for a zombie apocalypse world... :)
It’s great how much the translator sounds like Kermit 😂
Isnt it because they are softer metals?
Tyres with the nails are locking more easily than those without nails. You may consider this.
Next titanium braking pads?
Next, with some brake rotors made of aluminium as well
Copper makes more sense than aluminum just because it's a little harder and I think has a higher melting point. Could only imagine modern abs system with these pads. Before I watched all the way through I was thinking the copper would be a better emergency back up. The way aluminum shears too is much more severe than copper.
the aluminium wasn't melting in order to stick to the steel, it's simply a softer metal and gauled up the surface of the rotor.
try brass , is what us mud guys use on atv , southern Texas so sand eats up normal pads in pits
Mix copper and ceramic and make a hybrid break pads
I predicted the Aluminum Pads would be incredibly slippery, not at all effective at stopping the car, man I was wrong XD
See if you can friction weld with a lada!
I would guess copper. Aluminum is light and more malleable, though copper is pretty malleable too.
The copper and aluminium does not cool fast. That is a Misconception. They both conducht heat very well, and that is why they are used as a cooler (Heatsink). By using finned copper and aluminium blocks with a fan, they can really get things cool, so thats why they "cool things fast".
Theyselves will stay allmost hot the same time as an identically formed block of Iron or Steel.
It doesn't matter what pads you're using, if the tire lock up, stopping distance will be the same.
That's why pads are dynamic, with the appropriate initial bite. In this way minimising the braking distance, and avoiding the locking. Anyway, ABS is your friend.
Me when I fall off my bike: 11:14
Copper and bronze act like lubricant. That’s why they use them for bushings.
Although aluminum is soft, aluminum oxide is right next to diamond on the hardness scale.
Aluminum oxide forms in nano-seconds.
Machining aluminum dulls your cutting tools pretty quick because of the oxide.
Aluminum makes a horrible bearing surface.
How about 1 of each in each side
Make an DIY ABS System