Rob Cosman's Dovetail Technique: Success or Failure?
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- čas přidán 28. 08. 2024
- Can I use a combination of Rob Cosman's & Paul Sellers Dovetail technique to great effect?
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#dovetail #robcosman #shawnshim #paulsellers
#karlpopewoodcraft
A superb video. One of the best dovetail how to videos ever. Keep up the great work.
Wow thank you 😊 🙏
I've got another variation on the Cosman technique. Mine might not be quite as precise, but it's fast and no fuss.
For marking the pins, I don't use a knife, but instead I use a modified hacksaw blade.
I once made a cut in a piece of scrap with my dovetail saw, and then took a hacksaw blade. Its kerf was too wide, so I hammered it a bit to reduce the set until it fit perfectly in the kerf left by the dovetail saw. This hacksaw blade now lives in my tool chest together with my dovetail marker. I could add a grip to it, but I don't mind just grabing it.
When I make a dovetail joint, I'll cut the tails (without removing the waste) then place it on top of the pinboard, just like you did. I then use the thickness of my hacksaw blade to shift the tailboard to the side each time, and I use the hacksaw blade to mark the pins (sawing on the pull stroke). It's very fast and precise since I'm using the same tool for measuring the kerf as I'm using for marking the pins.
Absolutely brilliant 💡 idea mate. I'm not very imaginative so I need others to provide the clever ideas lol. I'm a good learner though so copy what you claver people suggest, you'll see your hacksaw blade method in my videos no doubt 😁
That's what Frank Klausz does. Dovetails are a simple joint. Just stick to one method and it wil be as fast as any other. No matter which one you choose. It's making them for decades that makes them work so fast, not the method. I would have a hard time screwing one up on purpose if I wanted to. There is the English Woodworker, David Barron, David Charlesworth.... all using a slightly different method. But they stuck to it.
This is exactly what Rob used to teach. Nothing wrong with it at all.
I started out with Paul's method, made a bunch of little boxes. Watched Rob, made my own Shawn Shim, never looked back. I've done scores now. If I do my job correctly, I seldom need to do any paring. Both techniques work, most woodworkers will prefer one over the other while using lessons learned from both.
Exactly Murphy 💯
My mentor taught me a similar method using the saw plate to create the offsets. This block is lot less cumbersome though and would be perfect for people learning the art of the Dovetail. Really concise and waffle free explanation and tutorial.
Thank you Phil 😊
Rob's been teaching the sawplate offset method for years, including to Shawn. Shawn's contribution was coming up with the shim to make it easier, not the offset.
@@numberkruncherr Yep agreed 👍
Thanks Karl. What a great way to make dovetails.
Cheers mate.
At 3:25 and 3:29 you used the square registered against two different faces. At 3:25 you should flip the square so that it registers against the reference face. When you're using a tool (Shawn Shim or saw plate) at 20 thousandths of an inch (half a millimetre) then very slight misalignment of the two faces could introduce error which will be visible in the final joint - also by referencing against the back face the tape wall that you applied will also knock the square slightly off.
I won't bother checking back in the video however I'm pretty sure I say constantly about referencing from the face side however I'm only human so if I made a mistake which I often do then well done for spotting it and highlighting it. Obviously I did a good job of squaring my timber up as the lines all met correctly and the joint was good. Paul Sellers mark's all the way round not referencing from a face side which you can do if your confident in the squareness of your timber. Also this is woodworking not engineering so fractions of a millimeter in some areas are forgivable.
😊Thank you for watching.
@@karlpopewoodcraft I made my comment for the benefit of anyone watching, not to cause any offence.
Paul Sellers occasionally uses the non-reference face but when he does so he always emphasises how much time and effort he has put in, using his digital callipers, to get his dimensions "perfect".
I know in my own efforts I can't yet get that accuracy and if I reference off two opposing faces there will be a small discrepancy, then the tape wall on the back face would exacerbate that.
In terms of fractions of a millimetre being important, that is the essence of Rob Cosman's method by offsetting the saw line by 0.5 to 0.6mm.
Anyway, no offence intended, just hoping that my comment might be useful to other beginners.
No, he used the square on 2 shoulders, marking each knife line from the same face.
Thank you. You answered all my questions. Very grateful for your generosity
Thank you and your welcome 🙏
0:13 “Shawn came up with this brilliant idea of offsetting the tailboard by the thickness of the kerf”. This is the way that Rob Cosman has been cutting (and teaching) dovetails for years; Shawn's only contribution is the invention of the little block.
Hi Panoa I'm merely recalling what o heard in one of Rob's videos. As I understand it from other comments is the idea in general goes back a long way and other names have been mentioned. If Shawn came up with the block part well that's excellent as well.
My Shim certainly didn’t invent offsetting the kerf. Here’s the basic evolution of Rob’s offset technique. He developed the idea from extending Tage Frid’s technique to simplify where the mark is and create a more positive reference to saw from. Simply offsetting using the saw plate to offset the thickness of the saw kerf. Then marking by using the front teeth of the saw by dragging it across the pin board. Next evolution used a marking gauge to measure the saw kerf and using it to offset the tail board. Much more accurate than feeling the offset using the saw teeth. Then I made it more repeatable by creating a fixed offset gauge. Very positive control and didn’t require setting a marking gauge every time. There have been several other improvements to Rob’s method but those are other topics. I love seeing that something I created is being used by so many people.
I have just cut my first dovetails following this tutorial, I used a couple of bits of plywood, the joints had hardly any gaps, not bad for a first go. I didn’t use the Shaun Shim (maybe I will get that soon), set my wheel marking gauge to the kerf of my Gents Saw. Keep up the great work.
Thank you for the super thanks 😊 yes that's a great way round not having the shim with very similar results. Super happy that the video helped you with your very first attempt. 😀
Very good video, especially the top views. Thanks.
Thank you
Loving your work Karl those joints are a piece of art and demonstrates exactly why people should enrol onto your courses.
Thank you Andy 😊 I really appreciate your support.
As a novice beginner this is fascinating, so much information to absorb.
Thank you. 😊
I think thats the best dovetail how to video that I have seen
Wow thank you 😊 🙏 😊
So glad you just released that Karl - this is a great build on the Rob Cosman videos - same approach but somehow less complicated - after my first attempt at dovetails recently - plenty of room for improvement and looking forward to trying this
Thank you Matthew thats great to hear. Good luck with your project!
The punters are loving the hand tools stuff mate. Top stuff!
Thank you James 😊
I quite like the Jonathan Ktaz-Moses jig, it works with he veritas saw too
Hi Mick is that the one that guilds the angel of the saw with magnets?
@@karlpopewoodcraft yes it is. He tries to sell it with a Japanese saw too but that's unnecessary
Another tip I can offer which you might like to demonstrate is using a block to help guide your chiselling. I set this block by simply setting an old plane blade in the knife line setting it at 90° with a square and then bring the block up to it, it will mean your block is in exactly the right place to use as a guide. I started using this method as my eyesight isn't what it was and it works like a charm.
Try it!
Great tip Dickie 😊
@@karlpopewoodcraft Don't het me started. After 50years in a cabinet shop 35yrs on my own I've learned a few things and probably forgotten most of them. It's great to see so many people on youtube making and teaching but I fear for the beginner. You really don't need a Harvey Cabinet saw and a Felder planer thicknesser to make a garden bench! And don't start me off on that red aluminium crap that adorns every workshop in America, they have made nothing I would want to own and as an example, their so called 'Precesion Squares' aren't anywhere near as accurate as a cheap Engineers square. Last time I looked you can buy a set of four Faithful squares for £25.
Hi Karl, Great job and so neat a master crafts man at his best, Enjoy your take away Mate
Thank you Shaun 😊
Good job
Thank you 😊
Very nice work and great tips. That very, very tiny gap has nothing to do with you but the wood dried out a little between measuring, cutting, and final fit!. You can't help that...hahaha. Seriously, great job.
Ye that's absolutely correct Darren haha 😄 thanks mate
Another good video Karl. Those results looked spot on.
Cheers mate 😄
Hi Karl, I am a woodworker and enjoy watching the way craftsmen like you demonstrate their skills. I watched the Shawn Shim method which you demonstrated and it was impressive. My question is, where did you get the saw that you used to cut the dovetails and what make is it? regards Robin Bishop
Hi Robin, it's a Veritas dovetail saw, extremely nice.
www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0074HJ0RG/ref=cm_sw_r_as_gl_apa_gl_i_B1YVZA026K6JQ59771H7?linkCode=ml2&tag=karlpopewoodc-21
Excellent dovetail video!
Thank you 😊
Very useful. Thank you
Your welcome Rob 🙏
I'll have to make one of those and give it a try.
How would you make one mate? 3d print your own version maybe.
@@karlpopewoodcraft I have a milling machine.
Karl. I wish I had a teacher like u at school man. 🤙
Thanks mate that's really kind of you to say so.
🤦♂️ * you!
@@gbwildlifeuk8269 Pardon?
Nice video m8 some proper good advice in there. Not sure dovetails are in my arsenal just yet but one day hopefully 🏴👍
Once you start you'll get obsessed mate. 😀
@@karlpopewoodcraft yea will hopefully get there some point 🏴👍 how's the wood turning going??
Glen Drake never seems to get credit that he's due for this method. He used to offer his Kerf-Starter many years ago and demonstrated his technique at Lie Nielsen events. I'm sure he was doing this over 15 years ago.
Hi mate, I don't know anything about Glen, I will research him now though. Thank you for the information.
My father used this method in the 1970's. I'd say he learnt it from my grandfather. It's nothing new, but nevertheless a great method. In fact my uncle made his own saw after WW2 and made a kerf saw at the same time, this came about as a butcher wanted a special saw made, so he got the urge to make more.
This offset method is an evolution of the method shown by Ernest Joyce in his Encyclopedia of Woodworking, a superb older reference, but I had never seen it before Rob disclosed it, and it blew my mind. Could be parallel development, history is rife with such. I am eager to learn more about Glen Drake, thanks.
@@leehaelters6182 I've seen discussions of this offset method in conjunction with Glen Drake's products on internet forums going back to about 2007. I only learned of Glen Drake in 2016 at a LN event where he instructed me on the use of his products. In any event, Rob is an excellent teacher, as is Peter Sellers. I just think that Mr. Drake's accomplishment are all too often overlooked. Happy woodworking.
@@leehaelters6182if you ever get a chance, check out the re-prints of "The Woodworker" magazine available from Lost Art Press in 5 volumes. Volume 3 is entirely joinery, with a chapter dedicated to dovetails. These articles are from the late 1930s through the early 60s. Long before Cosman, Drake, and probably even Joyce. And yes, there are several examples of offset kerfs for dovetails. The final, cohesive process that Cosman demonstrates is an evolution of what came before, not innovation.
Nice Video Karl
Thank you 😊 🙏
Great video, just to add, shawn didn't come up with the offset method he came up with the tool.
Thank you 😊
@karlpopewoodcraft No, thank you. I'm a vereran who got to take Robs PHP program and am forever grateful for what that has done for me. I appreciate anyone highlighting the work he does with the PHP. So again, thank you and happy dovetailing!
Certainly a fine demonstration and nice dovetails. I'm wondering if the small gaps may be due to using a marking knife instead of a blade the same width as the saw kerf? I'm thinking the marking knife blade might have a chance to move a bit in the kerf between the tails when marking the pins.
Hi Andrew thank you and yes I think your correct in your thoughts. I'll be making a marking gauge the same kerf I think very soon.
Great technique!
Thank you 😊
excellent !
Thank you 😊
Great. What is the brand and kerf of that knife?
The knife is a stanley craft knife I've linked it in the description (no affiliate) not sure on the kerf but its an extremely tight fit in my saw kerf which is 26 thousands of an inch.
Why spend $40 plus carriage on a Shaun Shim when you can just use a wheel marking guage? When I watched Rob Cosman demonstrates this method he used a wheel marking guage set to the kerf of the saw to offset the tail board. I would have thought that investing in his kerf width saw would be far more valuable, although that is a kings ransom. I tried this method when I first saw it and used an old saw blade cut down to mark the pin board, thus leaving a groove to follow rather than a knife line. I think this is a great help to those who are new to hand cut dovetails.
The tape trick is cool as most of us dont want to spend £200 on a plane just to cut the skinny rebate.
Yes you can use a wheel marking gauge as Rob says in his video, I know personally I wouldn't want to fiddle around doing that when there's a sound option available in the Shawn shim and if your doing dovetails regularly why not for 40 pounds I think it's a sound investment. I agree though it definitely depends on a few things budget, seriousness of your hobby/profession. :) thank you for sharing your thoughts.
Thanks, I'd rather butcher the appropriate sized feeler guage than part with $40. Just checked, a set of feeler guages is £3 on Amazon. We all have our own take on these things.
I remember when I was an apprentice and was told you are only thirty days from mastering the dovetail, just cut one a day for a month and see where you are at. Hate to admit when I brought the result of thirty dovetails for inspection I was told I was only another thirty days from mastering the dovetail. So I cut two a day for the next month and that was that. Can't imagine how many I cut in my working life but I think it's a good maxim to use for the casual woodworker.
42.00 + VAT + Delivery
42.00 + 8.40 + 5.00? = 55.00+
well mister cosman is a sale person first and a woodworker second. he has a big family to feed :)
@@TheVimeoAs a time served cabinet maker I'd say all these CZcamsrs are selling something as it would appear that they can't make a living from just their videos. Sad as a few good ones are now behind a paywall. I'm retired now and I'm glad I just made beautiful pieces for appreciative clients. Working with your hands won't make you rich but I lived a richer life because because of work.
Are you not damging the teeth on your saw when starting the cut with the square?
Hi I don't push it into it, its a gentle guild.
You could definitely make a wooden square though if this is a concern. :)
Will the shim work with a thinner Japanese saw?
Hi mate, the Kerf reference's are 23 thousands of an inch upto 26 thousands. If you have some calipers you could measure the Kerf of your saw. I'm sure it would but probably best to measure first.
@@karlpopewoodcraft
Kerf Width: 0.02"(0.5mm)
Edit:
.5 mm = 19.69 thousands
Guess the answer is no
Don't mark the tails with a knife: You're supposed to mark the pins using your saw or a small blade with the same thickness and kerf as your saw - that's the whole point of the shawn shim.
I explained the point of the Shawn shim in the video did you not watch it properly? Yes a blade with the same kerf as the saw would be ideal however I haven't made one at this time and the knife does a sufficient job for now. Please refrain from from giving people direct orders on social media I'm not your subordinate.
I'm sorry is you misinterpreted my comment as aggressive or commanding. My point was to point out you can use the saw itself to mark the kerf, you don't need to make a special blade.@@karlpopewoodcraft
@jppianoguy thank you, sorry for my overreaction. It's hard to write things in the voice you mean them isn't it. :))
Why do all your tools look brand new?
It's my first day on the job! 🤣😂 I work in a clean tidy workplace, I use my tools everyday and hundreds of my students use them every year and yes I still manage to keep them looking in excellent condition. Tools are expensive and I like to keep them in good condition as I can't be replacing mistreated tools.
@@karlpopewoodcraftthank you for responding. how is that possible? I don't think I saw so much as a scratch in anything. Even the jaw of your bench vice is perfect.
@timbarry5080 haha 😄 well the Jaws where replaced a few weeks ago so that's one reason I suppose but they'll probably look like that this time next year haha
Could've been perfect if only you took your time. Why use such a thick pencil line and not lay it up properly? I don't understand woodworkers at all.
I used a knife.
Wow what a palaver over complicating a basic joinery method and never never run your saw up against a metal square unless you want to instantly knock the set out and the masking tape think wtf is that all about call me old fashion but I've been knocking out dove tails since early 1980s and looking at what your doing it must of taken you 15 to 20 mins to do just one corner which should only be a 10 minute job at worst just keep it simple and how its always been done todays craftsmen seem to need more and more gadgets to make things slower and more complicated ( can i ask did you serve an apprenticeship or gain any city & guilds or are you just having ago buddy )
Firstly I'm not your buddy, secondly im a fully qualified time served cabinet maker. In this video we are experimenting with using other people's methods and tools, ie the Shawn shim. There's hundreds of ways to do things and this is just one.
The bench is racking!
What bench? If you mean my workbench I doubt it, it's the heaviest bench I've ever come across and planted directly on the floor. 🤣
@@karlpopewoodcraft At approximately 15.14 - black top surface bench when you are knocking out the timber? The job is wobbling.
@johnpayne6196 I think what your referring to is my tripod vibrating about a little while I'm hitting the mallet. My tripod is fully stabilised like a provisional movie set up I'm a woodworker making a video. The bench absorbs the shock from the mallet and its transferred into the tripod. What the issue? Would you like to inspect my workbench for stability? 🤣
@@karlpopewoodcraft Wow! Hull is too dodgy to visit? Take care.
Wow!
Thank you 😊