HVAC Brazing Basics With/Without Nitrogen Comparison!
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- čas přidán 27. 07. 2024
- In this HVAC Brazing Training Video, I braze two different copper tubes, one with nitrogen purging through and one without nitrogen. These processes are from start to finish. We look at the results to determine the effectiveness of running nitrogen while brazing any copper tubing joint. I go over tips on how to set up the nitrogen flow regulator prior to brazing. Supervision is needed by a licensed HVACR Tech while doing this as Experience and Apprenticeship garners Wisdom and Safety.
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Information in this video is intended for educational purposes only. Any work related to the topics in this video should be performed by licensed technicians or by apprentices under the supervision of licensed technicians. AC Service Tech LLC is not responsible for any possible damages or injuries caused by the use or misuse of any information provided.
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acservicetech I’m sure you’ve probably spoke on this previously but what’s your opinion of stay brite 8??
Tests by various technicians show that it does hold R410a pressures but I braze whenever possible because I try to mimic the manufacturers as much as possible. All of their equipment is brazed. Flux does add some acid into the system for every joint as well. That is my basic answer, thanks
Few questions for you:
1. How far inside the pipe will the soot accumulate?
2. If flowing nitrogen through the length of pipe isn’t feasible, is there a suitable method to flow nitrogen in the area of the pipe being worked on like in the case of installing an open ended fitting?
3. If the soot is localized to an open ended fitting, is it feasible to remove the soot after brazing ?
Thanks
。。
Truly amazing that you took the time and made the effort to make a video not just telling us, but SHOWING us how running nitrogen is essential and why.
A picture is worth a thousand words, and the quality of the copper inside the first joint with nitrogen was flawless, how it should be.
Wow.
I look forward to sitting down and watching all of your vids. Thanks again.
Rich
Thanks a lot Rich!
Your videos never disappoint! 👍👍 Thank you for sharing your knowledge!!
Thanks Danny L!
Can’t argue with that comparison, Craig. Great job!
Thanks Jack!
your videos are without a doubt the best out there. You explain everything precisely and very informative. Great job... keep em coming. 👍
I appreciate that!
real insight into brazing copper pipes using nitrogen
Thanks Ravi T!
Thank you - as a customer, I had no idea this might be an issue.
I'm about to replace home HVAC system and this was never discussed by any contractors.
I will definitely be insisting on this.
Thanks Jont!
Contractors should already know this as it's part of the procedure when brazing any HVAC lineset. If they're dumbfounded when someone tells them this find another contractor asap.
@@TheHarrisal21 Totally agree.
@@sethmeistergee 3 yrs later I come back to this comment. Just visited a job site last week where they started up 4 DX air handlers in August and 2 weeks ago the compressors failed on 2 and another unit from what I'm told had a clogged txv twice. Mech contractor had a rep for the units come out for the compressors and found out that they didn't use nitrogen purge when brazing which voided the warranty putting the mech contractor on the hook for paying for repairs. Same contractor used PVC on a boiler system and flooded half the wing from the 4th flr all the way down. Lol
@@TheHarrisal21 oh no!!
Excellent demonstration, and video, straight and to the point!!!
Thanks James!
Very convincing! Great video! I am going to run nitrogen today! Thank you!
This is a great video on using nitrogen and I am an hvac student so I look forward to seeing so new techniques
Thanks Taylor!
Hi
How’s your career going? I’m an HVAC student now
Great 👍🏼 Educational Video !
Thank you
Thanks Mason!
I agree that flowing is probably better than just letting the nitrogen sit there. Still I wonder if you'd get the same result just using enough to purge the system of air, then maybe sporadically as needed. It just seems like a waste and possibly a danger if you're in a small enclosed area to be automatically pumping more nitrogen. I guess as long as the flow rate is low you're probably safe in most situations.
Great video as usual
Thanks JDT!
Very cool video!
Thanks Bob!
Wow! the nitrogen really works
Thanks Tecnico!
very well explained!
Thanks Meteora125!
A/c service tech... it'll be a good idea 💡 when one of the technician have a problem trying to solve that particular problem if you could create a scenario showing us how to find the solution to repair it. 😀
I always like to hear everyones' ideas, thanks monterrozacesar5!
This is a seventeen "we're gonna go ahead" video in just nine minutes.
That has to be some kind of a record.
Ha ha, are you at least enjoying the videos and getting info from them?
thanx for the teaching
Thanks Junmar!
Thank you Greg as always
Thank you for watching!
Good Vid.
Thanks, it means a lot OCRefrigeration!
Good video! Thanks!
Thanks Frank!
As always great demo. It is hard to believe how many years it took to realize the effects of brazing without flowing nitrogen. I wonder if non flame methods of pipe joining such as Zoom Lock will gain in popularity over brazing for ACR work.
The main thing holding it back I think are just the prices of the fittings and upfront cost of the tool. Techs will always have to braze though to fix cracks and existing joints, thanks Kenny!
Fantastic
Nice great video
Thanks Orlando!
interesting, thank you ...
Thanks Pei Broker!
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I've always used nitro when brazing, I find that after your all done brazing I will purge the lines for about a minute and this helps the vacume process quite a bit. Always and I repeat always flow when brazing. It takes years off the life of the system
I agree completely and you are right, it helps the vacuum go faster, thanks Riley!
@@acservicetechchannel Ive seen too many times where I am in the recovery process and notice that the oil and refridgerant to be black or very discolored. Either the persons putting the system in did not flow, or a burn out most likely due to not flowing. An extra 5 minutes to run to your van and grab a tank will save the customer money in the long run, but you as well IE- callbacks and the labor and time associated with it. Thanks for the video, who knows how many compressor lives you saved...#compressorlivesmatter....lolol
Ha ha, thanks!
What exactly do you mean, purge the lines after brazing?
I saw a contractor brazing in my neighbor's lineset one time and didn't even use nitrogen. I told my neighbor make sure he gives you at least a 1-3 year warranty. He asked me why, told him just trust me you'll need it. Compressor died in 7 months.
What do you think about using zoomlock instead of brazing?
Excellent tutorial. Do you happen to be a training person in HVAC school if so where. Thank you
So if you have braxed without Nitrogen, can the situation be recovered, if the joints are on extended pipe work?
Thank you for a great detailed presentation. Is Soft Soldering instead of Brazing on HVAC systems acceptable?
They make some silver bearing soft solder for this. Don't use plumbing soft solder. Most of us don't use it as it has to be a tight perfect joint to use it. With a brazing rod I can fill gaps or holes
Love your videos but at 7:43 what do you mean granted you may still have had nitrogen in the lines before brazing? Or do you mean like when fixing a leak?
I use nitrogen to braze on a closed system. I build ice makers and I find that it saves on nitrogen if Indont use it and run water thru the pipes. I braze a lot of pieces on my table first, then assemble the build. But I use water and it cleans the inside just as good as nitrogen. Especially when it's still hot
Thanks "I Walk in Circles"!
Is stay brite 8 a good alternative to brazing with nitrogen flow?
Thank you
Why didn't you use flux? Would it make a difference on the second joint?
who gave this thumbs down? this separates the hakes from the pros.
Yeah it was the hacks that gave it the thumbs down.
Would like to see solder results also some other brazing video wet rag cooling can crack solder?
Could another inert gas be used like 75/25? Or 100% argon? I have both of those welding gases. I don’t have nitrogen.
Definitely purging with N. Now I need to see if my tarnished HARRIS STAY SILV 15% are ok to use. Thanks
I use 15% braze rod and that brand, works well, thanks!
I have to extend some lines on a mini-split. If I cannot purge with nitrogen, then I'm better off using a flare nut union?
Opinions?
Thanks
Stu
Probably, why can't you use Nitrogen? I actually ran into the same issue on a mini split yesterday. I only had to do one 1/4 line. I didn't use Nitrogen but I definitely should have.
Thanks for sharing, what number tip were you using?
Thanks Pops McCartney! A11
Curious question: what does the inside of the cap look like after brazing? Does the nitrogen prevent the oxidation inside the pipe? Or does it just push it out the whole in the cap? Thanks
It looked like regular copper since oxidation won't form without oxygen. It didn't blow out of the cap hole, it didn't form at all, thanks Barry!
The link that you provided for the 15% silver brazing rods, is that the only brazing rods that you can use for Hvac? What are the other kinds and do you recommend any others. Thanks!!
Hey Danny, you could also use staybrite #8 with flux but I almost always use the 15% silver rods. Manufacturers braze and don't solder so that is what I do, thanks a lot!
That was a weird brazing technique but it was faster and effective and that’s all that matters lol ... I know you was brazing vertically but I like to start my torch from the bottom when I’m brazing horizontal joints so it immediately starting pulling it to where I might not be able to see really well so I can get it all on the first run
Yeah I usually start the torch flame at the bottom too for the same reason, thanks!
Thanks for sharing the video. Can you share me the information where can I buy the nitrogen?
The nitrogen regulators can be found through www
Amazon.com/shop/acservicetech but the nitrogen will need to be purchased through a local supply house, thanks!
Wow! Do you have your own HVAC school?
Hey, Do I need to flow nitrogen when sweating apart copper joints? Like changing out a condenser coil for instance, sure the old coil doesn't matter because its trash but the other side of the joint will remain in the system.
Don’t sweat it apart unless you’re limited on space. Just cut it and swedge it.
Turbo Torch? I am new to this field, and not decide which type of torch to buy, Turbo or Oxy Acetylene? Any suggestions? Thanks
Turbo Torch is certainly much easier to learn and you can braze anything you really need with it. It is a good torch to start with or even continue on with. I have the setup I use linked at amazon.com/shop/acservicetech thanks!
Professional
How do you do the last braze when there is nowhere for the nitrogen to go?
We've never ran N while brazing, may suggest it. But what about when you braze the evap coil? Wonder if it affects the TXV's.. And we always pressure test 5-10 minutes with N after brazing
Check out "acservicetech brazing service valves" for more info but we flow nitrogen through he whole system including through the evap during the brazing process, thanks!
If I click on an amazon link how long is it good for? a day or more? If buy something on amazon I ll try to remember to click the link first, thank for the video
good for 24hrs, thanks a lot!
I see a lot of videos talking about the necessity of using nitrogen during the brazing process and yet I do not see any service videos showing the effects on the equipment because of it. During the 80s and 90s no one uses nitrogen and the equipment seems to run just fine. Will somebody please comment on this
Older refrigerants like R22 utilized mineral oil. Newer refrigerants like 410a and even some r22 replacements use POE oil that will scrub the oxidation from inside the lines and potentially gum up metering devices and filters
@@rojobandito318You know as well as I that there is alot of surface area in a filter....I hardly think there would be enough oxidation to surface load it....I have personally opened system that have been braze without NO2 and removed the orfices and looked for debris seeing none.....expansion valves I have not but most residential a/c do not use expansion valves....Perhaps one should use NO2 with those. My experience is that the concern is overblown at it is just a way to bad mouth the competition.
Science says you should.
@@rojobandito318 Ya Science is also telling me i will destroy the world if I eat beef or don't get the covid shot....Your kidding right???Why do we bother installing liquid line filters if what you say is true....I think it is bullshit....I haven't had any trouble and I am more inclined to think it is a way for manufacturers to weasel out of warrantying their poorly manufactured Chinese Equipment.....You sure in hell can't believe ANYTHING the democrats disguised as scientists say.....I mean if you are an actual thinking human being not a minion.
@@LongTrout Yeahh, I know about 30 installers and techs who don't use nitro. It's all within margin of error, so no need too. If the filter can't handle it, than we'd have thousands of call backs.
Bursting strength, tensile strength, shearing strength, even heat, Stay Bright 8 with MAPP is superior. Less heat on the pipe (by thousands!), and no oxidation of the pipe. Other that a hole that needs feathering or sloppy fittings, there is no need for brazing. Even the argument that flux is evil is a complete red herring. We use flux with Stay Silv, yes? Anyone brazing for most applications is a fool. Keep the appropriate reducers on your truck and do it right. For the last 25 years I take out my Oxy/ Acetylene rig out 3 times a year.
Hi thank you for all informative videos. I need some advise if you have some time to answer. I would really appreciate any help.
I am stuck at a service call. I spent hours trying to diagnose last night.. When I arrived Lennox G51 furnace inducer motor was running, no ignition. Led light showed error code for open pressure switch, blocked vent pipe or clogged condensate drain. I cleaned condensate drain checked vent pipes. When I started the system I get ignition but furnace stops in 4 seconds. I cleaned the flame sensor (looks brand new) same problem persists. Board still shows error code for pressure switch. I checked the pressure switches and inducer pressure with my pressure switch tester and pressures look fine as well.Thank you
Caner Uzelgok Hey you said you cleaned condensation trap. Also make sure it’s not opened anywhere before the trap or water may get into the inducer and cause it to trip. Or try this. When the inducer comes on. Jump out the pressure switch and see if it gives you an error again. Could be a bad board. If the unit stays on then it’s definitely a pressure problem. Hair line crack somewhere in the collector box. Just some ideas brother. I know the feeling.
I appreciate the help I will definitely check on those. Thanks brother!
Are you reading the pressure with a tee in the line in order to check pressure during operation with everything connected? Did you check the pressure switch isolated from the furnace with a pump such as on the sdmn6? pttanz is right, you could temporarily jump out the switch to see if it continues to happen. Pttanz, thanks for helping him out! Caner, you are right to still check the flame rectification in case it is throwing the wrong error code since it is right after ignition. When that happens many times it is the condensate line that is pitched incorrectly and the inducer motor running allows the water to trip the switch. Same thing with water filling up an exhaust line due to improper pitching, it is intermittant and may come after a few seconds. This may be the board though, try jumping the switch to see what happens, thanks
acservicetech Thank you for responding. I have not checked the inducer pressure with a tee. I have checked each hose individually mean while other hoses were connected to the pressure switches. Yes I have isolated the pressure switches and checked them with my sdmn6. Should I use a tee instead of checking pressures individually? I'm a junior tech do not have a lot of experience with furnaces. This furnace Has two pressure switches and two hoses going to each one (black and red). I will check each component as you advised. Thank you for the help. I really appreciate it.
if inducer motor runs and flame glows, you may want to replace that pressure switch or check pressure hose kinked or pinch hole
Wondering your opinion on non-hot work line connections such as Zoomlock, Lokring, or HVAC Super Pro (liquid copper bonding compound). Or if you personally have ever used any? I think the benefits would be: no need for torch (safer), no oxydation, and therefore no need for nitrogen. Thanks for your videos, always learning a lot.
I don't know anyone with any experience of the HVAC Super Pro. The other two are nice in circumstances next to vital components such as a copper tube cut too close to the service valve, or reversing valve. I am not opposed to other techniques as long as the availability for parts are available. Obviously, it will always be crucial to have a torch and nitrogen to fix odd joints, cracks, or dissimilar size transitions. I have a hard time persuading techs to install a txv instead of a piston for efficiency and compressor safety. That is only 75-100 dollars. I think the problem here is cost vs brazing or sweating, thanks Josh!
I ordered some of the Super Pro just for fun. I'll let you know my personal feedback. Thanks for the reply.
Is there an alternate way to do the nitrogen sweep with a small canister without investing in a big tank, regulator and flow meter?
Unfortunately no but you could do silver soldering instead which is a lower flame and doesn't need nitrogen but a small amount of acid will be introduced into the system due to the flux, thanks!
Thanks. I’ll figure out how to do it the right way.
@@acservicetechchannel I have to say you are doing great and your videos very understandable. I have 2 questions Is there any solution to remove acid from the system? What are the other pros and cons when we compared brazing and silver soldering at the AC systems?
Don't you risk breaking the joint when you rapidly cool it with a wet rag?
Can I just solder my lines instead of brazing them?
What's the difference when using air acetylene vs oxy acetylene when brazing copper?
Oxy is needed for very large pipes 2" and bigger and also is nice for when it is windy, thanks!
If you don't flow nitrogen is there any way to clean flush the system after the fact?
Yes braze it all in leave both your shredder cores out then connect your high side to your liquid line,then attach your ref line to your nitrogen then crack just your high side on gauges and your ref line on gauges leave low side and vacuum closed on gauges then open nitrogen hold finger over suction line shredder core till you can’t hold your finger on it no more then let it blast out do that about 5 times then put shredder cores back in both your valves then pressure check and vaccuum
Would using Argon instead of Nitrogen yield acceptable results?
That should be fine. It is commonly used for welding and usually more expensive but if you happen to have access to that, it would work, thanks
Can we use azote instead of oxygen?
what type brazing rod do you use for copper to brass fitting?
Silvaloy 560 would work from Lucas Milhaupt, thanks
thank you.
Why would you braze AFTER pressure testing with nitrogen? I didn't say it, you did.
Just curious.. in plumbing flux is used. Why none in a/c?
TurboFlush because we use capillary attraction of the flame with the silver solder to braze, so flux is not needed. The silver solder has a higher melting temperature then the solder used in plumbing. Also the flux could cause contamination in a Refrigeration, AC or Heating system that could cause allot of problems for many components in the system that could lead to system failure in a great number of ways.
Hey TurboFlush, Thanks James! Yes the Phosphorus acts as the flux but does not leave any acid like in standard fluxes. Some do use silver solder even though it does add some acid to the inside of the system but manufacturers all use 15% braze to connect their copper tubing together, thanks
Depends what you are brazing too. In brass to copper applications you will need flux with brazing rod similar to easy-flo. Where as when doing copper to copper you can just use the bog standard sil-fos.
When brazing copper to copper brazing sticks contain a small amount of flux
An experienced tech told me that he flows 410a while brazing and that doesn’t cause oxidation. Is this true?
Dont do what that tech says. You can not vent refrigerant into the atmosphere while brazing. That's against epa 608 standards. Also you can only allow r410a put of the bottle as a liquid with the bottle upside down. Also you dont want to create phosgene gas. So many things wrong with that one, wow!
Use nitrogen with a flow meter, thanks and if you do things right you will have nothing to worry about, thanks!
Scary to think people like that work on air conditioning equipment.
Wow!
Hi, just found your videos, very informative. I have a question, should you use the stay silver flux when you braze these lines, or can it be done without as long as they are clean. What is you recommendation for this. Thanks for all the videos, I am learning allot.
They are self fluxing because of the phosphorus already in the rod. We flow nitrogen when brazing 1350 degree silver bearing rod. If you are just silver soldering with flux then no need to flow nitrogen. That just adds a little acid into the lines though because of the flux, thanks
What about using co2 instead of nitrogen?
The black mess is Oxidation, so CO2 would probably produce the same black mess inside the piping as air. If you're a welder and have an Argon bottle, I have heard that the result is the same as Nitrogen (clean piping no black mess inside the pipe). Probably similar with any of the inert gases (He, Ne, Ar, etc).
You pressurize BEFORE you braze? Why?
We don't pressurize the lines, but just run nitrogen through the tubing to purge the air while high temp brazing to stop the oxidation affect from occuring on the inside of the tubing. Make sure nitrogen is flowing at 3 cfh and that there is an outlet for the nitrogen to vent at so the tubing does not pressurize, thanks
acservicetech thanks. I understand and use that practice. But you said pressurize, so it through me off.
I am a teacher and I want to know how you pinched off the tube and inserted the access tube so I can teach it to my students
I do that with linesman's pliers a little at a time. If there is anything else you need, please let me know. Where do you teach?
@@acservicetechchannel I teach in California but came from Philadelphia.
No doubt, use nitrogen!
Just curious: In the real world, if brazing a lineset without nitrogen, there would not be the two openings to create a chimney effect drawing more air through while you braze.
Wouldn't a better comparison be brazing the joint with two (unmodified) caps on it? The small amount of oxygen in the closed area would get used up pretty quickly then there would be no new oxygen to limit the creation of additional scaling, correct?
The best experiment would be tubes connect to a system and cutting tem back open again when done. Remember there will be a lot of air already in tetubead the port will be open at the service valve when brazing near there, thanks!
ahhhh now i know.....this is the reason why we kill 4 pcs of 12.5 copeland compressor in just 3 days
Interesting ha!
U should have fix new drier filter .so when compressor is working all the carbon dusts would deposit in the filter
Actually txv or reversing valve can't take the flakes!!
Compressor will pump flakes 😆
On residential appliance repair a major appliance manufacturer don't recommend running nitrogen when brazing. I found it to be confusing since we run nitrogen on ac repair or install.
Do they explicitly say don't have to run nitrogen or did they just not mention it at all? Thanks Ron!
The guy work with doesn't braze with nitrogen. He blasts the suction then liquid line when he is done. He says this blows the particles into one side of the Txv screen and blows them the other way when he switches lines.
Hey Colin, it doesn't take much longer to do it correctly flowing nitrogen, thanks!
@@acservicetechchannel but it still works just blowing nitrogen in both suction and liquid line, and it saves time? Why braze with nitrogen?
@@colinrobson8861 I don't think he will be blowing all of the particulates out of the tube. I was just trying to be nice by saying it doesn't take much longer to do it correctly. All the carbon will not break free of the inner walls of the tubing until the refrigerant and oil travel through it. You can run an experiment to prove this point. Don't create the carbon dust in the first place. Thanks Colin!
He probably doesn't use a micron gauge either. These little pain in the ass thing's matter when you're spending 2k or more on a system. It deserves a little finesse and a bit more time to ensure the most factory like conditions inside the system.
A high-tech product was born, a high-temperature flame welder that uses air instead of oxygen acetylene. Looking for partners worldwide!
I braze with MAPP gas. MAPP gas doesn't have that problem.
Hey pointed spider, if the copper gets up to 1350 degrees in order to melt the 15% braze rod then the oxidation will occur. It does not occur if using silver solder but then acid flux is used and introduced into the system, thanks
Copper oxide
You should have had some nitrogen flowing, when you brazed that wedding ring on your finger.
The resulting oxidative discoloration of the ring may indicate a possible reduction of long term functionality of the affected finger.
Ha ha, nice, you don't want all that oxidation in the system though so we always flow nitrogen through, thanks
No nitrogen, like flicking cigarette ashes into the system.
Yup, its pretty bad, thanks O-Zone!
Been brazing for 10 years without nitrogen no problems yet stop wasting y'all money only use nitro to pressurize!!!
Hack
Fake, I didn’t see any oxygen coming in😂
It was an air acetylene torch, not oxy acet
no oxygen? jus sajin
This is just an air acetylene brazing video, thanks chin!
Only thing is don’t cool it with a rag , let it slowly cool