New method for etching brass dials - great detail!
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- čas přidán 6. 02. 2018
- These brass dials are for my reproduction of the James Watt micrometer.
I spent 8 months trying to find a simple and fast method which produced great results. At the end I show many of the mistakes I made along the way and show how I now avoid them.
Here is one source for lasertape. There are are others which are cheaper but you need to buy in larger quantities.
www.johnsonplastics.com/catal...
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machinethinking.co/ - Věda a technologie
After watching the first video: " that's really neat, let's see what else he's done"
After watching several videos "my envy is as endless as his talent and tool collection"
Kudos to rub’n brite, thats how you do business and keep customers. Also glad your dog was ok
Yeah, that's also how you get new ones, i'm getting it if i can get it here.
The music should be background...its kind of deafening in between talking points.. but nice job on the instruction!
Agreed.
Going to agree here. Needs faster fade in/out
Maury Hancock yeah just sounds like me playing my first takes improvising on piano cello and violin, and the piano is de tuned in a temperament of jackass of all trades, where my strings are stock on the Chinese made bottom of the line string section instruments that are impossible to get harmonic overtones, let alone a good vibrato on.... oh how it sounds all too familiar
I like how forward is. Its not background music its a montage i guess. And i love the music too.
He should've pinned his comment where he explained that the issues with the loud music is coming from youtube
Good Lord, i love this account. You’re quickly becoming a favorite, right up among This Old Tony and Clickspring. Quality content, beautiful manufacturing, and elegant, timeless designs. You’re an inspiration for sure
Your vid popped up while watching the latest Clickspring vid. Great stuff! Instantly subbed! I appreciate the hands on supplemented with the historical context.
I am enjoying all your videos. I was a tool&die maker back before I was retired and your videos I am finding very interesting. I always wondered how many possible variations Jo-blocks could make. I watched the video in which you made a worm gear and that totally fascinated and which I had never considered. WOW Keep the vids coming I am enjoying them all. Steve
Thanks for sharing this info! Especially the background at the end! It's hard sometimes to know the value of a technique until you see the downside(s) of the alternatives!
Thanks for the tip on adding the soap. Will def use it. Furthermore, great videos and thank you for the time you put into it.
How in the world do you make literally every word so incredibly interesting? You are the most incredible person of the modern age, and I am not exaggerating much on that at all.
The trick with the soap works excellent for polishing stainless steel, too.
Nice job with those dials. I'll definitely watch your other videos too.
very detailed & precise, as one would expect from a master machinist. glad yer puppy was ok. EXCELLENT customer service.
Mate your videos are awsome , just found your channel today and have been absolutely entertained for the past 4 hours
Excellent method. Can't wait to try it.
What a fantastic & informative video, I could watch stuff like this for hours.
Have you done any acid etching on metal? Which method did you use and how did it turn out? Also, CZcams auto-leveled the music making it louder than I had it. Sorry!
Now I try with melted bitum, dust, and scratching ... I will post the resuts on facebook :) more art related
Would this work on aluminum? Also where do you buy the laser tape?
Sir say about digital printing for making anodized aluminum name plate
Machine Thinking
Any machine available for anodized aluminum name plate
With aluminium I did use drain cleaner ( sodium hydroxide) to get a thick oxide film, and to strip off worn colour coats. Then just a wash in weak organic acid ( I used ascorbic acid as I could get it in a pure form) to grow a new thick oxide layer. Never did a dye on it, but I suppose I could use Azo dye with it as well during the acid wash stage.
Very interesting video! Also, I'm sure we're all glad your dog turned out okay!
Fantastic series, which I am currently working my way through - thank you. PS the music was fine :-)
Quality channel, nice commentary, I appreciate the attention to detail and the scientific approach. subscribed
It’s really good to see that proper engineering still takes place in the 21st century.
Absolutely enjoyed this entire process!
Excellent video. That laser does a fantastic job. I can't imagine doing any better way.
a photomask produced via electron-beam lithography would produce much more reliable positional accuracy. That's how this would be done in a microelectronics fab.
Outstanding videos, all of them! Keep them coming, you’re gonna do well on CZcams!!
Nice process. Thanks for sharing.
Hi! I do some work in PCBs, which is similar to dial engraving. I don't use Ferric Chloride (too messy). I prefer a fresh mix of HCl and H2O2 (1 part muriatic / chloridric acid and 2 parts hydrogen peroxide). For a dial like yours, I would spray paint the whole dial (all sides) and use the laser to remove the paint, then etch
There is another way to etch that I only tested to make shallow engraving, but requires no acid, for full metal parts - Electrolysis (water + salt and a battery charger or similar and an auto lamp in series to limit max current - start with low power lamp and increase as needed).
I use a different method for separating the laser tape... take 2 squares of tape (I like Scotch 3650 “Long Lasting” Packaging tape for this), stick one piece to a corner on the _”back”_ (tape) side and while holding it, place t’other piece onto the _”front”_ (film) side. The key is to not let them stick together (I’ll sometimes fold the back piece onto itself to hide the adhesive side), but once you have tape on both sides when you pull them apart the film comes with it :)
Thanks for the etching tips. The dials look great.
Who on earth gives superb content creators like you thumbs down, I can't see how!
Love your work and fascinating angle on all things mechanical.
It's the unexpectedly loud music.
In the 1970s and1980s I used to etch brass and copper and I used my own mixture of Chromic and Sulfuric acids and made photoresist masks. I heated the etching bath to 125° F. and agitated the bath so as to bring fresh etchant to the surface. The Chromic acid acted as a banking agent so my final project would NOT be undercut; I could keep fine line definition. I tried ferric chloride but, it didn't work for me and I always kept undercutting. Nice channel.
Same job in the 80s, thats until the EPA got involved. We used a spray machine with 20 gals of warm ferric chloride, with either a KPR or asphalt screened resist. KPR held very very fine detail, never had trouble with breakdown on brass, stainless was hard to get depth on. We used Chromic to brighten the etched areas, also made back ground etched brass, colored anodized alum. Chromic acid and stainless steel both produced "hexavalent chrome", EPAs newer stricter disposal guidelines made it impossible, the cost of disposal was enormous, so the end was imminent. Some of my work was presented to the Houston Oilers. Mass produced etching is not done anymore to my knowledge. We had a process where we used black anodized with lye, the end result looked like a paper with black ink. Did lots of photos with black anodized. Amazing detail. Sure miss those days.
For anyone wanting to get some Ferric chloride, you can make it very cheaply... Get some steel wool (20g), 100ml of hydrochloric acid, 37% (any pool supply), and some 3% hydrogen peroxide. Dissolve the steel wool in the acid (takes an hour or so), then add some hydrogen peroxide. And there ya go... Super cheap and readily available.
Nurd Rage has an excellent video on how to do this, btw.
Top work. Excellent project and great attention to detail.
This is awesome, thank you for making this video. I am listowner of homebrewpcbs on Groups.io.
I'm not surprised toner transfer didn't work well. It doesn't do well with large area coverage and does have a problem with holes due to the printing patterns, as you found out. With narrow traces, people are using roll laminators. It must be one with a "Foil" setting, that is the temperature that will melt toner. Then either running it through a half-dozen times, or modifying it so it runs much more slowly. Since it is melting the toner and squishing it down, it tends to fill in pinholes, but it also tends to widen the traces, or in your case it would narrow the etchable areas.
What you've come up with is fantastic. I'm thinking this should work with those low power solid state lasers that can be added to a small CNC.
Muriatic acid and hydrogen peroxide are not ready the moment you mix them. The proper process is to add copper, to turn it into cupric chloride. It should be a nice emerald green color. It can then be renewed with either more hydrogen peroxide, or with a bubbler. Cupric chloride etches MUCH faster than muriatic acid and hydrogen peroxide.
This page goes into quite a lot of detail of how to make and maintain cupric chloride.
home.exetel.com.au/adam.seychell/PCB/etching_CuCl/index.html
It is funny, I have had terrible experiences with ferric chloride. Etch so slow, it gets under the resist. Parts of the board etched through to the fiberglass substrate while large areas are only half etched. Painfully slow etching even when I heat it.
I do plan on trying ferric chloride again, as it certainly is working well for you on brass. Perhaps cupric chloride just doesn't work well on brass.
Amazing knowledge and skill,thanx for your time!
When etching circuit boards with acid, I’d use a mount to keep the board sideways in the mix so bubbles wouldn’t stick, and would use a bubble stream to ensure uniform exposure.
great video ! btw.. if you use dupont photosensitive film laminated to the work piece with a regular office laminator it sticks really well. and the chemical for developing it is a washing soda and to remove it is a sodium hydroxide - that's a drain cleaner. and of course it's easier to get a UV lamp than to get a laser cutter.
Do you use the photosensitive film laminated with a laser cutter?
Bonus content was very impressive. You experimented with a lot of different methods before settling on this and the laser. Obviously this video conveys extremely valuable information.
Superb workmanship!
That is a great video, entertaining, informative, useful, and brass is just awesome. Thanks!!
Nice video! I've read where they used to use asphaltum varnish for the resist. I suppose they would print that one the stock and then after the acid etching was complete, they would wash the asphaltum off with turpentine.
Great work. When I acid etch brass I spray the brass plate with mat black and then 'engrave' the design off with the laser. I get very good results but I will try the laser film .
Magnificent video!
Wow that was awesome man!! Thanks so much for showing this. I would have such a big smile on my stupid face after getting that result. Really enjoying your vids :)
Such beautiful work!!!!
Very nice. I’ve been thinking about getting a laser cutter, but I haven’t decided how much power I need yet. Ferric chloride is the standard etchant for making circuit boards. I started doing that 55 years ago.
But it also makes nasty hole in clothes, so my mother did not like it in the 70d, when I was heavily PCB‘ing.
Today I let the Chinese do it for me. They are much more professionals then I ever was. And no FeCl3 holes anymore 😎
@@fromgermany271 yeah, I was pretty careful. I still have the plexy tanks I made for that. I haven’t made a complex board in almost twenty years. Though it’s easier than ever now.
Beautiful work, well explained. Thank you.
Thnx to share your precious experience
Anand Panchal
You know about anodized aluminum name plate making process
Thanx for sharing this experience. I enjoyed it.
Wow, those are gorgeous!
HOkay . . . . I am an artist. I principally work in jewelry scale. But I do far more than that, including professional woodworking and machining. But the arts I am known best for are jewelry arts. I do lapidary, silver and goldsmithing, including modeling waxes and casting, glass fusion, and enameling. And that is what I want to talk about. Enameling. I do a variety of enameling techniques, and one of them is champlevé enameling. Champlevé is engraving or etching a grove into a piece of metal, usually copper but gold and silver work also, then filling the incised design with glass. I don't engrave, way too much skill required. But I do etch. I like to do petroglyphs that I photograph and photoshop into line drawings. But I will use royalty free art when I can not access the original site. Like I said, I photoshop the original artwork into line drawing artwork. This then gets laser printed onto PnP paper. PnP is "press 'n peel". You have to have the right laser printer (an older one) for this material to work. You print your design (in negative) onto the PnP paper on the dull blue side. After printing you cut out the section you are going to etch and using heat (a household iron in my care) you heat and press the black and dull blue side down onto your copper. Once cool, you peel off the shiny acetate and that leaves you with an acid resist. Mask the backside and edges. Then etch with Ferric Chloride (I go through gallons literally). Once the etch is done, remove the masking and remove the resist with acetone. Cut your work to finish size, drill all required holes, etc.. Then you need your glass. I use a 325 grit Thompson enamel in the 1000 series that I buy direct from Thompson Enamel. 325 grit is a custom grind that they only make when ordered. 2 ounces is around $15-20 and will last a long time. The default grind in 80 grit. But 325 grit is finer and works far better. Mix some of the enamel powder with distilled water into a thick paste and work the paste into the groves you want to fill. You can use any color you like, Thompson has about 80-90 series 1000 enamels to choose from. And once kind of dry, scarp off the excess as well as you can. There are also special glues you can use instead of water, but water is fine. Thompson sells a product called A-1 I believe that is great. Then heat your piece in a kiln to roughly 1400-1450 degree F. The larger the piece, the longer the hold time. Normally I batch fire these pieces so that it takes about 15 minute for my work to come back up to temp in an already hot kiln and then soak for say 5 minutes. Remover your work from the kiln and allow to cool. Then polish your face as you have been doing. HOWEVER, you can not use brass. Or some bronzes for that matter. Glass, even small amounts, does not like zinc. And the glass will shatter and flake off on cooling. Enameling is usually done on pure copper, fine silver and fine gold to get the best quality work. However, alloys of gold, copper, and silver that only contain gold, copper, and silver will also work as well. No one usually enamels sterling silver (92.5% silver and 7.5% copper) because of the gray fire scale that develops under the surface of the sterling and has to be sanded out. Good luck, lover your work.
Janet
Excellent work. We will try this method to make pins.
What a great source of plastic - cutting boards. I never thought of that, brilliant.
Hobby Lobby sells a lot of different materials that can be used by the hobbyist. I needed a piece of hard plastic for a project. I thought I was going to have to order online. 7pm on Saturday night I'm whining to my wife about having to stop because of needing the plastic. She tells me she's going to the store. 30 minutes later she walks in with a 19.5" X 1.5" white Acrylic rod..... Hobby Lobby sells them in their cake decorating dept, as a "fondant roller"! Hard, white acrylic, machined beautifully! I was able to make the bushings I needed. Sunday evening, took my wife to her favorite restaurant!
I was an engraver for a couple years, that laser tape is great. You can hit the corner with an upside down can of air to freeze it then peel it instead of doing the whole thing...edit: oh and a rubber squeegee for the bubbles. I made some crude pcb boards with sharpie and muriatic acid lol
Anytime I see your videos, it is such a pleasure to see a master Machinist instruct those of us who do not have the skill as of yet. We are lucky to Live in this timeframe in history. It was boggles one's mind to think how this was done many , many years ago. It would have been much harder without the modern tools of today. It shows the ingenuity of the human Minds where the masters of yesteryear did things that were next to Impossible but did it anyway. Anytime you look at an old machine from the 15th 16th 17th whatever century , remember these masters of machinery wer ahead of their time. Without their ingenuity and perseverance, what we have today would not exist. That is the number one reason we should keep any and all machines, literature and most of all, knowledge of the past. Too many great inventions and machines have been scrapped only to get Pennies on the dollar. Thank goodness individuals like Mr. Ford who kept some his factories to show future Generations the machines and tooling necessary to produce automobiles. Many of those automobiles do not exist but the machines and tools exist. With the help of Thomas Edison , we have somewhat of a records of the past. Isn't technology lovely? Thank you once again for your video.
Very nice work! I've watched a few channels grow from the first ten thousand subs and developed something of an eye for who is going to make it; You most definitely will if you just keep 'em coming. Also, wouldn't laser engraving have done the trick? I get that you wanted to master brass etching and all, but since you already had the piece on the laser table...
Ferric Chloride is the etchant we've always used for diy circuit boards. The laser tape idea is Interesting though.
Muriatic acid and hydrogen peroxide technique requires *constant* agitation and is a pain in the arse if you're etching anything other than PCBs, yeah. Aside from that, the pieces you produced in the end are absolutely stunning. Excellent video! :)
Beautiful!! Aso glad your dog is okay
Judy - You're awesome, keep it up!
For holding metal workpieces, some use super-glue (cyanoacrylate). It softens under heat, and so can be easily removed (and then cleaned with acetone). CZcamsr, Clickspring, uses this often.
This is so much better than just watching boring gifs :D
Another great video. I have to say that I really lie the "Bonus Material" section as well.
Top tip: I keep a spray bottle of soap water solution in the shop for wetting sandpaper, also good for washing hands, cleaning lenses, and checking for leaks in air pressure or torch bottles.
Not sure if 3M still makes a tape for etching electronic circuits. I had occasion to do some very detailed glass etching and that stuff worked great.
Oh my gosh that rub n brite story is just heart melting
I use a similar process to etch PCB's, I just paint the whole thing black. After that I use the lazer to burn away the paint. A quick wipe with a toothbrush and its ready to etch. The paint comes when exposed to acetone
It's not ClickSpring but.............YOUR ARE AWESOME!!!!!! THANK YOU SOOO MUCH!!! You are Expanding my mind, intriguing my interest in the Origin of our trade and it's secrets, while entertaining use with Knowledge and Skill..thank you and sorry about the ClickSpring joke.....hahahaha
AWESOME AWESOME info... you've saved alot of people ALOT of time, effort, & headaches! Absolutely amazing video. Im curious is this a hobby for you, or is this your profession?
Ferric chloride has been used for etching printed circuit boards for decades - Radio Shack stores (in the 1970's) always had some bottles in stock. I've never heard of muriatic acid or hydrogen peroxide being used for etching the copper from PC boards. Plus, muriatic acid is pretty dangerous stuff compared to the others.
too much violin, needs more cowbell
MT have you ever tried traditional acid etch covers like wax or grease? Assuming your laser can cut through the wax or grease evenly without melting its super easy to clean up and easy to handle.
Very good info, although (me) being a regular old time machinist I kind of wonder why you didn't just use your lathe and mill to engrave your dials rather than etch them. I've made a ton of dials for various machines and a few clocks. You can make a graver any width you need, and use the lathe to index. If you have a dividing head, even better, but with the time you took trying to find out the best process, you could have made dividing plates for your lathe and done the dials that way.
I don't mean this as a criticism. Just a machinist's way of doing it, plus you have the added bonus of the index/dividing plates to use on your lathe for future jobs.
I like your channel, and have subscribed.
dcw56 no offense taken. In an upcoming video you will see me using a dividing head quite a bit. However this process let’s me etch any pattern, not just those which are easily machined which will also be useful in future episodes. Point taken for sure though. Thanks for watching!
Well,seeing as these are james watt repro dials,and he was a fellow scot(me),i'l impart some friendly scottish technical info ,i am an electronics technician,i make my own pcbs when i have to,i use a proper bubble etch tank that will agitate the ferric chloride etchant also it heats the etchant so the etch time for brass(i make audio gear so volume,tone etc is etched in brass plate) is very short,15-20mins,same as a pcb more or less.
The problem with the acid etch is smut build up,and the reason you hang the dial plate face down,you can do it vertical and use a fish tank pump to make the whole thing work faster,use a solid plastic tube with lots of small holes,about 0.3-0.5 mm dia,with a stainless steel weight to hold it down seeing as it's full of air to agitate the etchant.
If you read this let me know,and i'll speed up your etch time even more,scottish style.
Whenever I'm running a piloted tool like that circle cutter or a hole saw, I like to pre drill the center hole and use a solid pin to pilot with after. I find they always bounce around in the flutes of the drill which is kinda crap. ps: Whats the history on that monarch?
I know I must be missing something. To avoid the need for making the bushing, why not drill the center hole a quarter inch to start and then expand it to final dimension after the lathe work? Love your videos. Thanks.
In printmaking we use a large feather to remove the bubbles.
I remember doing some kind of art project ages ago with an etch on copper foil... I remember that etch being sulfur based. (Stunk as you'd expect.) And as part of how it worked, it blackened the copper foil. I wonder why that wasn't used, since the markings were made black later anyways?
Could you do a video on your workshop? I took metal working classes back in college and always dreamed of having my own shop. Do you have any pointers for equipment (metal lathe).
Tip for separating the Ikonics layers:
Once you get it going, rip it off real fast, like a bandaid. The green stuff really doesn't want to let go of the clear film and it will stretch a lot. BUT it stretches slow. If you think you're pulling too fast, pull faster.
Why do you need to separate the laser tape layers?
hi! I really love your channel! what would you recommend to protect etch brass sheets? Any lacquer or sprayable solution? I'm having troubles with that. Thanks for the video!
I'm wondering if you though about rotary table and milling machine combo to make your dials?
You really remind me of baremetalhw. Both of your pages are very interesting.
Hiya nice vid and well explained, what was the cnc laser you used?
When I was in the Marines, the go-to product for shining up brass was "Brasso".
I really dig this method and I’m hunting for a laser cutter that’ll cut the tape well. I know you have a pretty high power machine and my needs aren’t as heavy. Will some of that lower power (see less expensive) machines on Amazon be sufficient to cut the tape?
I have no idea what I’m watching...but I love it. P.S. I dig the music
Great video. Thanks.
8:30 is there a reason to use one method over another? Is that coaxial indicator better than a edge/center finder?
Could we get a link and specific brand name to the green tape? Looks similar to what is used for masking on powder coating.
And, I agree wholeheartedly on the cutting boards! I’ve been using them for years as a building material. HF also carries some well priced choices.
Beautiful dial. I bow to your talent.
LOVE THE PAGE. 💋👍🏻🖖🏻
Oh, one critique,... Watch your editing tracks and where your background music comes in. You blocked words several times. No biggie.
what's the drill for in the fly-cutter-assembly? "just" for having a centered hole?
Very useful! Take for my bank of ideas ...
When applying any kind of film to a surface (like tape to a piece of metal, or tint to glass, or stickers to...anything) use an old plastic card, like a credit card or ID, just make sure the edge is nice and smooth, no nicks, snags, or odd geometry. Using orbital swiping motions, press the leading edge of the adhering front down with a slight bend in the card as you go. Bam, no bubbles, perfect bond!
Muriatic acid is just Hydrochloric acid watered down to be used as a driveway cleaner. Mixing peroxide with it is a new one on me though😳..... Keep in mind Im just a recreational nerd, and dont regularly etch things, so..... I personally vote for the ferric chloride. Though that comes with its own issues, but much easier to mitigate. Also always keep some neutralizer near by, just in case (like a 2 liter bottle of basic solution (bicarb is usually a good bet, mixed into water) to quickly neutralize any incidental spills. better to have and not need than need and not have). Peroxide will out gas oxygen all on its own though, so eventually youre left with just water. And after you break the seal on the bottle, even if the lid is night and tight, itll still go flat eventually (when you get peroxide at the store for scrapes and such, get the small bottles, that way a big bottle is not wasted slowly going flat under the sink).
HCl can be neutralized with sodium bicarb. The reaction produces CO2 H2O and NaCl, or table salt, which safely locks away the chlorine with its sodium buddy. 100% safe to dump down the drain. Just make sure its all good and neutralized. Add bicarb slowly until its stops fizzing, then add a bit more and stir. when it stops making reaction bubbles turn on the tap and down it goes! If you know the concentration and volume of the acid, you can look up a calculators online that will tell you about how much bicarb is needed to fully neutralize(over shoot it just to be sure. a light base is better than a light acid on pipes....usually....). I mean, I say 'about'....the same calculators are used for titration to determine the concentration of unknown acids, itll give you the exact molar mass needed to get the job done 1:1 😉
Really fantastic videos. I'm not a machinist, but I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express once, so I know a thing or three, and you have a great channel here. I have a feeling you're on the verge of something big here Professor TOT. ( I mean that as a compliment) Have you thought about reaching out to him and doing a collaboration? He mentioned a mic stand project awhile ago in one of his "Poop Shoots" that could be a potential subject. Just spit-balling some ideas. Thanks again for the content.
This was pretty cool! Just wondering, how long was the full process? And could you use a similar process for a PCB?
Not counting the time I let the paint cure over night and the etching time itself I would guess about an hour of work? And of course this could be used for PCBs. But, another option if appearance isn't a concern might be using lacquer spray paint you ablate with a raster engrave
Where can one find this laser tape? Just a link is fine as I just need a starting point to figure out where to source it locally.
Any thoughts on using a dividing head to engrave the dials?
oh almost forgot that i was happy too your dog survived )),,,very curios dog ,,and Judy was a great person to help))
god Bless America we all Love!
What does this video have to do with America and/or god?
That's a beautiful effect in its own right @17:13
So I can do this with a decal sticker basically? Want to engrave on an ignot. So all I have to do is put the decal on one side and tape all around the areas I dont want to etch?
Etching and masking is very clever. But let down by the polishing. With a material like a marked up brass start with a DA sander (orbital) P240 grit then work your way down to P800. Then glue a piece of scotchbrite (purple) to a DA sanding disc and attach to DA. Buff with the SB until you have removed the finest of the P800 DA sanding marks. Now polish...preferably on a buffing wheel with the relevant polish, or roll your sleeves up and do it by hand. You will now be looking into a brass mirror.
This was great up to the point it went in the laser…. I haven’t got one :(
I wonder how they did it in James Watt’s day?
Need more information on this "laser tape". If I do a search all I get is laser tape measures. Would appreciate if you have a link to where this tape can be purchased.