Music Chat: Why Black Composers Matter
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- čas přidán 16. 08. 2023
- Some thoughts on the recent proliferation of recordings featuring music by Black composers (and artists), and why I feel it's important to refrain from the usual cynicism and dismissiveness that I've sometimes seen both here and elsewhere regarding their value.
- Hudba
I love Florence Price and many African American and other Black classical composers through out the world. They have been much neglected. This was a much needed talk. I would love to hear more from you about Black composers' from America and elsewhere. Thank you.
In one phrase you have encapsulated the crux of the struggle by black classical composers and musicians: the right to participate. Yours is a much needed and eloquently stated message. Thank you.
A truly great post and one of the most persuasive arguments for mutual recognition, and why it’s so important, within the arts that I have heard.
You'e like the Julia Child of music criticism. You bring open-hearted, humane, enthusiastically inclusive advocacy and enjoyment to a field with too much snobbery. It's also, I think, as with Julia, a very American perspective, in the best sense.
Thank you! Believe it or not, she really is my inspiration for much of this. I'm flattered that you would make the comparison.
The Black composer’s series box set on sony 1974-1978 is amazing..
This is one of the most sagacious things you’ve said. Thank you.
Very eloquently stated, David. I first became aware of Black composers back in the 1960's with Stokowski's recording of Dawson's Negro Folk Symphony with his American Symphony Orchestra. That led me to Still, Coleridge-Taylor and the others. I also became aware of some excellent African-American conductors of that era like Dean Dixon, Henry Lewis and James DePreist. I'm encouraged by the current resurgence of interest in this music, while also wondering why it has taken so long. I'm just an old white guy but I've lived long enough to gain some empathy for all of the varied participants in the human experience whose artistic voices deserve to be heard. Thank you for this illuminating video.
I love and appreciate your perspective, wit, and scholarship on our shared passion for classical music. Thank you 🧡 And your beard is beautiful.
This was one of your most beautiful chats, and that is saying something!
John Lewis did a recording of some wtc preludes and fugues with jazz improvisations that may not be very authentic acording to the period instrument folks but to me it's closer to the baroque idea of improvisation and the idea of musical interpretarion of the time that I always thought Bach would have love it! Hands up for him.
I love those John Lewis recordings. I have them saved on my phone at this very moment. I take those recordings with me wherever I go.
Many thanks for your thoughts! They needed to be said now more than ever.
Thank you for this talk, David Hurwitz. Quite heartfelt, as always. Ever since I heard of Florence Price,(the past couple of years or so), I've been listening to as much of her music as I could find. I love her music, and I am so very happy that it is being recorded and performed, and that you are doing all you can to bring this to our attention. Thanks again.
This was extremely well-put! I want to type out a paragraph explaining how much I as a black american appreciate this message, but it would end up being nearly an entire book. All I can say is thank you!
My pleasure! Thank you for watching.
A beautiful talk. And FWIW, I think the Price's Third Symphony is a gorgeous work. I am pretty sure that I first listened to it because Price is a black woman. But I continue to listen to it (played stunningly by the Philadelphia Orchestra) because it is really, really good.
My orchestra performed a symphony by Florence Price last year, and the conductor had to make a LOT of changes to the printed dynamics in order to achieve proper balances. As he explained at the time, the composer never had the benefit of hearing her music performed dozens of times, or to work alongside conductors to iron out the details of what works and what doesn't. But it's brilliant music and worth every bit of extra effort needed to produce a good performance.
Something I've always found interesting. We are willing to hear composers like Hasse and Porpora being rediscovered daily, even if we don't consider them as "great" as Handel and Scarlatti, because they are part of "our" musical tradition. We forgive their "flaws" and lack of "greatness" with incredible generosity, but we turn our noses up at composers from other traditions and cultures by classifying them as "ethnic". This classification justifies OUR unwillingness to listen to them. Personally I think that if someone writes a symphony in the heart of the Congo, that person is also communicating with me in a language that is mine too. If some marketing resource was used to bring me to this work, fine, let it come. After I started watching your videos, I realized that I woke up to a lot of things that I had always ignored.
Well stated. I had been thinking of the irony of the interest in rediscovering European composers widely agreed to have been second-rate.
Florence Price was a discovery to me. I'm Brazilian and I confess that I had never heard of it before. Carlos Chávez is another composer who was little more than a footnote to me. Now every time Dave talks about someone I didn't know before (or at least didn't know very well), I save a playlist of that composer here on CZcams to listen to.@@dennischiapello3879
Dave, well put and needed saying, - fast forward to more recent times from F Price or S Joplins era, - Nina Simone was denied a career in classical music due to her race and and colour, - denied even her musical degree, but thank God finally awarded an honourary degree days before her death in 2003 for her musical and cultural contributions. We could list many others! Peace, Gus.
Thank you for this, Dave! It's important to give attention to people who have been historically marginalized or flat-out neglected. And our more closed-minded fellow music-lovers should realize that like any other music, some will like it and some won't, but it's important to at the very least give it an honest listen (or two, or five) and consider the music from the standpoint of the artist and how much they worked to achieve it in spite of the hatred they faced in their lives. Florence Price is still growing on me, but I'm determined to "keep on listening" and give her a fair shake!
I agree with everything you said. I was totally unaware of these composers but will definitely check into their work. Much appreciated info. Thanks
I agree with you 100%. African American classical composers matter. A miracle that Florence Price's manuscripts survived. Let's keep her music alive.
Another extremely based take from Dave. Thanks for all of your great insights.
P.S: “based” is a common internet slang term denoting approval of an intelligent opinion. i.e. “based in fact.” It is seen as the polar opposite of “cringe.”
Thanks for the language lesson! I don't speak Internet.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Glad to be of help.
In March 2006, I was invited by my choral teacher to attend a performance of Scott Joplin's 'Treemonisha' conducted by Roger Rees at Alice Tully Hall. I found both the performance and the opera to be delightful. However, I have previously encountered Joplin's music. In contrast, Florence Price has undergone a distinct form of resurgence.
I am interested in understanding the differences between Scott Joplin's and Florence Price's revivals regarding their historical appreciation. What are your thoughts on the matter?
Well said. Thank you.
Thank you so much...as an afro-american musician living in Europe, my heritage the spiritual and especially Gospel is accepted very positively...what you said about Schostakowitsch I am D'ACCORD!!! Again thank you so much....by the way Avro Pärt is one of my favorite living composers...Love your Programms....
great talk! thank you!
I am really moved by your words. Nowadays, in this world full of haters, with the growing extreme right, I think your message is not only beautiful, but necessary.
Well said, sir!
Thanks. Great talk. Cannot agree with you more.
Exactly right!! In every respect.
Very eloquently stated. LR
Bravo. Thank you. Good on you.
Yes! Another great black composer is Samuel Coleridge-Taylor. His Twenty-Four Negro Melodies for piano is a magnificent compendium, influenced a good deal by Dvorak.
Dave, just out of curiosity, have you ever considered doing a talk about the Black Composers Series box on Sony Classical?
Jed Distler covered it very well for ClassicsToday.com. I may talk about it in future.
Thank you Dave. I agree with everything you say!
As long as American orchestras keep hiring music directors primarily from Europe, the repertoire of Dead White European Males isn't going to change. It's terrible that so many of our orchestras, both large and small, great and not-so-great, ignore music by Black, Latino and Women composers. Thank God for recordings and the dedication of the record producers who believe in this repertoire.
I blame a lot of that on academia and the recording industry. It seems they just stick with a particular canon of works in the concert hall. Or keep cranking out box sets of the Beethoven symphonies. Thinking that's all the public wants to hear. Yet you have composers such as Price or let's say Kiel who are just now getting their due. The Kiel Piano Concerto is one of the best kept secrets of the Romantic Era. However, you'd be hard pressed to find several recordings of it. Just frustrating to see all this great music ignored or rarely recorded
@@Ziad3195 Thank you for asking. I chose this profile picture as a rallying cry against censorship. A preservation of history, art, music and culture. The image is actually a merging of the Union, Confederate Battle and Gadsden flags. The rattlesnake represented the 13 American Colonies that would strike back if provoked by the king. The phrase "don't tread on me" as a statement against the prohibition of free trade or exchange of ideas. And with the recent backlash over Confederate monuments, I found this picture fitting for my profile. If we get rid of everything we disagree with, then there will be no record of who we were or compass for where we are going. Don't forget they censored the music of Shostakovich in Russia. Madame Bovary was banned in Paris. Btw, the first flag flown by the CSA in the early days of the Civil War was actually the Bonnie Blue. The Bonnie Blue was first unfurled when settlers declared their independence from Spanish rule- in what is now modern day Baton Rouge. This event was very significant for Southerners. Hence the saying Southern Rights, Hurrah.
Beautifully articulate and quite illuminating, especially with your setting the stage, as it were, with the story of your sister's experience at Anne Frank's house.
A suggestion for Ripe For Reissue or even Greatest Ever: Treemonisha by Joplin, a wonderful opera. It has everything you mention. Irresistible once you’ve heard it. And more immediately accessible than almost any opera for people that shy away from the genre.
Thank you for contributing your point of view on the subject - a talk that is more than only worth listening to!
Yep. Thanks for surfacing music from people we aren't already familiar with.
Excellent talk. One other thing is that black composers likely often felt pressured to modulate their engagement with their particular musical tradition. Sometimes this was by moderating its influence and other times overemphasizing it beyond their natural inclination. European and other American composers probably had more freedom in engaging with their folk traditions in their works with less risk of being seen as unserious (both because of dismissive attitudes towards African American music along with its association with american popular music from the 19th century on). That said, some were able to navigate these trecherous waters and create some incredible music.
Thanks!
Thank you very much!
Thank you, Dave, for this candid talk about African-American composers. We should celebrate great music, because it's great music. No matter who wrote it.
Wonderful video!
This is one of your great talks David Hurwitz. I discoverend recently Florende Price. She wrote in my opinion very beautiful chamber music, a magnificent pianoquintet and a pianosonate. Have certainly to listen to her string quintets. Thanks !
SORRY I meant string quartets.
Can you do a video of Asian composers or at least Japanese composers? Many Asians play or listen to classical music but there are not many Asian composers who are well known. I would like to hear some Asian composers but don't know where to start.
I've done several--Takemitsu, Yoshimatsu, Sugata, and Ifukube, for example. They represent a wide range of styles for you to sample.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Ok, I will check those composers out.
I agree 100 per cent with your apreciation. I supose that is the reason why I keep collecting albums in witch works by Klein, Krasa, Ullmann, Haas, etc. are played. They created, worked, brought out Art and Light out of the most challenging and desperate situations. Their commitment with Music and humanity must be never forgotten. Maybe also that is why Shostakovitch's music touches me so profoundly.
Thank you.
I’d kill to see an Adolphus Hailstork piece in person. Wonderful composer.
I heard Florance Price on the radio without knowing who she was and it was love at first hearing. Price doesn't need pc pleading, she's great period. The others you mention are also deserving of consideration. Good talk.
A chat full of wisdom.
Bravo! Exactly right! Thank you for taking a stand on this.
More than slightly disturbed by one or two comments on here…
Look, most of the music most people listen to is mediated African music- it has been a remarkable phenomenon.
Clinging to the idea that “yeah but “they” can’t do classical music” (presumably a sort of Euro enclave) is rather disturbing to me.
It’s obvious what’s going on here, so thanks Dave :-)
Tell me about it! I rather expected it, though. Thank God for moderated chats and delete buttons.
Indeed! Thinking re this I went back to your Ellington reviews. The JoAnn Falletta Naxos disc has only had 1.7 K views, and this is a while back. The minute you review more or less unnecessary Beethoven piano concerto cycles the views go up to 10k or so in a couple of weeks! Empirical research doesn’t always make you feel good, I guess! @@DavesClassicalGuide
Thanks for this Dave. Now, I'm just waiting for the inevitable tone-deaf goofball who's unironically going to write something cringe like "All Composers Matter."
That's what the "delete" button is for!
@@DavesClassicalGuide Haha. It's your boat, captain.
In the UK black composers (and musicians) are promoted by virtue of the prevailing woke culture. Whether their work is of merit is in most cases questionable
Perhaps, but whether the work is of merit would be just as much of an issue with anyone for any reason, so there's no harm in letting black composers have a turn. The whole argument based on some theoretical notion of "merit" is bullshit, frankly, because 99% of all new stuff will turn out to have little or none, and none of the people claiming to know what has merit are qualified to opine.
Yes I agree that a lot of new music lacks 'merit'. That is why as I am re-building my classical music CD collection I value your perceptions and years of experience. Thank you @@DavesClassicalGuide
Bullseye!
But how much of the appreciation for the works is coming as a consequence of the quality of the music, vs sympathy for the composer? I'm remembering the video on "immoral" composers and how the morality of their personal lives has little to no effect on your opinion regarding their music?
He addressed that right at the beginning of the video. Within the first minute.
I suppose that's a matter that individual listeners can only decide for themselves.
Very interesting comment. I’m not sure that the personal or political morality of composers can be treated in the same way of what sort of “categorical” person they are. Where there’s reasonable suspicion (and it is reasonable) that their music doesn’t get listened to because of who they are (categorically) there’s a very good case for making an effort to listen to it. Unless you’re repulsed by the categories of course. Some of it we might judge to be overlooked, some of it might not be more thank a once or twice over listen.
Another example, I recall a bit of snottiness about Tchaikovsky and Poulenc, presumably because of the sexuality issues, and thankfully this has gone away. But there was a sense that they were “less important” than the “big guys” when I was younger. What an error…