Why KOTOR 2 is Star Wars Criticism Done Well
Vložit
- čas přidán 5. 07. 2018
- Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords is one of the most introspective looks into the Star Wars universe. Written by gaming veteran Chris Avellone, KOTOR 2's development process was fueled by hatred but used to channel creativity in an critical but fair fashion. Something it taught me over a decade after its release.
Core Ideas is a channel dedicated to video essays detailing what makes your favorite media work. From Bo Burnham to Star Wars, no topic is off limits.
Patreon: / coreideas
Core Ideas Twitter: / coreideasyt
Intro by: / leonardodasidci
KOTOR II Footage by: Papito Quinn. (I forgot to put this in the credits.)
#StarWars #KOTOR2 #VideoEssay - Hry
"To be united by hatred is a fragile alliance, at best." -Kreia
Then proceeds to get her ass kicked 🤣🤣
@@django_freeman27 kicked and...violated
KotoR 2 also allows you to hold an opposing view to Kreia. You can play a goody two-shoes Jedi and the game doesn't have all your choices end up with horrible consequences just because the writers disagree with that view. If you play as a pure light Jedi, most of your choices will still have good results, with people being saved from slavery, planets being rebuilt, criminals being taken down, just rulers creating stable safe nations, etc.
That in itself shows that Kreia's own views aren't perfect and should be challenged.
This. So much this
Her perspective was galactic and for millennia.
Yes, slavery would have been rid from one planet. An ecology saved here and there.
But those things are only a plot twist, point and counter point to the force.
What good is it to free a slave when it's grandchild holds the whip over another?
What good is it to save a world from death when in a few millennia that planet plunges the systems around it into war?
That was what Kreia was striking out against. The perverse nature of the force undewly pushing people down a path for no other appearent reason other than a good story.
#KreiaDidNothingWrong :P
it should be the stories guide to challenge your beliefs and to truly see how much you believe in them. only then can you learn who/what you truly believe
More than that! You can't side with Kreia even if you were a dark side Jedi. While the game uses her to explore the universe and pays tributes to her ideas but it doesn't pretend like her solution is actually good. In fact no matter what she will be in the extremist in the games narrative.
Kreia is definitely an extremist, but that's because she ends up trying to make the galaxy into one not unlike our own. She wants the death of what is essentially space magic, to dumb it down. She wants organic life in all its forms to be just like it is in our real world, with no greater force controlling our fates from outside us.
And I think that's what makes it an even more brilliantly written story. Even though we know Kreia's goal is essentially just to make the world like our own, we also disagree with her because we think the Force is awesome, just like everyone else in the story does, basically. Kreia hates that the Force has control over her and the rest of the galaxy, but she's the only one who has ever seen the Force in that way, including the audience.
That's the real challenge that the game puts towards Star Wars as a whole. Avellone and his team did such a great job of writing this story, I just really love it.
Man, this is so important: "KOTOR 2 doesn't scream its criticism, nor does it tell you that you are at fault for enjoying it", people really need to understand the distinction between constructive criticism and drawing lines in the sand. Like you said, thinking through the flaws should unite people, not divide them. Keep up the great work man!
Daryl Talks Games Exactly! I think that was something I seriously wanted to emphasize. Criticism is perfectly fine but as long as we understand and frame it as a way to make a better product, we will all win.
I'm so happy you enjoyed it.
"people really need to understand the distinction between constructive criticism and drawing lines in the sand."
I don't like sand.
Some lines should be drawn however, even though we may dislike the idea of that. Unification is not always good.
@@DBArtsCreators there are always exceptions...even to this statement.
+Wrong/Right
No, there is no exception to my statement. Such is an impossibility, due to my statement not being all-encompassing from the outset.
Kreia really is one of the best female characters in gaming.
And damn, Sarah Kestelman is SO good at playing her.
Oh, I never knew about her! That's fascinating to know that Palpatine was first portrayed by a woman :P
You can do a LOT right in her eyes. I think the only context in which you can't please her is with the beggar on Nar Shaddaa, which is bullshit, I agree.
Yes but only after she's scolded you first.
If Disney were smart, they would adapt this series into live action and have her reprise her role
@Mac-Attack it's how you roleplay. If you stand your ground about what you do despite her complaints, then good on you, you're fighting for your beliefs.
If you listen to her, she respects you more even if you don't necessarily follow her advice. It means you're getting a viewpoint on all angles before making a snap judgement.
She is a teacher, so if you counter argue her but refuse to listen, she will be pissed but you don't need to please everyone in life.
KOTOR II should be how the Star Wars movie franchise gets rebooted... Different era, different themes and getting rid of the marriage to the Skywalker family/rebellion would be a breath of fresh air.
After how the sequel trilogy went, I'm actually relieved that Disney didn't start with the Kotor storyline because they were new to Star Wars and the mistakes they made with the Sequel trilogy taught them how they should properly write a Star Wars story in the future.
Imagine what Kotor would've been like with JJ Abrams and Rian Johnson directing it?! 😳😬
@@ahsoka5216 Yikes, that would be a nightmare, I shudder to think what *they* would have done with it.
But Star Wars was always about love and family.
I think that the fans (including me) were disgusted about how Luke was portrayed in The Last Jedi is simply because he was a previously established character. He was optimistic and hopeful in the original trilogy and in every Expanded Universe stories. Making him the opposite of who he was the next time we see him is like when you watch a series and the main character makes an about-turn from one episode to the next. Even if several years passed between episode 6 and 7-8, there was no build up, no explanation, no warning about this change. That's why it feels unacceptable and a slap to the face. If we had seen another Jedi master in The Last Jedi having a personality like this instead of Luke, someone who we've never heard of before, it would have been fine. Because we could have accepted him as he is.
Szőke Dani I'm in full agreement with you. While there are concepts about the change that were interesting (mostly because I'm a KOTOR II fanboy), the execution fell flat. The difference in thought process, regardless of canonical time, was too jarring.
KOTOR II is one of my favourites, too. After I made that comment, I was thinking more about this, and I realised that Luke in the flashback scene, where he wanted to kill Ben because he saw a threat in him, it reminds me how in KOTOR II the Jedi Council exiled Meetra Surik. They didn't try to understand what happened to her or to help her somehow... they were afraid of what she might do to them so they cast her out. Luke wanted to do something similar, but more drastic.
Szőke Dani It reminded me of KotOR comics, of padawan masacre on Taris. The Jedi Masters of local Jedi Academy had vision that someone of their padawans will be in future terrible Dark Lord of the Sith and will cause many deaths and destruction throughout the galaxy etc. (Similar to Luke.) So they killed them on their knighting ceremony, but one came late and ran away. They accused him of falling to the dark side and killing his fellow students and even believing he is that foretold Dark Lord they hunted him to kill him too.
Really interesting and fun read with atypical protagonist. (For SW)
Yeah, I read that story, too. And you're right, I didn't think of this.
Tbh the only problem that I have with the new Star Wars is that they're just the old ones, but with modern bling and representation.
Oh, Luke is now jaded and doesn't believe in the Jedi anymore?
Obi-Wan, is that you?
It's the exact same stuff. When Star Wars did it, it was drawing on classics from the past to tell something new.
When the new Star Wars did it, it was something that had been done countless times already, usually better and with less incongruences.
So happy to see another video from you man. Fantastic work.
Writing on Games Thanks, Hamish! I'm seriously happy that you were able to watch and enjoy it.
"To be united by hatred is a... fragile alliance at best."
Hate does not need to always be unifying. Dividing is also important, in its own way.
I guess, sometimes the past really does need to die.
Just make sure you don't screw up how you do it though.
That is key - knowing when to unify, when to divide. When to love and when to hate. What to build, and what to destroy. And when perhaps nothing is required at all beyond doing the same as before.
Then you have to pull it off well.
"When perhaps nothing is required"... is that *_apathy_* I hear?!
APATHY IS DEATH
It comes down to the idea that creating a star wars movie to critique the very simple premise that star wars originally was based on is a very difficult task and the last Jedi really failed at doing so. To turn beloved characters in on their head like they did with Luke was the wrong move and if they really wanted to create a critique movie, they should have waited for later movies to do so when all the original characters are long gone. That way its essentially a blank slate for them to work with and not as risky of a move.
Great video though. Aboslutely agree Kotor 2 was a great criticism of the star wars universe and I believe one of the reasons this was so was because it was set so far away from the original movies, and didn't do anything to really change the characters we love from Kotor 1.
DashunicornII I think you've nailed it. KOTOR II left its iconic character(s) intact and simply added questions to things they had done. The Last Jedi, for many, ruined Luke Skywalker, Snoke and others for seemingly little reason.
People can forgive a bad story but they can't forgive bad or ruined characters.
Thanks! That's quite correct. Also really glad you referenced that Philosophy of Kreia Video.
DashunicornII Oh for sure, I'm a big fan of it. The creator and I have started talking recently.
That's awesome man. Hope you guys keep it up with the great videos.
It wasnt critique, it was propaganda.
I felt that the first KOTOR was good at creating some ambiguity with the plot twist. You have every reason to feel like the Jedi Knights wronged you, but at the same time, maybe they gave you mercy. It's all a matter of how you personally experience that. Empire Strikes Back could be considered a deconstruction that was part of what tested Luke Skywalker as well.
With Kotor 2 the twist also wasn't hidden like in Kotor 1. Kriea was brutally honest in that she fell and hasn't changed or sought out another answer. But Atris her after image is going through similar tests but is bottling up what's happening.
Omg thank you. KOTOR II is still one of my favorite takes on the star wars universe and imo is the peak of reativity and perspective in the franchise.
Kotor2 was a loving deconstruction of starwars. It took things apart yes but it showed in many ways why these parts existed and why these things matter then puts a new spin on them and places them back into the story so that it hovers in your mind as you examine the world around you.
The last Jedi was a Nihilistic deconstruction of starwars. Its like a child who didn't like starwars threw the character to the ground and shattered them just so they laugh at you.
Even nihilists are better at deconstructing than tlj
But its not a Nihilistic deconstruction,Luke is portrayed in the wrong, the major theme of the film wasn't to Let the past Die,but rather that failure is the greatest teacher, we learn from our failure we learn form our mistakes,hELL HE CAME BACK AT THE END OF THE FILM AS THE IDEAL VERSION OF THE JEDI AND SAVED THE REBELS, at that moment he said he wouldn't be the lat jedi meaning that his legacy would I've on
Woo! KOTOR video! Glad to see someone notice the striking similarities (and difference in execution/success) between KOTOR II and TLJ.
Love your overt positivity! Such a breath of fresh air to hear. Keep doing what you do. Awesome work!
MisterA I wouldn't be surprised if KOTOR II was a main inspiration on TLJ!
Aww, thank you! Why be overtly negative for no reason? Might as well try and bring happiness to people's days.
I'm a fan of both personally.
While I have a preference for showing love and appreciation for that which people enjoy and/or are fans of (see @grantthethief on twitter as the epitome of well-mannered highly expressive praise for things such as shounen and robot anime, super sentai, Kaiju movies, and martial arts movies or ex-blogger extraordinaire, ghostlightning from We Remember Love on primarily shows like Macross and the Gundam franchise, but also a few other anime outside of the robot and sci-fi genres).
I also can't deny the catharsis I get from others demonstrating well-articulated hate and criticism for the things they are disappointed or frustrated by (though in many cases it is done as a form of entertainment in and of itself and at least obvious to me that it is to be interpreted as hyperbole a lot of the time - which I am a big fan of as well; see ANGN, RazorFist, and Endless Jess (though he is someone expressive in both areas)). And I wouldn't say it's (always) done for no reason. It is, after all, quite fun to turn rage into well-spoken words (in a similar sense to Kreia, I suppose lol).
But yes, I do think we could do more with the former and less of the latter.
Right?! I wanted to like TLJ but it kept tripping over itself, even contradicting its own themes at time. I think TLJs biggest flaw is that it was a mainline movie; at the end of the day I'm sure Rian Johnson wasn't allowed to deviate from key points (Rei rejecting Kilo's proposition, Kilo going full tweeny, angsty brat, Luke's death, etc) which imo lead to a weaker narrative and wishywashy theming.
I have spent hours, hours with my friends making better TLJ movies that hit all the plot points, however told a better story.
All I can do is marvel at Kotor II. I play the game over and over. Originally making my own decisions. Then asking "but what if I was someone diffrent?"
Maybe the problem was TLJ had to be told in a linear plot driven story. I know the choices I would have made for the characters in the movie to be "more true" to their character than not. Perhaps that is the fault of the medium?
@@Giganfan2k1 I think the biggest enemy of TLJ was the Disney machine, needing to hit certain criteria for mass market appeal and whatnot
A story like this should be on the big screen Kotor and kotor 2 made into a live action movie.
I'm hoping that's what the Game of Thrones showrunners have been hired on to do by Disney.
I have to completely disagree. Games like these had several pathways to explore and re-explore and dive into. That gets taken away with movies. If anything, let them be remastered.
as long as its not made by trash disney.
Remastered would be a better idea. Lucasfilm's current story group can't be trusted with making anything Star Wars, in my opinion. Their sequels are nowhere near what they could have been, their disrespect to the fanbase of the EU, or even just fans that disagree with their direction is horrendous. The only project that is coming out that I have any hope for is the Clone Wars final episodes, as these are being produced by a real Star Wars Fan, Dave Filoni, and with the intention of returning to a safe property, one they already know will sell well, so they wont try anything stupid. The problem with a KOTOR movie or series is, as stated before, the problem of making a linear story of a game with none linear choice elements, as well as how any changes to the story or characters could potentially alienate the fanbase of the original property. The funny thing is that KOTOR itself was born of this same concern for the original films and books, as the fact that they placed their series 3000 years before the films guaranteed that they could build on the settings and themes, without disrupting or altering the events or characters we were familiar with, something Disney should have considered before making any new films.
Maybe a TV show, a movie would fuck it up.
I've always wanted to see Chris Avellone's vision of the True Sith. Sadly, thanks to BioWare, that awful Revan novel, and SWTOR that will never happen.
Obsidian can’t ever finish a game.
@@AlfredFJones1776 An unfinished KOTOR 2 still outclasses a fully finished and fleshed out SWTOR
Don’t blame it on Swtor, blame it on Lucas Arts cancelling Kotor 3. That’s the reason swtor happened. And furthermore, we wouldn’t have Kotor at all without BioWare.
Feelings are tools. Hate, anger, vitrol, love, passion, apathy... all are just words. All are different states that make up your whole.
I call them tools because you can use love to destroy. Hate to create. Neither is wholey positive or negative. It's what you do with those emotions that time judges you.
I think you misunderstand the intimate relation between love and hate. All hate is built off of a foundation of love. No one hates arbitrarily. They hate because something has contradicted their love. It is the hate, born of a love, that destroys. Love can't be used as the destroyer.
And be sure not to conflate positive/negative with good/bad. Love and hate are in fact positive and negative respectively, but that doesn't qualify them as necessarily good or evil.
@@the13nthpartyboy Love can be destructive.When you love something or someone without realizing their needs or what they want,or when you love something without realizing that it is harmful to you. When you love someone unconditionally no matter how horrible they are to you/others or when you love and continuously do something that is harmful or dangerous to yourself or the others around you. Love can in fact destroy many things and sometimes that is not really a bad thing.
That is obsession then.
Kotor 2 is MUCH better than episodes 7 & 8
Those two games need not be lumped in the same sentence as those two giant pieces of shit. For all the shit the prequels get, they were much better movies than the soulless movies that came after it. All 3 of them were a mess, but they had some interesting ideas and redeeming aspects in them while TFA and TLJ have 0. Star Wars now is just pure nostalgia pandering and nothing but a corporate product made to sell the toys. They need to let it die because it already is pretty much dead at this point.
Kotor is better than any star wars film, period.
The film universe is pretty overrated tbh, the best star wars content is in videogames or comics.
@@josefrancisco4178
The prequels did have an interesting universe. The prequels themselves could've been a lot better.
It's also so much better than the prequels? So? Things don't always need to be compared.
@@zlodrim9284 dude these films are great The last jedi wasn't saying let the past die it was saying learn from your failures and learn from your mistakes,Luke came back at the end of the film and saved the rebels,he even stated that he will not be the last jedi
I still think disney should take the story FAR into the future (like 1000 ABY) and leave what's already established behind and stay the way things are; start their own complete mess anew without needing to touch on any old characters and respect the lore. Both Kotor(s) and Old Republic are prime example starwars is more than just a specific era, done well enough it doesnt matter we see little to nothing about Luke, Han and Leia; Personally the original movies are "space opera", the new movies are just weekend action movies
The ending music gave me shivers. So many memories of KoTOR 1 and 2. Hours and hours. Playthru after playthru.
Ever since watching your videos on the Spiderman train scene and Halo Reach's characters, I've been looking forward for the next time you would release a video, because I knew you would have something interesting and insightful to say and that, even if it was said by someone else (or lightly touched up by them), more detail could always be brought up. I will definitely be patiently looking forward to the next video, whenever that will be.
This was also really cool to listen to, as I have never played KOTOR 2, and now I feel like it would be a really cool and fulfilling experience due to how you laid out main story beats without spoiling anything, so thanks for that! It's been a while since I have played anything that considered the player to be more than a simple child that wants only action in a video game.
I thank you so much for being supportive of my work. From the bottom of my heart, you have no idea how much comments like these mean to me. I hope that this video has shown you why this game is worth your time. If you decide to pick it up, get the Restored Content Mod installed. If you have any questions about it, feel free to hit me up on Twitter!
This was the first video of yours that I've ever watched and wow, I thought this was absolutely fantastic man! The editing was great, and most importantly for me the writing was really tight and well-focused. It was to-the-point, which is something I think so many similar videos lack. Enjoyed it immensely - just subscribed ❤️
RevanTheConqueror Thank you so much! I'm glad you decided to follow my work and I hope you find enjoyment in my previous and future topics!
Very well made video. The points you made were profound. Thanks for the video. Very clever use of the kotor 2 footage too. You're welcome.
Papito Qinn Very much appreciated, I worked hard to get my point across.
No, thank you. I'm sorry I forgot to list the footage in the credits, I hope the description was enough.
Core Ideas Don't worry about it, it's cool. Like I told 100% Star Wars: A credit is very much appreciated, but not necessary.
Papito Qinn IMO, it's always necessary. I just tend to be forgetful during the editing process.
Thank you for the time you put into those clips. They're absolutely wonderful.
That was...magisterial, avoiding all the trollish aspects of criticism for the sake of a constructive discussion. Fantastic work!
That conclusion though. Great writing.
This is the first video of yours that I have seen, and I must say that I'm impressed. I will definitely be coming back!
Eamon Bass Thank you! Glad to have left a lasting impression.
The wait was worth it.
I'm so glad you chose 2 instead of the original as a topic to make a video on.
Great job as always man.
Dio_TR I'm so glad you enjoyed it! Trust me, I've loved KOTOR II since I first played it in 2004. I will love it till the day I die.
I hope the next one won't take as long!
I have to agree, KOTOR 2 is one of my all time favourites too. I like to use it to debate with fan boys about the flaws of the Gray Jedi. And they really hate when I do that, because they like you can still be good, while doing evil things....they want to have their cake and eat it too.
Gray jedi is nothing more than fan fiction that originated with RPG fans. Like you said, they want their cake and eat it too. SW doesn't work like that.
+SkintSniper262. I agree. It's like when people who say that Ahsoka is a gray Jedi, and the only reason they say this is she is no longer apart of the Jedi order. But in reality she is good, pure of heart and spirit. She is light, not gray....she is just not apart of the order. She has followed her own path into the light, because she cares for other people besides herself and isn't tied to the Jedi order. The failing of the Jedi, is the order is run like a cult, dogmatic instead of questioning what they believe. Jedi are not allowed to have personal attachments because the order must come first, even though personal attachments root one to light. So when a Jedi turns away from the order and has no one to root them to the light, they fall into darkness. Anakin fell into the darkness because of his lust for power, and that he truly believed the Jedi were evil when Master Windu tried to murder Palpatine. When Windu broke the code and tried to murder the chancellor, Anakin completely lost faith in the way of the Jedi.
Preciously. The PT jedi are a lot more mechanical than spiritual. You could even say they became "corrupt" compared to centuries past jedi. They lost their way of the order.
+Skinsniper262. Yeah, and that was Lucas's intention from the start. Both Ben and Yoda wanted Luke do defeat his father, the same as the Emperor....but Luke did what he felt was right.
Right but "gray jedi" if that's what you want to call it is what the star wars universe requires. The dark side of the force only exists to balance out the light. As we've seen through the existence of the galaxy as the light grows in numbers an strength soon a dark and destructive power will follow. The dark and destructive being wreaks havoc upon the followers of the light only to be squelched by a some prophecy from the light. With no evil force in play the followers of the light again begin to grow and the cycle continues.
Often times what makes me want to do a video is spite. This leads me to feeling guilty or petty because it always felt like I should've had a more noble motivator. This video makes me feel better about that because at the end of the day it shouldn't matter what motivates you to create great art as it should simply be seen as fuel for the flames of creativity and as the flame is itself is more important than the fuel.
Shintai Exactly! It's not what the emotion was; it's what it comes out on the other side. It unites under mutual understanding rather than potentially dividing through intensity.
"The Flame is more important than the Fuel." Very nice. It kind of echoes one of Kyle Katarn's most important lessons: "Force powers are neither light or dark; it's how you use them."
It also echoes one of my favorite converstions from the Legends novels between Luke and Vergere.
The funny thing is that based on what George said about what *he* had planned for the sequels, actor interviews where they let key words slip, and paying very, very close attention to the wording and what's happened in the previous 6movies, a CZcamsr named Thor Skywalker theorized that Luke would have been a kreia like charactor in ep7-9. and I'm sold on that theory.
basically the theory says that the Force is the main villain of star wars. Specifically the so called 'whills' of the Force. but rather than what Rian did with the sad old man saying the Jedi should end and hiding from his failures, George would've had Luke be doing something like Kreia and possibly trying to destroy the Force or the Whills behind the Force. And based on Mark saying George was going to kill Luke in 9, Luke might have succeeded at the cost of his life. Freeing the galaxy from the Whills whom Thor Skywalker noted as being more akin to parasites upon the Force rather than anything good. Which he got from Georges explanation that the Whills "fed on the Force" and "used Jedi like vehicles"
George also planned to ultimately call the star wars saga 'Stae Wars: Journal of the Whills' which Thor Skywalker took to mean that the underlying story of star wars was not so much about the skywalkers destroying the Sith, or even the fall and redemption of Anakin, but about the fall of the whills.
So KOTOR 2 might have touched upon the true, underlying nature of star wars by accident over a decade ahead of schedule lmao
Yes, it would appear that I'm going to stay subbed.Edit: Whoooa. Where have you been my account's whole life?
I still wish Kreia would've succeeded, the force needs to die
Or culminate, if you think about it. If the Force really does manipulate everyone and everything, wouldn't its' death be essentially suicide?
@TheRealBrentmobile Kreia doesn't hide the fact that she's afraid of not being in control of her own agency. She explicitly says it. That's why she hates the force.
The force is an in story representation of narrative. Its an acknowledgment that Star Wars is first and foremost a story that needs to be cathartic.
ThisisKyle it did with TLJ.
Very well said, dude. Glad I found your channel. :)
Thank you! Glad you enjoyed it!
@@CoreIdeas Being pretty wrecked over what they did with Star Wars in the movies, I've been checking out the old video games and enjoying some time with a glass of wine and just watching the cutscenes. The stories of games like Jedi Outcast and Jedi Knight *nail* the potential Star Wars has and have been a lot of fun revisiting.
Think you'd ever want to do a tribute to those and show how that and other things in the now LEGENDS line captured what Star Wars has the potential to be better than the movies have, who have only retread over the original trilogy?
Not that.. you take requests. I just want to see a video essay, that I can show to others, that best explains the wide array of adventures and stories that can take place.
That instead of moving the camera around a galaxy sized world to see other adventures and heroes, the movies think all the originals need to be changed and destroyed or continually prequeled, before we can see what else the galaxy has to offer... which has not been a good experience.
If you're still reading, I have this idea where the movies think that Star Wars is X-Men. So that they feel the original heroes were special chosen ones, and therefore all adventures need to take place with them. All things that happen have to be connected to them.
Instead, the "X-Men" of that universe are the occupations one can have. It's not a Han Solo or Boba Fett movie we want, w want a Smugglers and Bounty Hunters movie in that sci-fi setting. The "X-Men" of Star Wars isn't Han and all the things that result from that. The "X-Men" of Star Wars is that anyone can be a smuggler and there's always adventures that come with that.
Feel free to steal anything I said.. just want that out in the discussion for people to think about while Disney is working on a Obi-Wan prequel or an animated Yoda prequel. :P
All this technicality...
Kotor1 and 2 were both sick ass games.
I'm still playing to this day.
Finished KotOR yesterday, bought KotOR 2 today. I can’t wait! Can’t believe I missed out on these gems!
Hatred is negative energy, but it is not “bad.” Negative energy acts as a catalyst for positive growth. I would only deem hatred as “bad” if it controls you.
I followed the link to the 2 hour long video and while the first 20 minutes intrigued me, he then proceeded to connect virtually everything in the Star Wars universe to Kreia's views. I like your video much better. You bring your point across much more succinctly.
On that point though, while I agree that Anger can be the much needed catalyst to start working on a creative project, I think that Hatred is what ultimately dooms it to fall short of becoming anything meaningful and should not be conflated with Anger. Furthermore, I am not convinced either of these emotions played a great role in the creation of Kotor 2's story. It was something much more important. Courage. The Courage to question The Divine, God, The Status Quo and be sceptical of it.
Awesome video but just a little nitpick at 5:49, that trailer is called Betrayed rather than Eternal xD
Critique is definitely not easier to do than it is to praise lmao. That's why we get so many people praising/hyping a game and so many people insulting/cursing the game.
The idea that critique is "negative" is also ridiculous. If someone buys a car that they like, then someone points out that the brakes don't work, then that car crashes... was it negative to point out the flaw?
Critique isn't positive or negative. It's neutral. It is what it is. It can be used to make a positive change or a negative one.
I wish this story was given the time to finish and that well get a movie or a TV show based on these 2 games. Some of the best starwars stories out there and they dont have to be fancy or creative to add or take anything out for them to be amazing
Thank you for making this video. It is perfect.
You're welcome!
Any idea on how to get this game to work on windows 10?
NWN and Alpha Protocol were both great games. So is KOTOR 2. While I prefer the tone and atmosphere of the first game, I have come to appreciate KOTOR 2 now that I'm older. I disliked it as a kid, but it's a far deeper game than the first and definitely has a more compelling story with more to dissect and examine. That doesn't automatically make it a *better* game, since not everyone wants that, but if depth is what you're looking for KOTOR 2 has it in spades.
This needs more views.
Great video!
LostCourage Thank you!
1) Criticism isn't the same as deconstruction. KotOR 2 is a deconstruction, not criticism.
2) While I will always maintain that KotOR 2 isn't nearly as good as the original game (even with the TSLRCM), I do like it and highly applaud it for the ambitious philosophies
I enjoyed TLJ quite a bit exactly because it borrowed some things from KOTOR 2, which is my favourite video game sans Planescape:Torment. Yes, it has it's *Major* flaws, but damn it, did I enjoy having a Kreya-ish character on screen in old Luke Skywalker. Maybe that's because I wasn't as invested in Luke as most Star Wars fans, since I'm not the biggest fan of the original trilogy(please don't hit me) and, feeling far more connected to Revan and Exile(as both KOTORs are THE reason why I love Star Wars), thought he was a boring cliche of a hero. Rey training with someone as bitter about the Force as old Luke was nice, her connecting to the Dark Side in an incredibly smart way with the reflections was really cool, the whole "the past doesn't make the future" motive is a COMPLETELY new one for Star Wars, where everything was built on whatever was happening prior and almost everyone was related to someone or some event that's happened before(obviously that's rich coming from Ben Solo, but nevertheless). And I've genuinely enjoyed the twist of Rey not being related to anyone, I thought that was dope. Also, Luke had easily the most badass death in the entire Star Wars franchise IMO.
Obviously, the whole capitalism and "protecting the things we love" shit was nonsensical, but TLJ is much more of a mixed bag then it is just bad as most people seem to view it.
Thank you for this video!!!
I liked your summary of the four critical views of the fours as represented by the Exile, Kreia, Nihilus and Sion, but I feel you kinda flunked the description of Sion. In my humble opinion, I feel like it should have been something to the effect of:
"One that consciously decided to remove herself from it,
one who has been stripped of it,
one who was consumed by it,
and one who is entirely defined by it and dependent upon it."
Chris Avellone loves delving into the deep crevices of a story even if it's only aspirationally.
Whoops! Sorry for late feedback! Anyway I really enjoyed the video and only have minor feedback. First you could maybe use a more clickable title like a question or contradiction. This isn’t exactly clickbait but it interests others in your video. I would suggest the title to be “How KOROR II criticizes Star Wars through Hatred.” And I would change the thumbnail to say “Critisism through Hatred” with a KOTOR background. Your current thumbnail is beautiful but it doesn’t really get the message of the video essay across. other than that try changing music several times throughout the essay for different sections. And finally when proving a very strong point you can cut the music entirely for impact. These are all small nitpicks because and I struggle greatly with all of these on my channel. Overall I loved the video. This is the very little criticism I can give it.
I just wanted to say thanks for not being the video I thought this was going to be. This seemed to serve a greater purpose to the discourse, and I can value that
Appreciate it!
I think he meant to say "scoundrels" instead of scavengers when he shows chewie and han in the cantina. They were smugglers, and IIRC Han was known to traffic "spice" all over the place.
What did you do on kotor 1 and 2 dark side or light or one light and dark on an other
KOTOR 1: Exclusively Light Side
KOTOR 2: It depends; I normally go Light Side but with enough Dark Side choices to make the morality much grayer. To fit the theme of the game.
Core Ideas i go dark side male on 1 light side male female light side sometimes but as you i make dark side choice a couple times but light mostly
I don't think its hatred specifically, but instead dissatisfaction of underdeveloped conceptions that broils overtime into anger that we see and call hatred when in reality it isn't. This is how I feel with a lot of stories, games, and such however its not specifically hatred that I recognize but dissatisfaction with the current production which of course is what makes Kotor 2 brilliant.
Kotor 2 is like the Watchmen comic to the starwars universe
Your a beautiful man for making this video, thank you.maybe someday all of Star Wars fans will get to experience this masterpiece
Positivity in examining a work can be beneficial, but there are times where you need to go negative in order to facilitate improvement.
Hey! What a pleasant surprise!
ItsDmaster I can say the same to you!
Obsidian gives me river of tears , so strong
Brilliant! Quite thoughtful
Thank you!
Great video! For me Luke in The Last Jedi should have been like Kreia in KOTOR II. But, i still like The Last Jedi and Luke in the movie;
Kotor 1 for the Player
Kotor 2 For the smart Player.
Do I like both games? Of course.
I have to agree
same here
I play them to hear HK-47 talk.
Swtor not so much.
You lot are so smart.
What really killed TLJ is not Luke's philosophy, but rather his reasonings for wanting to go into exile. Him wanting to kill his nephew is what destroyed the movie for most fans because it is so off from the character who was always known as this morally good person who willingly sacrificed himself so his father could be redeemed even though Luke has only seen Darth Vader as a person full of hatred.
They could've made Luke a Revan type of character in TLJ where he went into hiding because he sensed a bigger conflict coming and was preparing for it.
Or they could've had it that Luke found out that Kylo Ren was planning on destroying the temple and after failing to redeem him, then Luke tries to kill him. There's just so many alternatives that could've been used, but weren't.
Darth Marr: Whole my life I have dismissed Jedi code, but in the end I found one truth in it: "There is no Death, there is only the Force.... and IT HAS A PLAN."
He also explained you can strugle and swim against the current or flow with it, and that both paths are equally valid, but that there river is still there and you have a choice.
Even in Legends HE is the only Sith who ever became truly one with the Force. Others did not. He died as self sacrifice to stop Valkorion, accepting death as inevitable conclusion of life, and dying for every living beeing in the galaxy, most prominently for all citizens of Sith empire which he considered the best way to go on.
"My flesh was destroyed, but not my reason for being."
I would say... Bioware still did amazing job in the end with the ToR too.
now please... compared this marvellous deep character who actually explains himself so we understand to what Disney thrown at us with TLJ.
(Where story sucks from first minute... the beggining should look like Ota Kings Tie Fighter czcams.com/video/PN_CP4SuoTU/video.html
not that abbysmality of waiting for Dreadnaught to be blasted)
Good shit bro
I cried when there was no KOTOR 3. KOTOR 1 and 2 are the best things Star Wars to come out since Thrawn. Possibly better.
But we got SWTOR! /s
And when it was announced at PAX I fell to my knees and cried.
Hmm... when you say that KOTOR II doesn't tell you what to think, whether to love it or not, or if you can hold an opposing view, is the implication that The Last Jedi does all those things? I think that is projection, because as one of the people who appreciates The Last Jedi, I didn't feel like it did any of those things. As a film, it couldn't let audience members choose a response in the way that KOTOR as a game does.... but in the films, Luke's view is opposed, and ultimately overturned, by Rey, and by Yoda, who points out that Luke is kind of right about some things but he's drawn the wrong conclusions from it.
Everyone took massive issue with Luke's character development, but to me it was completely understandable and made perfect sense. Luke's optimism and naivete is exactly the kind of thing that makes him vulnerable to bitterness and disillusionment. I remember reading at one point that Lucas even proposed a much darker ending to ROTJ where, in addition to lots more people dying, Luke walks away from his father's funeral pyre in exactly this frame of mind. Not to mention that Luke is then left entirely on his own to try and build an entirely new Jedi Order, sees the cycle of darkness and carnage about to begin in his nephew, sees that darkness is still there within him, and if you looked at the history of the Jedi and Sith, come to the inescapable conclusion that this whole whole cycle just seems to go round and round in a grimly nihilistic manner... I mean wow. Not only does it make sense in-universe, that problem presents itself to the storytellers as well, because you have the choice between just telling the same story over and over and over again, or you have to at least try and bring new ideas and perspectives to the table.
And you also have to look at it in the context that Luke is no longer the protagonist... as a story character, it has to be Rey who is 'bearing the torch' now. She is the hero, and that's her role in the story. Yet Luke also gets to develop, and overcome something arguably greater than just another evil bad guy - the massive question of whether all this is even worth it. Luke's storyline essentially embodies the whole question 'Is there any point in having more Star Wars? Are we just going to do the same thing over and over again? Why fight if it keeps happening again and again?' It's not just about questioning the simplistic narrative of Star Wars, it's all written in awareness and service to the idea of renewal. The answer is in the AFFIRMATIVE, and the film is an AFFIRMATION of the mythos and the universe.
You're right KOTOR did do it better... but the author also had a lot more freedom and room to do it in, rather than being given an existing arc and rota of characters. To my mind Last Jedi could be better, but better would have to have gone FURTHER with those ideas, like KOTOR II does.
Ultimately, expecting Luke to not be changed is demand the Star Wars be even more stagnant, military science & hardware mostly, than it is already. Insisting even the Characters are stagnant on top of that, as apparently some fans do, is perverse. Luke was jarringly different to RotJ, but that difference was explained to the point of constructing the movie along with Kylo Ren's issues around it.
+John Smith The issue is not with change. Its with characters behaving unlike themselves.
Which is in dispute. In the original trilogy: Luke sulked. He got despondent. He gave into his anger. He displayed the naivity and brittle optimism of youth. He required a huge amount of managing and emotional support from Obi Wan and Yoda. And yes, he's grown a bit by the end of Jedi, but that doesn't mean he's become a zen master. As I said, even Lucas saw this potential in Luke if stories about some of the alternative endings suggested for Jedi are tue. And The Last Jedi presents a completely plausible story about how he sees the whole cycle about to repeat itself, and his world come crashing down. To me, this portrayal of Luke is not only plausible, it's much more plausible and interesting than a standard 'hero who always does the right thing' narrative. I don't understand people's resistance to it - it's a story that gets told over and over again in characters like Batman, Arrow and Daredevil, and can even be seen as a variant iteration of part of the Campbell 'hero's journey' cycle that it so often quoted as underpinning Star Wars - 'the hero refuses the call'. They become embittered by their inability to change things, withdraw from the struggle, and someone has to help bring them back. It's just that for some reason, seeing it in Star Wars, a certain subset are losing their collective shit over it.
"It's like poetry, it rhymes."
Ever read Rick Worleys Internet Essay about Star Wars?
Dishonored wolf should be in the 2nd category
Wonderful
"The force is a horrifying concept that has caused needless conflicts that span generations and should be destroyed." Change "the force" to "religion" and you have the real world.
I think the hatred of how certain games are can DEFINITY motivate a designer to bring something to the table.
I know I'm late, but your comment about TLJ made me think. While they both are a critique of Star Wars I believe they are critiquing Star Wars from two different perspectives. Kotor 2 critiques the Star Wars Mythos while TLJ the Star Wars movie. Kotor 2 is about the themes, lore and morality, while TLJ is more through story structure and how Star Wars works as a movie. Indeed TLJ and the whole ST has very little to do with the mythos that was expanded on in the PT and EU before Disney got it's hands on the franchise. Which might be the resaon for some who take issue with TLJ. Despite me actually liking every movie since Force Awakens and thoroughly enjoying Rebels, I won't deny that aside from Rebels and Rogue One, the other movies had so little to do with the mythos already established, that it made the SW universe feel a little smaller than it was before.
I’ve always preferred number 1
jp 1377 And that's perfectly fine! You've just listened to me talk about why I prefer KOTOR II.
So I would love to hear why you prefer the original.
Core Ideas ironically, it’s because of the factors in your video: I love the revan twist just so much
Haha, That's why my brother loves it as well. Which is completely understandable. It was one HELL of a twist.
TBH, the first one is decent in its own way as well, because the plot twist is like Empire Strikes Back, it's contrary to what your character knew, and like Luke Skywalker, you have every reason to feel somewhat used by the Jedi, or you can see it as them trying to help you. It's all a matter of perspective.
No wonder. Kotor1 was simply everything we love about Star Wars, with amazing shell of music, script, characters, everything.
Kotor2 seems much more mature. Music is not epic, it’s nostalgic and longing, locations are closed (budget or not, those fit) and Kotor2 totally deconstructs everything that we loved.
That’s probably the reason why people got pushed away from it at first. I was a kotor1 fan for years and I couldn’t even finish 2, cuz it felt so empty and devoid of that epic space opera feel.
As years progressed I dare say that I grew up on it, and Kotor2 became my favourite story in games, next to Legacy of Kain series.
This game has my favourite Star Wars story too, but I definitely can’t say I prefer the game to Outcast and Academy. The gameplay is just too flawed and buggy for that to be the case. Outcast and Academy have the best light saber combat ever and some of my favorite melee combat in gaming in general.
Great video Kotor 2 is my favorite piece of Star Wars media and I feel like I wouldn’t have like the world as much without it.
KOTOR 1 and 2 are the best thing about the SWU.
You pretty much summed up a lot of why I don't really care for "X is ruined!" videos on CZcams. So many of them just feel like pointless ranting that accomplishes nothing but emptiness and clickbait. KOTOR 2 deconstructed Star Wars because it wanted it to be BETTER, not just spit on the franchise.
Kotor 2 with the restoration mods is right up there with Mass Effect 1
Jolee Bindo critic the Jedi and Sith before Kreia, and he's a Grey Jedi. The different is Jolee see the fault is in their teaching and hypocrisy while Kreia see the fault is The Force itself.
And in the end Revan have to choose between good and evil, there is no grey area. that's what KotOR 1 want to show, the player still have to choose. It is never about The Force is controlling everyone fate, the decision to be good or evil is everyone free will.
Grey Jedi concept itself is also a hypocrisy, the inability to make choice and take responsibility, but it is still within free will, a choice. In the end Jolee have to choose to side Revan or not based on his moral values. This is what KotOR 2 talking about, "apathy is death".
I think, what people disliked most about KoToR 2 was the fact that the original game was incomplete and rushed. the restored content mod "fixed" the game, it made the game so much more replayable. to explore what happened to Atton should you negelect him as a female exile or Briana as a male exile. to do this, just don't get their loyalty high and then boost either Visas for male and Deciple for Female to maximum and you get a special cut scene near the end of the game. but this was cut out of the original game, you never saw the cut scene, the character just refused to talk to you, no explaination because all the cut scenes were gone. there are other scenes on Malacor 5 that also make the story make more sense with the full mod.
1:00 well, there's A TON more praise. Take any recent game, the popular streamers are cuddled up on a contract to the publishers these days and have to praise the games or else they go broke
Great video! The only big complaint I have is that KOTOR1 also deconstructed the Jedi and Sith dynamics through Jolee Bindo and his relationship with the Jedi order. I don't think that game gets enough credit for examining the mythology like KOTOR2. I'd also prefer that game given that it was only because of the fans that KOTOR2 became a full game.
I like Chris Avellone, but I think his arguments against the force and predeterminism don't take in any sort of philosophy of free will into the equation, like the concept of Libertarian free will.
I fully agree and looking back, I would've added in a few lines discussing Jolee. Some people have said I didn't give KOTOR I enough credit and I can understand that. I love that game and while KOTOR II was finished by fans, I have always preferred it even before the RCM.
Thank you for the constructive criticism!
Jolie ran away from the war while thousand died.. Kreia said all that is needed to be said about him. Apathy is death.
You gave me a new appreciation for KotOR2 but I was still disappointed in the game. I think my problems with the game don't stem from the writing though, but from the pacing, characters, and ending. The pacing was pretty bad at times, with some missions being very slow and tedious. The characters weren't as fun or entertaining to be with and it felt like everyone just had a sad tone that made you feel depressed, and the ending had very little differences which left most of your choices feel like they didn't matter in the end. I still liked the idea of a jedi that cut themselves from the force and sith that used the force in such imaginative ways in addition to the idea of you turning your teammates into either jedi, sith or neither. It could have been better but I think what it did right, it did better then any other Star Wars story do date.
Excellent video and excellent points, but man, if there's one thing I wish people would stop doing with their videos having to do with KOTOR and other old canon games is tainting them by showing and mentioning the new canon films. KOTOR is set in a universe where the events of The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi will never happen, and playing these games, much like reading any part of the original Expanded Universe (or "Legends" now), is a nice escape from this neutered version of Star Wars that Kathleen Kennedy and her posse have turned it into.
KOTOR 2 is one of my favorite games of all time. I love it.
I wouldn't be so quick to declare this game as hands-down more controversial and better than kotor 1. Sure, the deconstruction is more overt and fleshed out, but the first game was every bit defiant of Jedi dogma and Sith vice as the OT.
On Manaan, one of the obligatory quests is the Sunry murder trial with a perturbing bait-and-switch. You initially have zero problem discovering evidence for Sith machinations against a Republic veteran, only to later be told by an anonymous man that _both_ sides are in some way culpable. If you follow through with the stranger's advice, you can uncover incriminating evidence against the war hero. If you decide to lawyer up for the Republic despite having uncovered this evidence, the only person who has any moral reservations about it is Jolee. Everyone else on the side of the Republic is perfectly content to let a man get away with _murder_ on a foreign planet just so they can gain an advantage during a war.
More severely, both the Republic and Sith decided to try to circumvent Selkath law and harvest Kolto directly, thus jeopardizing their planet's entire ecosystem. Chris Avellone himself said this planet was so damn good he nearly threw his controller at the screen.
Then there's the whole borderline slapstick depiction of the incompetent Jedi Order that can do nothing to try to combat a threat aimed directly at them aside from commandeer a super weapon through guile and manipulation, namely Revan, for their own purposes. Yes. The Jedi have no reservations about using the war hero who initially defied the council to save the Republic because, at least this time around, they need someone to save their goofy asses. The Jedi are pacifists when it means getting their own masters' robes dirty, but have no issues conscripting someone else to do the fighting for them.
Then there's the redemption arc with Revan's and Bastila's love that completely defies Jedi teachings. This is completely harmonious with Luke Skywalker's defiance of the Jedi and insistence that he helps his friends and save his loved ones, including Luke's redemption of his fallen father. Despite the influence the Force impresses onto all living things, there remains always the inscrutable human element unique to every person. The first game is full of subtlety and moral ambiguity but without a monologue from a character like Kreia spelling it all out.
Obsidian built on Kotor 1 and made the Star Wars universe richer and better, they didn't recreate it. The first game is a work by Mozart, the second by Beethoven.
Excellent analysis! Out of curiosity, have you come across Karen Travis's' Republic Commando novels? They also offer a scathing critique of the Force (though Travis mostly focuses on the ineffectiveness and corruption of the Clone-War-era Jedi Order).
I haven't but from what you're telling me, it sounds right up my alley.
@@CoreIdeas I highly recommend them. Here's Wookipedia article with all the relevant links if you wanna look into it further: starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Republic_Commando_series
From what I've seen paperback editions go for pretty cheap on Amazon: www.amazon.com/Hard-Contact-Star-Wars-Republic/dp/0345478274
Happy reading!
But aren't the prequels already a critique of how far the Jedi had fallen by that era?
@@godspeedhero3671 I'm not sure if you can really infer that directly from the prequels themselves. The Jedi still come to the rescue on Geonosis, and John Williams' score makes Order 66 feel like a tragedy, not some type of final justified cleansing of a corrupt order.
I always felt Kreia'a logic was a bit bizarre. I understand her argument, but one could claim the exact same metaphysical characteristics with the reality of scarcity. It breeds conflict and always works to ensure a kind of balance. Both we and the character in the Star Wars galaxy exist in an universe where factors beyond our control, either consciously willed or unconsciously extant, exert influence over all our lives in some form or fashion. Furthermore, in our world we have already experienced an attempt to do away with such a controlling influence: communism. So far, every attempt at it has failed, and usually resulted in extreme suffering before it imploded. Given such a track record, I found Kreia's goals far more abhorrent than the idea of the Force as some form of galactic puppet-master.
KOTOR 1 and 2 are great games! I just hate how it spawned a lot of gray jedi fan fiction fanatics. It completely contradicts what SW is.
1:39/1:40
For me Last Jedi was a valid and interesting counter to the established "jedi gud" story, but poorly wrapped in with 2 other plotlines that really didnt do the film justice. The scene with Yoda and the scene with R2 convince me that this wasn't someone who'd misunderstood Luke's character, because in those scenes it's like young whiny Luke is back just for a moment! But for the rest of it, you take a character who's created a massive legend for himself, expected to fulfil the task of bringing back the Jedi which the galaxy barely remember beyond stories, and you give him the harsh Star Wars reality of a single student going to the Dark Side and destroying everything he built, mingled with shame sufficient that Luke could never face Leia or Han again? I fully believe our Luke Skywalker would act the way he did, and when he came to train Rey the whole theme there was that he as training her not to just be the next Jedi, but something better. But equally the film showed us a man who couldn't personally let go, who couldn't bring himself to burn the books, and he fully embraced the path of the pacifist by saving people without fighting in the end whilst all his lessons to Rey were about being willing to act and intervene the way a Jedi never would. I prefer that so much to if he'd just shown up like a badass and killed everyone with his laser sword, or more likely been killed in a duel to enable the next film in the trilogy. Imagine how the fans would react to either of those endings happening to their Luke Skywalker? Mass-murder or losing a duel? Fans would riot with either outcome lol.
The main strength of Kotor 2 is character writing and ability to roleplay any kind of Exile you want. Kreia's philosophy is interesting, but i think a lot of her stance towards the force comes not from the inside the world, but from the meta perspective of the observer. In the Star Wars universe force would be just another, well, force, a natural phenomenon constantly moving certain equilibrium. It's like someone taking a philosophic stance and trying to destroy thermodynamics into our world. Makes sense from meta point of view, but a bit silly if you immerse yourself into Star Wars world.
Best star wars story there ever was.
Kotor II is great the content mod, not without , imho
0:16
Look up DuDuFilm on here for some great Sith Propaganda. The dude has the editing skills of a wizard.
I think Kreia would be disgusted by the events of TLJ. How Luke cuts himself off from the force not because he had to in order to save his life like the exile, but because he ran away from his problems like a coward. Kreia hates stagnation and those who refuse to learn from their mistakes, much like Kylo Ren who had the opportunity to free himself from blinding, psychotic rage and find his own path. Instead, he reverted back to the psychotic manchild that he is known for.
And dear lord would she fucking despise Rey. Because of how much power she has gained which is not even her own. Rey was given power from an outside source, which is the force for no other reason than ''the force picked her to be its champion''. Kreia desires for the individual person to reach power all on their own without relying on the force. And without the force, Rey is literally fucking nobody. Even with other jedi like Luke and yoda, or even sith like Darth Sidious they still have useful skills that they don't need the force to accomplish, like manipulation in Sidious' case or Yoda for being a great teacher. What the fuck does Rey bring to the table other than being a mary sue?
I agree completely. I can't stop replaying this game even in 2018.
Maybe the Skywalker bloodline is supposed to be an agent for the Force and Rey is the death of the Force. Just one of the many ways to redeem the sequel trilogy Disney will never do.😒