Exploring Pinion's Prototype Smart.Shift Electronic Shifting Gearbox
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- čas přidán 28. 03. 2024
- Pinion Smart.Shift is Pinion's brand new electronic shifting gearbox transmission for bikes. Here at Big Brain Party, we were lucky enough to get a pre-production prototype to check out. Note: because these are pre-production units, they will have some kinks to be worked out, as noted in this video. Still, I thought it was interesting to start talking about this technology and see what it actually rides like. Did you learn something new? Say thanks and support this channel: www.buymeacoffee.com/bigbrain...
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A few more clarifications: Pinion states on their website that the smartshift battery pack "provides well over 20,000 shifting operations, which corresponds to about 100 pure operating hours." I'm betting we're going to have to charge this a lot more than we thought. Probably closer to what an axs battery may need.
I hope the production model solves these issues. On this pre-production bike, I wasn't able to shift "regardless of pedal pressure."
I'm actually really excited for smartshift, but I'm concerned that these claims are inaccurate. I'm concerned that people are buying smartshift bikes based off these claims, which do not match my experience.
Thanks for that review. I am an owner of the Priority 600X (pinion/gripshift style). I am also a Bike Mechanic who lives and rides in the muddy pacific Northwest.
I have ridden my 600 for almost a year in the worst of conditions with zero maintenance other than one belt tension adjustment.
I absolutely appreciate the pinion / belt combo. Yes, it is less efficient than a chain or even a rohloff system, but being able to dump gears at a standstill and not having to constantly maintain a drivetrain is worth the price of admission to me. Not having to replace a $300.00 top tier cassette/chain as well as not having the material and manufacturing waste throwing worn parts away is a huge bonus. Most riders can not even begin to get close to extracting all the performance out of the modern bikes anyway. The centralized CG makes a noticeable difference as well. You do get used to being able to ratchet the bike without it being a noticeable bother.
For me, the import takeaways from your video are not seeing what gear you are in - I imagined they might have a gear display at some point. Also not being able to dump more than one gear at a click - i.e. programmable shifting - hold for multiple shifts(?). The battery life and shifting under load will hopefully get sorted before shipping - I have a 600HXT on order and I was told the shipping delay was to sort out issues. I am not ready to cancel the order yet, but I'll be keeping a close eye on what develops.
I hope Priority and pinion take heed of your review and customers wishes. As a DTC company, Priority has been very good to do business with and are filling an important niche in the bike industry.
Lastly, I was hoping for at least a hint of how the HXT handled... ;-)
The HXT has good neutral handling.
Great review Steve!!! Your honesty is always refreshing, it didn’t look or sound great in the video and you didn’t try to sugar coat it. It was great learning more about Pinion!!! Great job 👍
I’m reminded of my argument against rapid rise rear derailleurs. When I need a lower gear, I NEED it. I’ve never NEEDED a higher gear. Downshift should be 100% reliability.
I still love my rapid rise XTR.
LOVE the new channel, Steve! Keep up the good work!
It's good to see an honest review of these things. Hopefully, they take your observations and make a the improvements. So much potential!
Been running Smart.Shift for 9 months now on my enduro bike (165/170). incredible. No maintenance. So reliable. Raced it today in the NZ mud on a Zerode Katipo 29er. Makes the bike so consistent
how often do you have to charge it?
Thanks for taking one for the team. That was miserable.
I can't wait to see this tech perfected. Great vid Steve!
Same here.
Just discovered this channel after watching your sea otter video, I watch hardtail party too
I have also ordered one of these and am excited about the process
Thanks
Really Great to see a video like this.
Very very non bias And only the facts
This is great stuff keep it up
Very interesting, great video Steve!
Issues are to be expected in pre-production/proto stages. Looking forward to see your review on the production model hopefully!
Nice honest review!
Great video and thank you. I hope the concept continues, for sure, but for now it's best left for rails to trails
Hopefully, pinion can work out the bugs as it could be a great alternative to a derailleur system. I enjoyed when you asked Dusty Betty if she wanted to go in front and she literally went by you in the air. Thanks for the video.
Solid review! I think wouldn't have an issue with grip shift since I'm old school but I'd like to see a review comparison between pre and post production models of the electronic version. Keep up the good work🔥
Thank you, Steve. While realizing this is not a production model, this video confirms yet again my position on Pinion gearing. Pinions are not for people who are out to attack the terrain in any way shape or form. If your cup of tea is bumbling along at a leisurly pace, be it on easy trails, non-tech bikepacking, bike touring or commuting, the Pinion is going to do it for you all day long. But if you wanna attack the terrrain XC style or tech trails, the Pinion just is not going to make the cut. Too sloppy and too heavy, which translates into too slow. For me, it would be my preferred choice for a commuter bike. But I live in Norway and so cold weather is another point of interest. As we all know, cold weather tends to cut badly into the longevity of a battery before a recharge is required, so it'd be interesting to know how this specific version of the Pinion holds up against cold weather.
Cheers.
I have hope that it can become competitive one day for technical riding, but it's got a lot of competition with over 100 years of R&D on derailleurs. I hope it'll catch up, because there are some potentially awesome advantages.
The shifting issues are a deal breaker for me, shifting is the heart and soul of a mtb and inconsistent shifting, lagging or grinding would bring my ride to a screeching halt! id love to see how this is in a few years but i think they still have a few years before they have this figured out. thanks for the review steve.
Well, that gets one of the dealbreaker out-of-the-way. I like that trigger shift rather than grip shift. Although it would be cool if they could go Wi-Fi like AXS and similarly to access. I think I would be wrong shifting at times. But I can’t wait to get one for a full suspension, utilizing that unsprung weight reduction on the rear triangle. Thanks for the video keep up the good work!
Great video! I was very excited about this bike when it was announced but I am really nervous of the engagement feeling and not being able to fix it or work on it myself. For now, I’ll take Advent X and save my money.
Let's hope the production model fixes these issues. Advent x is fantastic for the price.
I notice the COG of my ebike is really forward. The heavy battery in downtime is the cause. Whenever I do jumps, the front-end nose dives. But I do love my TREK Rail 5 ebike.
Hi, thanks so much for the review. It led me to conclude that SmartShift still doesn't shift under load and isn't entirely stable, despite some reviewers claiming otherwise. As we all know, one of the drawbacks of internal gears is their inability to shift under load; you have to stop pedaling before shifting. For some people, this is a fundamental issue. Pinion SmartShift attempts to address this by electronically shifting when the pedal is in a vertical position, where the power load on the pedal is relatively small. However, implementing this in real life is not as easy as it sounds. There's only one internal gear that can shift under load, and that's Nuvinci. However, Nuvinci's weakness is that it can't provide a hub with a range of up to 600%; its maximum range is only 380%, which is sufficient for people with ideal weight and good physical condition but not for the general population.
Reminds me of the electromagnetic clutches on a on vehicle brake lathe.
This is one review I've been waiting for.... I like the concept of Pinion... like a lot... I'm a set and forget type of rider, so the idea of just riding without hassle or tedious maintenance I'm game... But I've had a hard time coming across any reviews that aren't biased feeling.... Also without the sound of the gearbox... You always give good unbiased reviews. Based of this video... Pinion has a way to go for the MTB masses I feel... I really wanted to like this bike.... Bummer.
I have hope that many of these issues will be worked out in the future...
@@BigBrainParty please let us know when you get a production one to test and let us know if issues are resolved. How a company handles problems will say a lot about its future. It sounds like your pre-production pinion has a bunch of issues.
Keep in mind that this bike came equipped with Pinion's new model which has electronic shifting. The tried and true mechanical model should have better reviews.
I want to take one apart. Interesting concept. Might be a start of a different sub niche for some folks.
check out my 2023 sea otter video on Hardtail Party to see what's going on inside the gearbox
Oh man, sounds like this tech needs a few more years of engineering.
I do like priority's line of bikes.
Love your new channel.
Teething issues aside, if it feels anything like riding a hub gear, there's an immediacy and directness of energy transfer to the feel of a derailleur system that makes me feel more connected to the bike, versus hub/pinion systems where I feel once removed somehow (although I haven't ridden a pinion). Really cool to witness all the technical innovation happening tho 😊
Superb, informative, unbiased content. Thank you very much. Well, I am very disappointed with actual Pinion performance. But I agree with you completely, its new technology and needs refinement. I hope they manage to fix it and become real competition to old shiting system.
I have a lot of hope for gearboxes in the future.
Seems like it'd be good for a commuter bike
Looks interesting but I also have no problem with the derailleur
Probably has a torque sensor or a syncro gear out of line or underestimated the power the motor needs to shift gears. u are the best tester for things like this which is why they sent it to you
Thank you for the review! I have 600HTX on preorder. Hopefully Pinion can work out the major drawbacks. Not being able to shift under load is definitely a deal breaker for me (having to wait 10 seconds for a shift to take place is abysmal). Also battery life is very important. A week long charge is enough for me.
Man what a bummer. Hopefully they will improve the prototype significantly in the near future.
I looked at this at Crankworx Rotorua on zeroed bikes(best bike I have ever ridden). If you add up the transmission costs, time and drama 🎭(chains, lube, hangers, servicing, parts, gears ⚙️, derailleurs) it’s probably worth it ❤. You have to change before you need it not under power. I liked the grip shift. Seriously looking at a zeroed frame swap or used bike 🚲. You should test a zeroed bike
I've ridden them before, just not on the channel.. Cool bikes
Compared to a 10x52 cassette + 30t chainring 12 spd drivetrain, how does the range compare?
I’m a heavy rider and still building my ability to climb. I still struggle atm. I’m interested if this would provide an easier hearing for me to climb or not.
When are they going to send you a prototype 600ADX ? The advanced 600X with Smart-Shift ?
I like the idea, would be nice for a mechanical option, while I'm not against electronic devices, i don't like devices that don't have a user replaceable battery, its just E-Waste waiting to happen.
I hope they can send you another bike when they have the final production version. I've also considered the possibility that people might think it's an e-bike, which are not allowed where I like to ride. The straight chain line seems like a huge plus. That should drastically improve chain life, should you choose to run it chained. The engagement needs to be improved. It appears to have the lowest engagement I've ever seen. That would cause me to have a lot of pedal strikes here in Connecticut rock tech.
Dang. I soooooo want a gearbox transmission. Seems like its still just a touch short of the functionality I want.
Let's hope they iron out a few of these kinks before release.
So after 9 months of exclusive SS riding the thing I notice the most is not having the weight of a cassette and derailleur on the rear wheel. This is a step in the right direction but I think we have at least another decade before this becomes relevant. Williams Racing and Trinity are doing some interesting gearbox things in Australia, more of a manual transmission
I preordered back in October. I love working on bikes but I just don't have time for it right now. This was perfect for me if it was as advertised. Did priority say that they expected the production pinion smart shifts to do better? That performance is not good enough for my uses I will have to cancel the order. So bummed.
Nobody has ridden the production version yet, so all we can do is hope the issues were fixed.
Please compare rohloff with reg. Pinion 18!
That sound is the chipmunk gear.
Two things that I'd really like to understand: where battery is stored, and how do you charge it? Is there a timestamp for that?
Battery is stored in the downtube i believe. On this prototype, you have to remove the dropper to fish out the charging cable. The production model is different though. I believe it charges near the habdlebars
What was that knocking noise? It was constant, not just when you were shifting. Did you have a strap or something hitting the camera or mount?
Yes, unfortunately my lapel mic had an issue so i had to use the onboard go pro mic. My jacket kept hitting the gopro, making the knocking sound
@@BigBrainParty thank you for the reply!
I really wish this was better but I do understand why mechanically it wont shift sometimes. You're basically trying to shift a car transmission without a clutch. So I wouldn't use one on a mountain bike but if I am to ever build a dedicated bikepacking bike I would absolutely consider this.
I'm sad the smart.shift doesn't seem to be there for now and I will look forward to other reviews to confirm that :(
Saying "splines" is a misunderstanding of how it works. It doesn't use splines, it uses an axle with pawls on it that are engaged and disengaged by a rotating cam inside the axle.
Alright I'll share my idea. I didn't know if this is possible but if like to try. If like to pair a rohloff hub with a pinion. Just to have the lowest gear every and the highest gear ever and some 100+ gears in between. Although most would be duplicate gears. Get experimental!
PS. Every time you said "O pinion" 😂😂😂😂😂😂
I like that experiment!
Not a fan of the wide range huge jumps approach of Pinion and never quite felt confident with the underload grip shift version. Admittedly only ever test rode bikes, so never became second nature.
The auto-trigger shift seems cool.
Would still prefer closer cut gears or more possibly options.🤙
Makes me glad I didn't preorder this bike. I was so close to preordering. Living in the PNW, the idea of less cleaning after a muddy ride is so enticing. Hoping they iron out these issues.
It doesn't actually shift under power. All internal gearboxes & hubs have to shift between pedal power. The closest they can come to shift-under-power is register a request to shift & supply it when the power is light enough.
This has been my experience as well, despite the claims of some companies.
Audio got some weird pops in this video. Not the worst, but letting you know brother.
I know, i heard it when i was a editing it. Thanks. my windbreaker was slapping the mic. Ive got a new mic coming this weekend, hopefully it fixes it
You charge your phone almost every day, i have iphone with 1580 battery cycles, 78% capacity.
So if its really 10k clicks per charge then you can expect 15 800 000 clicks, if click each second it will be 3 straight days of clicking until you got ~80% of original capacity.
Sadly, my battery was drained in 40 min
@@BigBrainParty
Yeah, but i really think its something about pre production state, i cant believe that someone in engineering department of pinion thinks that 40 mints of shifting is acceptable.
They should just make it wireless, why cables these days?
Okay. You lost me at: “there is a battery in there „
Honestly that sounds like a pre-production issue. It can't be that bad for the final version. Priority should *NOT* have sent that bike out to anyone. Bad move on their part. If the actual production bike has even 10% of those issues I have no idea why Priority would sell that product.
That's how prototypes go, they're usually still working out some issues with pre-production stuff. I appreciate early looks, and this feedback may help them
The onus is on Pinion though, they're the gearbox manufacturer. Priority only makes the frame and assembles the components on it.
"Not user serviceable" that's where they lost me.
We mountain bikers are willing to do more maintenance to our bikes if it means higher performance. Hydraulic brakes, complex suspension, tubeless tires, etc. I think the same applies to drivetrains. The minor inconvenience of lubing and cleaning my chain every now and then is absolutely worth it for the efficiency, consistentcy, and reliability.
Speak for yourself.
nope, i hate cleaning my drivetrain every other ride due to the moondust in my area. i've swapped to 7 speed cassette just so i could have a short cage rear derailleur instead of these ridiculous pizza sized cassettes on the rear wheel with these huge long cage derailleurs.
I would rather underbike with not enough gears than have huge costly finicky 12 speed cassettes. This innovation although in its infancy needs to be supported. The death of the rear derailleur cant come soon enough!
I plan to get one as soon as i can afford to. As long as they provide good customer service and stick with and support the early adopters this will be worth it.
Also a bike with a Pinion is going to cost you less if the long run if you're the kind of cyclist who rides 3 times a week or more. Right now I replace my chain every year and my cassette every other year. That adds up
@@leinad20002There will always be people who will never give up rim brakes, rigid forks, and single speeds. And there's nothing wrong with that! But it's going to be tough to convince the majority of people to put something slower and heavier on their bikes. However, something like Pinion is a great option for people who care more about riding than efficiency gains.
Pay no attention to the naysayers.....you are 100% correct.
@@pedrosanciny6345perhaps where you live....but in Michigan we have rolling terrain that generally feels like a grind, ANY extra effort will kill a serious ride. Then combine that with an endurance ride of 40 plus miles....you'll gladly lube chains afterwards.
10k shifts? So like two rides? Jk
More and more electric things on my bike??? Sorry, but i like things simple. Never had any trouble with deraileurs, even if they were covered with mud. They simply work. Those, who like the electric stuff, buy it....but, please, give me the chance to decide on my own. I like that mechanical gimmicks, that oldschool technology, where i don' t have to be rocket scientist, to fix it. Weight and price are further probs, i see. Nice to know, that it exists, but i don't want it.
Definitely disappointed! Whom ever decided to build a grip shift opposite of a motorcycle needs a reality check . Years on a dirt bike just can't tell my mind to switch !
Ill bet itd be pretty easy to swap the cables so it behaves the way you want.
@@BigBrainParty interesting thought ! On the shifter or in the gearbox ?
@@garysmith643 either would work, but I'll bet it'd be easier to switch it at the gearbox end and just cross the cables inside the frame