Do record cleaning machines work?
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- čas přidán 26. 03. 2020
- Plenty of time and money can go into a record cleaning machine, but is it worth the time and expense? Paul gives us the definitive answer.
Have a question you want to ask Paul? Go to www.psaudio.co... - Věda a technologie
I have a $79 SPIN-CLEAN (and I thought $79 was expensive for a plastic bin with plastic rollers and micro fiber brushes), but... it works for me - even this inexpensive cleaning system works fine. Especially now that you can’t replace the original hand held Disc-washer for everyday use. I Spin Clean about 40 albums at a time while listening to the ones I’ve cleaned. Yes, It’s tedious- but worth it. Also, AFTER you clean your album, I suggest an archival sleeve (saving the liner notes, of course)
I use a hand washed device a Disco Antistat stat and find this is perfect , but do I spend £300 -£400 and buy a record doctor?
I use a cheap Spin Clean system,
cleaned a few hundred albums, used and new it makes a world of difference.
You really notice how quiet the record gets in between songs.
Just think of the wear you are saving on the stylus. Worth the trouble as far as I’m concerned. 😎
I used a Spin Clean for the longest time, until I started hearing about the vacuum style machines. So I plunked down and got a Record Doctor V. That lasted about 2 1/2 years before it blew up on me (literally). So I went back to using the Spin Clean. Now that I have tried both, I can't honestly say the vacuum style machine was that much better than the Spin Clean. I think if you're buying new vinyl reissues while being very careful about the used records you purchase, the Spin Clean does work.
Paul ya a buddy has a $1,000 record cleaner, on a few occasions I had a really noisy used record that I cleaned first ‘that helped but not perfect’ so gave it to him to clean on his expensive cleaner and it didn’t clean it any better. You would swear he hadn’t
touched it. So I’m convinced the Spin Clean works just as good as any of them. I buy a lot of used jazz records
in the $50-$100 range and it amazing
the crap it removes from them.
You see it in the water after cleaning
just a few. It Magic 👍😎
Yup, gotta agree with the sentiment regarding Spin Clean....it really works and really isn't that difficult to clean your records with it. Immediately I saw the results when I was emptying the solution from the bin.
Paul is spot on, here. I’ve had a $199 Record Doctor for many years and thought it was doing a reasonably good job, but when I got an ultrasonic machine records that were still plagued with pops and clicks after repeated vacuum cleanings were dramatically improved after ultrasonic cleaning. A PITA, yep-but so worth it!
I used to use a Spin Clean but unless you are using a second one for rinse, you’re just spinning your records back into the dirty water. One advantage with a RCM is that it’s designed to clean a single record unlike the SC.
I made my own out of an old BSR turntable & a mini shop vac with wands I fashioned to fit the hose on the vacuum. One for cleaning LPs & one for 7"s...lines the slits I cut in the wands with MoFi brush pads...I use a MoFi brush with L'art du Son for wet cleaning, then vacuum it off. Works great for me or anyone who can't afford a machine.
Love my Okki Nokki. It’s an irreplaceable improvement in the vinyl experience. In 95% of cases, it eliminates all ticks and pops.
I had an early Atomic Rooster album that could only be playable after being 'Okki Nokki' so yes, I believe they do work, but I also don't dispute that vinyl is hard work, and you need to find the time to cope with it.
Been trying to find one. They supposedly released a new model in 2021, but their rep in the US dumped them and no one seems to know what's going on with them.
Hi Paul, I love your presentations and honesty. I enjoy sharing my morning coffee with you and look forward to them every day. Thanks so much.
Record cleaning machines (RCM) do work and have an important purpose. Having said that, some machine designs are better than others. The good thing is that there is one for every budget. I studied "record cleaning" (aka restoration) for two years! Sounds like overkill? Ok, perhaps, but I am into older records with the music I grew up on. Not many have been reissued and most reissues have problems in my book. I'd rather have an original pressing. In my case, I also look at such records as historical documents. Those records really were statements on society at the time and the issues and matters of the time. I'd rather preserve them. Not only that, but with the fairly recent disasters at record labels and plants, I may have one of the few copies of such recordings left. I am not a "collector" nor a seller. I purchase records for preservation and enjoyment. I could care less about monetary value.
As for cleaning: RCMs don't necessarily clean records, they are really platforms for the task. Depending on the amount of records one has and the severity of contamination (as we quasi-record scientist call the dirt) can help determine what type of "system" one will need (at least to start). Some can get a way with a $80 Spin-Clean and some need more. I started with a make-shift vacuum system I DIY'd, but after a repetitive motion injury caused by that system and a growing collection, I had to move up the chain (to a VPI 16.5). Even while I had the DIY system, I started studying fluids (chemicals) for cleaning records. Through research and experimentation I discovered what works safely and what doesn't.
The thing that really cleans records properly is methodology. There is not time for me to go into a 40 page dissertation here though.
I would advise for those who want to clean their records the following:
1) The reasons are numerous as to why you should clean your records, but an example I will point out is that not only do they sound better, but it makes your stylus and cartridge last longer. When you play a record heat is generated. By the time you reach the end of the third track, you have a lot of heat built up. Not enough to melt anything of course, but enough to make contaminates stick to your stylus. Most contaminates found on a record are protein based and protein based contaminates can be sticky. (This is also why I do not recommend using things like GruvGlide, LAST or any fluids that leave anything behind, including dish soap. What happens is some of those contaminates can permanently affix to the stylus and some can also wick up the cantilever and into the cartridge. Even oil from your fingers can attract dirt and make it stick.
2) Carbon brushes and the like are for dusting records, not cleaning them.
3) Use the right fluids! I can't stress that enough. Very few so-called "record cleaning fluids" are actually safe to use on records. I would stick with something like Audio Intelligence Vinyl Solutions or MoFi.
4) If you are considering an ultrasonic RCM, be careful. Just because the machine costs $4000 or $5000 doesn't mean it is best. I also do NOT recommend any of the "make-shift" USRCMs made from medical ultrasonic units. You have to be careful about transducer frequency, temperature, frequency array and transport. Very few ultrasonic record cleaning units have this correct. Fortunately, I know of one that does and it comes in at under $1000. Also never use anything but distilled water in those machines and change the water often.
This was just a very brief and incomplete piece of info on the subject. I am working on a scientific paper about it, but it is going to be a while. I used to have a website where I talked about proper record care, but that has been down for two years now. (I took it down because I left journalism). When I do my paper, I am thinking about also publicly publishing it on a blog or something.
I want folks to take care of their records.
So which ultrasonic record cleaning unit do you recommend that is under $ 1000.- ?
@@anton88ist That's easy = The KRC-1 from Kirmuss Audio (Approx $900). I need to try to keep this short and this is not an ad for Kirmuss Audio. I'm just telling you my experience and findings, but suffice it to say there are cheaper DIY units indeed, but they will ruin your records for any number of reasons: Wrong transducer frequency, wrong transducer array, wrong temperature, wrong transport, etc. For example, you have 3D printed units where you buy the transport system for $150 to $250 and then you have to buy your own vat for $150 to $250, so the total is say $500 to $600. The problem is that for one thing the vat is not correct. Those vats you can get off Amazon or Ebay or wherever are for cleaning parts or medical tools, not records! They are the wrong frequency, array and temperature. (Don't fall for the temperature controls on those either, they only go down to around 98 to 100 degrees, which is too hot for records.
Then there are the transports. With those vats you have to use a skewer system. This is bad for the record. First, it destroys the spindle hole. Second, for multi-record systems there is the problem of spacing. Many are too close together causing standing waves so the sonic or plasma waves do not reach all the way to the inner grooves on subsequent records. This is also due to vat space restrictions, which one needs to take into account. The KRC-1 allows for two 12-inch, one 10-inch and one 7-inch to be done at the same time if you want. Other vats are a bit smaller and they try to stick 6 records in them, when the correct number would be 2 to 3.
Another different thing about the KRC-1 is the transport. The records are handled in such a way that they are in no danger, the transport used is patented. No skewers, grips, etc. The records ride on rubber wheels if you will, with a gear system controlled by a logic unit.
I have been using the KRC-1 since end of 2017. I'm a lay-curator of vinyl records. The results I have been getting from it is nothing short of astounding. I also do not have to worry about my records turning into brittle pieces of plumbing over time by using the wrong transducers, etc. You will never repair damage, but I have records from the 50s and sixties I picked up used that have gone from a sonic grade of say G to VG after just a few cycles through the machine (with proper methodology of course). I even have plenty of records hit the holy grail of VG++ sonically! (My library thus far is around 700+)
I studied record cleaning/restoration for two years and also ran my own experiments. I learned the chemistry, etc. Outside of cost being the reason I did not pick up a $5000 KLAudio or the like was more so the fact, they are not made correctly. In fact, both the KLAudio (now defunct) and Audiodesk units use brushes. I have not figured why they would need that. (One does not need brushes in an ultrasonic bath). They are also the wrong frequency and array. (They also have too long a cycle).
I learned what the correct build would be and just waited for someone to come out with one if ever. In 2016, Kirmuss Audio came out with their machine and upon learning about it, I was surprised somebody bothered to do it right. So I started saving up!
@@ericelliott227 - thank you for your brevity.
@@ericelliott227 Show me the data on transducer placement, or 'the wrong transducers' then we'll talk shop, otherwise Kirmuss is just blowing smoke up peoples arses.
@@ericelliott227 Further more, on 'spindle driven systems' surely you are not putting any stress on records that will cause any type of defect in the future? At most, your average vinyl junkie will only be cleaning their records with such a process say twice in their life time, and each record will only be put through such a stressor for a maximum of lets say (generously) 15 minutes? From my own observation as a scratch DJ and a vinyl collector of 25 years, your 'spindle damage' comment is really a moot point, is it not?
@1:04
"My experience with them is that they are a pain in the ass"
Correct.
But just as a vacuum cleaner will get the job done, it is still a $h!tty job to do vacuuming.
A recording cleaning machine is still a cleaner of sorts. It does make cleaning records much easier and with worthwhile results. But in the end, it is a cleaning job -- and cleaning is always a chore.
@2:33
"Ultrasonic record cleaning machines"
Folks, yes, a good one will do an amazing job (and will have a price to match). But ultrasonic record cleaning machines are not perfect -- they have a limitation that affordable machines do not have.
If you have a record that is particularly dirty, then although cleaning it in an ultrasonic machine will help, it will not get all of the dirt off. Ultrasonic machines are best for records that already appear to be somewhat clean.
So if you buy a used record, and to the naked eye it looks like it needs a good cleaning, then a quick wash with, for example, a VPI 16.5 machine will get 99.5% of the grime off of the record. Then, a follow-up wash in an ultrasonic machine will be like having Star Trek's Seven Of Nine use her Nano-Probes to go inside the grooves and remove whatever molecules of debris are remaining.
The above will do wonders for bringing out the magic in the grooves, and will reduce surface noise significantly. It is a critical part of the equation in getting records to playing inky silently.
But note that 80%+ of pressings suck. You can have NASA clean them, and they will still suck.
15+% are very good, and a cleaning will really help.
Only 1% or 2% have amazing sound quality (and only on one side -- you'll have to keep searching for the same album to find one that has amazing sound quality on the other side).
When you have one of the sonic gems, and clean it, and your turntable is professionally dialed in, you will be transported to a magical sonic heaven.
If you did not seriously set up every vector of your turntable / arm / cartridge, so that your stylus can do an optimal job job, then your record cleaning will only partially pay off.
Unfortunately, there are many people that will clean a record, and when they do not hear an improvement, or the improvement is negligible, they mistakenly conclude that record cleaning is a waste of time and money. But the problem is due to piss-poor pressings (most are poor) and not professionally dialing in their turntable gear (which is hard to do and time consuming to get it right).
Cheers!
Yes, they absolutely work and make a difference even on brand new records. I’ve got a Record Doctor VI which I use a mixture of tergikleen and ilfotol then a rinse with distilled water. It’s a necessity to me. I’ll likely be picking up one of those new HumminGuru ultrasonic cleaners as well.
I just received my HummingGuru a few days ago. I highly recommended it!
Any updates on your updated hardware?
Thanks.
"Anything in life worth having is worth working for." - Andrew Carnegie
Since we are on the subject, I like the ONZOW ZeroDust stylus cleaner. Also, this is probably obvious, but once you've cleaned your records, put them in a nice plastic inner sleeve (like high-density polyethylene) and ditch those paper sleeves.
A sink full of water and dishwashing detergent. As someone who was around in the "record" era I am amused by the obsessive preoccupation with cleaning records, a carbon brush every time you pay one and washing every so often does the trick, after all you're supposed to be enjoying the darn things, enough trouble washing my truck.
Great explanation Paul! I need to get an Ultrasonic now! Thanks. I love my LP collection and my listening time with my Klipsch LSii's, which can, at times really expose an Unclean record.
I love your Dailies. Keep up the great work
I borrowed a record of a mate years ago. And I put it on while I fell asleep being as the HiFi I had at the time would shut off when finished. I woke up the next morning to find that it had got stuck jumping on the same bit all night. There was a lighter circle of “bits” around that but of the groove. So I thought I’d sneak out and get him a new one. 😂😂
The Spin Clean, under $100, is awesome.
Yippie 👍🏻
Same here, i just got one
Very thorough explanation sir. Thank you...
At a time like this seeing Paul, hearing him chuckle and feeling his good vibes is a great comfort and a much needed distraction.
If I’m not mistaken ultrasonic cleaners require little or no maintenance. Machines like the VPI need to have things like rollers and motors replaced.
The only thing I can see wearing-out on a Kirmuss Ultrasonic Record Restoration machine is the lid, which also turns the record....and you can get a replacement from the company when it does.
Yes they do work, without a doubt. I've been using a Clearaudio Matrix RCM for years and I wouldn't be without it. If you buy second hand vinyl like I do, I would recommend you give them a thoroughly good clean before your precious rock hits the groove. Personally I would not use an ultrasonic cleaner because the ones I've looked at the drying cycles are too long and the fans are noisy. My Matrix RCM is noisy on vacuum drying but it takes seconds and not minutes compared to an ultrasonic unit. Anyway, regardless of what you use, they are worth it.
I have had the same Nitty Gritty 1.0 for more than 25 years and it still works like a charm. It has only required replacement of the vacuum lips. It is completely manual and simple to use. I would not call it a PITA by any means.
Sadly they went out of business back in 2017. They were expensive, but that auto-reverse feature on the higher end models was so cool.
@@tomscott4438 They did go out of business in 2017 but went back in business under new ownership the following year. They remain in business today.
I have a self assembled Moth RCM . for years I tried different methods . I discovered L'Art du Son record cleaning fluid which was a game changer for me .It is very good . some of my best records play without any surface noise. Others have hardly any and the sound is improved too. They are the most involving format. CD is OK sometimes but for real entertaining listening records are best in my experience.
I recently purchased a Vevor ultrasonic record cleaning machine. I use about ten drops of TergiKleen in a gallon and a third of DISTILLED water. After the machine shuts off I rinse each record in another bath of distilled water to get the TergiKleen solution off of the record. After about three hundred records I can say this is the best idea I ever had. I can't afford the $3000+ dollars for one of the top-of-the-line machines but this one does just what I want at a price a retiree can afford. There are a few cheaper versions that use the same tank portion but they don't look like they'd really work all that well. And yes, the sound quality I get is far better than I could ever have imagined, especially on records that are decades old.
Hi Paul, owner of a high end audio company and you don't clean your records for the best possible sound? How do you know when your new speaker line will sound the best they can be? What do you use for testing your new speakers ----- CD/SACD, LPS, Streaming? Your ears are getting older like me (same age). Do you leave the testing to younger folks? In my experience, the Kirmuss Audio and Audio Desk Systeme are the best cleaners for the best musical sound. Your audiophile friend Steve Guttenberg simply uses a low cost solution. A dab of dish soap with distilled water and VOILA, NO FUSS and Audiophile Delights!
Recently invested in a Okki Nokki record cleaning machine, I’m gobsmacked with the difference, many of my records were bought in the 70’s and 80’s, wish I’d bought one sooner.
This is the pinnacle of audio sophistication and somebody working there put a dime on the headshell like it was 1978 at your buddy's basement hangout. That's hilarious.
Good Afternoon Paul.
Always have followed your presentation. And in this episode you have convinced me to get a ultrasonic record cleaner.
Mohan... Malaysia 🇲🇾
A thick layer of woodglue, let it dry, peel it off; It does some serious magic on vinyl
Very laborious though.
@@terrywho22 That and 6 to 10 bucks a side is a bit expensive.
Agreed thanks for the video.
@@finscreenname good point.
@@terrywho22 Well, with the glue you can do multiple sides at once, not with the machine. The solvents in the glue also attack fatty stuff in the dirt. Both approaches take a lot of time no matter what.
Amazing , Paul Will buy an $8k power cable For his power conditioner ,Because he can hear the difference, But he won’t clean an album before playing it , I guess the noise off the record doesn’t bother him.
That's a big part of audiophile life anyway. Some people are susceptible to different things. I go to audio shows where people demo with records that sound like a campfire. It's too much for me, but they seem to enjoy it. Same with, for instance, speed changes. Some people hear them right away (me), others don't. What I am completely insensitive to is background noise. Noise reduction? No please!
😀that’s funny , so true
You don't have to get the power cable out of a drawer somewhere and insert it every time you play a record, it's a one time operation. Who on earth would want to clean their 40 minute record EVERY time they listen to it? That is compulsive obsessive behavior. Clean it every now and then, and enjoy the music. No record will ever be 100% noise and dirt free - if that is an absolute demand, then vinyl is not for you.
@behexen250 I still don't care. I do hear it bit it doesn't bother me :)
behexen250 yup. I’ve never deep cleaned a record twice. Clean and store in a new sleeve and a resealable dust jacket and I’m done.
Excellent explanation Paul. The problem with ultrasonic machine method is that a few have mentioned the temperature of the bath wash. Some claim that a warm temperature works best for cavitation. Also at what frequency in hertz works best, without damaging the record?
I use a laser guided evaporation magnatronizer myself, works a treat.
Are you the Martian from Bugs Bunny?
That day will arrive sooner than you think...
I have a grounded carbon-fiber brush (called Oracle) that has worked for decades. My records are pretty clean to start with. Most of the dirt is picked up while removing the record from the sleeve and setting it on the platter. The grounded brush removes the charge and attracts the dust. Room cleanliness and humidity are important when playing a record. I don't play records with the dust cover down because there is an audible difference. Also, a dust cover can pick up significant charge. I have seen an arm lifted off the record when the cover was closed (a long time ago).
To answer the question....plenty of experience with them here. Yes, they work and go from average to excellent depending on the machine.
You don't need to wash your record before each listen. However, deep clean, place in a brand new clean sleeve (quality sleeves make a difference, avoid paper they can scuff the vinyl aside from anything else). Then maintain with carbon fibre brush, anti static device and stylus cleaner (onzow or similar gel). They'll remain really clean for a long time.
The type of solution you 'deep' clean with makes a difference also. That's likely an entirely different discussion.
Good luck and enjoy clean records. 🎶🎶🎶
@Fat Rat lmao...of course...that's why vinyl brought you so much joy & today it's still your music medium of choice. 🔊
Have you bought that robotic Hoover for your records? You sleep it cleans. Can have your collection cleaned overnight (model dependant). Specials now on @ Godfrey's 👀
My local record store has a high end (4K€) ultrasonic cleaning machine and you can rent it (including fluids) for 20€ per Hour. After Covid, I will for sure go there and clean my LPs.
I like this dude! Totally had ADHD, but that's what makes it fun to watch sometimes!
Goodness the audio on your channel sounds great! Nice video sir
My 1st and only RCM is the Okki Nokki. The ability to "scrub" in 2 directions is great. I use an enzyme formula and allow the bubbles to sit for 30 secs before vacuuming. Sometimes it takes a couple cleanings to get a record 100% clean.
It's therapeutic.
Is your enzyme formula homemade or a retail one? Please share what it is.Thanks.
@@manjoguy L' Art Du Son.
Also ordered Tergikleen, heard good things. It's supposed lessen the surface tension of the distilled water and seep into the grooves......worth a try.
i'm very happy with my discwasher brush and fluid, but been told a few drops of de-ionized water on a lint free cloth works wonders.
Angry photographer also uses de-ionized water water for cleaning lenses. He prefers it to alcohol. Maybe because it does not leave any chemical when it dries out.
Yes, amazing difference!!!!
I repaired an Audio Desk ultrasonic and after hearing the improvement I wash all my records, I think that's enough to say
I know it sounds crazy, but when I buy a used record I clean it first with a brush discwasher etc, with record cleaner. Then after I play it once, use the discwasher again, you see even more dust come up. It's almost as if playing the record loosens all the dirt and dust. After that, just use a anti static brush every time I play it.
I use wood glue :)
That makes sense to me. But you wouldn't want to do that with a good stylus.
@@amb3cog this happens to even records that look clean with no scratches etc.
Planning to build my own ultrasonic washing machine, and prepare my own fluid for casual usage when the record is not too dirty, and apply my solution the traditional way: a discwasher type of brush and that is all.
The other machines, the manual ones, the vacuum ones, the glue plaster, the sink washing, etc. are more time consuming than the classic way, and to restore really old and dirty records, the ultrasonic machine will always be the first and last option.
I use a mini wet dry vac from Walmart with a 2hp motor. Fold a blue lint free cloth over the end of the tube , spray the record with favorite cleaner ( I use Phoenix) and run the cloth on vac hose around the record from outside in. Then I use distilled water with a felt brush as a last step. It works. That 2hp motor sucks that s..t up!
I have to say that Paul is the first person I've heard being really honest about all the faff and hassle of cleaning vinyl. It really is so much bother and hideously expensive- is it really cost effective to spend several thousand £/$ on such a machine to wash albums worth a mere fraction of that price? How often would you require to clean an album? Surely one deep ultrasound clean should be more than enough with out doing any real damage to the vinyl? Is it all a bit Emperor's new Clothes? An audiophile and his money is easily parted.... Currently I use the Degritter V2 Invisible and noiseless model. I have 100 to sell for $1000 each, instant delivery.
Paul, may I suggest you sales some money and time. I have a VPI HRX Pro and a VPI HW 16.5. I am finding the 16.5 is pretty good but it does not completely clean the junk. I have spent time on cleaning chemistry and immersion cleaners. Problem with immersion cleaners is they do not dry the disc. I have a Spin Clean used with Tergikleen added to distilled water. After the cleaning protocol the disc goes immediately onto a Record Doctor V for a both side drying process. This has advantage over VPI in that the record is submerged and swiped clean. Next the RD5 sucks off the fluid one side at a time. You are left with a clean dry disk that is ready to inspire you. That is something that my HW 16.5 does not approach. All this for $300. Ultrasonic cleaners are a ridiculous expense.
There are many reasons to be wary of ultrasound to clean vinyl. The frequency has to be correct as has the temperature. Get it wrong and you could damage the record. I think a good brush and vacuum system is the safest and works perfectly well to clean out the grooves.
Ultrasonic record cleaning is the only way to go. I put together a DIY ultrasonic system, with filtration (a must!!!), for less than $1,000 -- and the results are mind-blowing. IMO, nothing comes close to record cleaning like ultrasonic (must be careful; read up). It blows away standard cleaning machines/solutions and gets deep into the grooves, transforming and opening up the sound (even on new vinyl). However, standard record vacuums are useful as the final step, with distilled water, to remove any leftover detergent, etc., from the ultrasonic cleaning. Harry Weisfeld, the founder of VPI, has a thread on the internet -- and is a good place to start.
Label clamp, paint pad, distilled water, and homemade cleaning spray and I'm good.
The technology of ultrasonic actually works very well. In the very late1980s I was in college, studying commercial art; and cleaning a technical, or mechanical pen in a small cylinder with ultrasonic waves. The ultrasonic cleaner made for pens cleaned a mechanical pen more thoroughly then soap, and water. Therefore, as you have explained an ultrasonic record cleaning machine has go clean deep within a record's groove.
Cleaning used vinyl is a must without exception. I try to clean in batches. I know most would cringe but a microfiber and windex on a dollar store vinyl works fantastic.
I have a Record Doctor, but I'm on the market for something that doesn't require me to manually turn the record. Ultrasonic is the way to go, but unless you have a serious vinyl collection, that's too much to spend IMHO.
I've avoided but need clean 300 blursys by hand lol. Easy answer is clean after every use. Sad I learnt that after 300 blu-rays. Last time I gave them all a clean was about 2 years ago but after use I put each bluray case into a steel book plastic sealed case to keep 95% of dust and lint but can pick up slight dust or dirt in air taking from case to my player and back into case after.
Why did you buy blu-rays? Physical digital product? Weird.
@@rabarebra like having a movie collection. Same as people who collect records its to get best quality first.
I’ve purchased a spin clean. I was going to get a project cleaning machine but my local dealer convinced me to save my money and get the spin clean for now, since I have a small record collection and there is no need for the project unless I have hundreds of records. Hifonix in Birmingham, UK are fantastic. Can’t wait to go back once the covid-19 lockdown is lifted
The more I listen to Paul regarding this vinyl washing and read the comments down below … I get again confirmation that this whole vinyl thing is really something for fiddlers. And when an experienced user writes in the comments that 80%+ of all records have a piss-poor pressing which of course can’t be fixed by a washing machine….I am more than happy with my CD collection. If the recording there is done correctly they simply sound as good as it gets ( no inherent noise, dark black silent, best dynamics, easy handling, washing ? … only when bought used by giving them a quick wipe). …plus way cheaper on top of it currently! There was more than only one reason back then to replace this rather complicated and objectively and inherently imperfect „vinylly“ system. AMEN.
But you had to create a comment, didn't you?
@@rabarebra …definitely! It cannot be stressed enough!
Hi Paul, love your videos, I can vouch for the Audio Desk cleaner, very easy to use and totally transformed a record I thought was virtually unplayable. I don’t have one myself but use one at my local dealer.
Wish I knew someone that had one.
I would like to recommend the virtually unheard of Nessie Vinylmaster. Fully automatic and NOT ultrasonic, never seen anything else with those parameters before. Small German company, typical German quality, typically German terrible Marketing and sales. Never had any problems thus far, cleans great, obviously wont get rid of scratches. Could post a video if there are none available. The most important parameter in any cleaner imho is the quality of the vacuum, without a good one youre just smearing dirt.
Music Direct sells them. Very expensive, but they look well built.
I don't think that they are that much of a hassle but then I grew up with a Disco Antistat. Now THAT's a hassle.
Even the simple Okki Nokki that I own does a way better job than that, but having compared it to Clearaudio and Keith Monks machines, it's just a world of difference.
Honestly, if you are not too picky a damp micro fiber cloth and a clean kitchen towel will serve you well. When records are really dirty (like thrift shop records) it works a treat. But if you want to actuallly get in the grooves properly, the least you'll need is a vacuum machine, and ideally you'd have an ultrasonic one. So yes it'll get expensive.
My budget Knosti contraption gets the job done, albeit it can be a mess at times. I use different fluids for different cleaning tasks and thus far, it has yet to let me down.
I haven't been cleaning records as much as I used to. There have been some great Analog Production re-issues that sound great so I've been replacing some of my records. Expensive but worth it. I love putting my stylus down and hearing nothing till the music starts.
@Fat Rat But it doesn't sound as good.
It's not Ben Chia, it's a different Ben from Singapore. This Ben from Singapore's last name is actually Dover. ✌️
i found a 6 L ultrasonic cleaner for 199 bucks i made my own jig to hold the record works greatmakes them like new
Playing "clean" vinyl is a must in my opinion. Putting an unclean album on your presumably expensive (or not) properly set up turntable with an expensive (or not) cartridge is foolishness. Vinyl can and does sound superior to digital if the end user is will to put out some effort and follow reasonable best practices. If you're not willing to do that just play a CD or listen to streams. I for one enjoy the ritual of preparing and cleaning an album every time I decide to listen to it. I have a decent digital setup with Roon and Quobuz fed from a dedicated Small Green Computer setup and everytime I do an A/B of the same track on digital (stream, hard drive or CD) vs the same track on vinyl (amplitude matched), vinyl wins almost every time!! Vinyl is so velvety smooth and natural to my ears, with little to no listening fatigue. Peace.
I'm surprised how effective my pro ject vcs machine is. Some times it takes a few goes on difficult record s but it gets there.
Picked up a Spin Clean for a bit over $100 (I got the limited edition clear model with a big bottle of extra fluid, a spare set of brushes and extra drying rags) and I'll spend a nice leisurely weekend cleaning 20-30 records at a time before dumping and refilling the dirty water. The first time I clean a record, I toss any plain paper inner sleeves and use a Diskeeper 2.0 antistatic sleeve (MoFi inner sleeves work well too) or if there's a custom inner (with photos or lyrics) I slip that in the jacket by itself. I find this is only needed maybe once a year. In between I'll hit the record with my vintage Discwasher brush and a little D4 fluid before playing, although I'm almost out of the original D4 and I hear the RCA D4+ fluid is crap ("Discwasher" in name only.) I may need to find a suitable replacement for the original Discwasher D4 fluid soon.
Why would you move that D4 fluid and smear dust across and into the grooves with your antistatic brush?
As Paul stated cleaning records and using ultrasonic technology brings one closer to the music and artist but one needs to be careful when trying to clean records. First and foremost most cleaning agents and topologies do little to bring records to life. Having a shiny record with a film either air or vacuum dried onto the record does not improve sound. In the 70's Shure in developing their V15 cartridge noted issues with their stylus digging out a material they called the pressing oil. We call it a release agent. Shure documented how they tried in vain to remove this from the record's grooves. Added where noted dust particles that were welded or lodged in the release agent at the pressing plant as records are hot when they come out of the press were found to cause the unwanted pops heard in a new record. This said, indeed the effects of cavitation should see a positive effect on cleaning records, one would assume. . The problem with all processes and cleaning agents is where the charge of the record is the same as the charge of the water with or without a soap or agent applied. Thus the use of an ultrasonic and the plasma wave created by cavitation is actually repelled by the like charge of the vinyl record. The sonic Thus is limited to surface cleaning at best. So a process must be used where the charge of the record is temporarily changed to be opposite to that of water, so an audio enthusiast needs to do some added research. This said, many 40 khz and 120 khz ultrasonics advertised are not even ultrasonics, rather bubblers that agitate the water and do not follow the definition of cavitation. These machines use air drying to dry a record. If the release agent or pressing oil in fact has been removed, a record should come out of a process virtually dry and not needing air or vacuum drying which in itself creates other issues. Just see the use of an optician's micofiber lint free cloth to remove any remaining droplets. To determine whether an ultrasonic uses cavitation, one can build an aluminum record at home. The record should see the aluminum foil exit a machine whereby its entire surface should see the foil gently dimpled from the record's edge to the dead wax area. Many will be surprised where in fact no effects if cavitation is seen on the foil. No dimpling. In some cases major tears may be seen with some other processes if a resonance was not added to the baseline frequency to even out the generated cavitation. Added, ultrasonic theory also dictates the fact where in a 6 liter sized tank one cannot see more that 4 records benefit from the effects of cavitation as records that are very closely spaced see the effects of cavitation negated by reflected standing waves. If anything
Jerry Pournelle, once a columnist (among many other things) for Byte magazine, had a wonderful term: "infuriatingly excellent." If glitchy slushware memory serves me correctly he first used it to describe Vulcan, an early relational database program back in the ancient days of 8-bit microcomputers running under the CP/M operating system. Vulcan later evolved into dBase. I never used it myself, but it was reportedly the most capable relational database program then available for those archaic machines that fired the first volleys of the personal computer revolution. It was also reportedly a royal pain to use. This was also before the advent of that high tech 16-bit CD, when the 33-1/3 rpm LP ruled the roost. See there is a connection to this vlog.
Vulcan, also VOS, was an operating system that ran on Harris 100, 500, and 800 computers in the late 1970s and early 1980s. Vulcan, written by Wayne Ratlif, was also the name of the product that was marketed as dBASE II.
Question Paul : What brand turntable is this in the video❓Where can I find one❓ Thank you.
It is a VPI turntable.
in 40 years of playing around in this audio world the best record cleaner I have ever saw is called the compact disk!
fin screenname verry funny 😂
If yue use a compact disc you will scratch the vinel records. Plese dont not use its. use waters and the speshal cloths for its.
@@GiancarloBenzina If you think CDs degrade fast in sunlight, try leaving a vinyl record next to the window on a sunny day... ;¬)
At least vinyl isn't subject to CD-rot or anything similar...
@Fat Rat Yes, vinyl has no issues with CD-rot or anything similar.
The coating on CDs has a limited lifetime of about 70 to 80 years at most, because the chemical composition changes; no matter the way they're stored.
All issues of vinyl are related to handling/playback.
Dynamics of vinyl is very limited indeed, but it's not too uncommon that this bad property turns out to be a good one.
It means that vinyl can't be brickwalled, in contrast to optical media.
A proper mastering at CD always sounds better than a proper mastering at vinyl, unfortunately, they f*ck up the CD mastering too many times.
You don't need to spend a dime on a machine. Take your dirty record over to the sink, turn on the warm tap, get a clean wet sponge, put dish detergent on it and wipe around each side. Rinse thoroughly and lean it against a wall and let both sides air dry. This removes the loud pops stuck in the grooves from dirt mixing with finger oils. Never touch the grooves. It's all you need. I've never damaged a record or stylus ever. If you think this is a bad idea, you don't know what you're talking about.
You mention wax on the record groves. My question is how does wax get on a record. What type of wax? Artifacts from a burning candle?
Oh sorry I didn't see you there, I were just mending my fences.
Mold ? I use a Record Vac. PVC that attatches to my wet-vac. Spray my solution, little scrub, rinse ,done. Works great. $35
I used the Discwasher manual micro brush and cleaning fluid for years. It seemed to work pretty well for under $20.00 bucks, but I gave up on vinyl so I don't need to do that kinda stuff anymore.
Degritter is the best on the market!
Just bought the DEGRITTER after years using the VPI HW-27 and the difference is slight.. It's just easier to use the DEGRITTER..
I don't want to be an alarmist, but there is some degree of use with ULTRA SOUND that most people never think about: *ERASING YOUR DISK....* there have been some studies that suggest that the LITTLE BUBBLES might be scrubbing the MICRO GROVES off the Records.
2. The chemicals used to make water surface tension reduced might be HUMAN Harmful.
I've used white wood glue .. it peels off when dry and cleans 100%
a single record maybe...what if you need to clean 300 records or 3000? The glue takes off only the superficial and does not get in the grooves deep enough and certainly does not remove static electricity.
Paul if one spins vinyl record , clean 10 record in one half hour So, that is 20 in one hour. That is huge hours of perfect clean records
idk honestly cds work better for me... unfortunately there isn't a perfect medium coz some of my cds sound better than my vinyls .... i still get to go through the ritual of choosing what to play with cd's, but i find when i use a streamer i may actually run into more new music i didin't konw i wanted to discover so that is an advantage to streaming even if it might not be as hifi as cd... and yeah i'm not obessive enough to clean my records despite cherishing them
i like to keep things cheap and efficient. use for record cleaning, warm water, no cleaning chemicals, only a magic sponge (melamine). works magic. once a record is clean, do NOT use again the sponge, use only micro fiber towel and warm water. i like listening to wet records, it is fun :D
Hey Paul..can you say hello to Mike? He lives in Denver too! Thanks. Oh btw cleaning your records with a Spin clean or a Knosti works just fine!
Brushing and flossing is a total pain in the ass, too. Still do it.
I have never washed a record and all my records sound great.
I do audio preservation as a hobby, I preserve old media like vinyl records and I transfer them to compact disc, what is the best record cleaner to get for that?
Why would you spend all that time transfer vinyl to CD? 😂 You are aware that doesn't sound the same afterwards. It will depend on the stylus that YOU use, and many other factors - the AD converter. A vinyl record sounds like magic when played directly by your stylus, now talking $3000 stylus+RIAA system, not cheapo MM and RP1 turntable. Anyway, no matter how much you sample (read:transfer in your terms) will do anything magically.
Is this video a rerun? Hmm. Axpona has obviously been postponed and moved to August.
he records ahead in batches, there was a video recently where he explained plans for the channel in this time
@Fat Rat but...im explaining that its not a re-run...
@@Crokto Oh! Ok. This one must have been done recently, but before the whole virus outbreak. I can't seem to recall which video he explained their plan for videos. If you know which one that is let me know! Thanks!
@@sean_heisler just go to the channel's recent videos - audiophiles and music lovers are special
@@Crokto Thanks!
Records companies ought to ''wash'' the release compound'' and crap off the records before they are sold to the public. How much more difficult could it be since they charge 3x what a CD sells for? Imagine having to wash and gingerly handle a CD before it's played!
Klaudio ultrasonic vinyl cleaner this the only good washing Machine,and of a story.
I have a store with hi fi and know something about it
Just like vinyl records CDs need cleaned too. I used to have a CD cleaner that almost always improved the sound of CDs. I do have a VPI 16.5.
You can also wax your CD's with car wax. Helps with skipping. Even Armor-all works but for less time.
@@finscreenname Armor-all was what a lot of people were using and it tended to leave a film behind. I'll have to see if I can find whats left of the cleaner I used. It made new CDs sound better.
@Fat Rat Absolutely do NOT use rubbing alcohol to clean a CD. I destroyed a CD once doing that. It became all cloudy and the laser couldn't read through it.
@Fat Rat I can show you a quick and easy way to destroy a CD so it never plays again. I once tried to destroy a vinyl 45 but no matter what I did it was still at least party playable. I was just saying what I experienced and trying to warn people not to use rubbing alcohol.
@Anders Hammer it is only skipping you fix by cleaning. Digital bits doesn't sound different after cleaning the 0's and 1's. 😂
IS ULTRASOUND DON'T DESTROY THE RECORD ?
Paul, although you're very clearly an advocate of cleaning records, I'm a bit surprised that your presentation wasn't stronger - - - you mentioned lazy people and I'm definitely one of them, the KLAudio machine is a choice worth considering - (although I've heard KLAudio may not be producing one of their two offerings going forward) - - anyway, my primary comment is that yeah, depending on the play back system, a clean record could easily be compared to taking a step up in a cartridge - - in my own experience (for decades I've used a vacuum machine,we all know the one) obtaining an Ultrasonic machine took me by complete and unexpected surprise, nothing subjective about it - - an eye (ear) opening unveiling of detail and clarity getting me "closer to the music" and yes, the rest goes without saying in terms of fewer stray pops etc. - I personally think that a clean record goes hand in hand with any reasonably decent vinyl playback system, shouldn't have one without the other.
(for decades I've used a vacuum machine,we all know the one) ...No which one?
@@adotopp1865 Hello Ado Topp - sorry I didn't respond sooner, I'm referring to the The Record Doctor, and no, I don't have the VI - I have one from two generations back and for anyone reading this, it's, in my opinion, well worth having and does a more than reasonable job - combine it with "Last" and you've got yourself a very good record cleaning set up, and yeah, I know there's "Last" haters out there (I'm definitely not one of them) but regardless, I personally only use it in combination with the "Doctor" - - I'm currently using the KLAudio and was inspired to comment because of Paul mentioning the "hassle", there is no hassle at all with the KL and the results are truly what I described prior - - is it as good as, for example, the Audio Desk, or the DeGritter? I can't honestly say, although I would expect the machines with brushes AND ultra sonic capabilities would present a cleaner "looking" record, but even serious reviews by the usual magazines don't seem to express big differences in resulting sound of all of these types of ultrasonic machines - however, the hassle gets a bit bigger in that they require "solution mixes" and the occasional changing out of the brushes - - the KL is de-ionized water only, no mixing, no brushes - it's ridiculously easy to occasionally change the water - to use it, just drop the record in, don't even have to push a button, when complete, take the record to the turntable, couldn't be any easier - and yes, there IS a filter in the machine. The bit about the size of water molecules vs the grove size and such may be a factor, I can only speak to what I know through my experience, hearing is believing, I'm not exaggerating the results I talked about. My thing is the same as Paul's, I don't want to hassle around and even the Record Doctor presents a "process" . Hope this helps, Thanks, Skip.
@@skip1835 The Moth RCM works on a similar principle to your Record Doctor. I would recommend you try the Art du Son record cleaning fluid . It works very well , records play with massively reduced surface noise on good records reduced to zero and more dynamics I think . I used to make my own solution with pure distilled water ,isopropyl alcohol and a drop of washing up liquid, but the difference means no more home made soln.
@@adotopp1865 Thanks Ado - I'll check it out - - but I have become a big believer in the Ultra Sonic type machines since I purchased the KLAudio - - - Skip ( :
i have been buying records since 1981. I have never ever sprayed a record with a fluid or used a brush. I also do not own any record with pops,clicks,skips and other kaboodledandy. Occasionally i clean the needle.
What do you use to clean your stylus?
@@Majs7420 He probably dips it in his pre-c#m.
they work. understand though, there are many cleaning solutions.
CD did not kill the vinyl, dirt kills it.
Paul, please add a 'limiter' to your lapel mike recording apparatus, the volume differences when you speak, and above all when you literally yell into it goes into distortion, not only uncomfortable to listen to. Thanks.
@Lloyd Stout You ARE joking .. right??!
a bit demanding?
@@adotopp1865 ?????
@@zoltangz You make demands yet you should only make suggestions based on your thoughts . It comes over a bit rude.
@@adotopp1865 Obviously you do not know the difference between a REQUEST and a DEMAND!!
My first cleaning device was a Spin Clean, and I had records that were absolutely transformed after using it, where a veil was lifted off the music. Even my wife, who does not care one bit about sound quality, exclaimed 'wow'. Those records were further improved by running them through an ultrasonic cleaning bath. Even new records sound better after ultrasonic, I could not really hear any improvement on new records using the Spin Clean. Drooling over the Degritter, but three thousand bucks is a lot of money!
This guy's a purveyor of the equipment that he is showing you. He is a well trained and seasoned salesman. Let's not forget that a salesman sold Japan on having a nuclear power plant in a Sunami Ridden Area. If he is selling it, you better believe he will have a justification for you to buy it. If a record is too dirty to play, buy a new record. An album should never be left out to gather enough dirt to justify ckeaning.
@Fat Rat , This is Wendy's hubby, Anyway, I was 16 and drunk and looking for a song track on the lp label on a spinning record which led to a record that needed a thorough cleaning. It was obviously replaced due to acidic damage. Thanks for reading us.
I have 2 friends with vast and immaculate record collections that they clean with skill and built for it tools. Yup, it works quite well done right... That said, I'm cheap and lazy, so I made my own record cleaning solution and use simple inexpensive brush and wipers... my record 'collection' is not worth more effort...
I'm laughing because I thought: this is when a guy born in the analog world has definitely crossed over into digital - when he has to think to remember that 33-1/3 refers to revolutions per MINUTE.
Of course you can hear it , especially on 4:45 we can hear your finger wiggling in the grooves hahahhaha , sorry , but that finger needs to be cleaned . Now serious : I tried it a few times , but also, it is time consuming and I'm also a bit lazy.
Minute 1:38 rocks
Ended the vinyl thing in 83, xoxoxoxo
10mmgee20 45’s 1969 , 8 track 1972 , Cassettes in 1976 , 10 1/2 reel to reel 1986
( it was so 😎) and LP’s ( or to be hip Vinyl ) in 1987
Yeah. Ultrasonic not ultrasound and no they don’t do a good job, they do a perfect job in specific occasions and setup for specific dirt structure, only. the other machines are equally needed for other dirt types or at least for pre-wash, as ultrasonic does degrade your records, impact depending on how you use them.
Oh, no news on that front - if using one is a pain in the a… how much would be a process of using 2 in a repeat application be a pain, yessss. Too much and no easy way out, there, yet. Don’t propose Humms and Birds, I’m talking about a proper cleaning and/or restoration process, not a wish wash, and dirt redistribute.
A clean record is a Lot better than a dirty one, but a machine is more trouble than it is worth.
Properly used (which is easier said than done), a Discwasher brush is good enough for me.
Brushes do help with the ticks and pops , but a better quality cleaning machine will reveal greater richness of tone you can not imagine and improved dynamics .Not subtle . You are right that they are more trouble than they are worth , but necessary for that sound you hoped for , closer to professional tape sound .
Only if you spend at least 10.000 bucks and only after a specific and deep scientific research...