There are no honest characters in Tekken 8. Ok, maybe Kazuya (the stupid laser doesn't count). Every character can be a toxic piece of shit in the hands of the right player. And every character can be honest if the person playing wants it.
Every character who is still hard to play is honest, even if their 50/50 potential is annoying sometimes. Dragunov, King & Law are a disappointment after T7. Dragunov is not honest because of his easier combos and huge damage on Heat Smash. King is not honest because of his Jaguar Sprint throw and Power Crush. And if Law’s DSS input was still the old one I would respect the character, despite his very damaging 50/50.
Character honesty relies on how difficult a character is to counter. You have strong characters with moves that are difficult to work around (Dragonov, Feng, Jin) , and tricky lab characters that you need to study before you can actually effectively play against them. (Xiaoyu, Nina, Bears)
Idk about honest cus I'm biased and most characters have cheap stuff, but in my experience there are certain characters who are just played by better players. Like for example, whenever I encounter a Victor or Eddy, they literally almost always dumb and braindead, but like 95% of the Lili players I encountered had fundamentals and patience. It's interesting.
Agreed! When the community makes tier list, and someone is considered S ranked, essentially what's being said is that this character has the easiest tools to abuse at a high lvl. Notice I never said the easiest tools to execute because there's a difference. Well in some cases at least lol.
The concept of an honest character is nebulous at best, but I can say with 100% certainty that Yoshimitsu is one of the most dishonest fighting game characters of all time, and I love him for it.
No character in this game is honest. That's the point. The problems always start when people say "MY" Character is honest because [insert reason] but YOUR character is dishonest because [Insert reason]. The reason's are almost irrelevant. The second you imply that your wins are based on skill but others' wins are based on [dishonesty] - you have chosen war. The sooner people realise that every character in this game is capable of some despicable robbery, the better.
@@ulurius See? This is what I mean. my character is honest because [my strings are easy to block] but your character is dishonest because [your strings are hard to block] As if the outcome of matches are determined exclusively by how hard strings are to block 🤣 T7 akuma didn't have any complicated strings either. Was he honest? Asuka's strings are pretty standard and short too. Is she honest? No. Akuma wasn't honest because [insert reason here] but my character is honest because [insert reason here]. We can do this all day...
This comes from Mishima mains most of the time especially hardcore tmm fans, the delusion and sense of superiority is absurd from those types of players
Mishimas arent honest. Wavedashing isn't honest, having to gamble guess 50/50s throughout the whole round isn't honest. And that's fine, I don't think kazuya and devil Jin need nerfs (fuck Jin though). Azucena for example is garbage tier imo and I still don't think she is honest in any way. Kazuya players need to stop the circlejerking and the gaslighting.
It's just the mishima mains who are obsessing over the term. I guess they need some validation for their slow progress. I never hear bryan or steve mains pushing this narrative even though mishima mains think steve and bryan are more honest.
Play Kazuya and you will immediately see why the creator of the vid thinks he's honest. It sucks not having panic moves to evade attacks or simply get people off of you. So what you end up doing is relying more on patience and movement to work your way out of the opponents pressure. Sure his vortex can be seen as "dishonest" but the reality is everyone knows this about Kazuya, it's not a surprise. That being said, I love playing him even when I lose because the dopamine of winning with Kaz is unreal and this is coming from a long time Lee player.
@@matrxzeno4761maaaan you just gave me what I needed to continue playing him. I’m a regular joe tryna get good man but it’s discouraging af gettin beat tf up lmao there’s no panic button lmao
This is the best take. I think for most people what level of bullshit makes a character dishonest for them is different. Like i don't concider simply having a 50/50 dishonest. Everyone has 50/50s. But some characters have a focus on just forcing 50/50s and looping them (Like marduk and Kazuya) so for me thats the level of bullshit that makes me concider them dishonest. (I play both these characters btw)
@@ezekieljohnson8345no it’s a trash take. That’s legit what people mean with honest. If a character doesn’t have a lot of bullshit, he is honest, if he has a lot of bullshit, he is a cheap character.
Agreed with the conclusion that honesty is a worthless thing to discuss in T8 but heavily disagree with the "who cares" argument at the end. Letting people cry and spew misinfo about characters and character strength leads to a toxic online environment in this game. We already have a epidemic of people plugging on you online, refusing to rematch and sending hate on posts and whispers because of preconceived notions about a character. You should care if you want the community to be a place where people can actually enjoy playing whatever character they want.
you described it just right, great job. the game has went beyond the meaning of honest since everything is op ig u could say everything is not honest. i'd like to describe this term as an unbalanced game.
@Iamirooni The problem there is in all honesty 8 is more balanced than prior games. The gap between the weakest character in 8 (imo devil jin) to the strongest char (imo nina) isn't that gigantic and isn't as large as the gaps that were in prior games. I'd also go so far to say that the strongest characters in this game aren't as busted as prior games. I think current 8 players would tear their hair out if there were still 6-8 hit TODs.
This is the video the entire tekken community needs to watch. Since I’ve picked up tekken 8, I’ve had to slowly lower the amount of time that I engage with fellow players because it’s almost nothing but whiny bullshit and hate. I continue to play the game and have fun with it but I refuse to discuss it with others for the sake of my mental health lol
Boogard mentioned no other community is like this, but I'm from smash and it's way worse there. It kind of sucks moving away from a game to another and seeing the same stuff, but T8 is actually an amazing game at the end of the day.
I think an aspect of “dishonest” characters that got passed up is the fact that some character have extremely long strings that are generally safe/hard to avoid and can often force you into a 50/50 situation where you can lose a ton of life. You essentially never get a turn to fight back. Characters that come to mind immediately that have this archetype is Xiaoyu, Nina, Reina, Zafina, Alisa, and King. It seems like a majority of these characters key moves/strings are safe on block/plus on hit or they force a mixup situation where you’re constantly on the defense. And if you manage to steal your turn they have more than enough panic moves to take their turn back
IMO , there is no “honest” character . Every character got some type of gimmick whether in heat or not . Some gimmicks are stronger than others . It makes the game very enjoyable. Of course I’m speaking as Mishima player .
Lot people don't realise how broken some characters on tekkan 7 was, marduk, Geece were a nightmare and have literally death combos. 80% health gone was possible tekkan 7. People like riding nostalgia, but the hard fact is tekkan 8 Is the most balanced game compared to the others.
I've always considered an honest character to be one that wins without deception, and in Tekken 8, there isn't a single character that does that. Every character has some sort of combination of 50/50s, plus frame moves to deceive you into attacking, or evasive/confusing animations. Deception is baked into every single character, and people who argue about which characters are honest are just malding about the characters they don't use.
IMHO a honest character is a character who doesn't rob you once you know the matchup. No bs 50-50 snowball into another 50-50 into another 50-50 into another 50-50, no unbreakable throws, no guard breaks, no constant on block 50-50. If you know the matchup, the character is harmless and it's on the opponent to outplay you.
It was my understanding that Jack-8 and Shaheen being honest was agreed upon by 100% of the community, but this video really made me wonder and think about this interesting topic. The fact that I could only think of two characters made me realize how hard it is to be considered honest.
@abdulkarimelnaas7595yeah, it definitely feels like Jack is the furthest thing from honest, when im playing against him lol. He’s probably honest at high levels, i just suck at the match up
@@ericfreackif you’re referring to TJU which is one of if not the hardest move to pull off in the game then if the player can do it then he’s literally just better than you 😂
For me, I think the term honest when thinking of the changes characters went from T7 to T8 that eliminated character weaknesses and identity. For example, Jin and Kazuya, the staple "honest" and hard to use characters of T7. Jin's weakness was that he didnt have the best okizeme and most of his moves didn't crush very well, but made up for it by having very good neutral control. Kazuya had an amazing 50/50 and vortex with knockdowns, but this mixup required a lot of mindgames to implement, he had poor pokes and was vulnerable to rushdown. T8 gave Jin a counter hit launching high crushing near-tracking low that flipped grounder opponents, while Kazuya got a plus frame mid that allowed him to mix up from standing, db1, 2 an i13 mid, mid move that heat engages (even if its launch punishable, the first hit is often used like a poke) d1+2 which is fast, crushes highs and counter hit launches. Its changes like these I feel are the source of frustration for so many legacy players who are used to playing around the weaknesses and identities of established characters more than anything tldr a lot of characters removed core weaknesses of characters also removing their counterplay and identity making players frustrated
This is what I was looking for, these are the same characters but not the ones we grew up with now there is new issues to deal with and we’re not all that ok with it
tekken is a knowledge based game. If you don't know how to deal with something you'll get frustrated because there's nothing you could do, if you do know how to deal with something and messed up because of bad fundamentals (pretty much what you listed at 1:00 ) then you'll believe it was honest and blame yourself for the loss. The problem with this is because tekken is a knowledge based game with each character having 100+ moves, unless you dedicate your life to it, most of the times you lose and get frustrated you'll feel it's unfair and complain about it and the character. Here's where the definition of honest varies because you'll have different experiences and different levels of knowlege so what you know how to deal with someone else won't, making the definition entirely opinion based and because if you know the ins and outs of every move (for example those annoying strings are usually highly punishable) then most things are fair. Bottomline is pretty much the same as what you said at the end of the video, unless you're part of that 0.1% of high level tournament players who know the game in and out, the term "honest" is entirely subjective. This comment just delves into where that subjectivity comes from. I still hate Alissa tho
i used to hate facing certain characters but honestly people have to be their worst enemy in this game in order to figure out how to approach them better. the only problem with this game in my opinion is that its a “little” to agressive and dosent punish characters enough for throwing all their combos out. if theres something defensive for the heat, i think this game will be a masterpiece
Honest is when there's a counter tactic to a move. If there is none then people will spam it over and over again (like Azucena's while running move that was nerfed).
Imo, an honest character's kit relies on fundamentals over character specific strengths. Overall I think character honesty is on a spectrum. It depends on how difficult the matchup is to counter either because its a tricky character to counter or one that's just oppressively strong with little counter play. Every character can have an honest playstyle, it just relies on who your playing against and at what level.
Yes there is such thing as an honest character bruh! victor has no place in tekken Idc what no one says with these analysations!! guns in tekken is unacceptable 👎🏾
@@yellowscarlightningscream8347 Tf has this comment got to do with anything lil folks!! we are talking about un honest character's in general it don't matter what game or how long ago it was ! and yes!! those mf characters you named are un honest as hell!!
As a Claudio main sitting in blue ranks I do agree that a chunk of my early success only came from me spamming random starburst moves. Now I struggle to climb as I need solid fundamentals to beat most people. However I am still learning as a play and enjoying my time so this is the good type of struggle.
I'd say "honest" characters are ones you HAVE to lab properly to play, Lee, Kazuya, Bryan, Steve. if you can mash and somehow do a 70 damage combo without labbing its dishonest.
If you are talking about db 1,4 its very linear, easily steppable and pretty slow , using it as a panic button does not work for your favour , atleast in higher ranks
Kazuya has been the 50/50 slot machine Vegas casino gameplay character since 1995 bro what are you smoking? What about being heavily punished for GUESSING wrong is honest?
@@shaghilathar3588 ff2, (accidental) df2, oki and delayed timings exist. Also the risk reward between ff3 and hellsweep (with ssl out of the picture) is famously one of the few high dmg mixes that is in kazuyas favour since the ff3 is so safe
@@ericfreack Ff2 is extremely linear, df2 is -12 and delayed timings are the whole mind game in the first place which isn't casino. Also you can't remove SSL from the picture as it's a 3D game, that alone makes the 50/50 against kazuya
I think people overcomplicate trying to convince others that their character is hard/easy/honest, yada yada. I just play who I like and try to not to complain about character I don't like fighting. It's hard sometimes but complaining doesn't help you get better IMO
I think a lot of players actually use "dishonest" to describe the bullsh*t moves they don't like. As you said for Claudio, he's a honest character but has access to quite bs moves while in heat. Same with Paul that I hate myself, he's honest even if I do think some of his strings are bs. In the end, you can say whatever you want about a character being honest or not but it also depends if the player decides to play it honest.
Kazuya is a character that relies on creating scenarios that let you basically gamble. In no way is Kazuya a honest character other than when you actually work to enforce the 50/50 but once you get it it creates a vortex of guessing games. Guessing games are not "fundamentals", they are flipping coins and quite literally the epitome of removing as much skill from the equation as possible. The only skill 50/50s can reward is reading patterns but at the end of the day its just a coin flip. The best example of a honest character would have to be one that does not have a vortex. Everyone in the game has 50/50s so the reason Kazuya isn't honest isn't because of his 50/50 its specifically because the 50/50 leads to continued guessing games. Other characters like Sheheen has a 50/50 but this doesn't create a vortex where you have to guess again after guessing wrong. Also just because you think a character isn't honest doesn't mean you hate them. You don't have to hate a character to think they aren't honest. I played most of the roster in tekken 7 and several characters i like are NOT honest characters. Also execution has nothing to do with honesty. Akuma is one of the most execution heavy characters in tekken period while also being the most dishonest character in every sense of the word. Tons of panic moves gimmicks and evasive tools all while letting you put someone in a blender of guessing games even if they guess correctly. Also for the record. I completely disagree that the convo is unhelpful. Everytime i talk with someone about what is or isn't dishonest it turns into a productive discussion about the properties of the move or character they are complaining about. The discussion of WHY something is dishonest is at its core a discussion of the games objective data. It may be heavily biased and people get emotional. But to anyone reading this next time you think a move or character is dishonest you should see it as a learning opportunity to figure out how to counter said thing and why its strong(if its even strong at all). Also the idea that something is strong automatically makes it dishonest i think is a pretty bad take. It falls into the mindset of simply calling something dishonest because you don't like it and stops you from going into the nuances of why its strong. For example Steve in tekken 7 was very honest. A character purely about timing,poking,movement and whiff punishment. Any strong quality from him came from the reward of him catching your timing and had clear and easily recognizable counter play for anyone that isn't literally a complete newbie even if they didn't know the Steve matchup.
This is so weird to me coming from anime games. A character being honest has always been a demerit for their competitive viability the same way being slow or having poor reversal options would be. You never see people brag about winning with a character with low range or something, so why fixate on whether your character can mix someone or not?
As a DLC main in Smash (Joker, though when you think about it he’s not actually all that gimmicky and cheesy. Arsene can be ridiculous, but it’s more balanced than people seem to imply. He just has the stigma of being top tier DLC), I 100% agree with you that the term “honest” needs to be dropped. I’m not cheesing you by playing my character the way he’s supposed to be played. You’re the one who picked a heavy. If you can’t handle top tiers play one yourself, or if you don’t like that then play another game. If you’re whining about pay-to-win, you’re just coping - only 3 of the top 10 characters in Smash are DLC. See how much the argument for someone calling me cheap falls apart when you think about it? There’s nothing wrong with playing mid or even low tiers, but that’s your choice. If you think they can’t handle the top tiers, you made the choice to play them. Even if you want to make the pay-to-win argument, it falls apart when you actually look at the tier list. Yeah, Steve is #1, but Sonic, G&W, and Snake fill spots 2-4. Stop calling your opponent cheap when you lose - in Smash, Tekken, or any other game. There’s always an element of “your fault” every time you lose. Obviously you aren’t expected to learn every detail of every matchup before you go online, but that does mean that you WILL be cheesed. But when you think about it, you could’ve chosen to learn about Alisa’s chainsaw move frame data, as one example. But wait! Now you’ve spent too much time learning matchups and not enough time learning fundamentals, and are losing the matches against good players. Now you’re just winning the same number of matches you were before, but it feels even less rewarding since you’re only beating the players relying on gimmicks. Being able to play the game at a high level takes time. You’re not becoming a master in a day. When improving, you will fall short somewhere. I chose to focus on fundamentals instead of matchups when I started playing Tekken. Did I lose to gimmicks and knowledge checks? Yes. But did I lose to players who also were focusing on fundamentals? Not always. Eventually, after I have a good handle on my fundamentals (which will be a while since I still don’t have a main), I’ll get around to the matchups. But I can’t get angry at people when I myself chose not to worry about matchups. Sadly, Tekken is a bit pay-to-win, as you can’t do Practice with DLC characters you don’t have (aka the reason why low tiers were infested with Eddy when he came out and are now infested with Lydia), but hopefully they find a solution eventually
I was thinking no bs standing grab buttons (unless it's a follow through in a combo.) No juggles just ground bounces, and of course no heat or super move bs to stop the whole fight. I play without juggles and grabs and win still. Just gets harder when the opponent doesn't. Makes my forced realism play more rewarding.
When I think a character is not honest, I go and play that character, and then see how well I do in a short amount of time. For example, I wasn’t a fan of Bryan, so played him, didn’t have an easy time, now he’s my main.
Honest is a great term at higher level play that helps express a lot of ideas in describing a character. Lower levels not so much. Easy and hard are not great either. I think Straightforward vs Complex and High (skill) Floor vs Low (skill) Floor work better
I'd say so Nothing in Leo's kit is particularly egregious or abnormal. His toolkit is very well-rounded IMO, which is at the same time a blessing and a curse. It's not as if Leo *lacks* anything, but rather that nothing in his kit really breaks the rules of the game in the same way that, say, Xiaoyu AoP does. Probably the most egregious thing in his kit is qcf 2, 1 beating most oki options, but even that doesn't deal a TON of damage. You're not winning any rounds with Leo *solely* on the back of qcf 2, 1.
Honestly this question like a Paradox of sorts you're right but you're right at the same time and to actually find the "right" answer is to literally go high level but then you realise that most just stays at the casual side so in a sense you can't really gauge it you could say. More so just literally enjoy the game and if it's bs for you then it's bs then try to understand the character a bit or even play it to see how it works. Because hey if you ain't going anywhere with your current character might as well check the ones that's been giving you a hard time.
Sounds like ppl need to invest in practice mode. Tekken has added replay tips to help ppl learn not to get abused and spammed in this game. Use it or they’ll take it out. You can’t do much about iwr(instant while running) moves however
I think what confuses people about the whole honest/dishonest discourse is that there are two philosophies about this topic 1) gameplay/risk reward school: a charachter is honest if the gameplay has a clear execution and counterplay, and thus an appropriate risk reward factor, this is the option where kazuya is a super honest character because he has a clean counter play and high risk reward, meaning that if you get caught its your fault not mine, but at the same time Feng is dishonest because he can do just about everything without static or clear counterplay "just play better" typa deal 2) the straightforward/fundamental school: Where kazuya is dishonest because he play around big dmg launches, around coinflip 50/50s and oki that very gimmiky to get out off, all of these tools combined can snowball a round and make it feel like kaz "stole" that round, but at the same time Feng is the honest character because while he has mix, he relies on pokes, punishes and clean play to beat the opponent, giveing people ways to counter and play at every touch, but has to work a bit more to enforce straight 50/50s. Imo the truth is in the middle and both chools of thought are wrong. Imo how "honest" a character is, is dependent on how much you have to you have to deviate form the games fundamentals to play against that character, example: Kaz and Feng are both very honest characters, both can be dealt with by using strong fundamentals, sidestep, block punish and wake up options, how you counter kazuya, are FUNDAMENTALS, but also reaction, steps, shutting down pokes, spot ducking and correctly block punishing, how you counter feng, are fundamentals. Dishonest characters are characters like xiaoyu, yoshi, bears, and raven, characters that have unique tools and mixups that force you to adapt to those specifinc tools and adopt answers outside what classic fundamental tekken is. Btw the same concept of "if it forces you to play a different way, its dishonest" can be applied to other games Sol, ky, sin - honest Asuka, zato, pot - dishonest Ken, ryu, kammy -honest Zangief, manon, honda - dishonest
Counterpoint: Classic fundamental tekken IS adopting character specific answers for character specific situations. Thats why its a 100+ Moves per char game. Thats why its considered a legacy/knowledge based game above other fgs. Characters having matchup defining moves that force you to adopt new and unique strategies is the whole appeal
Great video man realistically if you lab the dumb shit you run into you online or in a tournament you dwindle down what is cheap/dishonest. People for some reason don’t realize that learning knowledge checks & understanding your character completely are more important than anything, start incorporating the replay system when someone spams the same move dogging on ya instead of raging, learn how do deal with these setups because every character has something that can take you by surprise it’s not easy but it pays off like crazy.
I think the reason why People don't consider Kazuya honest is that he has a 50/50 into what could be a 100 Dmg juggle but more commonly it's 70 and with the frame advantage you get with the electric you're force to duck, therefore taking a juggle anyway. This is around Fujin level so it obviously changes depending on rank.
Kazuya doesn't have true 50/50s besides heat dash/engager. All his options after knockdown have a form of counterplay besides blocking low/mid. Kazuya hate is usually seen predominantly in low level play, as mid to high level Kazuyas get slaughtered 70% of the time.
To clean this all up, I'll say this: THE PLAYERS ARE HONEST, THE CHARACTERS REPRESENT AN EXTENSION OF THE PLAYERS. SOME PLAYERS HAVE MULTIPLE EXTENSIONS.
People dislike opponent’s strong 50/50 mixups. Whether it’s a wakeup mixup between hellsweep and safe mid launcher or a forced string or stance mixup, they feel it’s cheap since they have to guess. People really hated Fahkumram standing 3 string mixups as it was a fast long range mid with countless of string followups. They blocked and still had to take a mixup. Same with Reina ff2 and Lidia ff2 on block. They get a forced stance mixup. And you can’t even backdash away to avoid these long range mids that start a mixup. At lower ranks cheese is the main reason people think some character is dishonest. Usually these are moves/strings that are weak to sidestep, duck or low parry, but if you don’t know the weakness you have to take a mixup afterwards. And opponent can usually loop this. If these players continue playing, their opinion will eventually change as they learn to punish cheese like this hard. But most people are red ranks or below. They don’t yet know how to beat cheese. People also consider moves that ”steal turn” unfair. Leroy/Asuka parry, Paul’s evasive shoulder, Feng’s kempo, power crush heat engagers, Yoshi flash, etc. They press a quick safe mid check at plus frames and still lose. Feels unfair.
Zafina is a very honest character IMO. Been using her since T6 and I can tell that especially now she doesn’t have all of these crazy super damaging moves that take no effort to pull off. Doesn’t have crazy movement like say Lars does. And she has very clear openings in her strings. It takes a real good player to master Zafina. Been faithful to her for more than a decade atp. And I can tell. She’s definitely been toned down since T7 and her good tools have been nerfed or straight up taken away.
Lard and Lee Main here and the i know those two are very different Playstyles but in my opinion the biggest Problem in Tekken 8 comes with the heat. Thats were characters get there "extra stupid" moves and Combos. Lee gets every perfect Timing for free and lars gets that sprint ( which was way more op before Patch 1.05). Thats when the crappy Shit beginns in my opinion. I know its Part of the Game but Sometimes i Wish there would be a Gamemode without Heat and rageart. And your right. As soon as you IT Like raijin or kisin the people know the matchups and the gimmiks and then its Not that "easy" to abuse some moves
I don't know if it's because I'm too much or a scrub or if going to weeklies and playing people face to face helps but I don't find anyone dishonest I kind of just go "aww darn I could have had that"
Reina doesn't have strong lows. Kazuya has strong lows but super simple and predictable gameplay. Reina has many tricks up on her sleeves. Still with weak lows she is more formidable than kazuya
@@tristanherb49i main this dude and he ain’t honest a bit hahaha this dude has a billion setups that just delete you without knowledge he ain’t cheap but he definitely isn’t honest hahaha
@@ranges787has a billion setups that are hard to pull off, has one of the worst dmg outputs, has terrible launcher punishes if its not a counter hit, bad lows slow lows. Ngl i can go for alot more but ill stop
I started my tekken journey maining kazuya. I can say hes quite honest, you know whats coming once he gets going. Last week I started playing Reina and about two days ago I saw a great jump in my performance; I can say with all certainy she is very dishonest; sometimes not even I know what im going to do, but it works and it allows me to adapt on the fly. I feel bad for my opponent though...... Most dont stand a chance.
Then that means no one is honest. Kaz has a very simple gameplay and defined weaknesses. He has little to no gimmicks and annoying strings and That's what makes a character honest in my opinion, a gameplay with strengths and weaknesses with no gimmicks.
@@Timethyclicketh The hellsweep was one of the first moves I thought to myself was bullshit when playing Tekken. Then I looked up how to beat it and the answer was lol you have to guess. Doesn't sound so honest to me.
@@KO9596 Some characters have homing hellwseeps, but Kaz has bad tracking on his so sidestepping left is another option though a good Kazuya player will shut down your sidestepping. You can opt sidestep left unless in situations like after his b2,4, df2 wall combo which makes you unable to sidestep. They're much better than Law and Shaheen slides let me tell you that much, At least a blocked hellsweep kills your opponent.
@@Timethyclicketh kazuya does have many gimmicks, way more than shaheen for example. And people don't consider shaheen honest. It is just the kazuya players who are obsessed over this term.
Really, Honesty is very difficult to really gauge in Tekken 8 due to the inclusion of Heat. Some have already noted that it's really a spectrum and the character and matchup makes the difference. What I will say is that certain characters kinda fit the mould better than others in the 'Honest' chart due to the focus on fundamentals over use of characters with overwhelmingly difficult to overcome pressure or particular gimmicks or tools that are difficult to counter. It doesn't really make sense however that this'd be a term that a casual or intermediate level player should use, I feel that people who fit Pro or at minimum High Level play can get away with using it. In a possibly controversial take, I do believe that Paul is among the more 'honest' characters, and furthermore even Kazuya would fit that. It's arguable that Paul does a LOT of damage but his current toolset is all about timing and conditioning, whereas Kazuya's 50/50 while fast, requires good execution and in many cases are all or nothing.
Honest in Tekken is very subjective, for me all the characters that don't have an embarrassing pressure like Dragunov, Nina, Jin but also Alisa chr is totally safe everything he does or Victor who is stupidly simple to use and totally broken. I could probably also put King in this list but in my opinion he still remains below those mentioned above, the others are honest because even having strong points they have a precise way of being countered
There are no honest characters, just honest players in my eyes. It makes coping with getting blown up by some bullshit online much healthier. Which is honestly something I wish more people did, because if I had a nickel for every time theres been a weird tension in the friend group over character choice I could stop job hunting right now.
Rule of thumb There is no such thing as a honest character unless you're playing a mirror match & even then I'd argue it's still not honest but at least you both know what is going on. If you're playing fighting games, their is no such thing as honest. Every character has their cheese / gimmicks. Just depends who is more cheesy then the other.
Haven't seen a vid from you in a bit. About character "honesty", I can say that anyone saying Shaheen isn't honest, just sucks at the game. He has the smallest, most predictable move list-lost some moves from T7 ffs-has the least options in heat of any character, and wins off of conditioning the opponent the whole game. Plus the devs deleting his only "gimmick" if you can call it that, the whole jump around like a frog and spam the slide/hopkick mix he had at launch. Kazuya is far from honest, and I'm tired of hearing that from everyone. Nobody playing him relies on perfect electrics and movement, just as nobody spamming King in this game knows the chain throws. These characters have low-skill filth that can carry them. Lastly, Kazuya definitely has panic moves (CH d/f 2) is a ridiculous get off me move that I WISH Lars still had...
Yeah, see, the issue with your definition of "honest" is that the majority of the community that copes by using the term HATES Ling for her ability to avoid some mids with AoP, and moves with evasion properties are a core fundamental part of Tekken since the very first one. At the end of the day, it's a stupid term used to deflect blame for losses. It's big cope, and nothing more. "Honest" simply means "my main" most of the time and "dishonest" tends to mean "anything that confuses me." It should become even more clear how useless the term is when you consider that character selection, deciding which character to put your time into, IS A SKILL and it's one of the more important ones.
I just play whatever interests me the most, kazuya and steve are my mains because i think their really cool. They are very frustrating sometimes but i would not main anyone besides them
There is no such thing as honest or dishonest characters. There are characters, and you pick which one you want to play. This concept is imaginary and inconsequential. Folks not complaining about it and just playing the game more would help them out more.
In Terms of "easy" and "hard" chars, the saying from framewhisperer always comes to mind: "In tekken, hard characters are usually good, which makes them easy. Easy Characters are usually bad, which makes them hard"
I see Kazuya as the Yasuo in League of Legends ; the character is OP, has many tools for him but is mainly hindered by the player's skill, that's why Yasuo in LoL has low winrate compared to other champions but is hated and is frustrating to play against... (That's my view of a former LoL player, he may have changed since)
If he was OP he would have a spammable df1 and get out of jail fast crush move like every other character has. If he did, he would actually be OP, like Tag 1 Devil.
@@KamDaMan2007 df4 isn't spammable because it's -9 on block so your turn is over. When you have a df1 that's like -1 or -3 on block you can pop it, side step, or double tap it to keep the opponent in check. Totally different.
I think getting knowledge checked in tekken just feels WAY worse than most other fighting games, since the movelist is so huge per character, and there are a lot of strings. If you get hit by something you havent seen in other FGgames, you can just document it. The character may have 2-3 things like this. However, in Tekken, each character could have 10+ annoying knowledge checks. Luckily most players only know about 5-20 moves for their characters lol.
Nah Whiffing moves on purpose to bait the opponent into pressing their luck when they *know* your string isn't done is a pretty straightforward and fairly common strat. If you can get a read on what the other guy will do/how he'll finish his string and/or turn, you've earned the punish. If you're getting mixed, they've earned that damage, or at the very least earned that extra bit of time where you're on the defensive.
Kazuya is the only honest character. The 13f whiff and launch punisher ewgf requires a lot of practice and time plus the fifty fifty is the only thing that can be leveraged and that too if caught on leads to heavy punishment.
Their are only a couple of honest characters to me these are, claudio, kaz, paul, steve, devil jin, bryan,azucena surprisingly these characters imo are the definition of honest causes azucena actually requires strong fundamentals now that she isnt complete bs, the others i mentioned require just good knowledge on tekken your skill execution and fundamentals, claudio you could make an argument he’s not honest but to me I just find him kinda honest.
Yeah it really does not matter what people say. Kazuya is the hardest and most honest character in tekken history. People disagree? Theyre wrong, end of story 😂
What do you guys think about the Term "Honest" in Tekken and which characters do you think are honest?
There are no honest characters in Tekken 8. Ok, maybe Kazuya (the stupid laser doesn't count). Every character can be a toxic piece of shit in the hands of the right player. And every character can be honest if the person playing wants it.
Every character who is still hard to play is honest, even if their 50/50 potential is annoying sometimes.
Dragunov, King & Law are a disappointment after T7.
Dragunov is not honest because of his easier combos and huge damage on Heat Smash.
King is not honest because of his Jaguar Sprint throw and Power Crush.
And if Law’s DSS input was still the old one I would respect the character, despite his very damaging 50/50.
Character honesty relies on how difficult a character is to counter. You have strong characters with moves that are difficult to work around (Dragonov, Feng, Jin) , and tricky lab characters that you need to study before you can actually effectively play against them. (Xiaoyu, Nina, Bears)
Idk about honest cus I'm biased and most characters have cheap stuff, but in my experience there are certain characters who are just played by better players. Like for example, whenever I encounter a Victor or Eddy, they literally almost always dumb and braindead, but like 95% of the Lili players I encountered had fundamentals and patience. It's interesting.
The term 'honest' and even the term 'tekkengameplay' died when tekken 8 came out obviously...
Every character I play is honest and every character my opponent beats me with is dishonest and has no skill.
Pretty much.
*Mirror matches:*
True (i play dragunov)
Ah the darksydephil approach
@@BeretBayhe was playing dishonest unlike me, that's why I lost. He doesn't know how to play our character.
*COPIUM*
Everyone has a reason for why every character is cheap, like you said its not worth worrying about just have fun with your character
If your character isn't cheap your character is bad
Agreed! When the community makes tier list, and someone is considered S ranked, essentially what's being said is that this character has the easiest tools to abuse at a high lvl. Notice I never said the easiest tools to execute because there's a difference. Well in some cases at least lol.
@@harpot678 Tekken 7 steve would like to have a word with you xD
The concept of an honest character is nebulous at best, but I can say with 100% certainty that Yoshimitsu is one of the most dishonest fighting game characters of all time, and I love him for it.
@michakoguciuk497 bears are honest, most players have just encountered five of them ever
@@lowlifelenny I play against a couple thousand hour yoshi who makes it feel like he's breaking the game. He seems like a dev character tbh
Yeah he's dumb af
i mean he has a 1 frame move that can counter hit into a full combo. so yea he literally has broken all rules lol. as dishonest as it gets lmao
@Jake-nh5th No they're not 😒
No character in this game is honest. That's the point.
The problems always start when people say "MY" Character is honest because [insert reason] but YOUR character is dishonest because [Insert reason].
The reason's are almost irrelevant. The second you imply that your wins are based on skill but others' wins are based on [dishonesty] - you have chosen war.
The sooner people realise that every character in this game is capable of some despicable robbery, the better.
Absolutely, I'm sure that Kazuya's 1,2,4,3 is just as dishonest as can opener. Absolutely the same thing.
@@ulurius See? This is what I mean.
my character is honest because [my strings are easy to block] but your character is dishonest because [your strings are hard to block]
As if the outcome of matches are determined exclusively by how hard strings are to block 🤣
T7 akuma didn't have any complicated strings either. Was he honest? Asuka's strings are pretty standard and short too. Is she honest?
No. Akuma wasn't honest because [insert reason here] but my character is honest because [insert reason here].
We can do this all day...
This comes from Mishima mains most of the time especially hardcore tmm fans, the delusion and sense of superiority is absurd from those types of players
So what about Leo then
@@jk10istI love playing RPS the game on block
Mishimas arent honest. Wavedashing isn't honest, having to gamble guess 50/50s throughout the whole round isn't honest. And that's fine, I don't think kazuya and devil Jin need nerfs (fuck Jin though).
Azucena for example is garbage tier imo and I still don't think she is honest in any way.
Kazuya players need to stop the circlejerking and the gaslighting.
I love kaz and mishimas but this is so true
It's just the mishima mains who are obsessing over the term. I guess they need some validation for their slow progress. I never hear bryan or steve mains pushing this narrative even though mishima mains think steve and bryan are more honest.
Kazuya is probably the most "honest" character in the game imo
Play Kazuya and you will immediately see why the creator of the vid thinks he's honest. It sucks not having panic moves to evade attacks or simply get people off of you. So what you end up doing is relying more on patience and movement to work your way out of the opponents pressure. Sure his vortex can be seen as "dishonest" but the reality is everyone knows this about Kazuya, it's not a surprise. That being said, I love playing him even when I lose because the dopamine of winning with Kaz is unreal and this is coming from a long time Lee player.
@@matrxzeno4761maaaan you just gave me what I needed to continue playing him. I’m a regular joe tryna get good man but it’s discouraging af gettin beat tf up lmao there’s no panic button lmao
To me, there's no "honest" character. Just different levels of "bullshit". How you deal with that bullshit, it's up to you and your skill level
Definitely agree.. this the most logical answer every character has a tier of bs
„Skill level“
This is the best take. I think for most people what level of bullshit makes a character dishonest for them is different. Like i don't concider simply having a 50/50 dishonest. Everyone has 50/50s. But some characters have a focus on just forcing 50/50s and looping them (Like marduk and Kazuya) so for me thats the level of bullshit that makes me concider them dishonest. (I play both these characters btw)
@@ezekieljohnson8345no it’s a trash take. That’s legit what people mean with honest. If a character doesn’t have a lot of bullshit, he is honest, if he has a lot of bullshit, he is a cheap character.
Agreed with the conclusion that honesty is a worthless thing to discuss in T8 but heavily disagree with the "who cares" argument at the end. Letting people cry and spew misinfo about characters and character strength leads to a toxic online environment in this game. We already have a epidemic of people plugging on you online, refusing to rematch and sending hate on posts and whispers because of preconceived notions about a character. You should care if you want the community to be a place where people can actually enjoy playing whatever character they want.
If no character is honest, every character is honest.
No every character is just not honest. You're not playing an honest game.
@@harpot678 Only at lower levels. Higher level tekken is clearly a different game
Lmao, nice basic take. Too bad that's not how it works
you described it just right, great job. the game has went beyond the meaning of honest since everything is op ig u could say everything is not honest. i'd like to describe this term as an unbalanced game.
@Iamirooni The problem there is in all honesty 8 is more balanced than prior games. The gap between the weakest character in 8 (imo devil jin) to the strongest char (imo nina) isn't that gigantic and isn't as large as the gaps that were in prior games. I'd also go so far to say that the strongest characters in this game aren't as busted as prior games. I think current 8 players would tear their hair out if there were still 6-8 hit TODs.
Every character in the game is gonna be honest as soon as Marduck drops. 🤣
I'm actually so hyped to see how he's designed in tekken 8, moveset and visual wise
Lol gottem
This is the video the entire tekken community needs to watch. Since I’ve picked up tekken 8, I’ve had to slowly lower the amount of time that I engage with fellow players because it’s almost nothing but whiny bullshit and hate. I continue to play the game and have fun with it but I refuse to discuss it with others for the sake of my mental health lol
I'm an OG and I've been playing since 95 and you are absolutely correct. Them community gives me a headache
Boogard mentioned no other community is like this, but I'm from smash and it's way worse there. It kind of sucks moving away from a game to another and seeing the same stuff, but T8 is actually an amazing game at the end of the day.
Been playing since 3 and same. I think tekken has some of the more annoying players in this regard.
Corny
@@Cronalixzsmash is boring
I think an aspect of “dishonest” characters that got passed up is the fact that some character have extremely long strings that are generally safe/hard to avoid and can often force you into a 50/50 situation where you can lose a ton of life. You essentially never get a turn to fight back. Characters that come to mind immediately that have this archetype is Xiaoyu, Nina, Reina, Zafina, Alisa, and King. It seems like a majority of these characters key moves/strings are safe on block/plus on hit or they force a mixup situation where you’re constantly on the defense. And if you manage to steal your turn they have more than enough panic moves to take their turn back
IMO , there is no “honest” character . Every character got some type of gimmick whether in heat or not . Some gimmicks are stronger than others . It makes the game very enjoyable. Of course I’m speaking as Mishima player .
Agreed
Lot people don't realise how broken some characters on tekkan 7 was, marduk, Geece were a nightmare and have literally death combos. 80% health gone was possible tekkan 7. People like riding nostalgia, but the hard fact is tekkan 8 Is the most balanced game compared to the others.
I've always considered an honest character to be one that wins without deception, and in Tekken 8, there isn't a single character that does that. Every character has some sort of combination of 50/50s, plus frame moves to deceive you into attacking, or evasive/confusing animations.
Deception is baked into every single character, and people who argue about which characters are honest are just malding about the characters they don't use.
IMHO a honest character is a character who doesn't rob you once you know the matchup. No bs 50-50 snowball into another 50-50 into another 50-50 into another 50-50, no unbreakable throws, no guard breaks, no constant on block 50-50. If you know the matchup, the character is harmless and it's on the opponent to outplay you.
It was my understanding that Jack-8 and Shaheen being honest was agreed upon by 100% of the community, but this video really made me wonder and think about this interesting topic.
The fact that I could only think of two characters made me realize how hard it is to be considered honest.
steve fox
@abdulkarimelnaas7595yeah, it definitely feels like Jack is the furthest thing from honest, when im playing against him lol. He’s probably honest at high levels, i just suck at the match up
I would never consider those 2 honest personally especially considering how cheesy they can be
@@tristanherb49 yeah, steve is honest I think.
Shaheen has guard breaks and slides shenanigans aint no way he's honest 😂 same with Jack , now if u were talking about their T7 counterpart maybe
**laughs in Bryan main**
Bouta go make a Lincoln outfit cuz you can call me honest Abe
Aint nothing quiet as honest as having an unblockable, unreactable mid launcher for 80+ dmg into unblockable, unreactable mid launcher for oki
@@ericfreackif you’re referring to TJU which is one of if not the hardest move to pull off in the game then if the player can do it then he’s literally just better than you 😂
@@S0LACE_AETERNUM how about taunt b4 near wall?
@@ericfreack slightly easier than TJU but it’s still very difficult and plus taunt is never guaranteed to begin with
@@S0LACE_AETERNUM yeah you just get a free attempt for wall oki that you can cancel into a guaranteed grounded hit even if they dont get up
For me, I think the term honest when thinking of the changes characters went from T7 to T8 that eliminated character weaknesses and identity. For example, Jin and Kazuya, the staple "honest" and hard to use characters of T7. Jin's weakness was that he didnt have the best okizeme and most of his moves didn't crush very well, but made up for it by having very good neutral control. Kazuya had an amazing 50/50 and vortex with knockdowns, but this mixup required a lot of mindgames to implement, he had poor pokes and was vulnerable to rushdown.
T8 gave Jin a counter hit launching high crushing near-tracking low that flipped grounder opponents, while Kazuya got a plus frame mid that allowed him to mix up from standing, db1, 2 an i13 mid, mid move that heat engages (even if its launch punishable, the first hit is often used like a poke) d1+2 which is fast, crushes highs and counter hit launches.
Its changes like these I feel are the source of frustration for so many legacy players who are used to playing around the weaknesses and identities of established characters more than anything
tldr a lot of characters removed core weaknesses of characters also removing their counterplay and identity making players frustrated
This is what I was looking for, these are the same characters but not the ones we grew up with now there is new issues to deal with and we’re not all that ok with it
tekken is a knowledge based game. If you don't know how to deal with something you'll get frustrated because there's nothing you could do, if you do know how to deal with something and messed up because of bad fundamentals (pretty much what you listed at 1:00 ) then you'll believe it was honest and blame yourself for the loss. The problem with this is because tekken is a knowledge based game with each character having 100+ moves, unless you dedicate your life to it, most of the times you lose and get frustrated you'll feel it's unfair and complain about it and the character. Here's where the definition of honest varies because you'll have different experiences and different levels of knowlege so what you know how to deal with someone else won't, making the definition entirely opinion based and because if you know the ins and outs of every move (for example those annoying strings are usually highly punishable) then most things are fair.
Bottomline is pretty much the same as what you said at the end of the video, unless you're part of that 0.1% of high level tournament players who know the game in and out, the term "honest" is entirely subjective. This comment just delves into where that subjectivity comes from.
I still hate Alissa tho
Alisa, Zafina, Lars. Confusing as hell.
Add that with the fact that moves have been changed or straight up removed and the whole player base can end up in an uproar
When you said "whatever this string is" for paul i immediately thought "just duck the high and block the mid if the high takes too long to come out"
i used to hate facing certain characters but honestly people have to be their worst enemy in this game in order to figure out how to approach them better.
the only problem with this game in my opinion is that its a “little” to agressive and dosent punish characters enough for throwing all their combos out. if theres something defensive for the heat, i think this game will be a masterpiece
Honest is when there's a counter tactic to a move. If there is none then people will spam it over and over again (like Azucena's while running move that was nerfed).
Imo, an honest character's kit relies on fundamentals over character specific strengths. Overall I think character honesty is on a spectrum. It depends on how difficult the matchup is to counter either because its a tricky character to counter or one that's just oppressively strong with little counter play. Every character can have an honest playstyle, it just relies on who your playing against and at what level.
Yes there is such thing as an honest character bruh! victor has no place in tekken Idc what no one says with these analysations!! guns in tekken is unacceptable 👎🏾
LOL, where were you when Yoshimitsu, Kunimitsu, True Ogre, Devil Kazuya was a thing?????
@@yellowscarlightningscream8347 Tf has this comment got to do with anything lil folks!! we are talking about un honest character's in general it don't matter what game or how long ago it was ! and yes!! those mf characters you named are un honest as hell!!
Projectiles are sidesteppable if you don't know yet
I main Hwoarang. He is the most honest character in the game. Change my mind. ☝🏼🤓
💀💀💀
Second after Alisa
As a Claudio main sitting in blue ranks I do agree that a chunk of my early success only came from me spamming random starburst moves. Now I struggle to climb as I need solid fundamentals to beat most people. However I am still learning as a play and enjoying my time so this is the good type of struggle.
I'd say "honest" characters are ones you HAVE to lab properly to play, Lee, Kazuya, Bryan, Steve.
if you can mash and somehow do a 70 damage combo without labbing its dishonest.
a character is dishonest if i lose to it, a character is honest if i win with it
Saying kazuya has a complete lack of panic buttons is... weird considering his 1+4 got buff last patch
Kazuya players also like to pretend that dick jab doesn't exist.
If you are talking about db 1,4 its very linear, easily steppable and pretty slow , using it as a panic button does not work for your favour , atleast in higher ranks
@@jk-n5453 no. Im talking about the armour explossion. I always eat it, bro
@@javierperezmerino9457 Oh CHITUEE , yeah true , love to do it hahah
@javierperezmerino9457 That sounds like a YOU problem bro
Kazuya has been the 50/50 slot machine Vegas casino gameplay character since 1995 bro what are you smoking? What about being heavily punished for GUESSING wrong is honest?
Because the risk reward isnt in his favour, can be completely bypassed by SSL, and can't be done in most situations
Kazuya is PURE Tekken
@@shaghilathar3588 ff2, (accidental) df2, oki and delayed timings exist. Also the risk reward between ff3 and hellsweep (with ssl out of the picture) is famously one of the few high dmg mixes that is in kazuyas favour since the ff3 is so safe
@@ericfreack Ff2 is extremely linear, df2 is -12 and delayed timings are the whole mind game in the first place which isn't casino. Also you can't remove SSL from the picture as it's a 3D game, that alone makes the 50/50 against kazuya
@@shaghilathar3588 Except for all the Oki and heat related situations where you can completely remove ssl from the picture
I think people overcomplicate trying to convince others that their character is hard/easy/honest, yada yada. I just play who I like and try to not to complain about character I don't like fighting. It's hard sometimes but complaining doesn't help you get better IMO
steve is honest
I think a lot of players actually use "dishonest" to describe the bullsh*t moves they don't like. As you said for Claudio, he's a honest character but has access to quite bs moves while in heat. Same with Paul that I hate myself, he's honest even if I do think some of his strings are bs.
In the end, you can say whatever you want about a character being honest or not but it also depends if the player decides to play it honest.
If a character is honest, every character is un-honest - some man in the art of war
Kazuya is a character that relies on creating scenarios that let you basically gamble. In no way is Kazuya a honest character other than when you actually work to enforce the 50/50 but once you get it it creates a vortex of guessing games. Guessing games are not "fundamentals", they are flipping coins and quite literally the epitome of removing as much skill from the equation as possible. The only skill 50/50s can reward is reading patterns but at the end of the day its just a coin flip. The best example of a honest character would have to be one that does not have a vortex. Everyone in the game has 50/50s so the reason Kazuya isn't honest isn't because of his 50/50 its specifically because the 50/50 leads to continued guessing games. Other characters like Sheheen has a 50/50 but this doesn't create a vortex where you have to guess again after guessing wrong. Also just because you think a character isn't honest doesn't mean you hate them. You don't have to hate a character to think they aren't honest. I played most of the roster in tekken 7 and several characters i like are NOT honest characters.
Also execution has nothing to do with honesty. Akuma is one of the most execution heavy characters in tekken period while also being the most dishonest character in every sense of the word. Tons of panic moves gimmicks and evasive tools all while letting you put someone in a blender of guessing games even if they guess correctly.
Also for the record. I completely disagree that the convo is unhelpful. Everytime i talk with someone about what is or isn't dishonest it turns into a productive discussion about the properties of the move or character they are complaining about. The discussion of WHY something is dishonest is at its core a discussion of the games objective data. It may be heavily biased and people get emotional. But to anyone reading this next time you think a move or character is dishonest you should see it as a learning opportunity to figure out how to counter said thing and why its strong(if its even strong at all). Also the idea that something is strong automatically makes it dishonest i think is a pretty bad take. It falls into the mindset of simply calling something dishonest because you don't like it and stops you from going into the nuances of why its strong. For example Steve in tekken 7 was very honest. A character purely about timing,poking,movement and whiff punishment. Any strong quality from him came from the reward of him catching your timing and had clear and easily recognizable counter play for anyone that isn't literally a complete newbie even if they didn't know the Steve matchup.
Good to have you back. great content.
This is so weird to me coming from anime games. A character being honest has always been a demerit for their competitive viability the same way being slow or having poor reversal options would be. You never see people brag about winning with a character with low range or something, so why fixate on whether your character can mix someone or not?
Honesty debate in the comments? I'm all here for it
As a DLC main in Smash (Joker, though when you think about it he’s not actually all that gimmicky and cheesy. Arsene can be ridiculous, but it’s more balanced than people seem to imply. He just has the stigma of being top tier DLC), I 100% agree with you that the term “honest” needs to be dropped. I’m not cheesing you by playing my character the way he’s supposed to be played. You’re the one who picked a heavy. If you can’t handle top tiers play one yourself, or if you don’t like that then play another game. If you’re whining about pay-to-win, you’re just coping - only 3 of the top 10 characters in Smash are DLC.
See how much the argument for someone calling me cheap falls apart when you think about it? There’s nothing wrong with playing mid or even low tiers, but that’s your choice. If you think they can’t handle the top tiers, you made the choice to play them. Even if you want to make the pay-to-win argument, it falls apart when you actually look at the tier list. Yeah, Steve is #1, but Sonic, G&W, and Snake fill spots 2-4. Stop calling your opponent cheap when you lose - in Smash, Tekken, or any other game. There’s always an element of “your fault” every time you lose. Obviously you aren’t expected to learn every detail of every matchup before you go online, but that does mean that you WILL be cheesed. But when you think about it, you could’ve chosen to learn about Alisa’s chainsaw move frame data, as one example. But wait! Now you’ve spent too much time learning matchups and not enough time learning fundamentals, and are losing the matches against good players. Now you’re just winning the same number of matches you were before, but it feels even less rewarding since you’re only beating the players relying on gimmicks. Being able to play the game at a high level takes time. You’re not becoming a master in a day. When improving, you will fall short somewhere. I chose to focus on fundamentals instead of matchups when I started playing Tekken. Did I lose to gimmicks and knowledge checks? Yes. But did I lose to players who also were focusing on fundamentals? Not always. Eventually, after I have a good handle on my fundamentals (which will be a while since I still don’t have a main), I’ll get around to the matchups. But I can’t get angry at people when I myself chose not to worry about matchups.
Sadly, Tekken is a bit pay-to-win, as you can’t do Practice with DLC characters you don’t have (aka the reason why low tiers were infested with Eddy when he came out and are now infested with Lydia), but hopefully they find a solution eventually
Not a single video on earth is gonna persuade me to call a character like Raven, Zafina, or Xaioyu honest.
If everyone wants honest characters then make a fighting game without launchers and button combinations
I was thinking no bs standing grab buttons (unless it's a follow through in a combo.) No juggles just ground bounces, and of course no heat or super move bs to stop the whole fight. I play without juggles and grabs and win still. Just gets harder when the opponent doesn't. Makes my forced realism play more rewarding.
@@radusmors3751 you should try Footsies the game.
@@radusmors3751 you should try a game calles Footsies then
@@GeneticFreak never heard of it, also not sure if you're trolling lol
When I think a character is not honest, I go and play that character, and then see how well I do in a short amount of time. For example, I wasn’t a fan of Bryan, so played him, didn’t have an easy time, now he’s my main.
A game where everyone have 100 moves? Cries in Claudio main
Amazing video, pretty well thought out and nicely written. Looking forward to more videos like this. Good luck brother
Claudio is the only honest character in Tekken 8. We have no gimmicks, horribly lows, we rely on fundamentals.
kuma 💀
99% of the Tekken Community is a bunch of tierwhres abusing every kind of gimmick they can pull off and the devs support them as hard as they can
Honest is a great term at higher level play that helps express a lot of ideas in describing a character. Lower levels not so much. Easy and hard are not great either. I think Straightforward vs Complex and High (skill) Floor vs Low (skill) Floor work better
Leo is honestly the most honest character.
FACTS THO
2:04 Its me. I'm the one typing that T8 Dragunov is honest🤓
I main Leo. Is Leo an honest character?
I'd say so
Nothing in Leo's kit is particularly egregious or abnormal. His toolkit is very well-rounded IMO, which is at the same time a blessing and a curse. It's not as if Leo *lacks* anything, but rather that nothing in his kit really breaks the rules of the game in the same way that, say, Xiaoyu AoP does.
Probably the most egregious thing in his kit is qcf 2, 1 beating most oki options, but even that doesn't deal a TON of damage. You're not winning any rounds with Leo *solely* on the back of qcf 2, 1.
Honestly this question like a Paradox of sorts you're right but you're right at the same time and to actually find the "right" answer is to literally go high level but then you realise that most just stays at the casual side so in a sense you can't really gauge it you could say. More so just literally enjoy the game and if it's bs for you then it's bs then try to understand the character a bit or even play it to see how it works. Because hey if you ain't going anywhere with your current character might as well check the ones that's been giving you a hard time.
Sounds like ppl need to invest in practice mode. Tekken has added replay tips to help ppl learn not to get abused and spammed in this game. Use it or they’ll take it out. You can’t do much about iwr(instant while running) moves however
I think what confuses people about the whole honest/dishonest discourse is that there are two philosophies about this topic
1) gameplay/risk reward school: a charachter is honest if the gameplay has a clear execution and counterplay, and thus an appropriate risk reward factor, this is the option where kazuya is a super honest character because he has a clean counter play and high risk reward, meaning that if you get caught its your fault not mine, but at the same time Feng is dishonest because he can do just about everything without static or clear counterplay "just play better" typa deal
2) the straightforward/fundamental school:
Where kazuya is dishonest because he play around big dmg launches, around coinflip 50/50s and oki that very gimmiky to get out off, all of these tools combined can snowball a round and make it feel like kaz "stole" that round, but at the same time Feng is the honest character because while he has mix, he relies on pokes, punishes and clean play to beat the opponent, giveing people ways to counter and play at every touch, but has to work a bit more to enforce straight 50/50s.
Imo the truth is in the middle and both chools of thought are wrong.
Imo how "honest" a character is, is dependent on how much you have to you have to deviate form the games fundamentals to play against that character, example: Kaz and Feng are both very honest characters, both can be dealt with by using strong fundamentals, sidestep, block punish and wake up options, how you counter kazuya, are FUNDAMENTALS, but also reaction, steps, shutting down pokes, spot ducking and correctly block punishing, how you counter feng, are fundamentals.
Dishonest characters are characters like xiaoyu, yoshi, bears, and raven, characters that have unique tools and mixups that force you to adapt to those specifinc tools and adopt answers outside what classic fundamental tekken is.
Btw the same concept of "if it forces you to play a different way, its dishonest" can be applied to other games
Sol, ky, sin - honest
Asuka, zato, pot - dishonest
Ken, ryu, kammy -honest
Zangief, manon, honda - dishonest
Counterpoint: Classic fundamental tekken IS adopting character specific answers for character specific situations. Thats why its a 100+ Moves per char game. Thats why its considered a legacy/knowledge based game above other fgs. Characters having matchup defining moves that force you to adopt new and unique strategies is the whole appeal
Great video man realistically if you lab the dumb shit you run into you online or in a tournament you dwindle down what is cheap/dishonest. People for some reason don’t realize that learning knowledge checks & understanding your character completely are more important than anything, start incorporating the replay system when someone spams the same move dogging on ya instead of raging, learn how do deal with these setups because every character has something that can take you by surprise it’s not easy but it pays off like crazy.
He's back
I think the reason why People don't consider Kazuya honest is that he has a 50/50 into what could be a 100 Dmg juggle but more commonly it's 70 and with the frame advantage you get with the electric you're force to duck, therefore taking a juggle anyway. This is around Fujin level so it obviously changes depending on rank.
Till people on Ruler ranks learn to SSL
@@KanesakiHyudou gaslighting
Kazuya doesn't have true 50/50s besides heat dash/engager. All his options after knockdown have a form of counterplay besides blocking low/mid. Kazuya hate is usually seen predominantly in low level play, as mid to high level Kazuyas get slaughtered 70% of the time.
@@Marval69 complete bullocks. Kazuya is one of the few complete circus characters with strong 50/50. Stop downplaying it.
@@yellowscarlightningscream8347 Lmao literally top 5 easier matchups to learn. Get gud, chump.
Kazuya doesn't lack panic buttons. He has one of the best panic buttons in the game while in heat.
Db 1+2 or u mean heat smash?
To clean this all up, I'll say this: THE PLAYERS ARE HONEST, THE CHARACTERS REPRESENT AN EXTENSION OF THE PLAYERS. SOME PLAYERS HAVE MULTIPLE EXTENSIONS.
thank you, the fact that no one is honest made me main dragunov, love your vids.
King has 48 different throws. I'm going to attempt all of them on you each round. Good luck 👍
This is the same argument as Street Fighter's characters being footsies or not 😂
An honest character is one where their identity isnt based around a gimmick that provides free defense.
People dislike opponent’s strong 50/50 mixups. Whether it’s a wakeup mixup between hellsweep and safe mid launcher or a forced string or stance mixup, they feel it’s cheap since they have to guess. People really hated Fahkumram standing 3 string mixups as it was a fast long range mid with countless of string followups. They blocked and still had to take a mixup. Same with Reina ff2 and Lidia ff2 on block. They get a forced stance mixup. And you can’t even backdash away to avoid these long range mids that start a mixup.
At lower ranks cheese is the main reason people think some character is dishonest. Usually these are moves/strings that are weak to sidestep, duck or low parry, but if you don’t know the weakness you have to take a mixup afterwards. And opponent can usually loop this. If these players continue playing, their opinion will eventually change as they learn to punish cheese like this hard. But most people are red ranks or below. They don’t yet know how to beat cheese.
People also consider moves that ”steal turn” unfair. Leroy/Asuka parry, Paul’s evasive shoulder, Feng’s kempo, power crush heat engagers, Yoshi flash, etc. They press a quick safe mid check at plus frames and still lose. Feels unfair.
Zafina is a very honest character IMO. Been using her since T6 and I can tell that especially now she doesn’t have all of these crazy super damaging moves that take no effort to pull off. Doesn’t have crazy movement like say Lars does. And she has very clear openings in her strings.
It takes a real good player to master Zafina. Been faithful to her for more than a decade atp. And I can tell. She’s definitely been toned down since T7 and her good tools have been nerfed or straight up taken away.
Lard and Lee Main here and the i know those two are very different Playstyles but in my opinion the biggest Problem in Tekken 8 comes with the heat. Thats were characters get there "extra stupid" moves and Combos. Lee gets every perfect Timing for free and lars gets that sprint ( which was way more op before Patch 1.05). Thats when the crappy Shit beginns in my opinion. I know its Part of the Game but Sometimes i Wish there would be a Gamemode without Heat and rageart. And your right. As soon as you IT Like raijin or kisin the people know the matchups and the gimmiks and then its Not that "easy" to abuse some moves
I don't know if it's because I'm too much or a scrub or if going to weeklies and playing people face to face helps but I don't find anyone dishonest I kind of just go "aww darn I could have had that"
honest character is a character that doesnt have 50/50 on there play style. and all character in tekken have 50/50 option.
steve fox is honest
Reina doesn't have strong lows. Kazuya has strong lows but super simple and predictable gameplay. Reina has many tricks up on her sleeves. Still with weak lows she is more formidable than kazuya
@@tristanherb49i main this dude and he ain’t honest a bit hahaha
this dude has a billion setups that just delete you without knowledge
he ain’t cheap but he definitely isn’t honest hahaha
@@sidhantmanitiwari9873she doesn't need a bunch of good lows tbh, she has everything else and crazy pressure
@@ranges787has a billion setups that are hard to pull off, has one of the worst dmg outputs, has terrible launcher punishes if its not a counter hit, bad lows slow lows. Ngl i can go for alot more but ill stop
I started my tekken journey maining kazuya.
I can say hes quite honest, you know whats coming once he gets going.
Last week I started playing Reina and about two days ago I saw a great jump in my performance; I can say with all certainy she is very dishonest; sometimes not even I know what im going to do, but it works and it allows me to adapt on the fly.
I feel bad for my opponent though...... Most dont stand a chance.
Kaz is not honest. If you think dealing with 50/50s is honest, that means Eddy and Lars are honest as well.
Then that means no one is honest. Kaz has a very simple gameplay and defined weaknesses. He has little to no gimmicks and annoying strings and That's what makes a character honest in my opinion, a gameplay with strengths and weaknesses with no gimmicks.
@@Timethyclicketh steve honest fox
@@Timethyclicketh The hellsweep was one of the first moves I thought to myself was bullshit when playing Tekken. Then I looked up how to beat it and the answer was lol you have to guess. Doesn't sound so honest to me.
@@KO9596 Some characters have homing hellwseeps, but Kaz has bad tracking on his so sidestepping left is another option though a good Kazuya player will shut down your sidestepping. You can opt sidestep left unless in situations like after his b2,4, df2 wall combo which makes you unable to sidestep. They're much better than Law and Shaheen slides let me tell you that much, At least a blocked hellsweep kills your opponent.
@@Timethyclicketh kazuya does have many gimmicks, way more than shaheen for example. And people don't consider shaheen honest. It is just the kazuya players who are obsessed over this term.
i disagree and I wont elaborate.
Really, Honesty is very difficult to really gauge in Tekken 8 due to the inclusion of Heat. Some have already noted that it's really a spectrum and the character and matchup makes the difference. What I will say is that certain characters kinda fit the mould better than others in the 'Honest' chart due to the focus on fundamentals over use of characters with overwhelmingly difficult to overcome pressure or particular gimmicks or tools that are difficult to counter. It doesn't really make sense however that this'd be a term that a casual or intermediate level player should use, I feel that people who fit Pro or at minimum High Level play can get away with using it.
In a possibly controversial take, I do believe that Paul is among the more 'honest' characters, and furthermore even Kazuya would fit that. It's arguable that Paul does a LOT of damage but his current toolset is all about timing and conditioning, whereas Kazuya's 50/50 while fast, requires good execution and in many cases are all or nothing.
Honest in Tekken is very subjective, for me all the characters that don't have an embarrassing pressure like Dragunov, Nina, Jin but also Alisa chr is totally safe everything he does or Victor who is stupidly simple to use and totally broken. I could probably also put King in this list but in my opinion he still remains below those mentioned above, the others are honest because even having strong points they have a precise way of being countered
There are no honest characters, just honest players in my eyes.
It makes coping with getting blown up by some bullshit online much healthier. Which is honestly something I wish more people did, because if I had a nickel for every time theres been a weird tension in the friend group over character choice I could stop job hunting right now.
Rule of thumb
There is no such thing as a honest character unless you're playing a mirror match & even then I'd argue it's still not honest but at least you both know what is going on. If you're playing fighting games, their is no such thing as honest. Every character has their cheese / gimmicks. Just depends who is more cheesy then the other.
Haven't seen a vid from you in a bit. About character "honesty", I can say that anyone saying Shaheen isn't honest, just sucks at the game. He has the smallest, most predictable move list-lost some moves from T7 ffs-has the least options in heat of any character, and wins off of conditioning the opponent the whole game. Plus the devs deleting his only "gimmick" if you can call it that, the whole jump around like a frog and spam the slide/hopkick mix he had at launch. Kazuya is far from honest, and I'm tired of hearing that from everyone. Nobody playing him relies on perfect electrics and movement, just as nobody spamming King in this game knows the chain throws. These characters have low-skill filth that can carry them. Lastly, Kazuya definitely has panic moves (CH d/f 2) is a ridiculous get off me move that I WISH Lars still had...
Glad to see you are back!
I honestly hate when people spam moves and the R2 or signature moves. Makes the game totally unplayable
Yeah, see, the issue with your definition of "honest" is that the majority of the community that copes by using the term HATES Ling for her ability to avoid some mids with AoP, and moves with evasion properties are a core fundamental part of Tekken since the very first one.
At the end of the day, it's a stupid term used to deflect blame for losses. It's big cope, and nothing more. "Honest" simply means "my main" most of the time and "dishonest" tends to mean "anything that confuses me."
It should become even more clear how useless the term is when you consider that character selection, deciding which character to put your time into, IS A SKILL and it's one of the more important ones.
I just play whatever interests me the most, kazuya and steve are my mains because i think their really cool. They are very frustrating sometimes but i would not main anyone besides them
Kazuza is a mishima can’t be “honest” with a hell sweep
Hellsweep is super minus btw
@@KamDaMan2007Thats if you block it and don't get hit by his launching mid
@@yaboytony3028which is also minus
@@KamDaMan2007 Minus 3 and also puts you in crouch 💀💀
@@yaboytony3028 lol also 21-23 frames (I can't remember) I think you should know this but you can just crouch jab out of all his mixups
frequent uploads Boo your shits always be fire
I figured it out the problem it's the term honest character that's the problem
There is no such thing as honest or dishonest characters. There are characters, and you pick which one you want to play. This concept is imaginary and inconsequential. Folks not complaining about it and just playing the game more would help them out more.
In Terms of "easy" and "hard" chars, the saying from framewhisperer always comes to mind: "In tekken, hard characters are usually good, which makes them easy. Easy Characters are usually bad, which makes them hard"
Damn. Manz spitting facts
I miss gigas gimmicks bc i loved the hyper armor move into any punisher And they had the first heat engager as a rage drive
I've seen too many flow charty Pauls to consider him honest
I see Kazuya as the Yasuo in League of Legends ; the character is OP, has many tools for him but is mainly hindered by the player's skill, that's why Yasuo in LoL has low winrate compared to other champions but is hated and is frustrating to play against... (That's my view of a former LoL player, he may have changed since)
Kazuya is op now and is not more honest than others....
If he was OP he would have a spammable df1 and get out of jail fast crush move like every other character has. If he did, he would actually be OP, like Tag 1 Devil.
@@NYG5
U have spamable df4 which has more reach..
And best 10f punish in the game....
@@Logia1978df4 is in no way spammable
@@KamDaMan2007 df4 isn't spammable because it's -9 on block so your turn is over. When you have a df1 that's like -1 or -3 on block you can pop it, side step, or double tap it to keep the opponent in check. Totally different.
I think getting knowledge checked in tekken just feels WAY worse than most other fighting games, since the movelist is so huge per character, and there are a lot of strings.
If you get hit by something you havent seen in other FGgames, you can just document it. The character may have 2-3 things like this. However, in Tekken, each character could have 10+ annoying knowledge checks.
Luckily most players only know about 5-20 moves for their characters lol.
Heres a simple way of making everybody much more honest:
...
You miss an attack ? the rest of the string does NOT come out
Nah
Whiffing moves on purpose to bait the opponent into pressing their luck when they *know* your string isn't done is a pretty straightforward and fairly common strat. If you can get a read on what the other guy will do/how he'll finish his string and/or turn, you've earned the punish. If you're getting mixed, they've earned that damage, or at the very least earned that extra bit of time where you're on the defensive.
I had a co-worker I played in T8 and we both used Paul that mane did that ultimate tackle BS every round just to win the match SCRUB
Every character good to me some u gotta learn they moves i dont jack so much but he do go crazy if you know how to used him king aswell
Bryan is extremely honest in neutral, but not at the wall. In my opinion Lee is the most honest and execution heavy character in the game.
Kazuya is the only honest character. The 13f whiff and launch punisher ewgf requires a lot of practice and time plus the fifty fifty is the only thing that can be leveraged and that too if caught on leads to heavy punishment.
The 13f EWGF in practice is really a 15-18f move for most humans, that is prone to being fked up due to stress
Every tekken character has bullshit
as a lars main, my character is not honest, especially with the way i play
Their are only a couple of honest characters to me these are, claudio, kaz, paul, steve, devil jin, bryan,azucena surprisingly these characters imo are the definition of honest causes azucena actually requires strong fundamentals now that she isnt complete bs, the others i mentioned require just good knowledge on tekken your skill execution and fundamentals, claudio you could make an argument he’s not honest but to me I just find him kinda honest.
Players will rematch you after you win, then win the second bout and cancel lol. Mad how people take a computer game so serious
Yeah it really does not matter what people say.
Kazuya is the hardest and most honest character in tekken history.
People disagree? Theyre wrong, end of story 😂
Least delusional kazuya main:
The only character were Most pepole would agree on being honest is Kazuya
Bro please keep uploading more I love watching your videos