Top 5 Things We're Tired Of - from Dice Tower West
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- čas přidán 1. 07. 2024
- Tom Vasel, Zee Garcia, Camilla Cleghorn, Mike DiLisio, and Chris Yi take a look at the top 5 things that they are tired of in gaming. It's tongue-in-cheek, it's silly, and it's live from Las Vegas!
Intro - 00:00
Mike 5 - 2:39
Camilla 5 - 4:20
Chris 5 - 5:05
Zee5 - 5:54
Tom 5 - 7:12
Mike 4 - 8:38
Camilla 4 - 10:39
Chris 4 - 12:13
Zee 4 - 13:25
Tom 4 - 15:47
Mike 3 - 17:51
Camilla 3 - 19:38
Chris 3 - 21:21
Zee 3 - 22:22
Tom 3 - 24:07
Mike 2 - 26:07
Camilla 2 - 28:13
Chris 2 - 29:15
Zee 2 - 30:56
Tom 2 - 33:45
Mike 1 - 36:02
Camilla 1 - 38:41
Chris 1 - 40:57
Zee 1 - 43:05
Tom 1 - 45:18
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"You don't sleeve your games? No I have 7 children!" It's by far the biggest laugh of the whole convention. Tom being such a PG rated family orientated figure to allude to something so scandalous was just so hilarious.
I don't know if that's what Tom was alluding to, but it is funny to think he was.
The joke had so many layers of discovery it was perfect.
@@mrskwid1 The best thing about an innuendo is that it can mean only one thing.
OMG! I totally didn't get it!! 😂😂😂 Thank you!
'Orientated' - ah you're making me UK homesick! *sniff*
CZcams board game videos like this one have been good for me, because I realized I had some really toxic behaviors, and was being more of a gatekeeper of the hobby than I realized. I know these are for fun and in jest, but there are lessons to be learned from them. I have been working on being less of a snooty board gamer. It's been hard, but it is worth the effort.
Man that's awesome, that kind of self awareness is unfortunately rare. Kudos to you!
Yeah, the "that's not complex" one hit pretty home for me. It's not that I do that specifically. It's that I'll try to teach a game to people and try assuring them of how complex it is. I try to tell them "Don't worry, it's not too complex. It'll make sense after you play some rounds." but it always gets taken as "Nah, this is an easy game!" and I end up making people feel worse like I'm insulting their intelligence. I just need to get out of the habit of saying things aren't that bad and just start saying something like "Yeah, it's complex, but it might grow on you! ...and if not, that's fine. Everyone has their preferences."
Never call anyone a "NOOB".
With half a voice and a full sense of humor, Mr. Vasel brought the house down with an epic #1. Love it and all the rest too!
Tom's top 10 at the end was amazing. I originally thought sleeving joke was about the cost of 7 kids and the cost of sleeving 😂.
I didn't get it... could you please explain it to me? I'm still thinking about the costs :-D
@@irinig.1174 starts with con, ends with dom
@@andrewellis712 oh okay, i get it now. Thank you for explaining! I was thinking to much about board games :-D
That is absolutely what it was about, the minds of others immediately took it in a different direction. 😂
The beauty of the joke is it hits on so many levels. I watched the next 20 seconds at .25 speed because the reactions of every member was processing the joke at each of the levels.
What a lovely closing sentence from Tom! Make board games a better place, encourage new players (don't destroy them) and respect individual opinions about games ♥
"In Generia, everybody quells" -Zee 😂
Tom's number 1.6 was one of the funniest moment in Dice Tower history. I'm still crying from laughter.
I like the negative lists. They are always entertaining and fun to watch.
Been watching and listening to The Dice Tower for years, and Tom's sleeving joke was the funniest thing I've ever heard him say, whether he originally meant the double entendre or not.
One thing I really appreciate about Final girl by VRG is that the name of the character is on the underside of the base of the mini. It's sooo useful. No questions. No guide needed
I understand it was a slightly greater expense, but that should be the standard.
I have to look, but I think the birds and the zombies are like that too. 😆
I loved that moment where Chris is (I am assuming) is saying to Camilla "I don't think he meant it that way."
I totally agree about the 'pointles' stretch goals. Give me upgraded components. You don't have linen finish cards - give me linen finish cards. Give me metal coins instead of cardboard ones. Make a board that's gonna have a load of cubes on it dual layered. Ok, I can understand about the more RPG-esque ones having a soundtrack but I want that to be the half a million stretch goal whereby you've already upgraded everything that you reasonably can.
I agree, but I would love a soundtrack for Final Girl where you don't have to pay a subscription to this other company.
Zee's pick about campaign games. Bothered me at first, because I love campaign games!
Then I thought about it, and I think the more honest answer is that I love the idea of campaign games.
In 10 years of playing hobby board games, I've never gotten a group together consistently enough to finish a campaign, ever.
Eyes bigger than your timetable.
how bout a serious one: companies way understating their KS campaign goals just so they can see "funded 600% in 13 seconds!"
I am the exact opposite of Mike's #5.
If it ends in a tie, let to be a tie! Don't have some random tiebreaker that arbitrarily picks a winner.
Bare knuckle boxing or bust I say!
Agreed - I'd rather it be a tie than something arbitrary. But I am happy if there's a tie breaker that makes sense within the game (ie: money, resources, number of contracts completed, etc.).
Though to be fair, I get the bigger kick out of finding out the game was close, not on who actually won or lost it.
@@bricelory9534 I do like an interesting tie breaker. For instance when a game with limited actions/turns states that the tied player with the fewest remaining resources breaks ties it makes a lot of sense as that person was clearly more efficient with their actions/turns.
Yes, yes, a hundred times, yes! Sharing a well-won victory is a delicious, special moment in gaming. To tell me that I won just because I was wise enough to collect a little more money is just sad.
I mostly agree. I don't want something that has absolutely nothing to do with the game decide things. At least one wargame literally has you roll a die for victory on a tie. At that point, what difference does it make? I think Mike's point was more like "design your game so you don't HAVE ties", which I also agree with
I think Tom’s message of making the hobby a more welcoming place is much needed. I think there’s a lot of negativity in the board game community (on BGG, on Reddit, on Instagram) with “heavy gamers” looking down on people. People don’t like to admit it, but it’s there. They want to gatekeep and keep people out of their hobby, and it’s not cool.
The Dice Tower is an antidote to that, and that’s why I love these folks.
Wow, this one had me literally in tears from laughter. Awesome top 5!
Excellent!! Never realised what a board game nerd I was until I completely agreed PASSIONATELY with what you all said. How many times did I say, "Yes! Thank you!" when you called these things out. And then to end with the roasting of gaming groups 🤣🤣🤣🤣 So good!!
👍
Actual literal tears of laughter. This has absolutely brightened my day in ways you can't imagine.
My god, I had not laughed this hard in such a long time!! Please do more of these lists in front of crowds, it really changes the vibe :D
Thank you! ^.^
I love how angry the bad rulebook thing makes Tom. It's like that other list where they mentioned the guy who didn't pay attention to the teach and then says "you never said that", and Tom said "I want to take the rulebook and feed it to them".
I agree. There was a rash of games late 70's early 80's where the rules were on 1 or 2 sheets of COLORED paper, and printed in black and white. Any kind of picture, you couldn't tell what it was.
Omg that sleevers comment! I was in a packed train, completely caught off guard in hysterics, hilarious 😂
40:06 - Zee's example with the video game industry releasing an unfinished product, _knowing_ it isn't finished, justifying that they can still release it (on time or earlier) because they can patch it at a later date is so spot on; it's lazy, irresponsible, and--quite frankly--a slap in the face to their consumers.
The best part of this joke was that it took him 14 seconds to realize he'd made a joke, and then was embarrassed.
Thanks Chris Yi, and all for a great top 5!
Lessons learned: we should be gentle and kind to one another, and help bring new people to the hobby.
The most fun I've had watching a Dice Tower video EVER! Great job!
Bravo Tom. I always say the obsessive sleevers are a cult. There are literally threads on BGG of people asking for the card count/sizes for games that haven’t even hit Kickstarter yet. This is a mental illness.
I really appreciate that you were able to upload this. Audio is fine for a live event. Hearing the audience really adds to the viewing/listening experience.
I was sad that I missed this when I was there. I had too much voodoo steak right before it. Thanks for uploading the recording :)
Always great chemistry between everyone. Great job!
I somewhat agree with Mike's stretch goals, some of them are so mundane. How about this for a true stretch goal; Save money on the game, so if we reach $250,000, get a $5 rebate on the game. being able to pay less for a game instead of getting a different version of card would be way better.
Inserts don't frustrate me because almost always I immediately throw them away and just use bags, etc. Exception being game trayz-style ones where things are actually organized and *STAY* organized.
Way to close it out Tom! This was such a fun video.
I'm a sleever...but as Yoda says, "once you start down the sleeve path, forever will it dominate your destiny"...
As a sleever, I'm fine with what Tom said. My only bug bear is that games which spend money on a proper insert all too often don't make the card wells just a bit wider and deeper to account for the 10% of us who do sleeve! Like Zee said, there's a lot of space down there! You can make 'em bigger and no body loses!
Tom complained about you, too. 48:33
@@Subangelis I'm with Milla :)
And I'm not talking about a basic insert. I'm taking about ones where they actually have put some effort into making it good. Of the people that care for that, a large enough percentage sleeve to make it worth taking their other habit into account. Otherwise they're still forced to buy a custom insert which costs half as much as the game again.
Such panels should be mandatory lecture for board game publishers!
Yes, make the hobby a more welcoming place! Tom is so right.
Camilla: “I would happily pay an extra $2 to know my tokens won’t rip”
Asmodee: “I’m listening…”
I'd pay the extra 2 bucks if they'd punch and pack them in the factory. They would save on shipping weight , and I would have a headstart organizing the box.
Also, a thread on BGG *does not* replace an officially released and versioned FAQ document for your game! (PDF or TXT file on the internet)
One of my biggest pet peeve‘s is when the rulebook says the resources are unlimited and if you should run out use a substitute. How about just put some more in because you play tested this enough to feel like you should mention that because you Obviously know it’s a possibility!
Eh, this has never bothered me...I don't want to have to pay for enough components just for statistical outliers. Give me enough for normal play, and keep costs down by not putting in superfluous bits.
I don't recall ever having an issue with running out of resources in a game that actually mentions this. It is also helpful for games that use 5x or 3x markers. If there aren't enough resources provided, the game almost never mentions it.
Generally when this is an issue it's at extreme player counts or certain uncommon strategies. And I'm generally surprised when it actually does happen.
It's just a safety clause to go with the word "unlimited". How often do you actually run out of resources in an average game?
So much fun. Great lists!
This is one of the funniest and most entertaining DT videos I've seen in a long time. 😂😂😂
Awesome show once again. Loved the top 10 list within the top 5 list! Call the hobby downers out Tom!
48:52 "Oh, you don't sleeve your game?"
"NO, I have 7 children"
For future generations to find the funniest Dice Tower moment in history.
100% on Camilla's #4! A tile/patch in my copy of Patchwork ripped like this and I think of it each time I pull out the game. :)
Make sure you punch the correct way to minimise crap punch job. Punch from the cut side to the uncut side. If you go the other way the bit that will rip will always be on the token instead of (hopefully) ripping on the token.
At Zee that Ultra Fiesta Mango is way to good :) Also this was an awsome top 5, thx for the laughter. Watched that final entery a few times.
This was just wonderful , especially Toms number 1 (all of it)
That was funny.... Thanks for sharing!
Great fun and great message to all gamers, thanks!
It is clear who are the natural funny guys within DT. The way Zee and Mike were riffing and playing off the public was so brilliant. Comedy genius and actually hard to do because you need to listen carefully to what is said and react instantly. And delivering it with a straight face as well.
Nice list as usual :)
i wonder if there is no better option for audio. They all use a microphone, however what we hear seems to be a room mic with all the respective issues like echo etc. Couldn't you record the team's mics directly? Currently it's like scanning a page, save as PDF, print again, scan again and then discribute it :D
4:30 You can often remove stickers from boxes by rubbing it with a damp washcloth (note: damp, not soaking wet). Work slowly and gently to weaken the paper and glue. They will come off without damaging the box itself.
Edit: I understand and sympathize with the problem punching pieces out. I think some designers (or whoever) expect you to use an exacto knife or something...
Or you can use a hair dryer and then it'll come off pretty easily.
Everyone's laughing about Tom's sleeving joke but I'm just amazed at how accurate Tom's description was of Tichu groups 😆
For future viewers, when Camilla said she hated BGG, the BGG server was down for “upgrades” with her axe.
So that is why I could not get on it earlier today I really want to look something up.
#1 for me as far negative aspects of the hobby, will forever be kickstarter exclusives. “Oh here’s a new game, that will be the talk of the town and looks amazing, but 80% of the good content is behind exclusivity Kickstarter nonsense, and you will never get it unless you pay out the nose for it now!”
But Tom I must hand it to you on your 1.2: Lacerda Fans…100% this! Bravo Tom, Bravo.
There are two types of kickstarter exclusives: bloated afterthoughts that do nothing but slow the game down and make it more confusing; and crucial content that unless you cave into the FOMO and back it you'll never get anything resembling a complete experience if it goes to retail.
@@ironwolf56 Most definitely the latter. Unique sculpts, "sundropped" minis, rare artwork etc. is all fine, it's the FOMO effect you stated above.
I especially agree about anti-app people and the "solo extremists." Although I would expand "solo extremists" to people who want every game to be playable by any player count. I've seen kickstarters for solo only games where there are people in the comments complaining that there's no multi-player variant, which is just as annoying.
Yep, I agree
29:43 Rococo is missing there! But I agree with your picks Chris.
I love how centered that Mountain Dew is lol.
I think Mike's disappointed dad energy with external scoreboards was my favorite part of this.
This list deserves more than the limit of 1 like per CZcams user.
My top 1 thru 5: Unpainted freaking grey minis!!!
I am with you on the box sleeves, Mike!
On the insert topic, any insert with a HUGE row of coins or something on their side in a trough. Getting them in there is such a PAIN.
Thanks for uploading this video, it was fun to watch! In response to Tom's number 4 about inserts, I always wonder why games don't come with a little instructon sheet to explain how to pack the game back into the box. I'm looking at you Coloma! I'm surprised there aren't videos online about taking games and showing how to put them back in the box. There are plenty of unboxings, how about some back-in-the-boxings 😃
I love the ones that do.
This is great!
Well somebody went to Chick-fil-a! I like them too but with all the food options in Vegas?
Related to Zee's #3 - card or tile holders that are just shy of being deep enough! 😡 So two or three cards are floaters!
Awesome video
What made me sad is that Zee never got that hug from Tom 😞
The best part was seeing Mike's and Zee's confused faces after hearing Tom's sleeve joke.
18:53 Camilla looks pissed about something she saw on her phone. LOL!
Here are some of mine in no order:
1. Colored game pieces that are all bright boring primary colors and black. It works for a few games, but not for every single one. It's probably a cost issue, but I'd love some more interesting colors of game pieces. We're not playing Sorry here.
2. Cards that are hard to shuffle. The best cards I've ever experienced are the ones in Grand Austria Hotel, and they make that experience so much more palatable. They're thin but sturdy, and shuffle like butter. They totally spoiled me and I wish every game had them. It also, by the way, has interesting game piece colors.
3. Folding game boards that are near-impossible to flatten when unfolded. My light OCD goes crazy with these things, and I feel like I might break them if I unbend them too hard. Is it that hard to make a flat game board? Maybe, but we've also been to the moon.
4. Kickstarter games with a lot of hype but they take forever to arrive because they get stuck on a boat from China or something, and then they suck and make me never want to give my money to anyone ever again.
5. Box tops that are so tight you need a blowtorch to get them off. I understand the need for good tolerances, but we're making board games, not quantum computers.
6. An excessive amount of plastic wrapping. It's always fun to open a new game, but when everything is wrapped in plastic I feel like I'm contributing to the future death of a whale.
7. Putting absolutely, criminally unrealistic game times on the box. Those times are for Olympians. I personally double the high range of the game time on the box to know what I'm getting into.
8. Cartoon box art. It's so rare that a game company takes adults seriously with their art. I'm trying to play a good game, not go back to high school.
9. Game money that is not in 1, 5, and 10 increments. I bought that awesome metal money online so I didn't have to play with cardboard money, but your 1, 3, 7, 11 increments ruin this and are only good for SETI.
10. Big expansions that totally change the experience of the base game that made you want to get the expansion in the first place. I don't trust expansions anymore, but I think small expansions can be fun.
A marvelous hidden Top 10 list!
Agreed about online dissing. Its okay if you dont like it, or do like it. Not every game is for every person. I never want my kid to be afraid to try something just because the masses dont enjoy it.
"I have 7 children" ..somewhere I am hearing Sam Healey say " He went there!"
Exactly Chris.... I got confused with step, turn and round all the time.....
Loved the surprise top 10, very true also
My #1: Different rules or skipped rules for the first round. It makes learning the game so much harder for new players. Especially when the skipped rules has an easy work around. For example, when I teach Robinson Crusoe, I just put the Wreckage card on top of the event deck and play round 1 like any other....
Alone on the Blood Tower (the solo variant!) ^_^
I can't agree more to Mike's #3 Fancy Scoring Tracks! Kramer track is an industry standard for good reasons.
Yep! Those zigzaggy ones are the worst.
After Tom’s joke regarding card sleeping, I fully intend on buying tickets to next year’s Dice Tower West. 😂
Chris' Number One is one that really resonates with me. Categorizing games by anything other than their mechanical genre just feels wrong. If you want to tell me whether or not a game is Worker Placement, that's fine. But don't tell me a game is or isn't "heavy". That word has a different meaning to everyone. Everyone has their own strengths and weaknesses for what's easy/hard or light/heavy.
The ONLY exception I make to that is that I will also call games "gateway" games. Which (for me) is games that are appropriate to introduce someone to with minimal board game experience of any complexity. Some gateway games are purely gateway games to me (I don't play them with my usual play groups at all). For me, this includes Ticket to Ride. It's a great game, but it doesn't have the kinds of depth that my group looks for. For a group that isn't "as into heavy games", it could be a weekly play. On the flip side, a gateway game can also be something that you love to play even after you use it to get people more involved. For me, Azul falls into that category. Despite it's simplicity, the need to see what other players are doing makes it *just* deep enough to keep me interested.
However, in both cases, it is a great game as an introduction - and for the right group, it continues to remain a great game. Neither game is heavy (I think, by anyone's definition), yet both are incredibly good games. Which I think gets at the other part of Chris' point. Many people treat 'heavy' as 'good'. If a game isn't heavy, it can't be a top 20 game. Just, NO. Light games are some of the best games out there, when they provide satisfying mechanics and competition. Like Azul.
And in one single slide, Chris Yi rockets to the top of the coolness list... RATT
You could also go with the Byrds - To Every Thing, Round, Round, Round.
@@MarcGacy HA HA! I love it...
Or even Total Eclipse of the Heart - "Round a turn, bright eyes..."
For #1, Tom was in rare form! awesome! I cackled.
It's even funnier when you realise Tom is describing himself in most of the list (i.e. Replace Tichu with Puerto Rico, Replace anti-Marvel with anti-Zombie, replace Cult of the Future with Cult of the New. And people who defend bad art in games - Tom is the number one culprit for this, half of the games on his "Back From the Dead" list made my eyes bleed!). It's nice to see an occasional rant from him though - this is something Sam Healey would have done.
@@stevewithington1787his point about Tichu was the they invite you to play, beat you and then blame you for losing and I don’t see Tom ever doing that.
The people and groups that Tom lists display gate-keeper behaviour and that is the exact opposite of what Tom is like, so I really don’t see Tom being in any of these lists.
@@marks6928 Tom's entire list is him gate keeping.
I had to pause at the sleeve joke for laughing so hard!!!! Actual tears in my eyes right now!
This was awesome.
I want to play the Genera game now... and if no one publishes it, I hope that they all go out of business!
My copy of _Mythic Vale_ with three expansions will remain a copy with four expansions in it, because there is no real indicator on the cards - other than those that have expansion-specific powers on them - where they belong. So Zee's #1, the struggle is real.
To remove stickers, use a air dryer. It will soften the glue on the sticker and make way easier to remove. Honestly I have not ripped any stickers or boxes using this method.
Great finally !🎉
That's a fantastic list, Tom's number 1 top 10 list was an amazing finale (and I think Tom meant the sleever gag the way we heard it... though it did still make him blush)! I suspect I may come off as a 'solo extremist' at times... well, I doubt it as I hope I give a respectful delivery of my interests. Anyway, I do look for solo in the vast majority of my games these days, simply because I really enjoy new games and just don't have an opportunity to get them to multiplayer tables. So, I play solo and that helps me categorize ones I'm happy to continue to play solo and prioritize what I get out to multiplayer when the opportunity arises. Those heavy euro purists though are complete jerks! 🤣Just kidding, as you say... 'have fun. gaming!'
Zee’s #3 got me. Sometimes you get inserts that fit the cards perfectly when they’re in shrink, but the cards sit over the well once you’ve opened and used them. Infuriating.
“No, I have 7 children” was the funniest moment of all time watching the Dice Tower. Huge applause for Tom 👏 hahaha
I agree with Zee on his #1. Carcassonne (2017 Big Box with 11 expansions) is the worst of the games I have at this as there's plenty of tiles in several expansion sets that don't readily have the expansion element on them. Ended up taking different colored sharpies and making small dots on the bottom to be able to tell which tiles go with each other in the expansions.
I understand you completely, I have all the old expensions for Carcassonne, but the first 3 don't have any markings of which set they belong.very frustrating.
I would say I somewhat fall into two of the ten groups Tom calls out here, but I aim to be positive and inviting in things rather than gatekeepy and stuff. Any holier-than-thou groups bother me, so this is a great sub-list for that reason.
Yes, please, stop the campaign only! If you're going to have a campaign MODE in your game also make it so that people can dip in and out of it - a 4P game can be played by 8 different people over the course of the campaign because well every other week Jo and James aren't free and on the third Wednesday of the month Jane's busy, and one week someone was ill. Provided that isn't a problem I am all for it. Also, make it so that you can play mission 12 as your first mission if you so desire, just tell me what kind of upgrades I should get/set my character/etc to.
I lime box sleeves.
Bit of a story: On a trip, I found a copy of "Finance & Fortune" in an antique store. I bought it, & wanted to open it right then & there, but I had a 10 hour car ride ahead of me. I knew there was a good chance the game would wind up getting spilled on the way home. A box sleeve would've solved that; the sleeve would have kept the two halves of the box together on the ride home.
I like 3M's bookshelf games; the boxes are generic, with simple, robust, sleeves with classy art. The sleeves also make harder to spill the contents. Modern game companies could learn a thing or two from 3M's 50+ year old packaging.
*Like, not lime.
I totally agree with Mike. Especially if no other scoring method is provided, then for crying out loud put a score track on the board! Looking at you, First Empires. Make the board a smidge wider if you have to!
Tom's Top 10 at the end is gut busting. Holy cannoli that was a great ending! Pithy & spoke the truth!
Tom being a king for like 10 minutes straight with that nr 1 list
Believe it or not, I really like shared victory at the end of a game. Since I often play with my wife, it's nice to feel like we are equal if we encounter a tie.
I’m with Mike and Zee about the campaign only games. Honestly I think that’s some companies trying to deliver a “video game like” experience, and I don’t want that. I don’t want to pay for a game where I’ll only see a fraction of the content because a lot of it is at the end of the campaign. Let me pick the scenario to play and have the campaign as an option.