Dungeon Mechanics in Breath of the Wild 2
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- čas přidán 17. 06. 2024
- Let's take a look at some specific dungeon mechanics, both old and new, and see which ones should go, which ones are worth bringing back, and potentially expanded or altered for the highly anticipated sequel to Breath of the Wild.
Breath of the Wild Custom Dungeon:
• Skyview Temple (First ...
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Dungeons in Breath of the Wild 2:
• Dungeon Design in Brea...
Dungeon Traversal:
• A deeper look into Dun...
Progression Items:
• A New Approach to Prog...
Dungeon Preparation:
• Dungeon Preparation - ...
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The "player stopping and camera moving" thing isnt just for show, usually its used to load some part of the new area unlocked or process some stuff in the background. This trick is used especially in old games.
Oh!!! Good to know!! :o
i never thought i would learn something from a youtube comment
@@magicalkorok Learning can happen anywhere, anytime. Lol :)
Also, so that the player can't mcguiver their way out of a puzzle while something happens
Even breath of the wild does this. The Blood Moon is a narrative/gameplay element that exists because of a technical limitation. When the amount of memory used reaches a threshold the Blood Moon happens to reset the world, so the game doesn't have to remember which enemies you did or didn't kill. This is why you can spend several days in a small area without a blood moon and the get two in a row if you trek across the map.
The Hylian-ticipated sequel amirite?
Stop
Cease.
Ayyy let’s GO punz
4 digit IQ
This is great lol
I think in some cases the cinematic camera moving thing actually serves a purpose in some cases. Like when a change is really important but easy to miss, if they don't show the players won't even see it and spend a long time bumbling around the dungeon looking for what happened. The clarity those cutscens provide do serve a purpose, though I agree that it's not always necessary, like when you ht a switch that opens a door they you are right next that's totally unnecessary, but if it activates a torch or mechanism in some obscure part of the room then i'd argue it is necessary
@Manek Iridius Yes Exactly
I believe that’s what he just said
I honestly don’t like the whole “save points in rest spots” mechanic you mentioned. While it may seem like an interesting difficulty spike, it doesn’t add anything more than artificial difficulty. If you overcome a challenge, and then die to a completely separate one and lose all of the progress you’ve made, that’s a huge demotivator and does nothing but frustrate the player. You aren’t learning anything by retracing your steps to get back where you were before; it just wastes your time.
Perhaps more critically- People, it's a *Zelda* game. "it's just for kids" isn't an excuse to not try, but it is a valid excuse to dismiss citations of the stress relief cycle of friggin' DARK SOULS _(which is a genuinely great series that handles that cycle well)_ being used as an example of what the game should try to achieve.
For people that struggled to understand @@darthvaderreviews6926 ‘ comment (like i did):
“Zelda is not on the same level as Dark Souls, they’re fundamentally different (in terms of difficulty, design, intended audience, etc.) and so it’s ridiculous to point to a mechanic in Dark Souls and then try to apply it to Zelda.” [Also: “I’m not saying ‘Zelda is a kid’s game’ to dismiss innovative ideas, but we should remind ourselves that Zelda is a beginner-friendly series at its core.”)
I agree with it, it’s a solid point. It just took a few tries for my brain to comprehend it.
@@overthinkit_ it wasn’t hard to understand lmao
Also didn't they already do something similar in "Zelda II: the adventure of Link"? People didn't like it back then, did they?
No Zelda was not a beginner Series it was accessible because at the time it was new to alot of people kids included that's why they made it so beginner friendly. But Today's is different most Zelda audience are over the age of 35 so it's isn't fair to say that it's a beginner friendly because your afraid of Zelda turning something into a dark souls like game. Not everyone just plays Zelda games for they're whole lives but other games too if they are dissatisfied with Zelda. You sound more like a nostalgia traditionalist making up reason why this kind of shouldn't happen. Gamers love Zelda but are frustrated with Nintendo stubborn outdated tactic. Zelda isn't only for hardcore Zelda fans but people who fantasy in general
Calamity Ganon: 😈
Me with 2 hearts left: Ah, hold on. *chokes on fruitcakes*
Calamity Ganon: 🤭😐
Lol!
👏
And then dark beast Ganon: 😈😈😈
Me: (only a quarter of heart left) meh, who even gets hit by the second form anyway kupo ?
Ganon in AoC: YOU MAY THINK YOU’RE GOOD, BUT I’M BETTER!
@@minight1711 only the horse
A lot of these mechanics (savepoints healing, maps etc.) could be great master mode elements instead of just making enemies with more hp. It should also be available immediately.
I totally agree man. Giving enemies more health is so lame and boring. Honestly, it doesn't really make the game much harder once you know what you're doing.
Agreed, though the #1 component of Master Mode that was missing should've been nerfing the hell out of Hearty meals IMO.
My suggestion for Master Mode is to make the enemies smarter. BotW regular mode already did a good job of having enemies who have a mind of their own, let’s now take it to the next level.
@@kaydenchan7093 one idea is nerd foods and make it so you can only carry a couple at a time, as well as not as many ingredients. Obviously you'd need some exceptions, like the wood for the bolson questing, but it might help. Idk I thought of that in like 20 seconds
@@chief8595 True. If you are skilled enough. You can kill golden lynel or any harder enemies more easily. I actually struggled against silver lynel most because i learn his attacks but i have no problem against gold lynel because i know his attacks.
I love how there is so much effort put in all of these videos! 👌👍
I feel like skyward sword has some of the best dungeons in the series. The sand ship and cistern are some the best examples. I would like botw 2 to take some examples from those two. I also hope they bring up the durability of weapons.
Sandship is still my favourite dungeon in the series so far
Oh yeah definitely, skyward sword is literally my favourite of all the zelda games I've played because of its dungeons (and story, loved the story)
if only they didn’t spoil the solution to most major puzzles before you can even think up your own
@Manek Iridius yeah you are right but ocarina of time (especially master quest), majora mask and Breath of the wild didn't spoil their puzzles. Skyward sword has one of the best puzzles but fyi always spoils it. Other 3d zelda games actually didn't directly spoil it. But their dungeon feel very formulaic not every dungeons. I really love the dungeons of wind waker because of their puzzle design. They introduce some concept and expanded in that dungeon. But it still doesn't stop to formulaic. Even though they gave good puzzles. They are stil not on the level with Breath of the wild puzzles and Skyward sword. But 2d zelda are on other level dude. 2d dungeons are no doubt has the best dungeon along with oot and majora mask. But yeah there puzzles are still not great as breath of the wild, skyward sword and wind waker.
Skyward Sword really does have fantastic dungeons (that it keeps feeling the need to force you into a hint before you've had the opportunity to figure it out yourself) - We can debate the controls and with it the combat, and I have many, many, mixed feelings about basically every system it added onto the prior Zelda formula, but the dungeons? If the hints weren't forced on the player and instead were given via a fully fleshed out hint system (or not present at all)? Would easily be my favourite set of dungeons in the franchise.
Omg maze, ur video gave me an idea. What if the underground region is an actual dungeon where link and zelda have to explore everything, map it and so on. Like an archeological adventure.
Yes please! Let's go full Indiana Jones on this
YES definitely something I have in mind when thinking about BotW 2. I mean, think about what we saw in the trailer, all the archaeological Indiana Jones stuff are there :)
Don’t forget that one has to consider newer players or those with physical/mental limitations as from the sounds of the video, you are looking at it from a seasoned players perspective.
I think a good solution for this is through a difficulty system, we all know the usual Easy, Normal and Hard, but what if the difficulty were to change how the dungeon works?
Perhaps for Easy and Normal, the dungeon is the original/default version, it’s the one we are used to, infact keep mechanics such as maps and save points. For harder difficulties, make the dungeon more difficult through a slightly different layout whilst keeping parts of it the same, fewer save points, tougher enemies, etc.
If the game had a Nightmare Mode, go crazy with it, no save points, no map, the layout is revamped completely, a full-on labyrinth, a nightmare.
I still want to be able to solve puzzles in multiple ways. It makes solving them feel so rewarding. I agree with what you said in the video though. I can’t wait to see for ourselves in botw 2
Totally agreed. Multiple solutions are very fun ^^
@@MonsterMaze I know right, it was one of my favorite things about botw. Also just want to toss an idea by you, with the hollows in aoc, in botw2 do you think that Ganondorf will draw the malice out of link, like since malice is like anger and rage turned into energy, what if Ganondorf uses Link’s own malice to create a dark link made from his own rage and evil(similar to the older dark links), I have been thinking about this for a while and wanted to ask you.
I loved helping Waikuteru with that mod!
It was a real joy to put together, so I hope others will check him out!
You guys did an amazing job :O
@@MonsterMaze tysm, I'm glad you think so
The only reason that comes to mind as to why there are still some cinematics in games is because maybe people with hearing problems wouldn't be able to catch that iconic fanfare or other sound cues... But who knows
Oh! Also, as some other people mentioned, to help new players who've never played a 3D game
Thank you for actually critiquing past dungeons for the sake of improvement and not just mindlessly spreading potential hype for the sequel 👍 More content like that please, great video
Persona 5 palace could be a good inspiration for botw 2 dungeons
Regarding dungeon items and requirements: (there's a lot below, be forewarned!)
There is a real paradox here, because the inherent design of BotW that makes it so important and part of what makes it so fun is the complete and total open ended nature of the dungeons. *SO MANY Zelda analysts I have seen have just said "just do it like the old games and include items and puzzles that require those items" without truly appreciating the paradox between this and BotW's open ended design.* Not only does this kill the "find your own solution" core mechanic so important to BotW but also the "you already have what you need, if you can't do something it is _purely_ on you" , not because "you haven't visited this random town and talked to this NPC five times and then done a minigame to get an item".
With that said, I don't think there's _NO_ way to include semi-metroidvania elements into the series again, and without necessarily contradicting the game's original formula. Upgrading the Runes to include more uses (eg. destroying Cryonis pillars deals damage to nearby enemies and can launch link over obstacles, or allowing Cryonis to let Link temporarily run across water, or allowing Link to Stasis himself making him immune to damage and immovable for a couple of seconds, etc) and the like can allow for more dynamic solutions to puzzles, but _never_ be *required* outside of the dungeon that contains it, would be a pretty simple solution. This way, if a player figures out a way to use their new tools in a different dungeon that bypasses the intended solution, they'll still feel rewarded for having a new ability.
The game actually came kinda close here with the Champion Powers, except they were essentially "cheats" with cooldowns instead of genuine new tools for the toolbelt. I mean, many Shrines are already breakable with copius use of Bomb Arrows or certain other items, so I don't think it's unreasonable to let people create new solutions with an increasingly expanding toolkit. They _start_ with what lets them beat things the intended way and get more equipment that lets them come up with crazier ideas.
Oh, and as another random thing that's tangentially related, sidequests and chests should totally provide better rewards, but IMO the solution that works best with what BotW already has is unique Perks that permanently boost Link's abilities in certain areas. "Oh, you cleared the Divine Beast out of chests, now all Guardian/Ancient weapons are more durable." Or Link learns survivalist skills from a guy he helps, and now he'll get a yellow heart and some yellow stamina whenever he rests, even at a campfire. Or Link now deals an extra +15 damage when he breaks a weapon on an enemy, on top of the weapon's critical hit. It'd be a really easy way to pack loads of unique rewards into the game and make players eager to do every single side activity they find.
Completely agree with you. Yeah they should understand this paradox and didn't try to create a traditional zelda. We need formula of botw along with other games.
The read aloud function in Microsoft Edge finally comes handy. I do agree with everything you've pointed out, it's just that I am not expecting this to be in Breath of the Wild's Sequel, I'm keeping my expectations real low.
Frankly, the older 3D dungeons are pretty good the first time or the first time in a while. Every time I play them after that, it's kind of... eh. Their value for me shrinks to that of bosses/minibosses. I much prefer BotW's approach to dungeons, though a little linearity wouldn't hurt. That is to say, for an easier experience, yes, get all the things, come back later. But don't make it a requirement to cross Hyrule, do a sidequest, then trek all the way back just to get anywhere you want. I want to be allowed to flex a little intelligence and figure out an alternative route.
Here's a little example of this sort of design from MGSV:
One of the early missions tasks Venom Snake with extracting someone from a camp in Soviet-occupied Afghanistan. There are three main ways to get him out of the building he's held in.
1: Once you grab him, simply head outside while avoiding enemy contact, and either Fulton him out when no one is looking, or carry him out of the camp on your back. This is not easy, because you can't crawl or climb in this state, and you can't use your bigger weapons if the operation goes sideways.
2: If you replay this mission with a hard to find upgrade that replaces your Fulton balloons with a wormhole (because why not?), you can immediately extract him this way and trivialize that aspect of the mission. You get this upgrade by abducting a special jackal halfway across the world (because why not?).
3: Easily the best bit of game design. Once you grab your target, there is a hole in the ceiling that you can place him under elsewhere in the building. Normally, when you use your Fulton balloon indoors, it fails because the balloon can't breach the ceiling, let alone the aircraft that's meant to pick your target up. Because it's a balloon. But if you use it under this hole in the ceiling, it'll fly unhindered through the hole. Your support team will even commend you for this 200 IQ play.
BOTW's open ended design is largely flawed. The Slate abilities are like a chemistry set that wasn't very interesting. I never enjoyed using Cryonis or Stasis the way I enjoyed the Hookshot, or the Boomerang. I like sandbox elements in games, but I also want games to be games, where as most of the casuals who bought BOTW just want to run around with no restrictions in a completely free world. That's just boring to me. So you beat your 500th bokoblin camp by flying on your metal plate using magnesis. Neat, but also who cares. Where's the actual challenge and sense of accomplishment? When they ditched linearity completely they lost any real sense of the game being meaningful. There's only so many times you can make soup before you get bored. That's not to say they need to go back to the old formula. Have dungeons beatable in a loose order instead of in an a-z order. That's fine as long as they aren't like LBW's all modest difficulty dungeons. But give players who played Zelda before it became "BOTW (feat LOZ)" something worth playing.
@@cbalan777 yes it is flawed but not like you say. Statis is easily better than boomerang and hookshot which only work on some particular surface. It's over world force you to explore and find its secrets because their secrets are completely hidden by terrain of world.
13:28
I think the "real time" eating would be for the best. It would make the most sense logically, and it would also mean you can't eat right in the middle of a battle.
Maybe certain items can have certain eat times.
@@innocentpopsicle6797 Yeah, I think that the foods that heal a lot would take a long time to eat and those that heal less not that long
Age of calamity did that very well but I kinda disagree
I liked what Age Of Calamity did with the healing system, but I would argue that healing NEEDS to be in a pause menu. Just having that little break between fighting where you get to rest, eat, and prepare to fight again is, for me, the biggest part of the game.
Weirdly enough, this was how it worked in Skyward Sword, a game where you never needed to use a potion. Personally, I'd like them to go back to the bottles with soups and potions (now hand crafted) and leave the cooking to the chefs of the stalls or taverns, something like Monster Hunter with way greater time buffs (an hour or so for the more expensive dishes).
I really love your videos, and this is no exception, but some of the points made are not cut for a Zelda game, let them stay in Silent Hill type of games. I disagree with almost everything you mentioned, but it's always good to hear your thoughts! Keep up the work.
When talking about save spots, it was in Skyward Sword with the bird statues. While not exactly what you meant, which I think is a great idea, "save spots" have been in a Zelda game before.
Great video! I agree with a lot, but just want to note that things like limiting save spots can make games a lot less accessible for some players with disabilities. In my case, Hollow Knight’s save system when paired with its level and boss design is a huge part of why I can’t finish the game. I really wouldn’t want something similar to happen with botw2.
yea I struggle with fast inputs that most games require which is why I usually play on easy. one thing I wish more games had was customizable difficulty. I recently started persona 4 golden and in the menu, you can change the difficulty for specific parts (like how much exp you get, how much damage the enemy does, stuff like that). this helped a lot with making the game more accessible and enjoyable
I do personally think that the map being given at the start is amazing, as well as the compass. Maybe some people have your views on it, but I always struggle with classic Zelda dungeons, so being able to see where I am, as well as know early on where I can go is super helpful for me.
The eating/healing mechanic could learn from Genshin Impact. Your character can get full based on how big the meal is.
the game doesn’t need it but bonus heart food could get nerfed since you just save up hearty radishes and truffles and cook them with nothing to get insta heal food
@@chelronin7843 Ah!! That's a good point you make. :o There are a lot of loopholes to it.
They should reduce food slots to 10 and make it so that you have to eat in real time.
No let zelda be zelda genshin is literally the greediest game ever no need for shitty mechanics from genshin
Genshin could learn from botw
Everyone watch Monster Maze's old dungeon vids they're so good!!
This are the quality videos i subscribed for!
Thanks!
I think dungeon should have a real purpose instead of being just some "Trial rooms"
In skyward sword the dungeons were "staged" by the goddess and removes the feel of it being an ancient temple
I felt that the Hyrule Castle in Botw was the closest to that
12:20 Skyward Sword: Am I a joke to you?
Every time Monster Maze uploads, 1 thousand puppies are saved.
He always seems to upload whenever I'm about to mass euthanize puppies
@@JoeLikesBlue hold up-
Thank god!
Great video as expected. As long as there’s no water dungeon in the sequel I’ll be fine
When I played Oot the water temple was the only one I didn't need a guide for. I was very confused about all the jokes because I didn't find it to be that difficult. But I guess everyone has their own experiences
@@evalynbaun6672 i didn’t find the water temple difficult but I found it repetitive and tedious. And the boss was... Was not bad but not good. I just generally don’t like water dungeons but I haven’t played twilight princess or wind waker yet so that may change
I played OoT on the 3DS, and it was my favorite dungeon in the game, simply because it was so labyrinthian, and finding my way to the end was immensely satisfying. Also, I didn't find it that repetitive.
@@thedorklord1029 yeah i played it on 3ds as well. And I think the only reason I found it repetitive was because I didn’t know what i was doing so i kept having to change the water level up and down. Thats just my experience though
@@domino3861 yeah it is not repetitive. It is the best dungeon in that game. You had to make mentle map of dungeon.
another banger! i’ve missed your vids since i haven’t gotten my hands on calamity warriors (i don’t want spoilers) and i’m happy i get to watch them again :)
another Dungeon video from the master Monster Maze himself. Hell yea!!!
I really enjoyed this video!! I like how you give suggestions for everything you don't like instead of just saying you don't like something
I feel like Majora’s Mask handled this idea of exploration and difficulty in its dungeons perfectly. With the ability to revisit the uncompleted dungeon time and time again, gave you the ability to find things you didn’t discover the first time while still making it challenging to get to the item again. The stone tower temple made you complete it twice in order to get to the boss. Once with the light arrows and without. With an additional mechanic of having to beat the dungeon before the end of time. Once you beat the entire game 100% it does get a bit unfulfilling to revisit a place time and time again, but there is really no way to work around that. PS. MAJORAS MASK IS BEST GAME!!
Oh man, getting all stray fairies would have been a nightmare otherwise...
I really like your work. I disagree with most of your opinions in this video. I still appreciate the quality of the video though.
^^^
Great video, well made, almost completely disagree with the points made. Enjoyed watching it regardless!
I really enjoyed your video! Great points and def relatable!!
I'm glad to see you going back to your roots :)
I originally subscripted to your channel because I find dungeon analysis interesting (I stayed because you are amazing per se of course) so I'm glad to enjoy that topic again
I liked Link's Awakening's method of chiming when you entered a room to know there was a secret there still and that's it.
I hope we do get Traditional Dungeons back, and your suggestions also sound like they'd improve it a lot, I especially agree that Silent Hill handled the maps very well.
Personally, there are some dungeons (like the water temple) that I would rage quit if I didn't have my bearings. I want the map and compass in many dungeons, and many people don't want the map and compass.
The best solution is to give everyone what they want and make obtaining the map and compass an optional sidequest that you can do before entering the dungeon.
All I'm thinking of is Vah Rudania, and how it was so cool having a dungeon that started off pitch black and relied on flame and lighting mechanics!
...then you immediately get the map and the whole thing opens up and becomes just like all the other dungeons. I really wish that dungeon had a longer progression and the map didn't come so early, so I'm with you there.
"Without a touchscreen."
Me, a handheld Switch user - ?????
It also has to work in docked mode, to a certain degree
besides, Breath of the wild doesn't support touch screen
I agree with most points you discussed here. The disagreements I have are generally in regards to accessibility. I think there's a fine line between creating reasonable challenge/discovery and pushing away younger or less experienced players. For instance, I'm all for making the maps less detailed than BotW's, but hesitant to simplify the maps beyond, say, Ocarina of Time's. I was also hesitant about removing the compass, but maybe they can handle it like BotW's shrines, only telling the player once they've opened every chest. I have complex feelings on whether or not the game should show what switches unlock or not, but I do like your minimap and picture-in-picture suggestions.
The one I have the toughest time reasoning with is the food mechanic. While I acknowledge it's overpowered, I know several players who wouldn't have been able to beat the game had it not existed. Your suggestions, like limiting how much can be consumed at a time, are genuinely well thought out, but I wonder if there's some better kind of balance that can be achieved.
Gosh, I was rambling pretty bad there, haha. Thanks for reading this, if you do, and more importantly, thank you very much for such thought-provoking and wonderful entertainment. Your content always makes me smile. :3
I’ve been waiting for this!!!!!
Last time Iwas this early skyloft was more groundloft
The point of showing the doors opening you is to show where the door is ! And I like how it shows everything the 3d elements are the attention of detail
“If you write your comment in a quote like form people will read it all the way”
-Gameryusic 825 on the video “The Man Who Floated Into Space”
I love your lore content, but I’m glad to have this style back! I loved your first video.
I also hope Nintendo takes notes on your videos.
I remember you very well from my Items video. You have been here for a long time! (well.. long in terms of my channel's existence that is, haha)
Thanks for sticking around, despite me deviating from my initial videos.
@@MonsterMaze I was introduced by the Zelda community, so I really have no complaints regardless of the style. Plus your sheer video quality makes anything you do worth a watch.
i don't think its going to be in the game but i love the idea of you having to draw to mark points on the map that look interesting, i just find very cool the idea of you finding an suspicious point in a cave and then opening your map and writing in it an annotation about the thing you just saw, i am currently learning how to make games and i am probably using the idea some day
Link's Awakening's Switch Remake has the map marker mechanic in dungeons that you mentioned, though it still shows chest locations when you find the compass
I see what you mean about the cutscene fragments when you open doors and unlock things or solve puzzles. But personally I've always enjoyed that. Sometimes it gives me a moment to breathe. Plus I enjoy the aesthetic of it, makes it feel more magical. I do get annoyed sometimes for some of the lesser ones, like stepping on a switch multiple times to have it do the same cutscene every time, but I think that im willing to live with that to keep some of my other stuff.
I think most of these suggestions are cool for harder difficulty or something like 2nd playthrough, but not for new players and those who definitely needs that 'camera moving' thing in terms of accessibility. Great video as always, though!
I guess I'm too used to harder games. I grew up playing games like ultima underworld, which.. well... don't care how experienced you are haha. It will kick your ass at first. Then you get better and better, and you start to turn the tides
Older video games were designed that way to deliberately eat up time (partly because that's how arcade games increase profit and partly because there were so few games published that they had to last until the next release). Modern day games are in competition with tons of other activities and entertainments as well as hundreds of other games. If the game tries to frustrate the player on purpose, like in the past, the player can drop the entire series and play something else, in which case there will be no sequel sales.
The model that you grew up with is tailored for a fundamentally different environment than today.
It would be a shame if a big title like Zelda had its difficulty tailored for only people who grew up rich enough to own a home console and was able to develop solid gaming foundation skills as a kid, and it's not exactly the welcoming message that the Nintendo brand stands for.
I think something missing from your list is "Organicity"
From my perspective, Hyrule Castle is widely liked by the Zelda community because it is so organic. Yes, if you want, you can merely skip everything and go straight up to the throne room, however, as you explore the different rooms and find diaries left behind, you get the undeniable feeling, that this was indeed a castle a 100 years ago.
Unlike many temples in the past, which are temples only in name, when I explored Hyrule castle in Breath of the wild, the mechanisms and layout felt logical and not like they were forcing a gimmick and slapping a volcanic/forest/desert theme on it.
Not to say that linearity isn't good. In fact, I would have a hard time thinking of a good puzzle that isn't, in some point, linear. But I would love if in Breath of the wild 2, the developers could design the dungeons with mechanics that holds up with the purpose of the building.
In addition to having places you know you can't get to yet and having to remember to come back when you win the ability, I also want that sense of game-changing discovery where you realize you can go someplace you thought was completely out of bounds, or didn't even know existed - cliff edges that seemed completely inaccessible, or another time or world.
**Nintendo watching this video like**
“Write that down! WRITE THAT DOWN!”
Man CZcams notifications are awful i wasn't notified but great video as always monster maze
As a designer I really enjoy content talking about design. Great video!
I love the Food eating real time plan with a fullness meter that goes down as you run... That would be amazing. Possibly drop the food if hit during the animation and have to pick it back up, and have the hearts restore gradually. Save points in dungeons, markers for saves in the over-world that you get to drop(need to pick up later as a limited number? Crafting them to get more?) and they are your teleport points (other than buildings with them built in).
Nintendo employ this guy
I'm sure they already have tons of guys like monster maze on their staff.
@@marche800 r u sure? if so then who do they need to fire for shutting these ideas down?
@@grayson8059 I doubt the ideas were shit down they just didn't come up at the time or didn't gain enough traction.
NINTENDO
HIRE THIS MAN
Wait, but he didn't put Nintendo Characters in Unreal Engine...
Meh, I disagree with a lot this guy says. He’s too game developer driven (which is a bad thing in this case)
I think in The Wind Waker we had something like save spots in the Dungeons with the teleportation pots, which you had to unlock to teleport from the entrance of the dungeon to the part where you left off if you had to save mid-dungeon. Because after restarting the game you always start at the entrance of the dungeon if you saved within it
i played through all my favorite LoZ games over the pandemic and it made me realize just how much i hate looking for keys, and how useless the compass was. by the time i actually got the compass in the games i had opened pretty much every chest already. and going back through every room & fighting the same enemies over and over to find all these keys was so annoying, i appreciate BOTW bc when i had to use keys they were always nearby
I clicked SO fast ! Finally a video I can watch ! Thank you Don ! :D
Edit : Now that I've finished watching the video, I agree with you about everything ! Although, I found useful mini cut-scenes to indicate a door that opens for exemple ! I had played Minish Cap and Windwaker when I was little but never went past the beginning, so BOTW was my "real" first Zelda game, and those mini cut-scenes kind of helped me, especially when I had no idea what the switch had just done haha.
I think that if the game had been a bit more difficult in terms of exploration and dungeon mechanics, I might not have played to the end, because I would have been frustrated as a first-time player !
And as always, thank you for this great video, grandpa :D
You damn kids!
@@MonsterMaze 🤣🤣🤣
Ahhh that skyview temple mod is so good!
As someone with a terrible sense of direction, having the map tell me my location is a huge lifesaver. I don't think it needs to be there all the time, but in convoluted spaces it can really help. If the goal of the dungeon is to solve a puzzle and the room just happens to turn you around easily (no distinguishing features or lots of bends) I think there should be something to help the player out. Maybe that just comes down to better landmarks so direction can be more easily distinguished. If navigation was the whole point of the trial, like in BotW's sandstorms, I'd be okay with more limited intel. I just don't want to be fighting with my own problems more than was intended.
Great Video as always. Please give us more. I need Input, MORE INPUT!!
You are definitly the best CZcamsr on the planet. Keep it up!
Sound effects as audio queues alone are hardly strong enough indicators that somethings changed. Just rough metal scraping to indicate a door unlocked would be buried by music, the players movement and action sounds, and by other sounds produced by the environment. Let alone players not being glued to the screen every single second.
How many players would be completely at a loss that they solved a puzzle if litterally nothing happened directly infront of then to inform them they completed it? Those cinematic camera queues and music jingles are there for a reason.
Even the bokoblin and moblin camp chest is a reasonable example. Not all camps have them, and you may miss if one is present just by being caught up in combat, or forgotten that they had been reset from a blood moon. So in those instances its a helpful feature. Otherwise it just unlocks without informing you, so most people would just skip past it.
It’s kinda important to remember not every one eats and sleeps Zelda games. Features you may find “annoying” because of your own game playing habits are there to inform and remind other players who aren’t as familiar as you are.
“An option to disable jingles and puzzle completion cinematics would be great. Maybe even as part of a higher difficulty modes such as Hero or Master mode.” Succinctly gets the idea across, without disregarding the usefulness of these features out of hand.
This is the same company that had to put a Goomba right at the beginning of Super Mario Bros., because play testers had trouble figuring out how to engage enemies and navigate the envious by just simply jumping. It’s safe to say they know what they are doing. The formula is in place for a reason.
I gotta say, as a Deaf person, being shown when and where the door is opening or where a treasure appears is the visual cue that matches the sound which is played. It is neccessary and I hope you understand Nintendo never should get rid of it for that reason. Accessibility is more important than your slight impatience haha!
There’s save spots in Majora’s Mask? It’s literally how you saved the game
on the map bit, Exanima has a map in random locations for each level, but the map itself is basically literally just a piece of paper with lines. You can't edit it, you can't zoom in, and you can't pinpoint where you are (unless you already sort of know the lay out).
I personally love this, as it forces me to be aware of where I am, and leads to me learning the layout more accurately (once I figure out how to read the map lol) Luckily there is also compasses you can find in the game, so you can orient yourself better.
Very nice video. But in OoT Master Quest it doesn't show you what happens when you hit a switch/press a button and sometimes it's quite annoying to work out what happened. Personally, I like the short cutscenes. But each to their own, and I agree completely about OP food. Maybe it could be solved by banning link from eating raw food? That way the player would have to prepare in advance (much like how in previous games players would take red/green potions into big fights).
Nice ideas! Concerning the map and the compass, an interesting idea would be to have a map separated into pieces, revealing only a quarter of it. And for the compass, it could indicate the direction of a selected item ("chest", "boss", "exit"...) rather than showing everything on the map.
man, I never really noticd those scripted cameras, but now you've mentioned it I'll probably see them all the time :D
Well, although I see where you are coming from and want these changes to be happening, and I even would love to see these happening myself, I'm not agreeing with you on many parts here. The reason is accessability. The points you are taking here clearly come from somebody who is very used to playing video games and Zelda in particular. But as a developer you have to take into account that not all the players are hardcore gamers who have been playing Zelda for 2 or 3 decades. Many of the mechanics you mention in this video are in there because of that exact reason.
I have watched two friends playing Zelda (AlttP and OoT) for their very first time. This was an incredibly interesting experience for me as a veteran. And it actually enlarges your horizon: A mechanic that you think is totally obvious, might be completely confusing or mind-blowing to other or new players. This really helped me getting a new perspective on game design (particularly Zelda game design).
Thanks! I was thinking the same thing but was struggling to put it into words!
I like how Resident Evil 2 Remake's map system works where there's actually many different things that occur with each map, and I think this should serve as inspiration for BotW 2's map design:
-The map in RE2 actually highlights between red and blue based on if you managed to get all of the items or not; this helps with progression since you'll know there may be a treasure you missed or an item that may be important enough to not have highlighted the area as "complete" yet.
-The map in RE2 highlights any items that the character has seen in their view and can be picked up later if need be; this is a convenient tool that shows that the character remembers where the item is and marks it down on the map for future usage. This in particular can be used for the chests and chests alone, and for chests containing currency/ammo that you need to put back because you have too much, it can even highlight what you picked up and put back.
-The map in RE2 also highlights what door is locked behind a key item with a symbol for said key item/
-The map in RE2 also fills out based on how many areas you go into until you finally get the actual maps to the places you've been.
In fact, RE2's map system seems to be pretty much what you're suggesting for the map system in the sequel for BotW. If you have RE2 Remake, I'd highly suggest looking at how the map system feels in that game, as well as its progression. It's pretty Zelda-like but with freedoms that you described.
Genshin Impact: Breath of the Waifu has a 'fullness' meter in regards to food healing, which prevents the players from spam eating.
Now that is a great solution
this is such a good video i love it
In November i decided to stop watching Zelda content until i omlete Age of Calamity, today i finally completed.
It´s great to come back and see your videos!!
Welcome back! ^^
I like the idea of using stamps to mark things on the dungeon maps. And for the healing thing maybe Link can only heal from dishes and cooked foods (baked apples, seared steak, etc). That way he can't stuff 27 spicy peppers in his face to fully restore his hearts lol. Regardless, I am excited to see what Aonuma and the team have planned for this sequel! I'm so ready for new info!!
i agree on scripted camera events on things done once, like opening chests in bokoblin camps, but with chests containing significant item inside it's always thrilling to get that animation and sound clip.
i also agree on not having an animation on doors opening in the same room or right in front of you, but ones opening somewhere else we can't see, especially if in a packed dungeon, are always welcomed because it helps in knowing which specific door opened where, especially if you continue playing a game days after last time you did and might not remember where each door or room is located or what you were doing. plus showing the door opening is immersive, like witnessing an event the main character in a movie doesn't. it gets you, as a viewer of said event, involved in the story unfolding.
i agree on not having the map right away, but rather have it be revealed further in the dungeon you go, however i don't agree on not being shown all the chests eventually. some chests tend to be hidden well and without the ability of free cam they might not ever be found so having some indication would be nice. there could be a percentage of the entire map, or even specific room, to let the player know they haven't found everything there. or maybe a message upon finding everything that the map is completed or if not complete then greyed out rooms where there's still stuff to find.
I know you only want to focus on puzzles and not mention ennemies, but honestly the lack of monsters and minibosses in the divine beasts was easily one of the biggest weaknesses of the divine beasts, because working on the survivability is ok but aside from the blights, not a single divine beast features an enemy against which you cant die unless actually not moving kupo
great content
like this mechanical perspective
Has anyone seen the map in Hollow Knight? I think it's a very well made one. It goes like this:
1. Buy the area map from a specific person
2. Instantly unlock partial map
3. When you explore a new area and go to a checkpoint (bench) it will be written to the map
4. Landmarks you discover will be written to the map when explored.
I'd say this is an almost perfect map system.
One note I've had about the map, is that they could take inspiration from the original ratchet and clank game, in which the map is filled in if the character is in the area and sees the area. This would give a huge sense of familiarity with hyrule and make the player more motivated to explore everything they can, that's how mazes would be more challenging. Adding onto stamps, you could only stamp areas where your been
On the topic of healing, I think the gradual regeneration method is the way to go. If most foods only caused Link to regenerate up to a certain amount of health then it would introduce a push and pull feeling to combat, you get to be aggressive and reckless when you have high health, but if you get hit them you need to play on the defensive until you have regenerated back to a safe level.
Then you could also introduce special types of food that heal you instantly. This could be how hearty food works, the buff that hearty food gives would be getting extra yellow hearts instantly on top of the regular regeneration from the dish. Or perhaps instant healing could be a unique trait of elixirs, making them actually worth while.
Showing a door opening many times is essential for people less game literate. Your gripes with it is legit too though, so something clever is in order
One idea that comes to mind for
reducing scripted camera events would be to do something seen in a couple of
other games like Gears of War and PSO2 and have an option to hold a button to
move the camera and show an event happening. The games mentioned use this for
cinematic reasons, but I feel like it could also work for optional tutorial
info. It’s certainly possible for someone to just not realize where to look for
something happening and lose track of what they’re supposed to do next in that
way. If they get confused, they could press the switch and hold the optional
button to view the extra information.
I agree very much on freedom. One
issue I’ve had with open-world titles from time to time is the feeling of
having nothing left to explore very early on in the game. Even if there are
lots of events and things to do that require progress, being able to go
everywhere can make the world feel very small because you’re made very aware of
the overall boundaries of the map. Having new areas open up or become
accessible later on, even if it’s the same total map area, makes it feel like
the boundaries are more fluid or temporary and that there’s always more to see
out there. I think it helps with the sense of wonder and discovery.
I wonder if part of the problem with
a map is finding it all at once and kind of taking it for granted. If you think
about it, it’s a lot of info to get all at once time without knowing much about
what’s relevant. Another thing that can hurt the functionality of the map is
being shown a bunch of information you already clearly know. Dungeons are often
quite easy to navigate by sight alone and while that’s not actually a bad thing,
getting handed a big chunk of information when you can already observe a lot of
it for yourself can make you less likely to check it when you might actually
want to. I wonder if the map could be improved by dividing the information up
more and having Link find, through some means, bits of information that reveal
more on your map. These could be unique to a dungeon, such as notes from a lost
traveler in one dungeon, or fragments of someone’s memory in another. Perhaps another
dungeon could have you using echo-location to map it out section by section.
Link getting the information in the game would translate to the map being more
filled out in your menu.
What I love most in a game when it
comes to saving/survival balance is having set save points that, for the most
part, can be accessed at will once discovered. I’m fine with having to make
progress without the ability to save immediately at every moment, but I also
like having some control over just how far that gets pushed, deciding for
myself when I’m comfortable forging on ahead, or going back to the save point. I
don’t like it when games rely on limiting safe progress to force a challenge,
because I feel like they tend to rely on survival/endurance too much down the
road. When all they need to do is bump the risk and cut off saving, there isn’t
any need to make the content more challenging or complex. In the long term, I
feel like it actually limits challenge because you have to expect the player to
survive after being worn down for a long time whereas there’s no need to hold
back when you can save beforehand.
When it comes to difficulty, I much
prefer being expected to do something very difficult after saving my game over
being expected to do something easier without saving. I want a safety net, but followed
by a challenge that justifies me needing it. XD But people are very different
on how stress affects the kind of gameplay they like and how much they need in
a good challenge, so having merely an option to go back and save wouldn’t
remove the ability to press forward and risk more. If even having the option is
an issue, you could actually add a cost to unlocking a save point that requires
at least some extra effort. Could be a nice use for Rupees. :)
I think the best way to use the menu would be using the theory that says link's power as a champion is to slow down time and make something like this: when you open the menu, time is stopped so it acts as an actual pause menu and each action you make(like moving trough the items or switching weapons) would cast a specific amount of time, with scrolling through the menu being a fraction of a second passing, eating a food being enough time for an enemy to slightly move and etc...
Interesting video and suggestions for the upcoming BoTW 2 sequel...
I think real-time eating would be best, with some foods taking longer to consume than others. Elixers and potions could be consumed almost instantly, making them ideal for use in combat, while large meals could take a little longer.
I'm glad I'm not the only one talking about restrictions. Without restrictions I find my play style gets stale because there's nothing stopping me from being lazy.
In the Sword trials I had to get super creative and I had a blast because the stuff I'd normally abuse were taken away.
This video is amazing. It addresses what can be possible in the sequel and the flaws that were in BotW.
I would keep the compass because not only is it a staple but it is handy in saying that you missed something. What's more is that the map, the compass, and the dungeon item all represent your mastery over the dungeon. You learn the rules that govern the place and master them. If dungeons are supposed to feel like adventures within an adventure, then having a map and compass is even more crucial. The map can only show you the general layout of the dungeon which at that point you should already be familiar with. The map represents this familiarity while being a handy tool. The compass also represents this progression in mastery over the dungeon, now you aren't just familiar with the dungeon but you know it yet you have yet to master it and its rules. Thus the compass fills in what the map itself cannot tell you, because you know the dungeon you can detect and see secrets that you couldn't beforehand. The item represents true mastery of the dungeon and its rules. This is why I think that the compass should be kept. Alternatively you could give the compass a overworld feature. By finding compasses "or some equivalent" in dungeons, it fuses and upgrades your compass allowing you to see more secrets in the overworld and in dungeons.
It would be really cool if the cutscenes for triggering changes and switches was an optional setting. That way, if you find you’re missing things you can turn it on, and if it’s taking you out of the gameplay, you can turn it off
I hope that if there are new areas outside the map as well as caves, you will have to map out the areas yourself as there are no shiekah towers underground or outside the main area.
For the food case
Genshin impact has this mechanic that if you let the character eat it will get to a point that it will be full
Then you have to wait until you can eat again (get hungry xD)
Great video as always keep it up man
Great video
you deserve much more subs!
I'm going to go against making the map difficult to track down. At that point all you are encouraging people to do is either to wander around blindly until they find the map, or wander around blindly until they get annoyed and google the map of the dungeon.
On the note of progression another thing I would love to see for future Zelda games would be to lean a bit further into the Soulsborne Bonfire design. Now I'm not saying you have experience points that can only be leveled up at a bonfire, what is suggest is a save station repository. One aspect I have come to notice in Zelda games is that there is no penalty for dying other than the minor - moderate inconvenience of retracing your steps. If you die you can just bash your head against a brick wall until you eventually break through. What I think would work well is to do away with traditional saves, and implement a system where you can only save at specific points (In BOTW terms something like Sheikah Shrines, towns, secluded homes, etc).
When you reach a safe point you can deposit all your currently held items and materials. These locations should also have a cooking station where your able to cook all the food you desire, however; your inventory has a limited amount of slots allowed for cooked items. Now the point to all this is that when your out adventuring between save points if you die to either foe or environment you drop all the materials, and weapons you have collected beyond the last save point, and your returned to that same save point. Of course give people a chance to collect their lost unless they die a second time without collect them. This also goes hand in hand with the suggestion of only being able to eat food in real time and not spam an infinite amount of healing items from your inventory.
I think this way It would make players think more carefully about how they engage in exploration, combat, and dungeon crawling. Do you want to climb this high mountain? Are you ready to tackle this difficult enemy? Do you want to raid this third camp after you gained some good items from the first two? How much are you willing to risk when there's the possibility of great loses if you overextend yourself. Side not if a Master mode were to happen I would also like to see a big nerf on the amount of hearts food replenishes.
This si the type of video that make you diferent and truly special
So pumped for this & Elden ring!
Hurdle Castle isn't a perfect example of how dungeons should be in an open world style, but compared to the Divine Beasts, I think it's way closer. Aside from the fact that you can reach the boss without participating in the "dungeon" at all and the relatively small quantity of puzzles I have no complaints.
It has unique gear to be obtained, hidden lore information, high level enemies, a unique theme and aesthetic, diverse room shapes and environments, a mini-boss, hidden rooms with bombable walls. It's unsurprising that it gets so much love