Who Decides What's Good?
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- čas přidán 7. 07. 2024
- A word on music education, elitism in academia, and how access can shape art. Who decides what's good art and what isn't?
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www.buymeacoffee.com/annedern
0:00 Intro
2:21 What Even Is Music Theory?
5:12 What Role Does Genre Play?
5:58 How Do You Learn Best?
7:23 Going Into Debt
8:50 A Story Of Gatekeeping And Elitism
13:06 Who Decides What's Good?
15:25 Has Music Gotten Worse?
17:59 A Word On Resources
22:06 When Do You Need Degrees?
24:31 Some Final Words About Learning
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#education #elitism #musictheory
As some one who has a music degree and has also written jingles and pop songs, I can answer the question, why do the academics get angry at you for doing deep-dive videos? Because you’re so much better at teaching it than they are. You’re showing them up. People like you, Ryan Leach, Rick Beato, Paul Thompson - I’ve learned far more, far better from you than I did in college or even OTJ in Nashville studios. The cream rises to the top, and there’s no longer anyone to hold you down so they can keep their vaunted position which they earned by playing the academic game rather than by being great teachers.
@aaron singer, if you're better than Rick at teaching ear training and music theory, start a channel. I'll sub.
YES
As someone also with a music degree and who is also writing pop songs, I completely agree!
Rick beato is an actual legend. If it wasn't for him I wouldn't understand musical keys or modes or even chord structure. The man is a wonderful resource. And so is this person I just found her channel today while I'm at work lol so I got my headphones and and just learning as I go xD
They also want success to be dictated by their (supposedly high) standards and it is not. It is talent/originality/creativity (and timing) driven, no formal education required.
"Why are you playing chords without the root note?!? Are you looking for trouble?" Love it!! Your perspective is mine.
Those jazz players are ALWAYS looking for trouble... ;-P
This was classic!!!
@@AnneKathrinDernComposer HAHAH!!! you got it!!! TROUBLE is where the fun is . . . !!!
It's because they showed up to the live gig 15 mins before the show starts, after the house has opened and an hour after the sound check was supposed to be complete. They don't have time to bring the root notes in from their car/van.
That root note is usually imagined by the listener and that's what engages and rewards them. This quality is also what allows Jazz and other similar (world) music to have longer shelf life.
As a disabled composer, I cannot express enough how much I appreciate this discourse.
I live by Rick Beato's philosophy of music theory being simply a way to name the things you hear. Another wise thing I heard from a music school colleague once: "music dictates music theory but music theory doesn't dictate music."
Oh I like that quote! It basically sums up the first half of my video in a way more efficient and eloquent way.
Not to sum up anything else you said in your video, but I like to hear that message every so often of (more or less bluntly) "always be humble and check your ego at the door" - one of the most valuable lessons I learned in academia honestly. Side note: thanks for speaking up for us millennials there near the end!
I love how you're not only in a power position, but you're using your experience and platform to break down the system one myth at a time.🔥
I wish your videos were around 20 years ago. Would have saved my sanity in music school.
I remember saying that I liked 50 Cent and a violinist was like, 'I didn't know the symphony orchestra was lowering their standards for good brass players'.
I cold turkeyed on music after graduating.
Thank you for this F the system video 🤘🙏
About 5 years ago I went into piano store and discussed with the owner (guy who was about 55) about electric piano and played him a Piano peace I composed from My MP3 player. He was impressed saying "This is very good" but then asked what university did I go to and I said "none I'm self tought" and His face dropped in shock and said "Right well I cant help you, piano is not for you, goodbye" and waved his hand to the door, for Me to leave.
he was terrified of your raw power :D
20 years ago there wasn’t internet on today’s means yet :-) BTW : I forwarded this video to all ... parents of my students !
It's insane how mature you are while being so young. I might have needed half of my life to get near your wisdom. Please spread it around and never stop. It's incredibly refreshing.
You're not only a composer, you're a speaker. You can blow me away in a voice without any emotion. You are so great.
Tristan like you I’m deeply impressed. But by that wonderful combination of experience and (controlled but real) feelings. Yeah, the presentation is great. AK is a Professorin now.
“Who decides what’s good?”
The listener. It doesn’t matter if it is a music theory masterpiece or the biggest mess of theory to ever exist. If people like it then it is good
OMG this is a must watch for everyone not just students not just musicians. I already appreciated and respected you but this takes you to another level. Thank you so much for doing this for all of us.
I suppose it's just in my generation's nature to challenge the systems in place... The more people speak up, the sooner things can evolve into something better.
Very well said! When I first got into classical music I went through a phase of evaluating all music based on qualities of Stravinsky - but that was such an adolescent and foolish way to look at music. There's a heart within most music that goes well beyond any theory.
I would say one big thing "theory" has helped me with is being able to understand and dissect other people's music, and quickly - which has definitely helped me massively with composing and conducting. You can learn more from studying other people's music than any textbook can teach you!
Loving this channel, thanks for sharing
Simply not true. Both methods are worthwhile. To say that textbooks and courses have no value is just as close minded as the people and institutions you are disparaging.
Well said, Oscar! I think you are saying that textboook theory helps with the more important learning from other people's music. I'm struck though, by Anne-Kathrin's point about using modal interchange intuitively. Inspiration and intuition are even more important. I wonder if music theory or listening to other peoples music helps with that?
Love the start of this video.. buckling up!
Loved this video! I have been saying this in the UK for years. A very insightful look into a world that is changing slowly for the better. Great work and well said!
"The joke's on them now!" Indeed Anne-Kathrin! Another great, inspirational video, thank you so much for sharing :)
You're amazing Anne-Kathrin, thanks for sharing 👏👏👏
Watching your videos and implementing your advice, I've learned in one month more than since I started learning music 2 years ago. None courses and\or CZcams videos are even close to what you share! Keep it up🔥
I'm so glad to hear that! That's what this is all about!
Genuinely thank you for your shared thoughts! I do hope that these video will help someone who need them in the right moment to decide and not give up music creation just because they don't have formal degree or have been rejected. Also thank you for sharing your personal story. I'm pretty sure you already making difference. Real one.
Thank you! I hope this helps someone in a moment of need.
Thank you so much for this video, it‘s very inspirational.
My dreams of becoming a Tonmeister and creating Music in general shattered at the entrance exams and I turned my back on music for many years.
With your content and the way you present it, you inspire and motivate me to be creative again. Which is the most important thing for me with any teacher. And on top of that, there is brilliant information, structured in a way that makes the topics more accessible to me.
The problem with most film music academics is that it's more about your arguments for why you write something than the real thing you're expressing in music. The latter ensures that it is more about the technique than the music. You are right that expensive education is no guarantee of success. What you do in practice, including the awards, makes you.
What a FANTASTIC video....outstanding! ..thank you.
What a great video. I really appreciate your words here. It's basically the same reason, I didn't study music at a school. My education was basically to low, to even set a foot on the campus of music universities. So I just did my own research, read books, took a few classes from udemy, and luckily found your CZcams Channel, which actually gave me all informations to build my career up to now. I'm very happy to have the chance accessing videos by professional content creators and industry professionals like you here on CZcams. Thank you for this video and your inspiring words Anne-Kathrin ☺
Thank you so much for this!
Thank you for posting this.
"I am convinced half of their chords are just clusters" ..cracked me up! Very thoughtful and genuine perspectives throughout the whole video.. thank you so much for sharing your experience!!
Thank you Anne-Kathrin; inspirational and empowering!
Gatekeeping is probably the thing I abhor the most about my music profession. Thank you so much for this video. I had a similar journey as you, luckily eventually getting a partial scholarship. But I learned as much, if not more, outside of academia as inside. I just found you and I am fan.
This was very inspiring! Thank you 😊.
Really funny and cool of you! Thanks for your two cents
Insightful and very true as well!
Thanks Anne
The timeliness of this video was perfect for me.. this is something I have been struggling will a lot lately. I appreciate your truth!
Thank you very much for sharing so openly your experience. I like your human perspective, i.e. talking real things and knowing the diversity of people. btw a big respect for your eloquence. You and Jürgen (Klopp, FC Liverpool) are my motivators in learning languages. Cheers from Freiburg.
Love this video. It gives a great feeling.
Great video! I've been enjoying your videos, your music sounds great! Congratulations on successfully making it through the tough road of Education and not giving up.
Once again dropping facts in this video. I so appreciate the absolute candor in your videos!
Anne-Kathrin your opinion about this subject really hits home for me, thank you so much for your wisdom.
Great video! I love music and I love learning, so please keep up your good work.
Thank you for this!
Great video Anne, respect! 🙌
I spent this video pointing at the screen in fervent agreement but keeping quiet bc I didn't want to miss the next sentence. You preach it, Ms. Dern! Yes! I can personally attest to many points made here.
You're speaking the truth here, and for that, and because of what you deliver musically, you're one of the greatest out there I think. Thanks for making music and videos 🙏
Dear Anne, my most sincere congratulations for all the content of your YT channel. Greetings from Argentina
Amazing Anne!
Excellent video and topic. Thanks!
My pleasure!
This is a testimony to persistence and not giving up. I learned more about music after I left university than I ever did during the years I studied it there. As you said, everyone learns differently and a classroom isn’t always conducive for all. Plus, I found the level of teaching was much better In faculty of arts compared to fine arts.
Many thanks for this video. Lots of wisdom here that I would hope to see every person to hear. It gives words to my own thoughts on not just music but knowledge in general.
here goes a token of my appreciation, and a middle finger to all those elitists that told you that you can't give it away for free.
For me music is a hobby for which I wouldn't pay the price of a degree, both in time and money. I'm learning so much with resources like your channel and other similar ones.
My contribution is just a small thing to encourage you to continue. I assume there are young people who are also learning with your channel and have a brilliant future in music.
Thanks Anne-Kathrin!
Thanks for sharing your own experiences and being so brave to challenge the system. I love your videos and now I love how great path you had to arrive to what you are and what you represent to musicians!!! You motivated me a lot!!! Thanks for your sincerity 😀🫶
I'm glad to hear that!
I add my voice to those of all the others here who appreciate and applaud your thinking. There is too much gatekeeping in so many artistic and scholastic areas-too much elitism, too much attempt to be the sole arbiter of what is good and what is not good, who is worthy of access to the sacred knowledge and who is not. The already great respect and esteem I had for you, your art, and your expression just doubled with this video. Thank you so much for posting this!
I have enjoyed so many of your videos. This is my favorite by far. Your authenticity is commendable and wish you enormous success in the future.
This video is incredible. Maximum respect for speaking up about this stuff.
Your perspective is amazing absolutely needed.
Thank you for speaking honesty and truthfully.
I do the same in the masterclasses I do, I let young musicians know that the institution needs you more than you need them.
Get what you need from the right education and you will always progress
Awesome insight !!!
I have just recently discovered your channel and I am in awe at the level of insight you posses regarding music. This video in particular is a master class in what music making should be about-life affirming creative expression. I have been a victim of gate keeping in academia and its soul destroying arbitrary judgements about talent. Thank you for making your experience and knowledge available for all of us.
Just a small token of my appreciation for this wonderful and inspiring video as well as a few others of yours I have enjoyed watching. Keep on keeping on 😊
Anne-Katrin, first of all what a great video. Thanks for sharing your story and point of view on this. I did the exact same thing. I applied at a couple of different music schools for composition in Germany as well. I also got rejected at all of them while I met a lot of eye-rolling professors when I told them, that I want to write music for film. It was devastating and after waiting a year and contemplating and figuring things out, I applied at a conservatory in the Netherlands and got admitted.
I just discovered you through the AWFC newsletter (hello fellow female film composer!). I love your thoughts and couldn't agree with you more. I have also struggled so much in my career with the classical world as well. Your video felt so validating. ❤️ Thank you!
This video deserves many more views and many more thumbs up! And not only from people interested in music, also in other fields. This is an important discussion in general!
I agree and resonate. In a way i'm happy that I studied a lot by myself and from private tutoring rather than going to a music school. It made me understand things independently, albeit slower, but on a much deeper and personal level.
Thank you for your channel, information and liberating views.
Liebe Anne-Kathrin, vielen vielen Dank für deine Videos, deine Meinung und deine Expertise. Ich kann so gut nachfühlen, was Du in diesem Video sagst. Ich habe selbst mit 20 zur Musik gefunden und bin auf dem Weg Medien Komposition zu studieren, entweder an einer Uni oder eben auf eigenem Wege, wenn es nicht anders gehen sollte. Danke für all dein großzügiges Wissen - du bist auf diese Art eine Bereicherung und tolle Begleitung. Roman aus Marburg in Hessen :)
Anne-Katrin, thank you for sharing your thoughts and your knowledge! Education should be free everywhere if we want the world a better place. Thank you again and keep the good work up! And succes with your career! Regards, Rob
My hero. Thanks for this video.
Absolutely agree with 100% you said.
I’m in my fifties and I recently learned cinematography, film editing and now I will start learning music scoring and composition. Im watching all your videos. Thanks for sharing and music lessons. You are very much appreciated by many.
Your channel is the best. Thanks so much for sharing your time, talent, and wisdom. God Bless.
As someone who got a degree in a different field and didn’t really delve into music composition until later in life I find channels like yours invaluable. With a family and a career going back to college right now isn’t an option and I can read the same textbooks that you read in college but getting a practical perspective isn’t easy to come by. Even teachers in colleges might have great academic knowledge but may have never worked as a professional composer so channels like this are a great educational resource even for those getting a degree in music.
I do indeed find that except for a handful of colleges, most of the teachers have either very little experience actually working in the field or their experience is very outdated. Some colleges bypass this problem by inviting a lot of guest lecturers but it doesn't really make up for the lack of practical knowledge in the day to day teaching. While school taught me a lot of useful things, I was quite shocked how little hands on knowledge I had when I started my first job.
Amazing video. I cannot agree more with you 👏
Thank you for sharing. This is helpful and thoughtful. I am going to send a link to this video to a friend that is a composer that does not do well in academia. I recently read "Child Composers in the Old Conservatories: How Orphans Became Elite Musicians" and found out how conservatories of music were founded. It was a sort of musical hunger games. I am glad you overcame your own version of the music hunger games and became a successful composer. You have the attitude of "The Beatles" and are open to listening and absorbing so many genres into your style. Again, thank you for the encouragement.
I love your attitude. Much respect...
One of your best! :-)
I truly wish I had a mentor like you growing up. You and many of my favorite music education encouragers in youtube.
wow. thank you for this amazing video. so long that I wait for a professional to have a speech like you. thank you. I agree 100% with your whole video. it feels good.
It was very much triggered by a letter I read recently. It was an open letter by Danny Elfman, from many years ago, to a music professor who had bashed his music because the professor perceived Elfman to be uneducated and unskilled. I believe Hans Zimmer also recently spoke out about this issue on Facebook in a thread where music critics were bashing very specific film composers who weren't writing the old-fashioned way. It's a bit of an uphill battle...
@@AnneKathrinDernComposer well, if you watch the documentary called ENNIO released few months ago by Tornatore, you'll find that Morricone were criticized too and a lot by those kind of "classical people". I thinks that Morricone had a lot of struggle with this because that ambient haven't recognize him as a real composer, even his friend/professor... and he was one of the most great composers ever, with classical studies and so on. He was maybe the first to experiment with sounds and techniques that today are so trending. Watch it if you haven't yet, really interesting and inspirational
I’ve never said “F@$% YEA” so many times whilst watching a CZcams video. Thank you for what you’re doing Anne, love everything about it, God speed!
I admire you! Continue to bring hope and light to the fallen :) Wish you easily succeed in every endeavor!
I was great at school and could play guitar well, but I was self taught. Music classes were the hardest classes in college and had a pretty brutal environment. I still play music, study theory, and write songs, but it was clear that the classroom was not right for me and many others. Glad you found a home at UCLA and a career in music. You are such a fighter. Really enjoying your videos.
So young and so wise. Thank you for this video. I will be forever grateful and your fan. God Bless.
Ha, young... my back is starting to tell a different story...
Great commentary! First time viewer. I'm very much an amateur composer and loved your analysis. Well done. I'll be coming back!
Great points! Thank you, Anne-Kathrin. I’ve experienced this negativity too many times in academia… Thanks for your inspirational video.
Ich liebe deine Intros. Die allein sind den Klick schon wert.
(You're probably going to get quite a number of comment notifications from me; I've just discovered your channel and I'm so thrilled to have found a composer who is in my age group that I can really relate with -- so I'm basically going through and watching so many of your videos while I work). Truly appreciated this video and discussions. I have been composing orchestral music for about 15 years, but it's almost entirely been done "by ear" because I've never had the money for music education, despite trying multiple times over the years. I also have ADHD so I often have a difficult time retaining information, so this makes school settings more difficult for me, so there's been a legitimate question mark over whether or not an education would've even been good for me or if it would basically just shatter my poor fragile brain and body. I don't really know how to read or write music (though I've been very slowly trying to learn over the last two years). I did start getting REALLY interested in Music Theory during the pandemic and it quickly became a favorite topic. And similarly to you, it was interesting finding that I had already been using a lot of Music Theory "techniques" without even realizing it, I just hadn't known what to call them. Instead I was just composing and drawing from years of listening to composers like Jerry Goldsmith and John Williams, and implementing stuff I had heard them do.
But to your point(s) on the problem of elitism, I have had a lot of trouble getting music gigs over the years because of my lack of education credentials. And this isn't just an issue in Music, but it's really part of a systemic issue especially in America where you have so many jobs that don't even want to see your application unless it has college credentials attached to it, even if the job in question doesn't even require skills learned from college. But yeah, unfortunately I've lost a number of gigs over the years because the client did some deeper digging on my background/portfolio and didn't find any kind of music education credentials. I have no idea how widespread this issue is in the music community, I'm hoping it's not THAT big of a an issue, generally, for composers like me. But in my little slice of the universe it's definitely been an issue.
But I just carry on and do my thing and keep composing my own music, because ultimately I feel my "portfolio" should just speak for itself to any interested parties. But even aside from that, I just feel so much passion for music that not even the lack of an actual music career can keep me from just composing in my own time as a hobby.
Thank you so much for your videos, and your very down-to-earth approach to the whole thing, instead of taking a more "ivory tower" approach. It truly means a lot, and I know not just to me.
Loved this video. I've run into gate keepers in all subject matters my entire life and every time I would do my best to get around them through reading and experimenting in all of my endeavors.
Anne spitting fire today! And thank you; we need established players such as yourself to be speaking up on this! Side note, I really like your makeup today, it looks fantastic!
Jumping on the jazz talk - we are playing those chords without the roots to give the bass players chance to transform the changes - all the fun in a jazz combo starts from the "rootless voicings". Great channel BTW!
Your channel us honestly incredibly underrated. You deserve way more subscribers. I follow some other composing channels and they don't talk about stuff this and it's really important.
One of your best, Anne!! Now we gotta pick apart all the other gatekeepers in the industry! 🙌
I love your attitude ❤ Respect !
Wow! Your major poins are so true in almost any of so called academic art education. Not just music. Coming from field of architecture this sounds almost too familiar. Small group of elitists defines what's good and what's not. When at university in our first year, we were kind of separated in two groups: those who are bad and those who had "talent". The judgement was not done regarding Your skills. It was done looking at Your personal style: do You look like an architect? and speak like an architect? It kind of opened my eyes about academic art education. I have witnessed it too many times, if You serve the elitist continuum and fit in that or if You have connections, You can publish anything that has difficult words and complicated sentences as an academic paper even if there's no sense in it and no one can understand your thinking. The ones who speak clearly and can make the common understand their point are considered heretic and dangerous by the elite. Sometimes it has even qualities of a religious cult. I think there's not one sacred truth in what's art, music or architecture. There are many of truths in all of those. There are many ways of looking at things or hearing things. This is why I don't want to teach at academic level.
All my thoughts are exactly like yours. We have to teach society that! Keep going :)
Well said!!
Your channel is awesome, thank you. Though I'm not so much into orchestrations etc, but I guess I will jump more into that so I have a reason to listen to you 🙂.
This lady is spitting pure facts! Thanks for speaking out for the majority of us! 👏
excellent content!
@Anne-Kathrin Dern I totally love your honesty and your courage in speaking without shame or fear of political correctness about your experiences and the truth about these elitist issues, as well as prejudices regarding genres or types of music.
I admire you a lot and I love the content of your channel, thank you.
Greetings from Mexico
Thank you for sharing your thoughts an knowledge with the world - This is highly appreciated, at least by me! As music goes, I am but a self-taught amateur, but I still strive to learn as much as I can, even as I am approaching my sixties... 'Right' music is what feels right to you, what you feel tells a story or paints a landscape or evokes a particular feeling. The elitism actually made me reconsider and back off when I contemplated joining the music industry in one way or another back in my early days. Instead I got a degree in electronics and today I work as a patent attorney, but I have never given up music - I play, and listen, and learn as much as I can whenever I have the time to do so.
Thank you for that. Being left aside because you don't have proper education I can relate to. It's not only in academia; I find this attitude in so many music circles, I am sometimes glad not to "belong". Keep up the videos: I discovered your channel recently, I could (yep, should) comment and say thanks on any of them.
Thanks for posting this. You are so correct on the student loan issue. It is a travesty and should be done away with. There are so many ways to get education now. Your channel is among those I would recommend to anyone looking to further their training.
I continue to be shocked how some schools can charge an annual middle class income per year and get away with it, knowing fully well the average income after graduation is usually around the poverty line. It should be illegal, especially without an explicit disclaimer for every applicant.
Wijze woorden weer Anne, Zo nuchter , ( like the coloring of your hair ) Chopin in the background again , love it !
Excellent video. Success isn’t only dependent on education and opportunity. It’s often more dependent on drive, courage, focus, ambition. You must clearly have those qualities in abundance to follow the path you did. Most people don’t have the guts to leave their home country and far fewer have the determination to learn another language just to attend a specific school. Wow!
You have truly forged your own path…bravo!!!
Incredible Anne-Kathrin! Thank you so much for truth-telling!
Thanks for an excellent talk! It's not just academicians who look down on those without the "proper" music education. I see so many advertisements for film scoring jobs, that require--among other things--a college degree in music composition.
Can you go back in time and show this video to my younger self genuinely worrying over whether I would be taken seriously due to where I went to school and who I studied with 🤣 again love your perspective and direct communication. Miss ya friend
Thanks Ann. I agree with you.
This is an extraordinarily important video, and I hope that it reaches everyone in the business. It hit close to home here. At 18 I washed out of Oberlin stuttering and confused many moons ago, and that guy wants to thank you. :)