Introduction to spray arc part 2: Destructive testing
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- čas přidán 2. 07. 2024
- In this followup episode we tackle doing some destructive tests on 1/4in and 3/8 steel, and directly compare short circuit to spray arc. The previous video can be found here: • Introduction to spray ...
0:00:00 Intro
0:03:57 Lets weld
0:07:29 Cut and etch
0:12:22 Recap and break tests
0:17:27 Upclose results
0:23:07 Conclusion
Another great video young man, very informative indeed. Having used "spray arc" myself on the odd occassion, one thing I did notice was the lack of spatter. Beautiful smooth weld and no clean up after at all.
The lack of spatter and high metal deposition (due to high wire feed and no loss of filler like short circuit mig) makes it super fast. Honestly the welds it put down (along with dual shield) are what I like to see. Flat, smooth, and strong.
I love using spray arc. I’ve had 3 machines now capable of this process and it never ceases to amaze me. What I really like is the lack of splatter. I used to have 2 gases, 1 for short circuit, 1 for spray. I’m using only 1 as a compromise and that’s 80/20 with good results in both processes. Great video.
It’s a great process like you said. I like the way the welds look, and the performance. It really puts wire in another league over stick in many cases. I wish more people had the welders to do it, and the gas mixture. Granted its benefits on something like a car is limited, for anyone who fixes heavier stuff it gets the job done with excellent performance.
Excellent information and video Greg! Thanks!
Excellent Greg, looking forward to the next one!
That explains a lot. I wish my machine had the power to spray arc, but then, all it takes is money right. I gotta get serious and win that lotto. That would probably solve all my problems. It wouldn’t change me… ya right. Anyway, great info, thanks Greg.
Spray definitely gives wire the capability I wish it had to begin with. However if you’re welding 1/4in and under the short circuit process is very strong and will easily match 1/8th 7018 for strength (provided you pull and use the proper settings). Wire welding is cheap and easy to learn at the start, but to be able to weld any material in any position it’s the most expensive out of any process. Multiple gas cylinders, multiple wire spools, expensive high amp welder, etc.
You keep putting out some of the best content for folks like me following along at home! I was stoked to hear you're going to be covering beveling. Are you going to show multipass as well? I've been doing a ton of welding with a little 140A machine and I'm trying to figure out what I need to do with my 210 to get setup for thicker materials (gas, prep, wire type, etc.)
Thanks for the kind words. I will be doing a video on beveling and multi pass welds. Beveling doesn’t help as much as you might think, it completely dependent on the process and how thick of material. I will cover enough in the video to help you out I am sure. I will also be doing a video where I demonstrate how to repair 1/2inch + thick steel on broken equipment. I will demonstrate multiple ways to do it, Including ways that won’t work and I will show why they won’t work. 😃
Thank u Greg for th wealth of knowledge u share with us ure Truly are a Blessing to all of us can’t wait till u can compare dual-shield flux core 🆚 Spray transfer🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽thank u always an God Bless
very helpful info. thanks. also, very helpful to give your actual settings (12:00).
Settings are very welder specific. Considering that a number of welders don’t gave accurate settings, it’s not usually helpful to give these from a specific model
@@melgross good point. still a helpful point of reference
“Start with these settings, then adjust to suit?”
Great explantion on spray arc. Just by coinsidence I was doing spray pulse today on 1/4 plate. Doing some test beads for a repair
on a box scaper coming up. I set it high like 665 fps 27 volts. But using 030 wire. Man did that hum along great for 20 min then blew my shop breaker. Had to wait 30 min for it to cool down before I could run again. Never hit the duty cycle, breaker blew before that.
I found I did not need that much juice. I will give it a go again and back off to 550 fps and 26 volts and see how it goes with pulse.
Then I will try no pulse . Waiting for the stick vs spray ,, I guess you don't have pulse on the 285 esab?
The esab 285 doesn’t have pulse unfortunately. I am not sure what welder you have but my guess is it probably doesn’t have much in the way of power factor correction (most bigger welders don’t). When you pulse it probably has more “reactive” power output (poorer power factor) which loads up the input line. Basically the machine isn’t working that hard but your breaker is taking a beating lol.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg The power factor is fine I found out that I only have a 30 amp 240 volt on that plug in my shop. I was using my HTP 220 its max amp draw is 32 amps. I guess hit 30 amps for too long and that tripped the breaker. Live and learn.
Quality content.
Thanks for making the video. This really shows the difference in how these two processes perform. I don't have the machine to do spray arc so for me it's either stick, mig or flux core. My first thought on using mig for welding thicker plate is to bevel the plate to get complete root fusion, so I'm looking forward to your testing on that method. I've only tested one coupon after running 3G on 1/2" plate, 0.035" wire, 1/8" gap, 1/8" landing, which didn't break when using a bend test machine. However, my first choice would be; root pass 6010 and fill 7018 on thicker plate. How about bending one welded that way on your press if you get a chance.
So without ruining the video on bevels, there is a ton going on with them. The angle of the bevel and if you have a gap between plates or not will drastically affect the performance. In some cases you can produce a weaker weld by beveling plates (in a fillet weld).
As far as a 6010 root 7018 cover, I did a test on that here: czcams.com/video/WJ1hgfscVe8/video.htmlsi=M9PuWTQjPr3M3pEA . It will produce an overall stronger single sided fillet weld than just 7018, and way stronger than a 3pass 6010 weld. With that said you shouldn’t use it on higher strength steel due to the 6010s deposition of hydrogen into the steel. So using it on tractor parts or heavy equipment should be avoided.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg Thanks for taking the time to answer. Some of the things I've assumed about weld processes have been a little off base. As always, I'm looking forward to your next testing.
I know it won't be better than the spray results. At times if I am using short circuit and feel that I need more pen I slow down the ipm but keep the heat . If that don't work, switch to stick.
Your observations/ideas are correct. With short circuit running a bit slower with slightly less wfs will generally penetrate more than hot settings moving fast. With spray you can move fast and still have penetration. With short circuit you don’t want to move fast, you can outrun your penetration real fast.
It would be interesting to me to see some T-8 flux core welding.
I will try to grab some from work next time I am in the fab shop and see what I can do 👍
I was about to say stick welding with 6010 root and 7018 build is the poor man GMAW spray transfer, but thinking about it..There's no cheap enough stick inverter that could run 6010 without problems. Can't wait for the battle of GMAW spray vs SMAW 6010 root/7018fill. Good luck.
6010 root and 7018 would in many ways perform like a 3 pass spray weld. Spray would have three distinct advantages still, 1) it has higher strength for the root pass (which would benefit if the weld is stressed towards the face on a single sided fillet weld) 2) it doesn’t introduce hydrogen like 6010 does. On higher strength steel 6010 could be a problem, it could cause hydrogen embrittlement. And 3) it would be faster.
From a strength perspective stick is miles cheaper than wire (machine cost) to be able to weld thick steel. The limit of GMAW/wire welding is you need a machine capable of spray to weld steel above about 5/16th and match the strength of stick welds. Beveling plates isn’t a valid solution for wire either. For example: On a fillet weld beveling only one plate won’t give better fusion to the unbeveled plate.
The cheapest welder that runs 6010 decent that I know of is the harbor freight titanium 225, which is around 300$. That welder is capable of welding 1 inch thick+ steel with multi pass. A 300$ mig welder is not capable of that, nor is a 600$ machine. 1000$ machines would be the start, the primeweld 285 for 1k could probably do a decent job. Not that everyone welds thick plate, the difference between stick and short circuit starts around 5/16th thick and up.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg Thanks. And have a good week !
Hey Greg, I enjoyed this one & as (almost) always I learned some things I did not know. I have been binging all of your videos from back when you started the channel - all good stuff. I couldn't find a place to send this privately to you so I guess I will post it here...: I have been looking into Carbon Arc Gouging and am wondering if you have thoughts/experiences/whatever with the processes and equipment for it. For my light duty needs, I am thinking that my Miller Two-Fifty Twin and more than capable air compressor could work with a 1/8 rod for short periods... Thoughts? (possible video request?)
I have been doing a ton of gouging at work lately so I am very well versed in it. I definitely will do a video on it, I should have it done within a week. In the meantime I can tell you that the feasibility of doing it comes down to one thing: a massive amount of power available. The problem becomes that even smaller 5/32 carbons run at 120amps or so. That doesn’t sound like much until you realize that’s at 40-50volts. A carbon rod at 120amps is roughly equal to a 7018 at 220a. To make matters worse many machines simply won’t handle the voltage required. It’s very hard on machines. I personally gouge on a 400+ amp machine on 3 phase power or a 500amp big blue welder. It is possible to run on less machine than that. I will cover all of it in the video 😀
Are you still using a generator for your welder’s power supply? If so, I was wondering if the design of the ESAB welder’s PF correction allows you to achieve the results you are demonstrating, with your welder, or are you using or have access to normal 240v shop power?
Like most folks my machine can’t produce enough power for spray transfer, but I’m wondering about how it compares to 0.035” Dual Shield wire. Based on your previous Dual Shield videos, I’m wondering if your current reference/opinion (is more positive) of using Dual Shield wire has improved based on the brand wire (or larger 0.045 wire size), using a different cover gas like CO2 or perhaps a better welder like the ESAB 235?
Also, what about running a gap with short circuit MIG, does that create a stronger weld than beveling?
I’m really looking forward to more videos along this line, and I’m sorry someone stole your camera and the content you were working on.
Thanks Greg for all that you share with us.
The esab 235 does have PFC and is capable of hitting 220+ amps at 25v on the 9500 watt generator. A welder capable of 25-26v at 200a could run .035 on the low end of spray. The firepower welder I have is incapable of hitting 200a at 25v on my generator due to breaker trips (poor power factor).
It’s also possible to run .030 wire and achieve spray transfer at lower amperage than 200. The key to getting it to work is 24+ volts and c10 or other spray gas. The difference in penetration on the low end of spray is still huge over short circuit.
I had filmed a .045 dual shield video, and it unfortunately was in the camera that was stolen. I will be reshooting it shortly and directly comparing it to .035 dual shield. .045 dual shield and .045 mig wire both have better performance on thicker metal due to being able to carry more amperage at lower voltages. I also will be testing 100% co2 and seeing what the difference is. It does require more voltage than c25 but not enough that is limits welder usage.
Also, at my new job they just bought a miller 215 as a portable welder to run on 120v. I will be using it extensively so if you need any help with settings let me know. It actually welds better than the other welders I use when it comes to 1/8th or thinner material.
I am very interested to hear what you think of the Miller 215. Before I got 240v power in my garage, I was limited to mostly 120v shop power, and had a 7kw generator, but it was too much effort to drag out and setup, so I practiced with 120v shop power on a 20 amp breaker, and I thought the welder was quite capable. In fact I pushed it a few times, and never tripped the breaker or had any issue with the welder.
I understand the newest Miller 215’s have been modified to handle 6010 rods, sadly it is not a firmware change, but rather a hardware change. I can use 6010 as long as it’s not Red Rod, if I really watch and control my arc gap. I would like to try 6010 5P+++ and see how it does with my welder. I’m hoping you will get a chance to try the 5P+ and let me know how it runs for you. Of course that depends on whether or not your welder is the latest version.
Overall, I think the Miller runs Hot when it comes to MIG and Stick. On MIG, it seems to run best on a very short Contact to weld length of less than 3/8”. I would like to know what you think on that.
I am anxious to try MIG spray mode but I’m concerned the MIG gun can’t handle that kind of heat very long/well.
I can tell you the 215 does in fact have an undocumented Hot Start (50% boost for 1/2 second), and according to a miller service tech, it does have a factory preset Dig built in, but he doesn’t know how much but thinks it does seem to be related to the Auto Set feature to vary it by rod selection, otherwise it is fixed in manual mode. In fact, just try shoving a rod in like you were drilling a hole, and it will not extinguish the arc. If you use the TIG setup, beware the foot pedal is not normal. It has a small circuit board and a Hall Effect sensor to regulate power, but if you expose it to a strong magnetic field (like a fixture magnet) or physical shock it like a small drop, it messes up the pedal and causes the welder to see a permeant shorted (closed switch), and it will throw and error code and cease to function with the remote foot pedal. I am currently on my 3rd pedal, which Miller has been kind enough to cover under warranty. Also the TIG pre/post flow function is poorly documented, but it is there.
I do have questions about setups and settings on the 215, and I am really glad you will get a chance to become familiar with it. I practice nearly everyday, and I refer a lot to your content routinely. I love welding and learning, especially from you.
Yup likes me some spray... and pulse spray...cut and etch, hell we hardly even give welding test, just the good old boys club.. and I'm not in it.
Another great video. My question is a little off topic, but how does WFS affect amperage? 400 in/min on your machine is "x" number of amps, my machine only reads amps and not WFS, how would i know how to set my machine to match yours? Is WFS to amps similar on most machines?
If you've covered it before can you point me towards the video?Don't feel obligated to answer here, maybe a topic for another day. Have a good one, thanks man.
So wire is quite an interesting process because you don’t directly control amperage. In effect wire speed is amperage, but far different than say stick. Stick operates as a constant current (or fixed amperage) power supply. The machine limits the amperage the rod can pull. In wire welding there is no regulation on how much amperage can be loaded on the machine. What controls it is how much wire you feed. In short circuit the wire hits the puddle, shorts out, and basically blows up. When the wire shorts the voltage drops and the current skyrockets. The current goes to whatever is needed for the short the clear (wire to blow which causes the current to drop). When you feed a lot of wire you need a ton of current to clear the short.
There are ways to calculate amperage based on settings, and some machines read out estimated amperage. Miller welds calculator (online on their site or the free phone app) will give you an estimated amperage. With wire the amperage is of little concern because you don’t directly control it. I bring it up because when you buy mig welders they are rated in amperage and it’s important to know what the capability is of a welder. The short circuit settings I ran would be pushing it for many home hobby level 180-200 amp class machines. They might not be able to achieve the voltage required to match what I ran.
The issue generally comes down to voltage and not amperage. A great example would be the Hobart 210mvp, which is a great welder. It’s capable of 220 amps, but only at 20v, which is why it can’t spray. At 200amps it could hit 22v, so running the short circuit settings (in this video) on the machine would absolutely max it out, and at a 10% duty cycle.
When short arc welding you do need to worry about running proper settings. If you weld steel thicker than 1/8th and you run too low of wire speed you won’t have enough heat input (and thus poor penetration). Luckily the results of mig are fairly predictable which is why that miller settings calculator is pretty reliable for welding stuff. It still pays to cut and etch though 😀
@@makingmistakeswithgregNice, i think I get it. Welding is so interesting and sometimes Google just spits out the same AI written articles that I'd just rather ask here. Thanks for the time, have a good weekend.
@psilocin9533 you arent kidding. The internet is being consumed by ai-written paid-link garbage.
Is it just my hearing - or is spray-arc a fair bit more “hissy?”
In person it’s pretty quiet and just a hiss. All that crackle caused by the short arc wire shorting/exploding is gone. So are most of the sparks/lost metal deposition too lol.