Controversial New Glitch Destroys Ocarina of Time World Record!
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- čas přidán 9. 02. 2020
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The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time has seen some insane new glitches over the last few weeks. Today we will take a look at them and what they mean for the speedrunning community.
Check out Glitches0and0stuff's explanation of the glitch:
• Reach the Credits from...
If you want to watch some runs of the new strategy you can check out the following streamers:
Lozoots: / lozoots
Narcissa: mixer.com/Narcissa
dannyb21892: / dannyb21892
Savestate: / savestate
Please follow me on the these platforms, it really helps!
Twitter: / karljobstgaming
Twitch: / karljobst
Discord: / discord
Music:
The illusive man - mass effect 2
Mantis - FTL
Lost ship - FTL
Vice city - end theme - Hry
I have no vested interest in how the OoT community decides to run its categories or treat these new strategies. The comments in this video are just observations and analysis. Anyone thinking I’m ‘complaining’ about anything or trying to make a statement couldnt be any more wrong or misguided.
Still, you have a point. I think a fair rule would be to require speedrunning methods to be achievable with any file name. That would cut out a lot of the bullshit memory manipulation cheese.
IMO, memory manipulation is cheating in the same exact way cheat engines are; the only difference is that the values are manually adjusted without tools, but it is doing the same thing.
Glitch speed runs suck
@@FuzedBox well, its a any% category! in any%, as the name says, you can do as little of the game as you want (any of it) as long as you get to the ending! well... as long as the inputs are done by a human on a normal -unmodified console and controller, it should be allowed in the any% category..... but yea , the old route should get its own category, Ganon% , so the fastest way to kill ganon! that would probably remain the most played route!
@@FuzedBox Tell that to the Pokemon speedrunning community
@@raafmaat Memory manipulation should at very least be a separate subset of Any%. I don't understand how people justify allowing this, while keeping Gameshark/AR banned; it's hypocritical.
I love how people warping 93% of the game are upset someone warped 4% further.
Yeah, it seems so insane to me :D
It's like there's not difference between an any% run and a full clear haha
Well yeah but at some point it does become kinda dumb though.
@@Pumbear Skipping the whole game from the first dungeon was already dumb to begin with. People are being hypocrites with the criticism against that new strategy.
Yeah but at least those people beat Ganon. They actually "beat" something. The credit rolls just rolls the credits. They didn't beat anything
“The year is 20XX, the oot speedrun world record current sits at 0.001 seconds achieved by using a controller made of 99% duct tape and warping to the last frame of the end credits the moment the game starts. You may think things couldn’t get any faster.....but some would disagree”
Nobody thought you could beat the game any faster than on the very first frame, but then Poopy McFartbutt came along...with THIS run. *shows a single still image followed by credit roll*
@@monkehm a 0.00000000000000 second run, a truly incredible achievement
@@davidbanan. You may think things couldn’t get any faster.....but some would disagree
"The Year is 9087, Runner, BigDickBigBalls, is casually playing among us on his PS925, hes a retro gamer, you see, his ancestors would play even older games than him when they were years old. Anyway, he was messing around, and got bored, so he loaded this on his PS925 (You see, Nintendo and Sony have partnered now, because they love money, and so, this game was ported to the PS925.) Next thing BigDickBigBalls would do may shock you, he eats half of his SSD. He puts it back into his PS925. After a tasty meal, he decides to play the game, and the second he launches the game, no, the game didnt even load, the game would show the credits screen before the first frame could even show, it was the -917191719th frame."
Quantum controllers. “Beginning and End at the same time”
Link: moves randomly
Ganon: nooooo I am defeated
He beat him by doing the YMCA
LUL
😂😂😂
Ganon kneeling to the king in a cutscene: "i pledge my undying allegiance to you and hyrule. there is no orde-" bam heart attack
Defeating a sandwich, only makes it tastier!!
Neo: So, how did the first person glitch out of the Matrix?
Morpheus: First, he looked at a wall and jumped sideways a few times...
While holding nothing over his head.
@@nicolasguerin4678 and doing freaky shit with his second pair of hands
10:00 “Skipping the ocarina saved a huge amount of time.” Hence ocarina of time.
i see what you did there.
@@chriso1373 Really? I didn't notice.
YOU COME INTO MY HOUSE
LIKE POTTERY
the Ocarina of Timesink
So speedruns went from "cutting corners to not waste time" to
basically having the character preform a devil/credits summoning ritual?
>inb4 speedrunners end up becoming the global elite by applying such techniques to real life
You lads better ingratiate yourself to some speedrunners quick.
@William B I'll stick with my "demonic ritual to summon the end credits" explaination.
Not because yours isn't true, but because mine is cooler.
Well there would have to be a subdivision of speedruns for glitchless, because most speedruns use glitches to beat it, and if you want to count one run that glitches to run faster or kill some boss faster, you have to count these glitches too. I didnt see the previous ocarina world record speedrun, but I wouldnt be surprised he also used some kind of glitch, like the one that clips you inside master sword chamber.
@@randomname4950 It's generally a good idea to ingratiate yourself to speedrunners of real life :P
Many of them reach the end of life before finishing high school, often ending the runs of the others in their LAN server in the process
Yes
basically any speedrunning debate: "what if it was just a separate category?"
Well that's because speedrunning is a game of optimisation. When something new comes around that is technically faster than what was donee before but not really fun for the other people that play the game why would we want to take away from either's fun. Just make a category for people to play the game how they want to and show off their own skills while still having fun doing it.
Considering that these speedruns are in Any%. I would say its already in the correct category.
@@erikasakura7721 The thing that's make me sad is that it's no longer skills or rng: now you put a notch & use debugger tools to set up. So what is the difference between a TAS run and that?
@@iterative3605 Well the difference between a TAS run and this is that this still requires an amount of player input which does mean there will be mistakes or some inputs that are just impossible to actually pull off. I get where you're coming from and personally I dislike this new glitch, I think it's boring to watch and perform both but unfortunately as long as there is player input that allow for errors and you are exploiting something that comes from the game, it's not Tool assisted, you're only using the game itself which doesn't qualify as a tool.
@@erikasakura7721 I know, but putting a notch to pull off this glitch 99.99% of the time, using debugger tool to see if your inputs will payoff, isn't that heart breaking as well as a little too close to a TAS sequence? Idk for sure I couldn't put a limit on what sould and shouldn't be allowed, but I don't feel the "speedrunning experience" when watching that I have the "programmer feeling".
Me who has never speedran a game in my life: now THIS looks like a place for my opinion
Yes😀
Don't gotta make a pizza to know what good pepperoni is
If you yank the zelda cartridge out of the N64 as soon as the game begins, you'll get a black / blank screen the same as you get at the end of the credits. Does this count?
I have no interest in DOING speedrunning, but I love to watch it.
god this is the type of content i love
Wait what, Seth you watch this too?
The bald guy himself!
Dope
Aye, it’s the bald guy.
Wudahek meme lord hath appeared amongst the nerdz
"The world record was 16:58"
Looks at video length.
Omg
IT'S A CONSPIRACY!
big bruh
i wonder if he did it on purpose
That competitive edge that makes Karl's speedruns so awesome can't just be turned off lol
As a software engineer, these kinds of runs are both fascinating and terrifying. Fascinating because people are reverse engineering the code of the game with very limited insight into the code, so it's an amazing feat of software analysis. Even knowing the code well still presents the problem of figuring out how to exploit it. Even if you know that the game loads warp IDs from a certain memory location, you have to notice that you can overwrite that memory in some way. Beyond that, you have to figure out a way to do so with the limited input of the controller.
It's terrifying because every one of these glitches in a game would be a critical security vulnerability in any other piece of software. If clicking some random spots on a web page and scrolling at a certain speed lets you hack into the server, then you've got some serious problems. This kind of speed run shows how easy it is for code to be exploited by motivated attackers.
nah imagine someone going onto twitter or smth looking at 3 posts from 5 days ago, liking the most recent 17 posts, scrolling until the day march the 30th then clicking middle mouse 3 times and all of a sudden there goes twitter, its now theirs.
How? Just how? How the hell did ANYBODY find this?
When you know how to code and have tools telling you what codes occur during certain inputs, you can find a way
There basically replicating the code for the game to be at that moment in game
People have tools to see what the game is tracking when you do actions so knowing how the console track all this lead to many exploids and glitches to be discovered
They look into the code, this stuff isnt discovered by accident. People spend hundreds of hours digging in code.
That's the beauty in TAS. Not so much about the few minutes you get some actual gameplay, but the knowledge and expertise behind finding all these things and endlessly optimise it.
TORJE IS FROM NORWAY! How the hell did I botch that. Sorry Torje :(
Oh no
at least you were in the right part of the world, lol...
Karl Jobst Oh
The absolutely worst thing you could ever call a Norwegian
Ommg yes perfect timing you absolute legend thanks!!!!
the credits warp legit sounds like those old rumors to unlock stuff like luigi in mario 64
true lol
L is real
@@djkk666 keep the dream alive
Get 119 stars, beat bowser 3 times, punch Yoshi 16 times, run in a circle around the fountain 64 times...glad I never wasted time on those, I feel bad for those who did 😳
@@ChrisPoindexter98 some just succeded using ace at the time. You just needed a prop to set the perfect stick position
This can be accurately called 0% completion speedrun
I feel like it SHOULD be. A new category called that should be made
No, a 0% speedrun would be starting from the menu screen
@@krymsun3134 No 0% would be not even putting the cartridge in and magically winning
Doesn't it mean any %?
I'd say it would be a 1% speedrun
Lol. Might have to start up a "Cardboard Taped to Controller" category.
definitely a run killer lol
that would be a run killer lol
It is my pleasure to present to the speedrunning community; Ocarina of Time: "Ganonless"
Dunno if this is comment is a joke or not. But Ganonless was already a category back when wrong warping first was discovered.
In the early days of wrong warping people used Farore's wind and the blue warp in Dodongo's cavern to warp straight into the credits, hence the name Ganonless. These runs took about 45 - 50 minutes.
Then, of course, the Ganondoor setup was found which decimated the old routes. And people were pleased as this meant Ganon would be fought in any% again.
@Carl Glennerster haha the thought that you thought such a comment would scave me is amusing.
@@PontusLarsson1 It was a joke ._.
@@prestige8477 ok, sorry my friend! 🙂
@Carl Glennerster don't be such a dick, Carl.
It's gonna get to the point where they find a way to play the end credits from the title screen
Tales of Vesperia has the credits menu accessible from the title screen. I wonder how fast those speedruns are...
@Robin Hogan They already skip 90% of the game, what the big deal if they skip 10% more?
czcams.com/video/C2WdkMH9B54/video.html
@@TheAngelOfBalls lol
I mean it’s the point of a any% run literally just get to the end. But to me the only way to beat a game is a 100% run
The game starts. The game ends. That's a run. Having a different category solves the issue. It's like 0,1,16,70,120 star Mario 64.
Though you mention pre-run setup.. is the setup identical for every run? Then the assumption when the run starts that the game is in a specific state. Again - just make that a new category.
If there's a group of people who want to beat the game (however you want to define "beat") a specific way and it's definitively different than whatever established way, then give them a category to do that.
I totally agree with you.Different categories different rulesets different competitions and everyone is happy.
P N everyone except for the people wanting it in the main category of any%, unfortunately
@@Enrix I feel the name is pretty desciptive, any%, no limits. Main category on leaderboards is either 100% or any% glitchless anyway
It's more like the Pokemon 0'00" hall of fame speedrun
It's less like stars in Mario 64, and more like the credits warp in Mario World.
imagine just chillin and seeing link doing these fucking random movements and disappearing to the credits
"Don't stare at the weird kid, don't stare at the weird kid, just keep trying to pick up the rock til he goes away..."
@@agwellin
“Go play with the neighbor’s kid”
The neighbor’s kid:
I remember years ago, I saw an ocarina of Time run that was 40 minutes. I thought that was revolutionary
It was! Just not the end of the story lol.
Brooooooo. I remember that! I thought the same thing you did. How far we've come
It was revolutionary. And so was this. And so is the next discovery!
I remember as a kid thinking I was hot shit back walking or using the jump slash hit box to get on a couple ledges. Then I saw Narcissa and Runnerguy just obliterate the game, first any% then 100%, on GDQ a few years ago and my jaw was dropped the entire time. The amount of things people have discovered is nuts. I pulled off Door of Time skip for the first time a few months ago I can't believe people can do it blindfolded
I remember seeing ocarina of time decades ago in a toys r us. I thought that was revolutionary. Now my back hurts and I hate it when I see kids riding their longboards on the sidewalk.
Lol, that set-up is literally "How to unlock luigi in super mario 64" type of movement
2401 L is Real
@@DustyMusician (NOT RICKROLL)
@@torchmusic27 Que bloody Mary
Karl Jobst is such an outstanding narrator he could make paint drying sound interesting.
He’s kinda like Morgan freeman
@@shromp2034 no I would say that he's above average but nowhere near Morgan Freeman
I personally think that a run that needs a preparation like this, getting the number value, manipulating the controller, is a separate category. I am glad the community decided this as well.
So the Dot is ok for goldeneye but not this?
I don't think this is controversial at all. If people are literally allowed to save time by buying a whole new console (the iQue) and their runs are accepted alongside people running with regular Wiis and/or Gamecubes, I don't think this should be any different. Either way, both are considered real-life preparation one way or another.
TAS category: exists*
The better question is “how does this affect the Zelda timeline?”
This new run is how Breath of the Wild exists.
HAHAHAHAHAHA THANK YOU
This is just part of the victorious Ganon timeline
This is just basketball
Doesn't.
Link saw Mario and was like this is stupid! I'm doing this for ME, not sum b*tch! Screw Ganon!! Yeah!
I would like to point out that the Fire Temple wrong warp (also directly into the credits) is still valid and has been the whole time.
perspective, thank you
That was definitely controversial at the time though. I'm not sure if everyone decided it was ok or if it just got replaced with faster methods so everyone stopped caring
@@sysop073 I wasn't able to determine if it was controversial at the time, but it seems pretty well accepted now.
IMO any wrongwarp is nonsense. At that point you aren't playing OOT, you're trying to force a glitch.
@@robdillenger4763 Have you ever watched an OoT speedrun? They tend to be more glitch than game at this point. Even the glitchless categories look pretty glitchy, though that's more because what is and what is not a glitch is kind of hard to pin down... It actually got so bad that they made an extra offshoot of the glitchless category that bans more of the on-the-fence stuff.
Note that I'm not complaining about any of this, I like these speedruns, but drawing the lines at wrong warps seems weird.
Seems like this falls under modifying controllers? I remember in James Bonds 007 runs people used to have all sorts of rubber bands on their controllers. I don't recall how it was resolved.
They allow it
I like to think that this is link performing an intricate ancient ritual to banish all evil from Hyrule.
I'm no speed runner, but as an outsider, the use of a prop to set the perfect position he needs to get the joystick is no diferent than using a pen to Mark the middle of the aim on Golden Eye...
I don't think that's even remotely close to the issue people have with this route tho.
Also goldeneye speedruns are mostly watching the floor so the aesthetics arguement doesn't hold
It's made much worse in OoT by the fact that nearly every single runner of the game, when playing a version that's not on N64, uses a custom controller pass-through called an ESS adapter to modify the dead-zone to make some tricks easier to do... It's almost mandatory if you want to have any success speedrunning the game. Why should that extra piece of hardware be allowed but a fucking notch in the controller not be? Also, like the pen mark you mentioned, there is basically no way to enforce the rule without doing something as absurd as requiring a hand-cam.
@@hoodedman6579 Yeah, the notch doesn't change the controller so it's like taping two controllers together, which is not a stand-alone category in GoldenEye. Having said that, I really don't see the fun in playing (or watching) a game that's one big glitch manipulation
yes; where ends the line between adding a rubberband to the controller and having an industrial robot move the stick according to a fixed program; altough one could argue that as long as no movement is involved it is fair game...
I think it's as simple as having a "Kill Ganon Any%" and a "No Restrictions Any%" Category. Both require a TON of skill and people will run both regardless
this was already a distinction when ganonless was made
Ganon% was the exact term I was thinking of when I was watching this
They’re probably already on it. The SR community has a ton of categories for just about every game.
If you're using glitches to skip strait from the beginning of the game to the end, are you really even beating it though? I'd have to say no.
Still, gotta give the OOT community credit, showing how broken it is, even 2 decades after it's release.
@@TheZombiesAreComing cringe
OOT speedrunning is really fascinating to me. I remember watching Narcissa Wright's run at AGDQ all the way back in 2013, where the world record was around 22 minutes. At the time she said something along the lines "now we once again think we've finally solved OOT, but you never know what might get discovered in the future". And ho boy, the stuff that has been discovered since then. It truly seems you can never be "done" with the Any% category of this game. Just when you think the game can't get any more broken, yet another crazy trick or exploit is discovered to completely blow the old strats out of the water. Who the hell knows how low the world record in this game will go before it truly can't be taken any lower.
Question: If there is a "credits" option on the main menu, does hitting that button constitute a speedrun?
i feel like you gotta at least imput a move, so your actually playing
omar mohamud Why? If credits rolling count as completion, and you still have to input controls for them to roll, why is just choosing them from the menu NOT completing the game; but loading into the game, not playing anything that would be considered to constitute the story, and then making them roll would?
It does now. Just start the game. The moment you have control over your character, quit the game. Select option for subtitles in home screen. Now you hold a world record.
Selecting credits would never be considered beating the game. Never seen any game that allows that.
That is just seeing the credits roll though, not actually beating the game. To me, it is a speedrun if there is a journey to the credits/end, no matter how short or broken it may be.
Glitching through the game right to the end is a run. Hitting a button to see the text scroll is not.
I love it when Arbitrary Code Execution happens, it always looks like some elaborate schoolyard rumor telling you to do a hundred totally unrelated tasks and then magic! A weird thing happens!
@Toki ACE still cant make things which arent in the game happen. only trigger parts of the game in the wrong situation
@@mattisandersson9661 Toki is talking about the elaborate schoolyard rumors Neo Qwerty mentioned.
@@mattisandersson9661 Not true considering you can program flappy bird into super mario world
@@spikosz if you program it you add it from outside of the game. ACE is still with in the game
@@mattisandersson9661 Yeah, tell me more. czcams.com/video/JxgEXDnXD6M/video.html
If I tried telling people about any of these speedrun techniques in the 90s they would assume I'm just making things up and that the next thing I'll say is that I have an uncle that works at Nintendo
Sometimes I wish I could have a conversation with my 15 year old self. His mind would be blown by all this gaming stuff.
@Robin Hogan And L was actually real 24 years and 01 month after SM64's release. What do you know?
14:30 hold up, I have a problem with this. Obviously credit-warping is ACE, but shouldn't teleporting straight to Ganon be ACE as well?
This video is outdated but there's a couple of points:
1- no, ACE (Arbitrary Code Execution) is defined to mean "writing your own game code". The vast majority of glitches are done using the game's own code, just tricking the game into applying the code wrongly. You can even achieve a credits warp that's _almost_ as fast as the one used in Any% in the Gamecube version, with the record for that currently standing at 8:17 and getting lowered week by week (the current any% record is 7:34 by DannyB) using SRM but without writing your own code.
2- There's a ton of implementations of SRM that are extremely gamebreaking but don't qualify as ACE. This ended up creating a category split. The category previously known as "No ACE" is now called "Defeat Ganon", and it's gotten split up into "SRM" and "No SRM". Other categories such as 100%, No Wrong Warp, and All Dungeons have also gotten similarly split up. We've finally settled on all the main leaderboard rules, and are now figuring out what the rules for the different category extensions should be.
No. What they do for ACE is intentionally load in data (a bunch of 1s and 0s), then trick the game into reading it as a program.
Wrong warping is editing data (specifically, the variable number for what room a warp sends you to), while ACE is writing new code. You should watch the AGDQ where they first demonstrated it. They used a TAS to write a new item into the game (of course they gave themselves 69 doggos).
The difference seems merely semantic on the surface.
OK, there are road signs that tell you which streets are which. But they don't change the buildings on the streets. Wrong Warp is like if someone changed the signs, so that you wind up in a place you didn't intend.
ACE is like if someone swapped out your car for a giant bulldozer.
who tf actually spent all this time trying to learn this, like did they just wake up and say hey what if I
play the Japanese version of the game put in a specific set of kanji then aim at a house crawl through a hole break a sign pick up a rock aim at a another house with my sling shot and then plugging in my second controller into the third port and press a specific button to skip to the end of the game
It involves debugging the game to see its bugs when performing specific things.
If you know Warhammer 40k then just think of the people who do this as Tech Priests of the Adeptus Mechanicus.
Only that they fiddle with ancient gaming tech rather than undead tech zombies... for now atleast...
These things happening are always part luck, part theorycrafting and part digging through code, at least as far as I've seen microdocumentaries about it. The science of breaking games, you might call it...
This is likely reverse engineered
@@pedroscoponi4905 Do you have the names of the microdocumentaries you've seen? I'm quite interested in how these glitches are found.
Old record 16:58
This video 16:58
😮
ILLUMINATI
First thing I noticed too!!
its 16:57 for me
Half-Life 3 confirmed (even if this has absolutely nothing to do with it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ )
Hmmm
I think adding more categories is almost always the way to go, it might seem silly to have a game with a million categories, but if we banned every little thing people found for the sake of fun, we'd all just be playing the game as intended and glitchless. I think run diversity is a wonderful thing, as there are a lot of fun glitches and techniques that can be exclusive to many categories.
Yeah, agreed.
Even with a million categories its still hard to break a world record. I'm still going for the non z targeting record.
I have two major problems with the decision. 1. The full credits are not displayed and 2. This requires pregame setup similar to New Game+. So IMO these new runs should not be in the standard Any% and if they are the time should start from the time you start making the new "controller notch"
@@McLovinMods Therefore, they are not in the same category. I think this sorta solves that issue because they aren't being compared.
Love when an activity becomes soo complex we can't even decide what the end of it all is
I really don't see the problem, so they skipped the boss and even some credits, good for them? Definitely should count under Any%. I get it's not as interesting but interesting isn't required for an Any% speed run.
Using multiple controllers made me raise an eyebrow. I don't think I've seen that in other speed runs.
@@Zaidon7 Zelda 1 has a strat involving the second controller to save and go back to the main menu, essentially a warp.
I've seen runs where this save+quit wasn't allowed.
it is in Pokemon.
they are not playing the game but altering the console memory. tecnically this is not cheating... it is Hacking
@@marsovac They're doing it purely in-game, it's fine, they're not physically altering the consoles memory they're just exploiting mechanics. This is the beast that is any%, any% means ANY%. Causing memory overflows and other manipulating of game memory is perfectly fine, people are only upset this time because it lets them skip so much and it's kinda boring but you know what? That's what other speedrun categories are for, any% is for any%.
If you’re allowing glitches, any glitch should be allowed; as long as the “end of the game” is initiated, like end credits, that should signify completion
Agreed. It's a ANY% run. Anyway to get to the end should be allowed.
Not sure if I’m just being too picky because I’ve not seen anyone else mention this as a problem but I don’t think this should count because it doesn’t initiate the credits, it skips to halfway through them. If it skipped to the start of the credits I’d be fine with it but skipping to some random point in the credits seems a bit too loose of a definition for me
@@RJP0409 that should be chorally decided by the community. OoT 3D has a similar credit warp, which puts the game halfway through the credits; however it has been known and accepted for several years. Anyway, as they say, any% allows every technique (besides cheating, obv)
The end is when you cant play anymore.
Does ending a game count? Idk but if so its fine. If a glitch allowed you to turn the machine off does that count? Same deal.
If skipping any tasks is ok that means you can skip the last task. Thats logical.
If you have to see the end credits and trigger the end sequence this shouldn’t count. You don’t get the whole ending.
If a glitch allowed you to just see a single frozen image of some random part of the ending before the game restarted or stopped does that count? Idk but if it
doesn’t then this doesn’t. The rule of all or part thereof would have been established.
For my opinion it counts fine as any%
/ MasteRem then the question become whether or not the use of debug menu and a custom notch are considered cheating.
I still don’t know how the hell people figure this stuff out
They look at the game’s code using emulators and other programs. You find the parts of code you want to manipulate to trigger end credits for example, and then you figure out how you can make actions within the game to manipulate those parts of code. A lot of these tricks seem to be based around the fact you can hold unloaded objects. When an object is loaded its data will be in the memory and doing the normal things it’s supposed to do to the object if you for example hold it. But if you manage to hold it while it’s unloaded, then its data can be overwritten by something else’s data and now you’re suddenly holding a piece of game code completely unrelated to the object you were supposed to be holding. This can create whacky effects as you’d expect.
Its called no life
Tool Assisted Speedrun tools (TAS) will help discover glitches in the games code. There’s things the TAS will be able to do that a human wouldn’t be able to compute and execute, but certain things can. At least in my uneducated assumption over time watching and learning speed runs on CZcams.
@@dballls The advantage of using a TAS is that you can have it repeatedly try things to get a desired result, that can be checked by monitoring the program in an emulator. If you have a slightly wrong value that you want to modify, you can have a base run (e.g. that a human has performed and the input information recorded for a TAS to play back) that is used as the starting point. -- Think of it like having a chess game with the moves listed and then figuring out how you could have prevented getting checkmated.
If you want to have a value written to a given location, you could do a similar thing but watch for that value to change, at which point you can save the run as a good attempt and use that as a template.
When you have a TAS run that performs the glitch, you can then figure out what is necessary for that glitch to occur and practice performing that for non-TAS runs. This is what people like SethBling did for the Super Mario Bros credit warps, often building on each other's discoveries as was done here for Ocarina of Time.
@@KG66610 >says the OoT community has no life
>watches a video about what the OoT community are doing
Great video essay. I also really appreciate that you place the ad breaks at convenient spots instead of cliffhangers.
This is rather stupid, I mean, there's precedents for this"controversies" and how to handle them, for instance, "pre-game preparations" : such as system resets, random seed analyzers, or in this case, controller orientation visualizers have always been fine in any game, such a pokemon, or zelda 2, as what the runner is doing is ensuring his chances for success with a given trick or route, on the other hand duck-taping the controller is not fine at all as that falls on the realm of tool assisted speed-runs, it's pretty obvious the extra TOOLS are ASSISTING the player while the gameplay is happening, similar rulings have already happened in games like golden eye and mario kart; So, long story short if the player can use the visualizer and then use his own hands and nothing else to keep that position, he can then use this glitch to submit and official record, anything other than than is either cheating by the player, or the community failing to acknowledge a new route, if they are afraid of it "not being entertaining" how about hand cameras ? that would give the watchers something to watch while the player is performing the trick.
Personally I'm on the side of visualizers are a tool since it's software assistance but it's not a hill I'm prepared to die on and I'd use it if allowed in a game I play. No point in putting yourself at a disadvantage over a battle of ethics over a video game of all things.
Strong agree that duct taping a guide slot onto the thumbstick is incontrovertibly tool assistance as it's a physical modification to the controller and I'd be surprised if it's allowed to be used. Might as well allow Goldeneye players to mod in more RAM so they don't have to look down anymore while we're at it
I mean, the point is probably the lack of adventure and the dramatic conclusion, and not that there isn't anything to watch. I dont think people who want to see videogames will be satisfied by a dude flipping his hands or something like that
The controller notch is basically the same thing as speedrunners putting a dot on their screen for the crosshair in 007, and that is allowed
in a few years, OoT speedruns will start at the end screen and be decided by who can turn on their console the fastest. Eventually it will go into negative time.
Lol great comment
I think you're right, the ultimate zelda record has already been finished, it just hasn't started yet.
I’ve sometimes wonder if the conditions the console is in could effect lag. Theoretically it possible. Like temperature and humidity. Dust?
@@rowlandbuck2703 they do for sure, but it's rare for it to be big enough to really be noticeable, usually, people really into speedrunning will take good care of their machines and invest into them.
🤣🤣🤣 wtf this was too funny
Any% is Any% (However you reach the end screen is valid) just add these two: "Any% glitchless" (no glitches allowed) & "Any% Ganon Must Die" (glitches allowed, but ganon must die)
"Any% no ACE" for the old route, Any% for the current route
@@Ganonmustdie2 the problem with naming it "Ganon must die" is that that would still allow ACE to get to Ganon.
IDK about coding or bug hunting but theoretically you could warp to the scene where Ganon is killed and still not fight him.
I can fully understand why people want categories for things like ACE or such skips , like being able to beat pokemon r/b in 0-1secs. There is a point where skill becomes less the barrier, and honestly if a game is brought to its knees with a certain strategy , its community will move on as there is nothing else to do. As long as there is a category that allows all strategies to exist , so that the absolute lowest time is possible and valid, i see no damage in having an any% with ACE and an any% without ACE.
I would be down for a No ACE/No Warp Any % category for all the games coming forward. And you just put an Ace/warp any % category as well. So like that it's more consistent and the game popularity won't be at risk
Creating categories will always be the answer, if someone finds a name that you can put to automatically be in the credit i know people would compete for how can write it faster, and insted of throwing everything through the window, you can divide the runs in the techniques used, that will always solve the problem
dude, when you start taping cardboard templates with specific notches for the joystick to rest in the magic is gone. I'm not a fan of credits warping for any game, but this is ridiculous
You do realize a ton of speed games do stuff like that. There's been taping dots on tvs for perfect aimings. There's the classic tape 2 controllers together and rubber band one in a specific way for golden eye. This is nowhere near the first or last
@@codycodeman8469 rubber bands to maintain joystick direction, true iron sights, and even notched templates dont bother me on their own. they are considered as controller modifications. and although some communities dont accept controller modifications, what gets me about this specific notched template, is that it cannot serve its function without being precisely calibrated using an external program to determine exact units. its not just having set it up by "feel" and using it for consistency. it litterally could not have been calibrated by a human and still be able to serve its function. thus it is "assisted" by an external program or "tool".
@@DeadRogueGuy I mean again all those controller mods are the same under rulesets. I get this ones a bit more complicated but this is more akin to a bioshock infinite speedrunning situation where they play a modded version of the game that always gives them the perks they need for the run from the random boxes. Yes this notch is a bit more complex with the need for external calibration checking but the reason why it should be ok. is because it's for consistency sake. They can still do this glitch setup without the notch and just checking the values with the program. It's just insanely harder but if someone did get it they would have crushed everyone's else's runs by miles and it makes it a way less competitive environment since almost all runs just die there just like in the bioshock runs the community decided to use the modded version to keep the game a lot more competitive instead of sheer luck gating times.
@@codycodeman8469 my point still stands. its not about the notch, its about the other program checking the value. even if all you were doing was monitoring it live to see the value, running an additional program is what im saying makes it a TAS. barely. but still.
@@DeadRogueGuy and my point still stands. Any external tools would be considered a tas. And it's all or none. No picking and choosing. Rubber handing controllers true iron sights and duct taping controllers together are all tool assistance. Either all are ok or none are.
Me: Im not a speedrunner, or interested in speedrunning. I dont like OoT
Karl: Heres how a controversial new glitch could change Ocarina of Time Speedrunning forever
Me: You have my undivided attention
But how do you not like OOT 😳
Accurate af.
Nathan Gamble lmfao
@@mattlawrence6077 I don't hate it, but it is clearly the most overrated game of all time.
LinkedSnake it’s most definitely not overrated. It’s the game that changed games
Link with his hands up holding the invisible unloaded rock is sooo cute
"holding unloaded objects"
now it sounds like mario 64
I still prefer glitchless speedruns. Its just kind of satisfying to watch someone playing the game in perfection
I think less “broken” games are fun to watch with glitches allowed, but yeah, I agree with terribly buggy games like OoT glitch less is more interesting. However, I enjoy glitch-allowed speedruns of games like Subnautica or even something like Tomb Raider.
@@user-nv7uq3zj5e Link just had the power to manipulate time and space to kill Ganon, that's all. These "glitches" are actually the canonical ending to the game! 😂
I personally like no major glitches, in most games it still is the intended way to beat the game but allows player ingenuity to shiny, like bomb boosting on oot
@@plasmaoctopus1728 more later like the 'Goku' "Instant Transmission" ending version 😏
You mean actually playing the game?
Personally, as some others have expressed, I think this new strategy should be the new any% and the older strategy should be moved to a new category like "any% Kill Gannon"; any%, by definition, just means finish the game as quickly as possible with no other restrictions and, thus, should always evolve to be the fastest way to the end credits, no fluff. Something like this has seemed the inevitable end point for Ocarina of Time speed running for some time now and, with things like wrong-warping straight to the final boss room and save-file corruption already being allowed in any% and other categories, it's hard to justify _not_ allowing arbitrary code execution purely on the basis of "it makes the speedrun less fun to watch." I feel like someone who watches an OoT speedrun for "nostalgia" would be equally disappointed with both the old and the new any% strategies: both skip 95% of the game, the new strategy just adds another 4% to it, and, you know what, that's fine: 100%, All Dungeons, and Glitchless categories exist for those people. I feel like people who'd enjoy watching the old any% strategy, people who like seeing games broken in fascinatingly-efficient ways, would just as well like the new strategy: they'd just need some more explanation for what's happening.
MST is also a good category to see the game
I agree. Especially for oot/majoras mask. As there's randomizer runs, which means a lot of it is luck and skill based, but it's more "fun" to watch an obviously a lot longer. Watching a game get played abs watching the same game break are two very different types of fun.
I agree but breaking a game is not finishing it. I know it’s subjective but I just don’t have any respect for this level of exploitation.
I don't know what it is about your videos that make them so good but 15-25 minute videos just fly by like they are 2 minutes. Keep up the great work proud of your records too man. Very impressive!
Slippery slope: when you support game breaking, you don't get to choose the extent to which the game is broken.
...you realize the slippery slope is a fallacy right? That is to say, nothing about supporting game breaking disqualifies you from still drawing the line anywhere you want.
@@randomnobody660 that's not what the slippery slope fallacy means though the fallacy means that allowing 1 thing will lead to allowing another much more extreme thing like you know the allowing nazis in video games extra credits video
@@feritperliare2890 It is thou.
Like you said, slippery slope is the fallacy of thinking allowing one thing necessarily means allowing more things in the same direction.
This gentleman is saying if you support one glitch, you must support all others ("...you don't get to choose the extent...").
That is the same fallacy, just worded a little differently.
So does it count if someone randomly pushes buttons and the game starts rolling credits?
@@randomnobody660 If they want to come up with a set of rules defining the parameters of what an acceptable glitch is, that's fine. Otherwise, breaking a game is, well, manipulating it within the game itself to produce a desired result. Without an established set of accepted rules, stop whining.
I mean arbitrary code execution to warp to credits is valid in other any percent categories such as Mario world and pokemon gold, the ones before ace was discovered can just be called any percent no ace.
Agreed
People act like arbitrary code execution is a new thing, yet has been around for years like in the games you've mentioned. As a result those are their own categories.
mario has different categories - bowser defeat any% and credits screen any%
But warping to credits is so boring
@@vanillaGreen1 Then you don't have to run it, or watch it.
Any % isn’t about what’s “fun to watch” it’s about the fastest possible route. Other categories already exist for the more “fun” aspects of the run.
He also makes a good point about what's "fun to do" and if newly normalized strategies make the game unfun to the point where nobody but a handful want to compete, the community can be ruined. The fact that glitch-based runs like this in other games have a fraction of the submissions of more traditional runs speaks to this in volumes. Adding a new category was a good idea.
Like near the end of the video where the categories are now any% and any% no ACE?
Very true
Robin Hogan tying a controller with rubber bands does not count as a TAS LMAO. Do you even understand what TAS is? Bro. Reaching the title screen is the end of the game lmao. Any previous any% run wouldn’t count by your measures, because you would spawn back in as kid link and not have direct access to Ganon. The goal is to reach the credits, that’s the end of the game bud
Robin Hogan now this is interesting. I think I lean towards the argument that the end game flag has to be set. If completing the credits sets that flag, then I’d count it. But like you’ve mentioned, if the game is reloaded and the game isn’t beaten, I don’t know if it counts. Because the flag was never set. It’s similar to Mario kart speed runs in how you have to make it through specific plane checkpoints otherwise the lap doesn’t count. You simply can’t drive around the goalpost over and over. There are hidden set checkpoints that are checked so that when you fall off the map, the game knows where to put your kart back at. So you HAVE to set the flag for the checkpoint right before the finish line before crossing the finish line for it to count as a lap. I think that’s how speedrunning should be in general. If the final flag isn’t set, you didn’t technically complete the “lap.” You just drove around the flagpole.
Not even kurzgesagt could describe this in a nutshell
Vladarikt Terslov first completed OoT in 15 000 BC when he experienced a berry induced hallucination of the game that arose from a break down of his mind's cellular, quantum entanglement. He awoke having travelled 5 years into the past, giving him a time of negative 1821 days.
Do you know what the restrictions are for any%? "No Restrictions" and they have been doing credits warping for years before ganondoor was found, that is why the didn't even consider banning ACE outright in the main category
@María P. Is skipping 90% of what is intended to be done in the game and only fighting the final boss in an unintended way count as "beating the game"?
I say no. But that is pure semantics and personal interpretation by the definition, if we truly wanted to have this discussion it should have been around the time wrong warp was introduced and other exploits to and what they decided to do was create another category instead of saying "the game isn't *really* beaten". what I would say is honestly? just make Ganon% the old method or call this new one ACE%
Can I modify the game’s cartridge? Seems like I can because it says “No Restrictions” right? What about modifying the controller, or even creating a custom programmed controller? Cartridge tilting? Using outside source programming?
“No Restrictions” still has rules, and this video is discussion what some of the conversation occurring right now is in regards to those rules, and future rules changes.
I agree SRM and ACE shouldn’t be banned from any%, I also think allowing those to be accepted will kill the category in terms of viewers and entertainment. Personally I think OOT any% was already a worst category in terms of entertainment than 100% even before ACE when wrong warp was the optimal strategy. But entertainment quality shouldn’t dictate rules, the community eventually moves on to other categories to watch similar to Pokémon Yellow’s save corruption being the fastest, which nobody watches.
@@HeroicSheperd the"no restrictions" thing aplies for gameplay, there are rules in place that prevent you from doing exactly that(modifying hardware).
@María P. As for the position of the credits, really no one used to care until now, of course people on CZcams think is a big deal but runners have been warping to various positions of the credits (again) for years. They still do it in many categories and that includes OoT 3d I don't see why that has to change.
As for warping to the credits from the main menu it has already been done czcams.com/video/C2WdkMH9B54/video.html the caveat there is that you need a lot of setup in other files to achieve that, so you have to either take it as a ng+ run or a 35 minutes any% run.
The most legit reason I can think of to keep the old any% as the new any% is just for historical continuity. It’s clean and simple to have old any% keep its name and have ACE be its own category despite it being the best any% strat. It’s interesting to me because people’s opinions on this are very telling about their personality types. Very logical and efficient people, engineering types, just see it as ‘any% is any% why the hell is this being discussed,’ and they are not wrong for thinking about it like that. I like to play devil’s advocate, what if we just forget about that rule, and made an exception, what would the result be? In reality it might be less confusing for old any% to remain named as such, despite the misleading nature of the title. Im split on it
@@Relisoc exactly! Ace/Warping is a new category, no more warping or credit rolls in normal any %, problem solved
Honestly I am far more curious how runners find these exact movements to edit values for warps to work
They hook the game up to a computer and watch the code execute as they play. They then learn what they are trying to manipulate and watch until they figure it out perfectly. I assume it takes time.
Jacob how could you use an AI to find those? Can you shed some light on this topic?
@Jacob dude an ai didnt figure this glitch out after figuring out stale item manipulation can wrong warp in majoras mask to the end of the game a logical question is can a warp be done in oot that can get you close to the end of the game that's faster... the wrong warp to inside ganons tower was found by a real person noticing that the value of the boss room in the deku tree was oddly VERY close to the value of the room inside gannons tower collapsing and only works because the values are so close it can be changed by chance to the value you need wrong warps were used for a while cutting the time of any% by quite a bit each time a better place was found such as farores wind used to warp to the credits after less then 1 hour.
@Jacob how did people program in binary code with ones and zeroes? It seems amazing doesn't it. Just because you don't understand it doesn't make it impossible.
Computers, not AI
Is that the Mass Effect soundtrack you're using for the background? Genius!
I personally feel like a speed run doesn’t necessarily have to be entertaining; all that has to happen is the person beats the game as fast as possible. Also from what I’ve seen, you stop the timer when the credits play so as long as it’s possible to skip the final boss in a game then I think it’s perfectly fine to skip it (all you need are the credits to play). On another completely random note,,, no wonder N64 games are so scary! I’ve experienced some creepy glitches playing oot as a kid and shit still haunts me. oot really is a glitchy ass game lmao. Anyways nice video!! 🌸 (also I’m not a speedrunner I just like watching speedruns so if I said something wrong lmk)
any% means any% all glitches allowed. No ACE will probably be the most popular category, but any% can't have restrictions
The question here is more "Is that even beating the game". Even without restrictions, the point of any% is still to beat the game in the shortest possible time. But when you just void to the half of the credit scene after doing what looks more like a cheat code than actually playing, does that really count as "beating" the game?
I'm actually really asking. I'm not judging, not saying if it's a good or a bad thing, but I can understand why this is controversial.
I personaly don't know what to think about this myself. In a way, I agree with you, any% not suposed to have any restrictions, in another way, I'm not sure this is actually beating the game.
While I agree, sometimes any% can be complete shite to watch. Some games can be beaten in mere seconds leading to no competition or people wanting to see the run.
@@disliked1390 like I said I agree these runs should be in glitchless, its just the viability of that respective category will plummet most likely. Either way this was an insane improvement to the WR.
@@disliked1390 Same here. Not a fan with any controller or game modifications that can lead to advantages
Does "any %" include "no %?"
Because if you collect no key items, defeat no bosses, and do not clear any significant conditions then you're not running anything. You're just glitching the game until there is no more game to actively play. If the only thing you needed to do was defeat Gannon that would still be some % of the game, some game condition actually completed *as designed*.
Karl has a certain poetic way of telling us about these strategies, he's like the Hunter S Thompson of Speed Running. Great analysis, as always, you absolute LEGEND
Love it mate
Are you including the copious amounts of cocaine and neighborhood chicken farm backyard shootouts in this comparison?
"In a democracy... you gotta be a playa" - Hunter S. Thompson
@@Hunson115 I fucking love this reply!!!!
@@Hunson115 I just imagine karl In a backyard with some xbox 360 pajama bottoms on and him yelling boom head shot while shooting at his nabiour
"It was about Dam Agent :052 that the drugs began to hit.."
This run really really reminds me of the almost infamous ‘Complete Pokemon Yellow in 0: 00’ glitch that pretty much skips everything and is fairly boring to witness.
They may want to make a new category for it so that those actually invested in beating the final boss can have something to do.
Yeah, that speedrun is boring, but was fun to learn about it, imo.
Kurachi84 oh absolutely, it’s definitely fun to hear about such game breaking bugs and tricks but when it comes to actually watching it happen over and over it can get very stale.
It’s a good thing different categories exist for those interested in different things.
Torje is Norwegian btw @Karl Jobst , love your content. Keep up the good work. Love from Norway :)
Man and my speedrun time with OoT is still going. I'm at 14 years now
Woof, same though.
I stumble down on your channel by absolute chance some time ago, never having an interest in speedrunning and haven’t played video games for some years. I actually really enjoy this content and liked learning about this niche community and I enjoy the way you present the video and explain things in an easy to understand way that makes the video so entertaining and fun to watch. Thank you for the content I enjoy binging your videos.
I’ve watched for sometime, but I also haven’t played games in years but I just love This channel and karls eminent explanations of This Niche culture!
Same here, never cared for speedrunning as either a spectator or the runner but some of these vids are just fascinating to watch. I am a gamer though so I find it interesting to see how games can be abused and borked.
“It’s over, legend of Zelda any% is done” looool
Interesting thought: Would finding the center aim in golden eye and marking it with a marker on the screen be considered different than someone finding a controller position and preparing that before hand?
Me: :(
Karl Jobst: Hello you absolute legends
Me: :)
r/ihadastroke
"Validate meee!"
It's just an 'any%' run. The communities come up with subcategories that disallow specific glitches. This may not be a hugely entertaining run for viewers, but it's just as valid a category as any.
Speedrun community: "Glitches and other such bullshit are valid."
Also speedrun community: "Excuse me wtf, why isn't speedrunning more popular?"
You are aware that most games have a glitchless category, correct?
CreaperSiege like literally every game......... and speed running is perfectly popular for what it is
@@sjakierulez Exactly
@@BigSmoke-xh5hi Except speedrunning is actually quite popular these days and beunhaas is a toxic shit who doesn't know what he's talking about. Most people LIKE seeing the game broken to pieces.
Imagine a little kid 22 years ago in the first playthrough randomly running through Kokiri, leaving it and bamm the game is finnished by accident. xD
this is crazy, imagine all the unfound glitches in the games we are currently playing, even online, crazy.
But now they patch the glitches
Just wait till Todd rogers comes back with a 2nd gear glitch and takes over many speedrunning records
Lmao he shall perform SRM before the gameplay starts
I feel like "Is this completing the game?" isn't really relevant if it's in its own category, as many speedruns don't need game completion, but rather task completion.
@@cptnoremac i gave you a like for that.
Right? Just categorize whatever arbitrary rules people want to run by.
But if someone asks you "who beat the game the fastest," what do you say? Is it the person who beat the game with no glitches, and if not which glitches are okay, and if so why? That's why sometimes rules have to be implemented, sometimes a strategy will reduce the challenge of who can beat a game the fastest to total nonsense, and time has shown that simply disallowing all glitches is not a valid long term answer.
Some games have myriads of different speedrunning categories. However, "any%" has always meant completing the game, ie. reaching its end, as fast as possible. It now all comes down to the question of what it _means_ to "complete the game", to "reach its end". It's a question of definition. Some people don't agree that merely showing the end credits is enough for this.
@@HugoStiglitz88 I strongly, strongly disagree with this. For a glitchless category maybe, but most games have simple tricks that allow you to access areas early, skip animations/dialogue/cut scenes, or on the more extreme side getting out of bounds to run to the end of the stage. In most of these cases they're sill playing through every stage, just in a way that was unintended by the developers. They still complete the game fully so they still beat the game, just in a cleaver/exploitative way that was never intended.
7:55 I remember seeing pictures of people rubber-banding down buttons on n64 controllers lol.
Ok so studying the inputs and what you need to do beforehand sounds perfectly fine. Like I don't think studying should ever be frowned upon. BUT physically modifying your controller with tape and cardboard is sketchy af lol. Like what are cheat codes if not *digital modifications* so if digital mods are banned then physical mods should be banned too I think
Well now there are separate categories for runs with the glitch and without it so it doesn't matter.
A cheat code built into the game is just the game performing code. A cheat code using something else changes the code of the game, injecting other code into it, in a way that is impossible without the cheat device.
A physical modification to get a particular input is just providing more accuracy to people. People could hypothetically try many times and eventually get it by chance.
The idea that pre run prep should be counted into the run is BS. Does that mean that all the time spent finding learning and understanding the glitches and optimized paths also be added.
The only questionable part is the use of a modded controller which I do think effects the integrity of the run as it means you are no longer using the stock system
remember how putting a dot on your screen became accepted practice in goldeneye? that's a physical modification too. it's difficult to make rules about those because there's literally no way to know if that's what's happened from watching the run itself
@@thomasstone3480 agreed
Have you seen savestates 1.9 second NG+ run? It has 30m+ setup.
Nearly every OoT runs already used a controller mod called an ESS adapter to change the dead-zone on the stick because the GC and Wii versions are atrocious in regards to that and it makes otherwise simple ESS tricks much harder. There's no reason to allow that but ban a fucking notch. It being impossible to enforce without a hand-cam also doesn't help.
Fun fact, Majora's Mask banned ESS adapters, because the MM and OoT communities are, surprisingly enough, not the same people; there's some cross of course but it's different enough to have the vote go differently.
@@thomasstone3480 Maybe 20 years ago that was the case. Today many streamers have controller cams and requiring one to prove you're not modifying the controller should be considered
Everyone: WHY IS YOUR GAME SO BROKEN!?
Link: hyah
Still less broken than a Bethesda game.
Link: Well excuuuuuse me, princess.
If we are talking about "any%", I believe the whole point is to reach the end credits, or the "the end" screen as fast as possible, exploiting any means that is already in game (I mean you are not allowed to hack or reprogram the game, but if a backdoor is already there you are free to use it). People are speedrunning for fun though, so if a glitch kills the fun you can just create a new category. This happens all the time, and the most run category is often not the shortest. Allowing the controller to be fine-tuned this way before hand is another thing though. If you bring this idea to its extremes, I feel this is like preprogram a macro on your keyboard to input a specific sequence. While it is interesting as a technique, I don't think this should be compared with "plain" speedruns.
Funny you included the Vice City credits music... this video reminded me of the (imo) boring to watch new categories for VC that came out a few years ago involving warping to the final cutscene using replays and property purchases.
Awesome video as usual. Hope you cover more titles and exploits like this. Sonic 06 has a few.
You epxlained something so complicated in such easy straight-to-the-point way I'm actually impressed; yet my mind still remains blown xd
I feel like everybody in the comment section is forgetting something. The new ACE strategy was not forced into new category that allows using this glitch. It is still categorized as any%. It's just that runs that wasn't using the glitch were shifted to new category just for them (no ACE). The reason why this makes a difference is that if someone asks what is the WR for Ocarina of Time the answer will always be 9m 56s, which was done using ACE strat.
Uhhh.... no? The answer will probably be the 8:30 by DannyB. While having a custom controller is controversial - it is by no means a first for speedrunning. There were people, who specifically shaved off wedges between buttons to perform fast switching back and forth and their runs were not disqualified. This was only the straw that broke the camel's back and resulted in a community guideline vote. Once that's done, with noACE being separated out, I believe that having a custom controller is justifiable in Any%, because it is already a precedent for this sort of prep.
"Should the use of a plastic notch as a TOOL to get the right angle count as a TOOL assisted run?"
If it doesn't break the controller and can be done by a human anyway it's typically considered not TAS. Rubberbanding in goldeneye to help with the double controller setup, for example. TAS is typically for far faaaar more extreme stuff. Like literally playing the game a frame at a time to perfectly input commands manually exactly when needed, or having macros input thousands of commands in an instant. Things a human cannot do. That is the key. *Things* *a* *human* *cannot* *do* . A human is perfectly capable of sticking some cardboard to a controller and calling it a day.
If all it did was hold it up at some angle determined by *the player* (like rubberbanding) I would say it's kosher. But this does use a computer assisted tool to determine the exact angle and intensity of the joystick first. The runner themselves doesn't do that using their own skills. *That* and *not* the notch, are what make it tool assisted.
tl;dr you're right in *this specific* situation, but for the wrong reason.
should the use of your eyes as a TOOL to see the screen count as a
yes it should, you are right
@@crooker23 Naaaah... c'mon, that's a bit harsh. Eyes are fine.
If you need glasses on the other hand...
It's funny this pops up in my feed after watching one about the Holy Grail of Early Explosives in the 3DS OoT (still no real way of doing--but they've found other ways to get to the great faerie fountains, so no explosives needed).
People have this weird idea that a category being abandoned is bad instead of something that just... happens
I gotta be honest Karl, I've always really hated the idea that speedrunning rules being created with consideration for entertainment and fun in doing the run. There should always be one category that allows for basically anything a human can do, the Any% category.
But for the sake of argument, I think we can have it both ways. Any% category is done using the ACE technique, people find it and think "wow that's super weird, but what's the fastest like when you actually play the game?" and then they find the category that more matches up with the fun to do and watch mindset.
the rulling about the notch is not made because of fun, is because you need a setup to do the run, and you need to manipulate the hardware of your controller to do it
@@adriancaminati9640 i'm pretty sure he is talking in general in respons to karl about how speedrunning should be fun. Not the specific zelda case
Agreed, any% should have no restrictions in terms of banning ACE or SRM, but hardware modification should be a hard no. Entertainment wise this will kill the category, however that’s why you make alternate categories like any% no ACE etc....
Pokémon Yellow’s any% is under 1 second, nobody cares or watches streams of players speedrunning that category, players do however watch glitchless%, and any% no save corruption.
OOT will hit this point, and already 100%, all dungeons, and glitchless are endlessly more entertaining than the under 10 minute any% we currently have now.
Well if it's not fun to watch or do who want's. to do it maybe speerunners should just be boring try hards you are saying here
@@blueknight2983 Who said it wouldn't be fun to do? The problem with necessitating a certain level of fun for runs in the rules is inherently stupid.
KJ: "I really can't stress enough how intricate and genius this strategy is."
Me: I don't think ANYONE CAN. Just the Wrong Warp glitch alone was HUGE, but this? THIS IS JUST EXCESSIVE.
I’ve never really been part of the speed run community, just a big oot fan. I remember watching cosmo’s 18:10 and feeing like I was a part of history just seeing it shortly after it was accomplished. You just knew you were watching something iconic.
The strangest part of this whole discussion is that people think games deserve to remain popular indefinitely. What's wrong with letting a game run its natural course in the speedrunning community?
Speedrunning is a game of solving problems and puzzles. Once a game has been solved, It's completely natural for people to lose interest. If it's time for people to move away from Ocarina of Time, that's okay.
This is about people being disappointed that this may be the last big discovery. The end of a marathon. Speedrunners are crossing the finish line with OoT, and folks are sad that they have to pack up their stuff and go home now.
Everything ends.
Wise words. Reminds me of a quote of Confusius iirc.
"You have two lives. And your second life begins the moment you realize you have just one."
Not really. Even if any% is dead you have 100% and many more categories to choose from. Games are dead when nobody plays them anymore and that will never be the case in games that are beloved by so many people.
I kind of agree with this. As someone interested in speedrunning but with neither the skill nor commitment required to be a speedrunner, I don't really watch live attempts of games as optimised as this. I might occasionally pop back to watch a new record, but invariably it looks a little bit boring to me because so little is different from the previous record.
And in this particular case the new route is visually unsatisfying, and technically beautiful but on a level that only a handful of people in the whole world can appreciate. I think the fact the OoT is beatable in ten minutes is amazing; but actually watching that happen is more confusing than it is mind-blowing.
It's changes like these that have me gravitating toward glitchless any% and glitchless 100%. I like to see the mastery of completing sections of the game that normally take time, not just skipping hours of content due to exploits.
Glitches are no less a section of the game that a player can master than any other part of the game. If just any casual player could bomb-slide across the map freely and with no time spent mastering the glitch/exploit, it wouldn't be as impressive a feat.
In fact, almost every Super Mario speedrun that's not explicitly "Glitchless" exists purely on the basis of glitches and is enjoyable because of the people mastering the game's mechanics that allow them to pull off the glitches consistently. (And even then, those "glitchless Mario runs use things that exploit the game to skip hours of content anyway.)
Agree with Anthony. The entertainment value of a run does not live or die on the degree to which glitches are performed, but rather on a combination of how difficult the run is to perform (or at least how difficult it is perceived to perform; the less you understand a particular speedrun, the more likely you won't appreciate the difficulty thereof; I think this is part of why simple games like Mario are so popular for viewers: you can pretty much immediately appreciate how difficult the run is with almost no direct experience with the game) and how visually stimulating the run is to watch.
"glitchless" runs still often have players clipping through walls and such, it's such a cluster f at this point.
I mean, generally a Glitchless category allows for three things one might consider a glitch.
The first is when it's actually an exploit. Obviously, the boundary between a glitch and an exploit can be muddy, but generally speaking, an exploit is when two intended systems interact to produce an unintended result, whereas a glitch is when a system malfunctions on its own and produces an unintended result; the former is a design oversight (or possibly even intended), and the latter is a coding oversight. A good example I've seen given is damage boosting in Mario. When you take damage as big Mario, you are given a second or so of invulnerability, so as not to be immediately killed by whatever caused you to take damage. Speedrunners can use this to skip certain sections by intentionally taking damage to abuse the invulernability, but this isn't a glitch; it's intended behavior used in an unintended way. Of course, one could argue that anything in a game is a design oversight rather than a coding oversight, which is why things get muddy pretty quickly. In the original Super Mario, clipping works in part because the coders assumed that you'd face the way you wanted to go, and so try to push you backwards, so if you turn around as you start the clip, you'll instead be sucked into the wall. This is technically a system working as intended, in that the system is designed to push you backwards when you start clipping into a block, but to my eyes at least, it seems more likely that the system is intended to prevent clipping, with pushing the player backwards as a means to that end, rather than intending to push the player back as an end unto itself.
The second is a glitch that one is likely to perform by accident. I remember at a recent GDQ, someone explained during a glitchless run of Mirror's Edge that a particular tech that is considered a glitch is allowed in the glitchless category, because it's really easy to accidentally perform, and it would suck to have an hour+ run invalidated because you accidentally performed the particular glitch. And the third is when a glitch is particularly minor (doesn't save much time) and just improves the quality of life for the runner (makes something more consistent). These are *usually* only allowed in No Major Glitches categories, but sometimes a community decides to allow them in a Glitchless category, and have No Major Glitches be distinct for allowing more middle-range glitches.
Given this, it's hard to imagine clipping specifically being permissible in a Glitchless category, though I certainly can't rule it out.
Funny because i'm the opposite. I like seeing game code being broken in order to achieve the fastest possible time. To each their own I suppose.
I think categorization is the solution, in that way you can compartmentalized the different preferences people have when it comes to having fun. For some people it might be fun to just try to get their credits rolling using any mean necessary while for others having fun means getting to the credits by pure skill without using glitches at all.
If the games code registers the game as completed, defeating a final boss or not, is completed.
It's not that simple. Not all games do that in an obvious way. Humans have to pick a definition.
How do you know if the game registered that it was completed? It's not like most games tell you "hey good job, you completed the game".
@@aepstein824 Of course it wont be in an obvious way all of the time. I'm just trying to explain that if someone were to look at the code of the game via debug or any other exploit, and sees the hard data that says the game had been completed, it is completed. Having speed runs that use these kinds of glitches to have the game essentially check-the-box saying it was complete is pretty controversial since there is no concrete evidence that the runner didnt cheat or splice.
@@quickscopeoneeighty9158 Prove this. How do you know the game would show that? You don't. Soooooooo
Can’t wait until the olympics starts allowing any% 400m dash speed run where they just run 100 then cut across the infield to the finish
No, they just jump forwards and backwards.
Your channel has single-handedly gotten me interested in the subject of speedrunning. Thank you for the excellent content.
Did this not happen with Castlevania SOTN as well? Where you force the credits to roll by having specific items in your inventory in specific slots?
It's just the same principle as the Super Mario World credits warp. Stuff is getting written to a place memory via item and sprite manipulation that then triggers the credits.