Why The Oblivion Crisis Changed Tamriel Forever - The Elder Scrolls Lore
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- čas přidán 26. 06. 2024
- Introduction Video: • The History of Tamriel...
An-Xileel Video: • The Secretive Rulers o...
Ocato Video: • High Chancellor Ocato ...
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As people in the comments pointed out its worth mentioning that Ocato in Oblivion says he cannot pull troops from the provinces. But then in Skyrim and later lore BGS kinda retconned that by stating the empire did pull troops out.
It is possible the Empire pulling out troops is “propaganda” by factions who could benefit, and that the empire didnt actually pull out troops in reality. But either way did the empire not adequately protect the provinces and the legions left the provinces apparently largely to their own devices creating the same sentiment. Or the legions performed so badly that the people in the provinces got the impression as if troops were pulled out. All is possible to explain this contradiction.
And if it was propaganda, it was still caused by the oblivion crisis meaning the central point of the video still kinda stands. But I hadnt really considered that angle yet. Prob should have.
Anyway whatever truth there was to Ocatos statement, the psychological effects on the population in the remained the same and anti imperial sentiment still flourished because of it.
Or propaganda changed the narrative in places that broke from the empire in the intervening 200 years. What we see with our own eyes in games is canon. What NPCs say about things that happened centuries ago is subject to unreliable narrator rules.
@@EJDubbz very true
@@ImperialKnowledge don't mean to nitpick. You make great videos. Thanks for all your hard work entertaining us. Happy holidays.
@@EJDubbz No it isn't nitpicking mate. Multiple people pointed it out and its a very good point I hadnt really given much thought. Its important these kind of things are pointed out so I can add it to the top comment! You also have happy and safe holidays!
that or the legions pulled out without permission to protect their homes thus while Ocato is trying to deal with the crisis, thus to the others they pulled out while as far as the leadership knows they're still back at their posts
It reminds of the theory that says Mehrunes Dagon actually succeeded in his objective as lord of Change and Revolution, even if he didn't manage to conquer Tamriel proper. After all, that's his thing, causing chaos
Exactly
True, had it been Molag Bal, he would've failed. But since its Dagon we're talking about... welp, he got exactly what he wanted
@@thalmoragent9344 Molag Bal is the Prince of Rape.
A failed invasion implies the despoiling of the land, the penetration of foreign masses into a virgin land, and even failing the invasion will not stop fear and change and cultural outlooks and hope and despair and glory to be injected deep into the race.
A god can't lose, because fulfilling spheres is really easy.
@@weeaboobaguette3943
Molag Bal failed in his Plane Meld attemp though. Bal is a Prince of Corruption but also Domination, ans he failed to truly Dominate Tamriel.
Overall, Tamriel is also definitely NOT a Virgin land 😅 he ain't the first Daedra or large scale cataclysmic event to occur on Tamriel or Nirn for that matter.
The Princes even when they lose they win. Dagon brought destructive change, Bal corrupted the remains of an empire, Sheo became Jyg got his ass beat only for the beater to become a New Sheo. Even Hircine had his fun in his hunt whether we were a beast or beast hunter in the end we face them in a one on one match...What better way to prove worth?
They win even when they lose because nothing could ever end their existence permanently and their domains that give them purpose and identity are fundamental forces of nature that can't be rejected entirely.
After the Oblivion crisis, Tamriel entered the Game of Thrones phase...
The Oblivion Crisis was to Tamriel what the Crisis of the 3rd century, the Mongol Conquest of the 13th, or the assassination of Franz Ferdinand in early 20th were to Eurasia. A major focal catalyst of war and spiraling chaos that would forever shake and change the region. A lot of possible directions that can be taken, it would be interesting to find out who of the major factions will end up winning out, when Bethesda finally decides to actually continue the story after Skyrim in who knows how long.
The weakening of cyridillic empire is
Similar to the weakening of the Byzantine empire
The 3rd century of what?
@@pastorofmuppets4552 ; The Crisis of the 3rd Century refers to a series of crises across the continent of Eurasia which lead to the division and collapse of the Han Empire in China, the destruction and conquest of the Parthian Empire in the Middle East, and the near collapse of the Roman Empire in the Mediterranean. Frequent wars, plagues, and famines lead to the deaths of tens of millions of people.
@@NovoCognition Ah, thank you.
I always assumed the idea that Ocato pulled back the Legions to protect Cyrodiil was little more than Thalmor and Redoran propaganda, especially considering how I clearly remember Ocato telling me the opposite in Oblivion, refusing to give me legionary support for Bruma due to the political fallout that would occur from pulling Legions out of the provinces.
Ocato: "Besides... I'd have a full-scale political crisis on my hands if I tried to pull any troops out of the provinces. I'm sorry, but the cities of Cyrodiil will have to fend for themselves for the time being"
Yeah I adressed that in the top comment but I assumed it was a bethesda retcon when writing the script. But indeed may have been propaganda. See the pinned comment for my full thoughts :)
Well, where was the Empire when Blackmarsh started to invade Morrowind? The An-Xileel also lead to the fact that the Empire pulled out, so...
@@thalmoragent9344 The Empire never fully controlled the entirety of Black Marsh, only the outer reaches - the border territories, the inner forests are too dense and dangerous to humans and elves for them to properly exert authority
@@Augustei There were Legions deeply within Morrowind they should've been fighting the Argonians while defending the Dunmer. Given this seemingly didn't happen at all that directly showcases that sometime between the direct aftermath of Oblivion and the Argonian Invasion that the Imperials completely withdrew from the province.
The blame may indeed be misplaced onto Ocato...Perhaps it occured during the Interregnum that followed and history simply simplified the ordeal. Or perhaps Ocato changed his mind after the game for whatever reason. Who knows but the point is it's not entirely anti-Imperial propaganda because otherwise the Argonian Invasion would've played out differently...Mainly the Argonians being seen as enemies of the Empire.
@UCwNq7UML_kqu9hAzTgoN49g The legions in morrowind were likely decimated by the red year just as the dunmer were, as to Ocato wasnt he busy trying to deal with the rising threat of the Thalmor that ended up assassinating him shortly after?
Us Argonians literally invaded OBLIVION. Fear us.
You could totally write a book like a massive tome of elder scrolls lore
I wish
"Why The Oblivion Crisis Changed Tamriel Forever"
Daedra in Deadlands : "You mean why the Argonia crisis changed the Deadlands forever ?"
Meanwhile in Argonia : "A crisis ? What crisis ?"
Without Mancar Camoran the Empire could have bring Tamriel for few more centuries of prosperity. Uriel VII was so near to acheave the imperial dream 😢
Imperial dream? SKYRIM IS FOR THE NORDS
I mean, the Empire wasn't some holy, perfectly peaceful time man... the War of the Red Diamond, the unprovoked invasion of Akavir, I mean... just saying, there's actually a few bad things that occur under Imperial Rule
@@variaxi935 ratio
@@thalmoragent9344 Tbf the invasion of Akavir could be justified as payback. I mean Akavir invaded first.
@@TeCHnORiOT
Yeah, to find and then bow to Reman.
Even then, they still did it unprovoked since it had been, what, how many centuries since the time of Reman? It's been a LONG time and they made allies with the Empire after all.
Plus, it was mostly humanity that dealt with their invasion, not Elven kind, so the memories and generations since then had LONG faded for humans
A lot of the problems would not have happened if Skyrim's narrative stuck with literally what Ocato himself says:
“Besides... I'd have a full-scale political crisis on my hands if I tried to pull any troops out of the provinces. I'm sorry, but the cities of Cyrodiil will have to fend for themselves for the time being."
It's a case of the Redoran just being a big-ol case of the Unreliable Narrator. The Legions not being recalled wasn't retconned - it was just ignored by the Redoran as a means to gain power.
@@dutchpatriot17 exactly this, the legion didn’t abandon anywhere during the Oblivion Crisis.
The reason why the legion abandoned Morrowind is because of the Red Year.
@@alexanderfurrows7946 I somewhat doubt the Legion abandoned Morrowind even then - pretty sure they'd just have been wiped out from Red Mountain's eruption.
@@dutchpatriot17
So, where was the Empire when Blackmarsh started to invade Morrowind?
It's clear the Imperial presence isn't there. The Legions were pulled out and it left the Dunmer to fend for themselves, as well as a few other Provinces, so yeah, they didn't ignore the issue.
Unless you're trying to say something else?
@@thalmoragent9344 The Legion presence in Morrowind was minimal to begin with, and already understaffed during TES III, with no hope of reinforcements. Clearly the Legions died during the Oblivion Crisis and the eruption of Red Mountain.
Man since the fall of the Tribunal, so many disaster occured in Morrowind...
- Oblivion Crisis
- Red Year due to the explosion of the volcano
- Argonians 'invasion
what's next ?
landfall?
*cough Cough*
The destruction of Vivec City due to Baar Dau, thus beginning the Red Year
Worse Great House Redoran and Telvanni fall to ruin while Hlaalu comes back into power making the usage of the word N'Wah illegal to use. Also that Argonians become the new royal family of Morrowind.
The funny thing is Morrowind would have been better off with Dagoth Ur alive. All these problems stemmed from losing the heart.
Yeah, Dagon quest wasn't to conquer Tamriel.
As God of revolutions his main goal was to end the status quo established by Septim dynasty.
The An-Xileel were so absolutely destructive to oblivion that the literal forces of hell would rather face the chosen warrior of the emperor instead of a bunch of lizard dudes with spears.
Yes, the Daedric Prince of Change and Revolution was defeated.
And so the victorious land of Tamriel have risen to a state of change and revolution.
WAKE UP SHEEPLE MEHRUNES DAGON *WON* HE *WON*
I didn't even know that this was in doubt. I realized this like the first time I played Skyrim after playing Oblivion clearly Tamriel was changed and by violent means leading to more destruction. I was like yep Dagon got what he wanted maybe not completely but mostly.
Poor Champion of Cyrodiil and Martin, they went through all that harshness, still there were lies about them solving everything.
Nice video, do you mind making a video about what happened to the Knights of The Nine after the Champion vanished away to the Shivering Isles? (Sorry about my english)
My question is if the Knights defy the Mede Dynasty and Aldmeri/Thalmor still claiming Talos as a True God...Of which they know for certain to be true and given their historical roots they're highly suspicious if not hostile to Elves that make deals with Daedra (which the Thalmor have). Or if the Knights in order to stay relevant and approved of to gain public support would convert to Knights of the Eight taking out all Talos/Tiber elements.
If it's the former just like the Blades they could be a redundant and unapproved faction in the Empire while the Thalmor are allowed to hunt them down as criminals/traitors. If it's the latter the Knights should indeed have public approval if not Mede government/Imperial Cult support...However be weakened regardless because either Talos or all of the Divines would abandon them for being traitors of the faith. No more miracles or blessings or Divine Champions would occur.
They're stuck between betraying their Empire or God/s. They know what gives them True Holy Power but also what'll allow them to continue existing. They'd know the Truth they'd know the Thalmor are existential enemies no matter what.
Me I'm thinking they secretly still worship Talos if not secretly supporting fellow Talos worshippers like the Talos Cult and Stormcloaks while rebranding as the Knights of the Eight publicly building greater ties with the Imperial Cult while having a negative distant relation with the Mede's themselves. Trying to win over the faithful directly and being pro-war against the Dominion.
@@flamesofchaos13 Thanks for the comment dude, I actually agree with everything you said, and there is a big chace that they were hunted down as traitors by the Aldmeri Dominion/Thalmor. It's weird that this isn't explored at all in Skyrim, at least to me, they aren't even mentioned.
@@du2981 Yeah it's a shame but to be fair we're in Skyrim where that religious order has no influence or presence. Instead we got the Vilgilants and Dawngaurd and a Moth Preist. Technically the Imperial Cult is there but it makes sense that it's not as significantly impactful in Skyrim that traditionally had it's own faiths. Which is where Bethesda really overlooked we should be seeing big Cults related to the Worship of Kyne (solely), the Old Nordic Pantheon and seeing more minor Cults related to The All-Father (Skaal) and even Dragons. If the Reachmen and Orcish Faiths can survive into the Fourth Era Skyrim then so should the rest of the Old Faiths just with less power and numbers.
Also the Companions being Werewolves should've had a religious/philosophical schism between adherents that worship Hircine and adherents that follow the Old Nordic Pantheon and adherents part of the "Imperial" Faith.
The Knights and Imperial Cult are great additions to me but it should be noted where they should and do have power and if they have any significance to the story being told. Well given the Empire is currently at peace with the Thalmor while declaring one of the Nine a False God banning it's worship...Holy Warriors/Crusaders meant to fight and kill Heretical Elves wouldn't be popular at this point in time. During the Great War probably, To return to popularity if they survived in the Second Great War likely.
I hope they lived and who knows maybe they expand past the bounds of Cyrodiil into the likes of High Rock and/or Hammerfell (the seemingly likely next setting in majority Anti-Thalmor lands meaning numerous potential allies). I could see the Second Great War starting because Hammerfell and High Rock are the greater military threats to Dominion Rule and their numerous enemies flock there...I could see this being the main plot of the next TES.
@@flamesofchaos13 Agreed, about the next TES, I think it will be set in Hammerfell, and probably the Second Great War will have to do with it, it could be that the Knights survived, and Hammerfell seems to have a different pantheon with some similarities with the Imperial Divines, like Tava, wich would be Kynareth in their pantheon, so they could be popular there and I hope in TESVI this isn't ignored like the Old Nordic Pantheon was in Skyrim.
I find it interesting that Ocato was such a figurehead because during oblivion, he's very much NOT an important character. You speak to him all of twice during the entire Mythic Dawn subterfuge/assault/Paradise scheme, nor does he divert forces to the Battle of Bruma.
That specifically is interesting as according to post crisis Cyrodiil, Ocato withdrew imperial forces and resources from the other provinces solely to strengthen the empire but yet knowing that the failure of the Battle of Bruma would have ended the fight right then and there, there is no support from the high council. [Edit: I just saw the pinned comment, and to highlight why I mention the troops argument is that I truly believe that if Ocato had been made aware of the immediate threat within Cyrodiil, as well as the plan between the Blades and the Champion of Cyrodiil, I believe the empire could have made a calculated rationing of resources to help end the crisis much swifter than it did without their help]. I think that if Jauffre had told Ocato specifically what was happening and that Martin Septim was alive that the empire as a whole could have pulled resources and swiftly ended the crisis, and potentially have kept the Blades alive with a purpose, seeing as many of the citizens, as well as the members themselves, believed they had failed the Empire; so a joint task force could have boosted morale for all as well as given the Blades a better backing.
Tl;Dr Ocato should have been more important during Oblivion, and the lore is inconsistent.
Imperial Knowledge vid?
not even gonna skip the ad. May you keep putting out the good stuff
CZcams ads have become too much, please skip them. Lol
Thank you for linking out to your other videos, it makes your channel more of an encyclopedia and I love it. Helps with the various deep dives I've gone on!
As much as I despise the Thalmor, I have to wonder if they genuinely believe that they were the ones that closed the Oblivion gates, at least in the Summerset Isles. Im no lore expert so Ive always assumed they were actively entering and closing the portals, not on the level of the Argonians, but still getting in there and closing some down. Then when Martin defeated Mehrunes Dagon and the portals closed they just assumed they were the ones that had triggered something to close the ones in their own land
Essay incoming, so tldr; its reasonable since they did made attempts to stop the crisis on the isles.
Its not unreasonable to think they would believe that. From the way most Thalmor and Altmers talk of the crisis and daedra in general, they are one of the worst hit. So it stands to reason they would fight the hardest and bloodiest, if not to survive, then to at least slaughter as many as the monsters they can. I'd imagine that they, unlike their human counterparts, actively launched attacks deep into the Daedric portals, just going full on Nanking in full hatred and anguish, unleashing atrocities that would make the IJA proud. They were not successful like the Argonians, but damn did they made the Daedra suffer. So when Martin closed the gates, they would also think they played a huge part in it, since they spilled so much blood, so of course they were the ones who closed it.
Honestly, looking at the Thalmor's history, its justified why they became so genocidal. They were born from the resentment of imperial control and backhanded manipulation, and sanctified with the carnage of the Daedra. No wonder they became so warped, so hateful of any outsiders. If anything, they became my favorite faction. I too hate it when lesser peoples try to destroy my culture and history.
Some of this is headcannon, so take it as you will. I just love the Thalmor. They're essentially a successful Imperial Japan.
@@ikmalkamal5830damn the implications behind you “loving” the Thalmor speaks volumes…
Thanks for the video! You do awesome lore videos.
Awesome video my friend! Keep up the great work!
I appreciate the large-scale overview!
Plz do a video about the Militaries of tamriel plz!
Your videos are stupendous. Keep it up.
The work of Mythic Dawn may not have been ended with what they want or Camoran wanted to rule over, but succeeded through the Daedric Prince they worship. As to why Sheo/Jyg decided to simulate Greymarch, the same time or era as the Oblivion Crisis is another topic entirely-- either to teach the Prisoner something or to be able to ingrain change to their mind.
Do you have a video detailing the elder scrolls online, the current game? I'm trying to get my bearings on the time line. I haven't played the older games, only eso online. I find the lore to the game very interesting. Thank you for all that you do!
I reccomend watching my introduction to TES lore video for background lore on the entire setting and my older video on the reman empire (its old so the narration isnt as smooth as nowadays but the info is still good) that vid on reman empire details some of the direct lead up to the events of ESO from the previous empire to the soulburst which started the events of eso.
Nice vid
I thank the three good daedra everyday for the existence of this channel
Hah indeed it did, the Empire became corrupt and started crumbling.
I really think bethesda should use the time better, 200 years is a lot for that little to happened
Exactly
You'd be surprised how little can actually happen in 200 years.
For example, if you don't get into the nitty gritty of the details of it, the last 200 years of Earth History can be summed up as "Industrial Revolution, The World Wars, and the Cold War."
@@VelociraptorsOfSkyrim Fair point, AND Tamriel is not in/beyond an industrial society, so far less will happen in 200 years there than in our world
What's 200 years for the Elves (leading and populating three of the provinces) and Vampires and Sentient Trees? Seriously only for Humans would that be a big deal and we can sum it up easily...We did what our forefathers did farm, eat, shit, piss, fuck, kill, rise and repeat.
Chaos that's what we know happened everywhere except Argonia.
I hate the Oblivion crisis. It destroyed Tamriel.
Without the Oblivion crisis the continent wide dragon return crisis would not of been as destructive and could of pulled resources together to crush them. If at all the Dragonic crisis still happened.
Which province would you prefer to be in , Imperial Knowledge?
Before I watch… imma say one thing zorky… I think the end of the Dragonborn bloodline and the removal of the need for a dragonblood is big on its own.. let’s see other reasons
That is an important part of the chain reaction the crisis set in motion, yeah.
@@ImperialKnowledge I feel that’s probably the main reason, in my opinion it was the leadership of the dragonblood that made the empire great…. I think If an septim or hell even a relative survived it would’ve made an huge difference
good vid
What about Hammerfell? The Empire surrendered the province to the Dominion, but the Redguards didn't like that at all so they went to war with the Thalmor and successfully (?) drove them out.
So, that's another loss for the Empire.
Wait the minute... I keep hearing people are saying that Akatosh and Alduin are the same. If that's the case then why did Akatosh/Alduin create the Dragonborn to destroy Akatosh/Alduin in the first place? That's just stupid! I prefer Akatosh and Alduin as themselves instead of the same being.
They are absolutely not the same being. Alduin was born of akatosh, firstborn of akatosh to be precise. In the common man’s terms you could see him as a son of akatosh.
Actually the players that says Akatosh and Alduin they are probably some players that skipped some info about their lore
The Old Atmorans mistakenly believed Alduin to be Akatosh. Emphasis on mistakenly.
So in Lore that existed prior to Skyrim it’s implied that Alduin is a cultural interpretation of Auriel/Akatosh, like how Shor is a cultural interpretation of Lorkhan/Sehzarr, however the events of Skyrim changed it so Alduin was a creation of Akatosh and was created to destroy the world, hypothetically you could make the argument that Alduin is an aspect of Akatosh like how Barbus or Umbra is an aspect of Clavicus Vile, but at the end of the day he’s his own entity.
@@JinKolmak_TaKo I can tell
oh god im chimming
Legions dont were pulled of Morrowind, Ocato says in Oblivion that he cant do it.
Love this channel. One of my favorite TES lore channels
I always figured that our skyrim character end up becoming emperor and defeated Ulfric to retake skyrim. Idk y but it always made sense to me
@@panzerfk0626 ik that's not the point of the comment did u not read it
With all due respect. I think the stormcloaks might win this one. Or not. But with every interregnum that happened in Tamriel the provinces eventually became independent. And with the dark brotherhood quest when Titus Mede is assassinated and any related to him, the Mede interregnum will happen. And this mayby why Elder Scrolls 6 is taking place in Illiac Bay. During the interregnum and the thalmor pull a move. Also the Direnni Tower is in the Illiac Bay as well. Idk what the story will be yet but we know that the empire is falling. But I have feeling Cyrodill won’t be invaded easily tho since most of the legions are deployed in the southern border. But if they pulled legions from the border into Skyrim there would be no doubt the empire would win the civil war. But since they are openly recruiting and Talos is pretty big in Skyrim, I have a feeling Skyrim will be independent in Elder Scrolls 6. But great video man. 💯🤘🏻
I figured that our character killed ulfric and took over the empire
could u credit the artists the art in the beginning is amazing but idk who its from
If it isnt credited then it is official game art! I credit all fan art. Im not able to take a look at the video right now as I am on a bus on limited 4G but I reccomend looking at TES Legends Card Art on the Uesp. They have most of it, and considering my love for legends art it is probably that.
@@ImperialKnowledge cool thx
Very engaging and enjoyable video I liked it I believe you're 60% right but the other 40% really could be up to chance and debate I also think that the last dragonborn will be the last one to truly really fix things and pick up or Tiber septum left off along with doing what the dragonborn alone would do establishing things that Talos hadn't thought of perhaps at any rate The last dragon mourns want to be a big deal for the history of tamriel
Oblivion Crisis is the best thing to have ever happened to Tamriel imo. Not only did they get an actually interesting and justified faction rising from the blood and horror (the Thalmor), Tamriel now became a free for all once again, instead of this boring unity crap the hypocritical empire seems to love to harp on about. Would love to see ES6 showcasing the Thalmor destroying the empire again, and actually letting us join them. We can join Caesar's Legion in FNV, so why not join an actually cool faction with actual style, and will definitely reward you generously.
Does Akavir exist? all these daedra and nothing happened to Akavir? Not even the daedric princes ever mention Akavir I think.
Akavir exists. Tamriel has been invaded by them many times
@@rohhsand3044 But the dragon breaks and shit, what if it's just people from atmora?
@@thestagesofgrief6454 I doubt it. We have pretty hard evidence that yokuda, atmora and akavir exist and are seperate continents.
@@rohhsand3044 Yeah, but the the only real proof we have that Akavir exists is that Uriel Septim V went there and captured a couple of cities, it probably exists but if Akavir is to the east why did they come from the sea in the north of Skyrim?
@@thestagesofgrief6454 We cant Even be 100% sure that nirn is a perfect sphere, it might be so deformed that they had to come from the north. Lol
There could be many other explanations, but what we know is that they invaded and said they were from akavir. I think thats therefore the most likely scenario
2:40. Doesn't Ocato say he did the exact opposite of that in Oblivion?
"I'd have a full-scale political crisis on my hands if I tried to pull any troops out of the provinces. I'm sorry, but the cities of Cyrodiil will have to fend for themselves for the time being."
Yup but according to the provinces the opposite happened. I refer to the pinned comment for a correction I made regarding this angle.
@@ImperialKnowledge What you see > What you hear. House Redoran is notorious for its hatred of the Empire. Nearly preventing the Nerevarine from becoming Hortator because of it.
We see firsthand in TES IV that it's Cyrodiil that's being neglected. Some fake news from House Redoran doesn't change that.
@@EJDubbz Yes but from what i remember on mid game Dagon made worse the situation opening multiple Oblivion gates around Cyrodill
@@JinKolmak_TaKo after the battle of Bruma? Could be, been a long time since I played Oblivion.
Seems like the 9/11 of es
So, basically, Dagon won.
Bruh
it was kinda like an alien invasion even took divine intervention to stop