Policing London - The Thief-Taker General - Extra History - Part 1
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- Äas pĆidĂĄn 29. 11. 2019
- đ History of Policing London: The Thief-Taker General -These days we kind of assume that police are a normal part of law and order. But that wasn't always the case. In fact, it wasn't the case for a lot of human history. So how did we start thinking of police as a natural part of a city? It all starts in London with the Thief-Taker General Jonathan Wilde, a man of two faces. Which one is real: valiant crime fighter or the puppet master of London's underbelly?
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#ExtraHistory #London #History
Thief-Taker General and Cutthroat Criminal Mastermind? Get yourself someone who can do both.
Can you do an extra history on midway please.
I love your vids ps pls make a Bismarck card
Acab
Hello ThereerehT olleH
Extra Credits
Love most of the history stuff... hate most of your staff.
"Running a prominent gang known as The Mathematicians." I mean, if you ask most people, multiplication and division are really scary.
agreed.
And most people need more education, see?
They got nothing on exponentiation.
Especially if you're the one being divided.
Maths.
Wilde: "He's a liar!"
Public: "hm yeah yeah"
Wilde: "and... gay"
Public: *GASP*
Public to Hitchin:"why are you gae"
@@CrazyNerdMonkey
Being gay isn't bad?
Wild: heâs a liar your honor and corrupt
The judge: yeah so what everyone is
Wild: *HE ALSO HAS THE BIG GAY*
The judge: *UNACCEPTABLE*
BE GAY DO CRIME
@@garrettallen7427 Honestly, Corruption was considered simply the 'necessary upkeep' of law and order at the time. It was so entrenched that you just hoped to find someone so good at their job that whatever they stole or extorted could be called a reasonable salary.
Hitchen: "Wilde is a thief!
Wilde: "Hitchen is Gay!"
Everyone else: "huh, he makes a point"
Seems like some things never change lol
*IF YOU'RE GAY, THEN YOU'RE TO BLAME*
(SARCASM)
@@skyes4552 If he breathes, he's a thot.
I mean, totally independent of that, he was a terrible person. We should remember that.
1k like
Ah so Wilde used the tried and true argument to discredit someone
âUr gayâ
No u
He actually got cancelled
We've evolved from such base accusations, Now its
"Ur antisemitic"
@@fluoridegood4you622 yeah stuff like
"Ur a commie"
Yeah and? Workers rise up
@@fluoridegood4you622 shut the fuck up boomer
side note: discharging soldiers and sailors at this time period also lead to The Golden Age of Piracy.
And its great that we take care of our vets so they aren't homeless or things like that
It's quite a common phenomenon. Civil War veterans also became bandits in the Wild West such as in the case of Jesse James. Even ISIS was substantially composed of former members of Saddam Hussein's military. Disenfranchised soldiers make deadly criminals.
@@greymind9815 Easier to make sure police are more heavily armed than the populace and given carte blance to "enforce the law" as they see fit.
That and Gol D. Roger's execution.
@@evanulven8249 Wow it sure is nice heavily armed police forces have no flaws and that our vets are taken good care of today. America certainly is the best country in the world. Nothing could ever possibly go wrong from here.
"He runs a criminal empire"
Georgians: Hmmm
"He also is gay"
Georgians: Now that's it! Do him in!
Thank god things have changed, right!
RIght?
Oh.
Oh yeah, being a criminal mastermind is just fine, but being gay? Nope!
Based georgians, very red pilled.
"That's all you had to say, boy"
Amber yea thank god things have changed and you are not arrested for being gay
So really harsh penalties DIDNâT deter crime? Well I guess itâs a good thing no oneâs ever tried doing that again
Ikr we such an good society! Its not like we put people in jail for stealing 159$ jacket in for life!
czcams.com/video/g_fO4Bw4XU8/video.html
Oh wait
Yep how funny would it be if we tried that again hahaha
And who would have known for-profit prisons would create an incentive structure that did not include decreasing crime.
It's really hard for rulers to get it into their head that most criminals, especially thieves, commit these crimes because they have to, not because they want to.
Criminals are, as a rule, not very good at calculating risk vs reward. Well, not white-collar criminals because they make *a lot* of money for much less risk, but in general it's true.
My dad used to work as a public defender for petty criminals (it used to be the norm in Canada that all lawyers would put in a few years of defending people who couldn't afford lawyers before moving on to more lucrative careers). There was one guy who was a repeat customer - he'd break into houses, get caught, go to jail and just do the same thing upon release. At one point my dad sat down with the guy and walked him through the math - how much he made from breaking into houses, how much he lost to the fences taking their cut, how much time he took to pull off these jobs, etc. It turns out the guy was making far less than minimum wage.
My dad (still young and naive) assumed that having taught the guy how little he was actually making would convince him to give up crime for a more lucrative, legal career. Instead, the guy tries to rob a corner store with a fake gun. He's probably still in jail, if he's still alive.
The biggest thing that they didnât understand is that over-harsh punishments will not deter crime because if you have no other options then the benefits of the crime outweigh the punishment as long as you donât get caught.
I know right? If people are stealing because otherwise they'd starve to death or die of the elements due to homelessness, then the death penalty isn't worse than what they were already facing without crime.
@@fieldy409 exactly, that is why these types of policies almost never work, because for people in extreme desperate situations death is a preferred alternative to what they have
I think another big reason for the many death sentences was the fact that prisons were (as said in the video) overcrowded and basically an university for crime. So even if they knew that harsher sentences donât work, they likely wouldâve still kept the same system.
Itâs like having strict parents. Instead of teaching you not to steal, a snicker bar for example, they teach you to take it while theyâre distracted and to put the wrapper in your siblingâs room.
So in case anyone was ever wondering about real-life thieves guilds, I guess this would be a good one?
How did you get here 16 hours early? Do Patreons get early access?
@@parrek1384 Time travel.
(Also, yes.)
@@parrek1384 he's in good with the thieves guild, you cant touch him
I wonder if there's a vetanati type about to show up.
This sounds like US politics
So this is exactly where Pratchett got the idea that the Thieves' Guild was the de facto police force in Ankh-Morpork before the City Watch got their act together
I was thinking about Ank Morpork the whole time I was watching this, we really lost a treasure when Sir Terry died đ
Ankh-Morpork started as more or less typical fantasy metropolis, but as time went on, he started to have more and more of historical London and New York in it. Sir Pratchett has created something really unique there, as he always did.
Also why Vimes reacted so explosively to being labelled a 'Thief Taker' in Jingo
@@ericwills932 nice catch, I forgot about that
Imagine being in a brothel then hearing people scream "run! its the bloody *mathematicians* "
this is totally a tv series that I would watch!! I've NEVER heard of this man, and honestly? sometimes reality is truly stranger than fiction.
I know right
John wild life was a wild life!
Wait till you see his downfall.
This would have served as an excellent Assassin's creed setting
It is stranger than fiction cause while fiction has no bounds to reality, it has to be thought of by humans, but real events are not thought up, they happen and are not bound to human creative limits.
"Left his wife and son..." Later "his new girlfriend"... Did his wife and son ever see all the papers on him and go 'wow I wish he would come back sometime"
As much as his exploits are fun to listen to, this guy was an asshole of the highest degree, and his wife was probably glad to be rid of him.
Following.
Good question
Ouch
Honestly probably not him taking up with a new girlfriend was cheaper and easier than a divorce and since he had left her with whatever property they were already living in. She was probably fine not good but possible especially in the area before divorce with even a possibility marital abandonment was pretty common.
Hitchen: *I'm about to end this man's whole career*
Wild: ***UNO REVERSE CARD***
"He ran a prominent gang named the Mathematicians"
Huh, never knew that my Math Teacher was a Gang Member
He Broke Bad.
The sad irony of a place supposed to reform criminals actually turning into THE place to train them...
This episode is great, what a story! I was on the edge of my seat the whole time!
Many think that this still is the case specially in the cases of first timers and young people.
I heard an ex-con talking about this once. He said it is still the case: prison is where criminals learn from other criminals how to improve their crime. After all, they have a lot of time on their hands in a place full of criminals. What else is there to talk about?
Prisons at the time weren't ever intended to reforms criminals, simply serve as holding pens. The theory of reformation of criminals in confinement was developed in the early 19th century United States, with the primary push coming from Pennsylvania Quakers and expressed in Eastern State Penitentiary (hence the name "penitentiary" it was a place for the criminal to undertake penance, reflect on their failures, and come out as a reformed member of society).
@@jrggrop Quakers also invented solitary confinement- the idea being the prisoner would take the time to read the bible and become a better person- instead they suffered extreme psychological damage (humans aren't built to handle isolation, or confinement well, so being completely alone for an extended period in a tiny cell wrecks havock on one's psyche)- so much so that they stoped doing it because of how inhumane it turned out to be- today we have not only brought back this torturous practice, but expanded on it- Supermaxprisons are prisons made solely of solitary confinement cells, for profit institutions using a model of imprisonment known to cause insanity, on a mass scale.
Well, if you just execute them all, they can't learn to become better criminals.
So for profit prisons donât work. Gee, I hope we never repeat tha.
Oh.
Oh.
Iâm sure it will work great if we try just one last timeđ
Nice pic of BB64
LG COC The Lagging Offencoch thanks, took that at least a decade ago on an old flip phone
TORIES WOULD LIKE TO
HAVE A WORD WITH YOU
It provides wonderful services to the low wages sector.
You know, by pricing out the people who can't live off a prisoners salary.
Because pricing out the lower class workers with slavery has always been successful in the past yea?
EC: (describes pickpockets taking advantage of crowds watching an execution)
Me: (gets a Skyrim flashback)
Been pilfering the Solitude execution?
@@insaincaldo Absolutely
@@storyspren Seems quite obvious. Then again my last member of the guild had a really short run and pretty much only did it for the armor, thought It would be a cool starting armor on a Van Helsing like character.
Storyspren sneak behind the rocks at the winking sleeved. Put poison on your bow. Take one shot and kill the headsman. Run in unrelenting force the guards and hack them to death with your sword. Take there loot kill all witnesses and join the stormcloaks.
Pickpocket 100
This is hilarious and I canât believe I never learned about this in school.
They don't teach you about it because they don't want you to know about the shitty prisons
this is actually a case study in my gcse history course.
I can believe it!~ Man, wouldn't it suck if you learned the society you lived in was inherently exploitative?
@@baconpantsable shitty government*
To be fair, there's an awful lot of history to learn in just the three years of a GCSE course. Teachers need to decide what they think is best to teach*.
*unless the likes of Gove decide that learning the names of all the monarchs is the most important.
My favorite part of Extra History is how they switch the art style every series.
One favorite art style of mine is that one from Genghis Khan.
I guess they usually do it to make the other two/three artists recover. I guess that art for a whole series takes about a whole 2 months to do without crunching (and if nothing else happens). So I think that they work on this time, while the other is starting the next series, and the other one or two waits to be called up again.
If true, it seems fantastic.
7:03 â@@va960
And I laughed so hard in the PC-game Thief: "Thief-Taker-General? Oh, c'mon, got no other title to give this guy? Did you had to make it so artificial, just to explain his hate against Garret (the thief)?"
Yes titles for British positions used to have names that would be laughable today
I just get the felling this is going to be Matt's "south seas bubble" series. which I consider to be the Best Extra Histroy short series
South Seas Bubble wasnât a short series.
Same
This was actually happening at the same time as South Sea.
One of Patrician's greatest contributions to the reliable operation of Ankh-Morpork had been, very early in his administration, the legalizing of the ancient Guild of Thieves.
Crime was always with us, he reasoned, and therefore,
if you were going to have crime, it atleast should be organized crime.
This explains so much about Anglo-american culture... it also makes a great tabletop plot!
Very interesting learning some of the history that inspired the Discworld books.
Oh, you have to read Pratchett's "Dodger". en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodger_(novel)
I assume we'll meet Robert Peel later in this series, and he's a character in the novel, along with Charles Dickens and other famous Victorians.
sunsparkda Assassins and thieves got lots of benefits during Vetinari's government. Paying to not get your properties stolen, and the thieves get government permission. That is scary.
@@arturoreyescortez2476 But thievery is also regulated via the Guild- who rather efficently sells protection against non-guild-members and you are protected against being robbed more than once a month.
If you are robbed, you get the adequate paperwork and the robbery is done in a more civil manner, and for Ankh-Morpork, thats certainly an improvement in crime statistics.
Also, it realistically heightens the security for the citizens compared to how the City Watch acted before the revolution.
The thieves have an interest in keeping crime professional and keeping the crime rate down in order to protect the trade and their profits.
That was why they only needed 3 guys in the watch until the dragon incident, in its own way compared to before the city got along just fine.
The assassins themselves have agreed upon a no-kill list if they decide a target isnt worth it- they gave up on killing our favourite protagonist Commander because he was to important for the cities ecosystem- and besides a certain gentleman in Hogfather, the patrician was once their most dangerous member anyway. Remember, thats how he got the position in the first place ;)
Vetinari didnt make the guilds exist, they were, as there were no rules, more dangerous before he showed up.
He made them operate in legal guidelines, chained their interests to the interest of the city and therefore made them controllable until he could let Sam build the New City Watch. Thats called pragmatism. Fighting fire with fire. If you cant fight the crime because its a bushfire, make it self-regulate and burn itself out until you have the ressources to stamp the rest out yourself. If you want to, that is.
Pratchett wrote interesting satire about the legal system and the states role in fighting crime. Rigid militarised crime codes focusing on "law and order" often may not be able to cope with the amount of crime existent and only bring harm to the innocent. Community policing combined with the adequate ressources wont stop the mafia due to inevitable corruption- but it at least keeps general street crime at bay, therefore protecting more normal people, and keeps the gears of the community turning until you can controll it because it shifts the crime from an economic factor into the hands of a few individuals. Pratchett is basically describing the setup of a working community police force under those conditions that slowly replaces the corruption by creating a power outside of professional crime fighting crime by creating stability first, to make people want to live by rules and protect them.
Note that this system is an semi-utopia run by an infallable dictator with assassin education and a demon-possessed super cop, though. Applicability to real live may vary.
@@arturoreyescortez2476 Lord Vetinari is a scary man in general: "I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are good people and bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides."
@@Rainbowthewindsage early Vetinari is scary because he is depresed. That speech is a diagnosis. He lost faith in people so je doesn't give a damn if he's brutal. Fortunatelly he gets better later.
Hitchen: "Wild is a thief!"
Wild: "Hitchen is gay."
Everyone: *la gasp*
Me: *wheeze*
You Laugh now, but it was deadly serious. Emphasis on 'deadly'.
'The Georgian era is a period in British history from 1714 to c. 1830-37.'
'United Kingdom
From 1533 the capital felony for any person to "commit the detestable and abominable vice of buggery with mankind or beast", was repealed and re-enacted several times, until it was reinstated in 1563 remaining unchanged until 1861.[25] The last execution took place on 27 November 1835 when James Pratt and John Smith were hanged at Newgate.'
Homosexuality carried the death sentence.
Bloodlyshiva Oh
Hitchen: tries to end wildâs whole career.
Wild: iâm aboutta end this manâs whole career.
Hitchen: Youâre done for Wilde
Wilde: *pulls out uno reverse card*
4:46 âthe intricate language of Londonâs underworldâ
Oi mate, the lads and us is going for a spot of cheeky Nandoâs. Sounds nice innit?
"prisons in georgian britain were run for profit"
USA: *sweats nervously* haha, glad we had that revolution to get out from tyranny heh
To keep slaves.
@@JoshSweetvale
Not really.
Joshua Sweetvale they ran the prisons for profit because of slaves or started the revolutionary war because of slaves
Gotta say that the English of the 18th century were wise beyond their years, believing that "Professional police were an inherently repressive and militarized organization." The problem is that in America, too many see "inherently repressive and militarized" as a good thing.
Would...would you have preferred petty crime to be handled by mafiosi like what was shown in this video? These are the kinds of scandals that cause governments to implement the police in the first place.
Oh yeah, militarized police are so bad. Im sure that a guy with a stab proof vest and a glock would be just as effective at dealing with hostage situations as a swat team
SaltpeterTaffy they werenât militarised though.
â@@Tom-2142 Non-militarized criminals are still criminals.
â@Tom-2142 well criminals are now with Cartels and Gangs having access to some very impressive hardware. Part of why I support cops AND having the 2A
This sounds like the premise for a TV series, not gonna lie.
Last time I was this early, it hadn't been Walpole.
Man, Wild was W I L D. I can't believe we had a real-life House of Cards + GoT Bronn at some point and nobody ever told me.
One minute in and I can tell this is going to be another good one :D
"Oh so ill just make people steal things, then get the stolen things back?"
"This is a good idea"
Edit: also wild was in deubt, but has these awesome clothes
That's more for the consistency of the animation than realistic depiction
But my question: did this ever work into the South Sea Company?
Doubt it. The what Wilde maange is blue collar crime. Unsophisticated, violent and for the dregs of society. The whole South Sea Bubble is classic white collar shenanigans. Same like today. People went to jail for potential decades for break ins and theft while only one unlucky wall street schmuck gets prosecuted for literally giving the trillions of dollars global economy a heart attack because greed and big bonuses.
The Void Looks Pretty Iâm sure it was Walpole.
Every series is connected.
Well, Wildes's reign happened during the same time as the South Sea Bubble.
I swear, you guys come up with the most amazing and interesting things in history to talk about. Never ceases to amaze me.
@5:56 you are telling me that at one point in time, there was a rude group of scoundrels that called " the mathematicians"
I mean... math is kind of the embodiment of Evil
đšđ«đ
"What's the pythagorian thereom?"
This is some oceans eleven type stuff being pulled off.
I am loving all these Extra History series y'all are making. I'm super excited for this one!
Wilde: is a mob boss
Society:đżđżđżđż
Hitchen: is gay
Society:đĄđĄđĄ
0:18 *_THAT'S CSLLED FORESHAFIWING_*
Yee the mug said âbest crime bossâ lol
Someone's going to find a lot of inspiration for persona 5 OCs/fanfics in this series.
tenlosol more like place ideas
One of my favorite Extra History episodes in a while! Great job to all involved! (:
London has some fascinating history, can't wait to see the rest of the series
Thanks to Extra Credits for digging up such rarely known but most interesting stories.
I love it and i want to see more of it.
this has to be one of the most interesting people you have ever talked about. Really looking forward to the other episodes
I love the wacky Extra Histories on stuff I've barely heard of like this and the South Sea Co.
Which was actually happening at the same time as this, funnily enough.
This first episode perfectly represents a life that goes according to plan. This guy, in this first episode, basically did everything perfectly and lived the good life. Honestly, he wasn't bad, he was just taking advantage of the situation, and inteligently too.
This has got to be my favorite extra history series, I have seen it so many times
Incredible some of the major figures Iâve simply never heard of. Rapidly falling in love with this channel .
4:10 imagine your prison system is so regressive that it's run in the same way as London in the 1700s
USA #1!
Ineffective community policing and hangings for people stealing silverware, debtors prisons? Doesn't sound like America to me, we don't even execute rapists anymore we just give then 3-month sentences and let them go.
"Wild."
".... Shepherd."
Great episode, you guys always put out interesting content for us, thanks for all your hard work!
im going to me honest, this is by far one of my favorite serise from you, ive watched it so much its defietly my favorite, good work yall!
HE HAS CONTROL OF THE CRIMINALS AND THE COURTS! HE'S TOO DANGEROUS TO BE KEPT ALIVE
I AM THE LAW
@@greekmyths8804 NOT. YET.
Wild: *UNLIIIIIIIMITED POWAH!!!!*
Just as I have to organize a presentation on London's crime world in the early modern period. Could you share your sources ?
Try hitting them up on Twitter. They get fewer messages there, so you're more likely to see a response.
@@NotHPotter Guess I will need to make a twitter account :(
They really should have been sharing their sources for a long time now. They sort of do with the lies episode but they need to fully list every source, it's just good practice.
I'm always on board for anything on extra credit, this, in particular, strikes me as exciting!
I can already tell this is gonna be a good one
That lesson about professional police needs to be learned again.
I remember reading about "The Beggar's Opera" (the source material of the "Threepenny Opera"). The opera actually talks about and satirizes this (since it was written three years after Jonathan Wild's death).
Amazing video, the quality of the animation only gets better everytime! đđ€âš
Good job extra history! I subbed:)
In A Song of Ice and Fire (Game of Thrones), it is explained that this is how Varys and Illyrio started their career : Varys stole, and Illyrio "retrieved". This way, they buildt a criminal kingdom in Pentos.
5:07 Swipper no swiping
The lead up to the ending hook was masterfully crafted. Well done writer.
omg, this is fascinating. This is an instant classic extra-history topic.
"inherently repressive and militarized organization." totally different from now! right?
Yes. The police force is not 'inherently' repressive and militarized. It's just that having a repressive and militarized police force is the best thing for the nobles.
This whole thing just sounds like modern day america.
im so glad i found you oversimplified left a hole in my heart u filled
One of the best episodes in a long time
I actually really need this for my crime and punishment history paper
Wait... so are you saying that if you don't have a police force, you get more crime? This was released only six months ago, and it's already revolutionary.
You guys are always a couple months behind my essay schedule đ I've just finished my policing course at uni
We love this series!
Sounds like a much better plot for Assassin's Creed: Syndicate
9:32 Homophobic prejudices aside, Hitchens' expression there is strangely hilarious.
Brilliant video!
Finally story I've been looking for.
That was an intense episode! Holy cow!
Even Walpole could get a lesson or two with John Wilde!
I think this took place during that event. Also what is with England having people named John who are amazing thieves/con men/politicians.
@@BlueflameKing1 - As a guess? John is historically a common name.
This was happening at the same time as that and in the same cityâŠ
Captivating.
Canât wait for part 2 omgggg
I had never heard of this guy, this is amazing.
Hey guys. I am a big fan of yours. Especially the history episodes like Ned Kelly, Jonathan Wild and many more.
I was wondering if you could cover the history of some of my favourite artists. I know you may not do this usually, but I like the way you interpret history with humour. So: here's a list of my favourite artists:
King Crimson
Pink Floyd
Genesis (including Peter Gabriel era)
KISS
Led Zeppelin
YES
Simon And Garfunkel
And of course: Queen
Much appreciated. :)
They need to make an HBO series on this
Policing london and the bubble are by far my favorite... series of five episodes? Of extra history (mostly because i havent watched this channel in a WHILE
Why isnt there a movie about this?
Extra Credits i love you for all these little stories you find and tell us.
If you would like a fantastic look into this topic, The Baroque cycle by Neal Stephenson touches upon it with great detail. Its also the book series that got me into my history degree and is my favorite series ever. Even covers more topics Extra History has done as well, from the siege of Vienna to paper money and so on.
When you have fun listening about London and Britain great messups and realise one is happening right now
This was a Wild ride from start to finish
Awesome stuff!
As per your usual fare!
âSir, it appears our head of security itâs corrupt and taking bribes.â
âEh, donât worry about.â
âHe is also gay, sir.â
âGET THIS GUY OFF OF OUR STREETS!!!â
7:34 actually sounds like a very reasonable distribution of wealth. Thieves would only bother stealing from the rich, and only the rich would bother to pay the fee for expensive trinkets. Thus it becomes a sort of nonconsensual charity program.
Wow this video is enlightening.
whoever did the art for this episode did an amazing job! xD Loved it. Cute Cartoony
This is by far the most interesting ep in a long time. I love corrupt Europe.
9:23 Ah, I see, one of the very few times in history where the phrase 'Consider the benefits of homophobia' has done any good
_"If you shoot enough bullets, at least some of them are bound to hit!"_
_"...even if you killed thousands of innocents..."_
And even when the person doing good is worse than the person he is going against
This is an absolutely fascinating and utterly horrible period of History... although, I guess that applies to pretty much all of History.
!! That Actraiser ditty is a great touch.
Jonathan Wild, the most badass double agent history ever known.