Sleep physician Daniel Erichsen talks about paradoxical insomnia. A common form of insomnia where actual and perceived sleep duration are very different.
I had this for a couple of years actually. Like zero sleep unless its the weekends. You feel the breeze. Your senses seem awake. But I don't feel tired at all.
Part of it is being consumed with thoughts of insomnia... You fall asleep... you dream... and you're dreaming that you're in bed laying awake... I've had this happen 7 or 8 times that I can remember... When I wake up, I realize that I was dreaming about not being able to sleep, generally because I recognize something about the dream that wasn't real... such as dreaming that my bed was half way inside the shower in my bathroom, which was about 10 times bigger in my dream than my bathroom actually is... This is a test that I always use to determine how much sleep I've had... I think back to what I was experiencing during my time in bed, and recognize the difference between a "full blown" dream, and merely a "semiconscious" state... Sometimes it's hard to tell, because when you're in a "light sleep" state, your thoughts are diffuse and only 'make sense" during that very state... when you come out of the state, into full consciousness, you realize the inconsequent nature of your thoughts, in that "dream-like" state. I suspect that often times people who think that don't sleep, are actually falling asleep and dreaming that they're still awake!
This is exactly what I have when I'm in a hyper aroused state. I watch videos to calm myself, falling asleep to those videos frequently and waking up frequently, always wondering; what is the video talking about?? I was awake all the time so why have I no clue about what has been said in the video before? Also i feel like I only slept for 10 Minutes when it was actually an hour. Sometimes i dream to not sleep but Sometimes I dont even realize I had dreamed until I really think about it and suddenly remember there was a dream (so there must have been sleep). This is completely messed up but actually i LOVE this phenomenon because its such a great tool for fighting insomnia. When the real bad anxiety is kicking in with thoughts like "I will never sleep again" "I have FFI" etc, I always calm myself with this pseudoinsomnia. I just think; well you go to bed tonight and even if you feel like you dont sleep, after all you dont know!
Someone recently made a very similar great point. Even if you're not sure whether you slept or not, you can try to look at the glass half full. I probably slept! Or even, if that's possible, ignore the glass completely, that's when you really start sleeping well! Thanks Lea for this comment!
Yes!! Catching up on all of your videos and they are fantastic!! This happens to me when I'm stressed about sleep. I think I haven't fallen asleep and after an hour or two I get up frustrated and anxious from not sleeping. I'll get out of bed and sit on the couch and sometimes I've even taken benadryl while waiting to get drowsy and then it will hit me!! I had a dream of the REM variety... Spooky. I'm starting CBT-I again and not sure how to sleep log or when to get out of bed. I usually guess that if it's been more than an hour and I'm in the same position I have probably been sleeping. I haven't heard much about this problem, though. Of note, as soon as I realize that I've had an REM type dream I calm down and sleep deeper.
your videos are great! Thank you so much!! Also, today you replied to me about my comments to Catherine, thank you for taking extra time to respond! So using the app snorelab lately has shown me that I am sleeping (as I am snoring), but I feel like I haven't slept at all. In fact I feel literal pain because of exhaustion, then I land up taking more melatonin and sublinox because I thought I wasn't sleeping, then I am super sleepy in the am. I am wondering if that painful exhaustion feeling is because I am not sleeping deeply at all? Is there a way to get into deep sleep more quickly?
Dayna Kliachik Thanks for the encouragement Dayna 🤗!! Snorelab is a cool app, I’ve used it myself! And it seems in your case to confirm what you thought - you do sleep but you feel really unrefreshed. This is a not uncommon, meaning, someone has no big and obvious sleep issue (they’re not snoring tons/stop breathing, they’re not having active insomnia) and just still feel tired. Often taking a nap/sleeping less or more doesn’t make a difference. When the above is the case, then most often the insight is - Sleep isn’t the culprit. It’s not lack of sleep or lack of a certain sleep stage or poor quality sleep that’s the reason for the fatigue. This may seem really disappointing, because you of course want to feel better during the day. But it can save you from lots of troubles. I’ve seen so many times how someone goes through a bunch of supplements or hacks or gadgets to sleep better and just end up becoming frustrated that nothing works and even start having real insomnia issues because they’re trying so much to improve their sleep quality! So if this is the case, what to do? I’ve found the most common culprits being a job that’s not stimulating, something else that keeps you from being excited about getting up, sometimes lack of physical activity. And when focus shifts towards having a better day, despite the fatigue, little by little, things get better. How do you feel the above applies to you Dayna? And but the way, how much did you snore, was it Epic?
hii, okay so for the last 5 years i’ve struggled with anxiety and insomnia. it normally takes me a very long time to fall asleep but i do eventually fall asleep for a certain amount of hours. today or this morning however, i’ve had a very bizzare experience. at about 2am this morning i was in bed finally getting tired, and i was rlly worried about smth so i prayed as i normally do trying to release my worries to The Lord. anyways, after praying i felt rlly sleepy, i checked the time and then put down my phone, and tried to sleep, i put the blanket over my head bc i was a bit cold, and then recall thinking, i was thinking and worrying about things and i feel like i was thinking for maybe 20-60 mins, then i started to feel smth like light outside the blanket which was bothering me bc i felt like i was finally going to go to sleep, so i took the blanket from off my head thinking my phone light was on, only for their t be light shining outside my window, birds chirping and it’s 7:00 am. i’m literally shaking rn searching up what this could be, the most freakiest thing is that i don’t even feel that tired/capable of going back to sleep but my eyes are stinging a little. i dont remember sleeping at all and i don’t think this has really ever happened to me before, the most similar experience i’ve had od this was at a sleep study. i was awake the entire night at the sleep study but then the nurse told me noo u did sleep. which sounds IMPOSSIBLE. bc i was tossing and turning awake ans thinking. i’m 17.
Hi GIG! Glad you found the channel after so mid struggle! You know, check Insomnia insight #322 I think you’ll find it very helpful. And also just spend some time reading comments and learning. You do really well when you understand what’s happening!!
How do you lower your hyperarousal when it comes to paradoxical insomnia? I actually worry during the day despite getting somewhat light sleep. It’s perplexing I feel miserable in the morning but great at night.
Hi J, You know I think it helps much to look at hyperarousal as a signal from the brain. A signal to look out for some potential danger. And regardless of what that fear is, whether in the context of paradoxical insomnia or not, hearing the signal is what makes the brain feel less need to send this signal. Let’s review this below! First just a comment on why it’s so common to feel miserable in the morning - it’s because that’s when the self criticism and sense that one is damaged or that something is wrong happens. The analysis of the night, the “why can’t I sleep”, “what’s wrong with me?” etc, this self critical habit and thinking one failed or couldn’t achieve something… it makes us feel miserable.. And self kindness makes us feel light like in the night. - Our brains communicate with us using various signals. Worry thoughts are signals intended to make us safe from a potential threat. Anxiety is a signal that there’s something we should look out for that may potentially hurt us. Pain signals to us that we are getting hurt and we should do something to avoid harm. All our emotions and physical sensations are signals. Now there’s never anything wrong with the signal itself. For example if someone is afraid of spiders, the fear is totally appropriate, because the brain thinks that there’s a real threat. Now what happens often however is that we start looking at the signals as the problem, not seeing that it’s the confusion that is what we should look at! For example, we may start to think that anxiety (a signal) is something that we shouldn’t have so much of. Then what happens is that we try to get away from this signal, which to the brain means… we aren’t hearing the signal! What does the brain do when we aren’t hearing? It sends more of the signal! Now the question becomes this - the signals often are very unpleasant (which is of course the point!) so how to have less signal? It’s to show the brain that we hear the signal. We do this by being willing to experience the discomfort without judgement, without trying to make it stop, just acknowledging it without action. When the brain sees that we are hearing the signal, it stops signaling! So how can we listen in practical reality? Here are three ways! 1 Thought download Write your thoughts and feelings down for 10 minutes daily at a specific time. With no intention but to show the brain we are listening. This can really give the brain an outlet and you can find that it starts postponing warning you until this time. 2 Going there in the mind Imagine the scenario the brain is trying to warn you about. This is a bit scary, but really shows that you’re listening! For example if the brain says “what if I you get fired?” then you can imagine this in detail. The call from your boss, leaving the work place etc. When we are willing to experience something if even just in our minds, then the brain sees that we listen. 3 The Aha method I think this is very practical and effective. When you have a stressful thought you go “Aha! My brain is trying to warn be about losing my job. I see what’s happening here” or “Aha! My bear is racing, that’s normal and expected when there’s some fear!” Literally any thoughts or emotions or physical sensations of hyperarousal can be met with an “Aha!”. It’s a very practical way of listening.
Hi Daniel I think I have this as my sleep app picks me up snoring at various times. But the alarm test does not work for me I wake up when I set the volume to low. So not sure if I am really sleeping when I snore?
Hi MM, You know I think what always helps is learning about ourselves. Are we using a snoring recording app to have some control or figure it out so we can sleep better? If so, we can see that we perhaps have created a sleep effort which is what leads to trouble sleeping… it’s when we abandon searching for the answer and control that peace and peaceful sleep happens 😊 And I don’t think we can snore when we are awake!
Hi daniel last night something strange happened to me yesterday I got to the stage where I couldn't take anymore so I took sleeping medication at 4PM and went to bed all the time I was tossing and turning all the time but this time it was like I started into rem/dream but everytime this happened I woke this happened many many time during the night it was horrible. I have heard that if you have been sleep deprived then you go straight in to rem what does this all mean. I can never go into deep sleep. I never ever feel groggy day or night I just feel worn out This torture just kept on going this is no way to live
I believe i have this type of insomnia also I’m having difficulties socializing like how i used to could this be a part of that? And does cbti really works?
Hi Daniel can you tell me when do you know if paradoxical insomnia is "improving". It seems to me that although there are nights where I don't sleep at all and some nights it is paradoxical all the time. recently although I still take medication feel that the more I become less aware of this paradoxical insomnia and although I seem to be still waking up around 2am, i feel more exhausted ., yawning and my eyes are aching. Do you ever "catch" up with your sleep debt. It seems to me that you are in a catch 22 any advice?
Hi Kevin, yes it’s tricky... I think it gets particularly entangling when you kind of look at improvement as sleeping more... because how would you know when you’re not even sure you slept! So I think it’s when we become less interested... it sounds kind of odd but when you’re no longer interested, that’s improvement! You see how when you delegate sleep, when you’re not trying so much because you delegate the work to a medication, you’re les aware of the paradoxical insomnia. Same thing, when you’re not so interested, it doesn’t bother you. How to become less interested? Education! Let’s review some things that can help! When you look at objective studies of how people sleep you find the following. People who report no trouble sleeping sleep about six hours but estimate sleeping seven hours. People who report having trouble sleeping on average reports sleeping about five hours but actually sleep about six hours. So as you can see, everyone has some sleep state perception. Everyone has some inaccuracies estimating how much they sleep! When it comes to those who have trouble sleeping, they underestimate how much they sleep. That is completely expected and a typical part of having trouble sleeping. Now, when this underestimation becomes the dominant way you experience insomnia, we call this paradoxical insomnia. Here’s the important thing, there’s nothing different between “ordinary insomnia” and paradoxical insomnia apart from how you experience it. They are both caused by hyper arousal, they are both caused by focusing a lot on sleep and doing things to sleep more etc. And knowing this can be really helpful. Because the more you think of your trouble sleeping as strange and unusual, the more power it will have over you and the more difficult it will be to get to the other side. The more you think of your trouble sleeping as ordinary, the easier it will be to get to a place where you sleep great!
Hi Daniel. Just wondering if this is normal for insomniacs. I no longer feel that tired, heavy feeling anymore ever since having panic attacks and being super worried about sleep. Last night I tossed and turned for what seemed like hours. Had multiple vivid dreams so I know that I must’ve slept somewhat. Saw that the sun went up then went back to sleep for another 1 or 2 hours. So weird.
Hi Natalina, sorry of course about the struggle but you know, this is indeed very common. Hyperarousal masks so many things like fatigue… hang in there
I have been having this for three weeks (triggered by a few days of jet lag which caused sleep anxiety). I ended up getting diagnosed with OCD because the fear of sleeping - or rather NOT sleeping causes me anxiety all day. I think about it, research it, talk about it all the time. I wake up every 2 hours or so, super anxious, and look at my watch. When I do sleep it feels like a trance-like state where I am aware of my surroundings and my body. It feels like I am awake but just deeply spaced out. I do have dreams though. I don’t feel like I deep sleep for more than maybe 20 minutes-1 hour. My main fear is that I am not sleeping so therefore my mind will deteriorate and go crazy, and my body won’t be able to take it anymore. I am constantly monitoring myself for symptoms of sleep deprivation, and if I feel fatigued or dizzy I panic. I feel like the anxiety is blowing this all out of proportion, but honesty just one night of regular sleep I feel like would cure the entire anxiety. My questions are: any tips to stopping paradoxical insomnia? also, is it dangerous? like is it causing severe sleep deprivation that will make you go crazy?
Hi Katherine, I would say what really helps is education. When we understand that paradoxical insomnia is just another experience of hyperarousal, but it’s not from any other place than any other insomnia, this helps so so much. When we try to stop insomnia, we have more of it. It’s like trying to stop a friend who has a message for you, they just try even harder. So yes, spend a little time learning about insomnia, and I think you’ll see the struggle fade!
@@tafriovie844 It’s been two years since the sleep anxiety started for me & i hate to say, I still struggle with it. it’s much better, but i eventually needed a Klonopin prescription for bedtimes. I take it as needed (roughly twice a month nowadays). At this point, instead of crippling anxiety at night, it’s more of an uneasy/nervousness. I wish the day would come where sleep just feels natural like it used to. Good luck!
It's so strange. Last night, I literally felt that I was lying awake in bed, floating in and out of some vague dreamlike hallucinations, but very much awake for all but 2 hours or so. I would feel myself slipping out of that vague state when I hear a noise and assume that I've been awake the entire time. The night before, I know I was out for 7 hours but the night before that? I would have sworn to you - I watched the entire night go by without *any* sleep! So how am I able to function right now?
Hello! I've been having a problem with sleep for almost a month now and I don't know what to do anymore. I lay down to sleep, close my eyes and try to relax. It is kinda difficult but I do relax and reach the stage where my thoughts slowly turn into a dream. BUT then I become aware that the dream started and I return back to wake state even though my eyes are still closed. And this happens over and over, the dream just disappears as soon as I'm aware it has started and my heart stars beating. This has become so frustrating that I now feel stressed about going to sleep every night, and that alone is not very helpful. I tried everything, breathing techniques, mindful meditation, drinking chamomile tea, going to sleep at the same time every night etc etc. But the problem is not about not being sleepy or able to relax, the problem is that I'm aware when the dream starts and return back to the wake state instantly. I thought about visiting a psychiatrist but I don't like the idea of drinking medicaments. How can this be solved? Please help🙏 Thank you in advance
Hi Laseryy! Sorry to be reading about the struggle you’ve had lately but I’m glad that you are here and thank you for sharing! Much of what you described here sounds like what we call hypnic awareness. You can learn more about it in this playlist below. I hope this will really help. Hypnic jerks, hypnic awareness and other common issues. czcams.com/play/PL6RQ1GS7B1ci1B__oGwLvLaJ9Da1lmIKs.html But I think you could also help if you would like to send this to open class where we can go over things more detail. There’s a lot here to go over like sleep efforts and sensations of anxiety as well as the frustration that comes from not “being able” to control things that no human can control! If you would like to you can send this message or another message to the link below and I will reply in an Open class episode. You can also just spend some time here and learn and I think things will become much more clear! Hang in there! www.thesleepcoachschool.com/have-questions
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 Thank you for replying! I really appreciate it. I will check out the links that you've shared and research some more about this, especially about hypnic state. Take care! 😊
Hello sir Daniel! I finally found the right video/struggle that I’ve been through for a month now. I now know that I have a Paradoxical Insomnia! I have one question and I hope I can get a response from you. Is this possible to overcome without CBTI? If so, what can I do so that I can gradually overcome this Paradoxical Insomnia. Because not everyone can afford CBTI especially for those unfortunate people like me. I am really looking forward to your responses.
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 Thank you for immediate response sir Daniel. I’ve known a lot of people here in my country suffering insomnia and I always recommend your channel to guide them at least how to deal with this.
I was diagnosed with having chronic insomnia. My doctor told me that I should go to the mental hospital for my insomnia. Now I know that I suffered from paradoxical insomnia. I ended taking antipsychotics for myself not sleeping. This was the main reason why I was urged for hospitalization. I missed three months of sleep. I felt inferior because I couldn’t count by three backwards. I guess that I had trouble with my mind because I missed a ridiculous amount of sleep. It means that I slept zero hours a day.
Hi Laurie and welcome to the channel. Sorry to hear what happened but glad you’re in a better place. Thanks so much for this comment and please stay in touch!
Hi Nocturnal! This sounds like what we call time traveling. Here’s some teaching on time traveling: When you fall asleep but still have some hyperarousal, you often wake up without even having noted that you fell asleep. I think of it like this: Your brain has started to think that being awake is a threat that it needs to protect you from. But sometimes, like a soldier standing guard, it can lose focus on the threat and sleep happens. Which is very embarrassing it thinks! The brain is embarrassed, and therefore you wake up quickly (you may not even notice waking up), and then it creates a story that you were never asleep. The brain is trying to cover up what happened! The most important thing to know is this is completely expected and nothing unusual! As you keep learning and asking questions (like now!) the hyperarousal will fade away and then these experiences will too! Now for a lot of people it is reassuring to know that when you think you slept, you did! In fact you probably slept a whole lot more than you estimate. And remember, sleeping should never be a goal because then it becomes hard sleep, so we shouldn’t celebrate sleeping a certain amount - but it can be good to know that you slept more than it seemed you because that just shows that nothing is wrong with you! - Hope this helps!
I've had this for 2 and half years. I wanted to ask is it normal to sort of dream your awake? The way I found out is by telling my parents I was awake all night. They tood me I wasn't but I protested that I even picked up my phone and read the time which was 3:43 am. This was two years ago though. Now I don't remember most or any of what happened last night. I just wnated to know if I'm ok? Thank you for this video it's relieving to finnaly know what is going on.
Hi Leila, I’m so glad you found the channel! And yes this is a very common experience, I call if hyper sleep. Let’s take a look! - Hyper sleep is when your sleep is infused with hyperarousal. It’s like driving a car with the brake pushed down. Sleep drive and hyperarousal are both present and you can have vivid, bizarre dreams, you can’t tell if you were awake or you slept, you spent the whole night in superficial sleep state or that you time travelled (time skips ahead but you’re not sure you slept). The first thing to know is that hyper sleep is super common and a part of the journey. Nothing strange or unusual! It’s again simply some hyperarousal making sleep superficial. Secondly, you sleep more than it seems when you have hyper sleep! Just knowing this can often be reassuring. Most importantly, when you know the above and don’t respond, just let it be so to speak, these experiences fade along with the hyperarousal. - Hyperarousal simply means when we are in some excited state like anxious or curious. For example, many have hyper sleep when they have to catch a 4 am flight. So yes it’s very normal. It can go on when the brain is kinda confused and has thought that being awake is dangerous or that something odd is happening, but when we learn and the hyperarousal fades, then we experience sleeping and feeling like we slept!
Hello Daniel, I was wondering about paradoxical insomnia as I seem to have more of that lately... I think I understand what it is, but I am confused because I am experiencing this thing right before I wake up every night recently... I feel almost awake and asleep at the same time. Not sleep paralysis, my eyes are closed, I can't hear things happening in the room, and I don't see anything in my room like hallucinations, however I have these very vivid dreams and I feel as if I'm awake and I guess very aware of the dream. Not so much aware that I'm dreaming more aware of everything in the dream... Like people's voices and images are very clear. I heard this is a normal part of REM sleep to experience this momentarily while waking. I read about hypnopompic sleep but the more I read about it, it doesn't sound like that's what's happening. I'm also not sure how long this lasts and it makes me wonder if I'm technically asleep at all? Also if this is something that happens with paradoxical insomnia? I have lots of anxiety which I know can cause vivid dreams. I worry that this is all hurting my health too but I know that insomnia doesn't cause any health issues. I'm just confused overall. I hope I wasn't too confusing with my comment, it's hard to describe what I'm trying to say. I have gotten some wonderful reassurance from your channel and also want to say thank you so very much.
Hi Stephanie! I’m very glad to read that you found reassurance here :-)! And you know what you describe it was very common. I might have already tipped you off of that episode 312 and 322. They both cover the subject. I call this hyper sleep. Basically when you are hyper aroused your senses are heightened so you often hear or see or take note of things that you wouldn’t otherwise. This makes dreams feel more vivid and more real. So when you have what I call “hyper sleep”, it’s very common that you have vivid, bizarre dreams, that you can’t tell if you were awake or you slept, or that you time travelled. Sometimes it feels that you just skipped ahead! Nothing unusual! And when you just do the work of educating yourself and applying all the teaching in this channel and you become less hyper aroused, you have less of that hyper sleep!
IDoc I have a question, can you sleep without getting deep or rem sleep. Cause when I sleep and wake up I feel like I haven’t slept at all (not feeling refreshed)
Insomnia Insight with Daniel Erichsen usually got to bed 10:30 or 11:00 (it usually take me 25 minutes to fall asleep) and wake up 7:30 or 8:00 I also wake up 2 times during the night like 3 and 6 am(it’s consistent for some odd reason ).
Hey daniel❤ i want to ask something .I am in the stage that i am sleeping well and the hyperarousal went away but even tho i am still thinking what if i dont sleep every day ,like my mind stuck to this thought.i still thinking if sleepness affects the things i wamt to do(i dont do them for now) but i still sleeping well . HOW these thoughts will fade away? I sleep but my mind doesnt seem to unsderstand that !!!
Hi there! Yes, you’ve found something common, sleeping well but still having insomnia, because when our days are dominated by fear of not sleeping, I think this is insomnia even if we sleep at night. To me, this is an invitation to see that it’s not about sleep, but about fear… and as impossible as it sounds, when we are willing to be scared, then our fear of fear (which drives the struggle) fades, and insomnia fades with it
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 so what can I do ? I must be awake ? Or I must just keep continue my days and just leave these thoughts there ?? Thank u Daniel your work is great !! And one last question you think I am sleeping because my body is calm ?
@CatCat-vs5wv I’d say this, sleep happens by itself when we aren’t trying to force it - so it’s the “must” that keeps us from sleeping well. When we no longer think it requires anything, then things get easier. And we sleep more than we think when we have insomnia, but to try to monitor this, and to know how much, that’s tricky!
Hi daniel with this paradoxical insomnia I know that I sleep now but when you describe it as light sleep and then awake What seems to be happening is that i hey to a stage where i start to dream then i wake up this happens all night it like the brain says dont go there it's dangerous hence i wake up (so i dont get any deep sleep)how on earth do you get out of that one Also with sleep apnoea what is the best way to help yourself without medical intervention
Hi Kevin! You know what you describe is more like hyper-sleep or vivid dream sleep. Check out episodes 302 and 322 that cover these experiences and how to get to a place where you sleep more soundly. As for sleep apnea, weight loss typically helps, oral appliances are pretty effective too. Hope this helps!
I was just told I have this -PI, but ib don't feel I fit the description. Many nights I do fall into a deeper sleep and I am aware. Many other nights, I lay there for my 7-8 hours and do not sleep a wink. I am aware, I feel the hours passing. But on those nights I meditate and I can bring myself into a very relaxed, still, focused breathing state. It's like yoga nidra. I'm still there. If you said my name, or I played the alarm, I would hear it. Others have whispered are you awake and I'm always very clear voiced and aware in my yes, wide awake, what's up reply. On these nights, in the morning I often feel groggy and a bit sad that time for sleeping is over. I'm tired throughout the day and I feel like I am able to rally on the energy front. I often spend the whole morning thinking about just wanting to crawl back to bed that evening. However this exhaustion is very distinctly different from a night when I'm fully awake and unable to get to the meditative state. Those days I feel asleep deprived entirely and cannot focus, may nap out of necessity and will sleep deeply (unconscious) and I try not to because I'm less likely to sleep at night again if I nap, etc etc. The meditate all night sleep can happen randomly, but almost always happens in the "first night" type scenario, including when I'm camping and rode 50+ miles on my bike, or hike 12 miles with a pack. Anyway, I get the idea of thinking you slept 3 hours when you actually slept 6, but when you actually don't sleep at all.... It's hard to prove if you are intentionally still and controlling your breathing. I propose that meditation is really effective at mimicking sleep in some ways and that this does rest and restore brain function enough to get you through the day. But the idea that a machine that detects blood pressure, arterial dilation, and movement are the only components of sleep and more reliable than actual human experience is kind of comical. Remember when people were determined that homosexuality was psychological... They were handing out diagnosis like candy, but science proved otherwise. And I think there is more information at play than current science has measured. If you have any solid research studies discussing this I would love to see them. Until then, I promise that I know my body better than a blood monitor (watch pat).
Completely agree, our subjective experience, what can be more important than this? No medical advice here of course but, I completely see things the same. I do have a discussion in episode 360 you might like but we haven’t reviewed studies yet. If you find one that you’d like reviewed here, just leave another comment. Thanks for sharing and for being here!!
i had this experience before when i couldn't sleep for 3 days or at least felt like i didn't sleep. then somehow i fell asleep in my parents room and things became normal again. but it happened again and i feel like i haven't slept at all since 4 days. it feels like im just keeping my eyes shut and having a lot of thoughts but not actually sleeping. I told my mom to wake me up on an exact time because i have exams going on right now. And every time she calls me i instantly reply as if i wasnt sleeping at all. I just want to sleep normally.. i dont feel refreshed like i used to before after waking up.
Hi Taesmile, this is a very common situation that can be scary when it doesn’t make sense. Really, insomnia is just the fear of being awake. We may have a night of little sleep for example because of exams or some other stress. That’s totally expected and nobody things this is strange. But what can happen is the brain goes “oh wait, sleep didn’t happen, this is a problem”. The brain starts to think there’s a threat that can harm you. And now, now that fear is what creates insomnia. When you sleep in your parents room, it feels a bit safer and sleep happens, but you haven’t understood why you didn’t sleep in the first place so the fear is still there. So sure enough, there’s more trouble again. Seep becomes superficial and you don’t even know if you sleep. When you see this, you see that there actually isn’t any reason to be afraid... then things get back to peaceful sleep. Hang in there and good luck on your exams, let us know how things go!
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 yes i feel even more stressed when i don't get enough sleep because i think my body will feel tired from the lack of sleep and i won't be able to study properly.. so for now i'll try not to stress myself over this anymore. Hopefully things will get better with time. Thank you so much for replying!
Hi Daniel thanks again for your replies one question I would like to ask as you are aware I have paradoxical insomnia and chronic insomnia and all that goes with it now I still take medication which I am so desperate to come off of for the last few days I have started to sleep a bit better now I get up in the night to go to the toilet when I get back into bed let's say around 4 that when the paradoxical insomnia kicks in what does that mean I sill feel like I haven't slept as I feel unrefressed and drained.
Anytime Kevin thanks for being here! One thing that I think is important here is that in my thinking, paradoxical insomnia is just one way of experiencing insomnia. It is really all from the same place. People that have no trouble sleeping, they overestimate how much they sleep by about an hour on average. When you look at people who have trouble sleeping, the opposite happens, you underestimate by about an hour on average. What I want to point out there is that everyone who has trouble sleeping has some paradoxical insomnia. But when that, underestimating how much you truly sleep, feeling like you time travel and time just skips ahead, when that becomes the predominant experience, then that is called paradoxical insomnia - but it’s really just one manifestation of hyperarousal just like all insomnia! Something else that I think is important here is conflicting interests. If someone takes the medication and they’re completely OK with it there’s no problem. If someone doesn’t take any medication at all, no problem either. But when someone has these conflicting interests, when they both want to sleep well and want to not take any medication then that conflict creates a lot of tension and frustration which doesn’t help sleep. There are two ways to not have a conflict. One is to become more OK with taking the medication. The other one is not taking it. The more you pressure yourself to come off medication, the more you actually pressure yourself to sleep without it which always leads to less sleep! It is not surprising that you have more of that paradoxical insomnia later in the night. This is where you have less sleep drive so sleep is often more superficial towards the end of the night. When you feel you haven’t slept and feel unrefreshed and drained - I think it is always good to explore to what degree this is because a little sleep. Because if you think how you feel during the day is 100% related to how many hours you slept, then you will create more pressure to sleep. So it is good to do detective work.Could the fact that you are thinking so much about sleep make you tired? Could it be that you are not doing things that are challenging and enjoyable during the day? Or you’re not as physically active as you should? Are medications making you tired? The more you can point to things that are unrelated to how much you slept come out the less pressure you’ll have to sleep in the bed or you’ll sleep!
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 hi Daniel the problem is I never hey sleepy I look for something to make me sleep last night I was awake all night I try to keep busy and night I try to rest but that seems to make the hyperarousal worse So I seem I just cant win I feel so emotional and fatigue every single day I feel that I have suffered enough and I just cant take it anymore
Hi Kevin - thanks for sharing this, it is very helpful. It may not seem like it, but you’re learning a lot that I truly believe will help you. I key concept to learn is sleep efforts. As you know, the most fundamental truth when it comes to insomnia is that the more you try to sleep, the less sleep you get. And this is because sleep is a passive process. A sleep effort is anything you to do with the intent and purpose of trying to make yourself sleep or trying to protect yourself from losing sleep. When you “look for something to make me sleep” - this is a sleep effort. And the act of trying to make sleep happen - this will definitely keep you awake! This is why it feels like you can’t win, because you’re trying to win! The reason insomnia exists is that there’s this narrative in the brain that being awake or waking up are undesirable, they are threats that need to be won over. It is when you abandoned this narrative, when you see that there’s nothing to win over, that you’re fighting an imaginary adversary - that’s when magic happens. You’ll get there Kevin!!
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 as always thank you for your replies is depression one of the major causes of paradoxical insomnia and chronic insomnia or is it the other way around. I only ask because I have always maintained it was the lack of sleep that was the problem I now come to realize that it is the depression I should be tackling. I also now realize that anxiety and Depression have always been there no matter how long I sleep I guess I was in denial and that could never happen to me regards
Hi Kevin, I’d say the reason insomnia and paradoxical insomnia exist is hyperarousal, that state of anticipation; “something is about to happen”, which typically comes from anxiety or fear of the unknown. In my thinking - the way depression/anxiety/insomnia are all linked is that they come from the same place, trying to escape a perceived threat. With insomnia the perceived threat is wakefulness. With anxiety, the perceived threat is the emotion we call anxiety. The more you try to scape the more sticky becomes. With depression, the perceived threat is the emotion sadness. The more you try to escape the more entangled you become. I believe the key to all his acceptance. Non-judgment. Being willing to experience anything takes the fear of everything away. So instead of tackling/fighting/battling/overcoming - I think the key is always becoming more ok with any human experience... It’s hard to condense it all into a comment here, but if you read for example The power of now, you’ll get a real good sense of things!!
I was diagnosed by GAD along with Graves Disease.. but my Graves Disease was controlled this February. Since then i have been trouble sleeping. I seek help through neurologist and prescribe me an antidepressant (Seroxat 25mg) and antipsychotic (Paroxetine) to keep me sleep but it gets worst only becoz i felt like i am going to have a seizure.. i quit taking meds now.. but I'm 90% sure i am awake becoz i am keep looking at the clock during night. But when i woke up i feel completely ok no headaches which my nurse is asking me since i have no sleep at all. I keep telling him i feel ok.. but only stress becoz i can't fall asleep..
Red Red Hi there Red Red, sorry to hear you’ve had trouble sleeping, but glad you’re here! A lot of elements in your story are very familiar. You had anxiety and Graves’ disease. But even when the Graves’ disease was controlled, sleep continued to be an issue. Meds didn’t help. All this is a very common story. And that’s good! That makes it easier for you to see that what helps others, all that I talk about here on the channel, will work for you. This said, so much to talk about here that I’ll have to reply in full on Monday. Check out Ask Daniel #44. Hope it will help plenty!!
I dont what is the cause of this but during my swimming lessons everytime i sleep at night its always like im half awake and half asleep. Its like im dreaming but whenever i move my dream remains but i dont know the continuation and im back to being awake. I dont know how to explain it properly but its like i wake every 1 hour and that my dream always get cut off
Hi Blanx, so sorry I missed this comment until now! This sounds like superficial sleep mixed with wakefulness. It can often feel like you're in this semi dream state. Often the best thing is like always with trouble sleeping, spending less time in bed so you're really sleepy and get deeper sleep. Please let me know how things go and stay in touch!
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 Thank you for replying and I kind of sleep everytime im done from my swimming lesson so I think what you said pretty much said it
i felt like my brain slept but my body didnt why do i felt like I didn't sleep? i dont get dreams too, I just felt like i lay on my bed and just closed my eyes ,then whenever i woke up i don't get the lazy thingy were you get too lazy to get up it felt normal that i really just lay down the whole night while my eyes closed
Hi Daniel this paradoxical insomnia is not getting better I have not felt so bad for a long time I don't sleep at all Paradoxical y and it is effecting my emotions so badly my brain will not shut down at all now
Hi Kevin, sorry to hear but glad you’re here and sharing what’s happening. You know something that is true is that how we think about what has happened is often even more important than what actually happened. And with paradoxical insomnia, a lot of people have told me that when they looked at it in a different way, it was helpful. Instead of being bewildered and trying to understand what happened, they looked at it as a good thing that they actually slept more than I thought! And even if nothing has changed in terms of sleep in itself, when you think about it in a different way, and the more neutral or even positive way of thinking that “ok it seemed like time just skipped ahead, I slept more than I tought!” - that can really help. Hang in there Kevin!!
Since last 2 month i"m suffering from insomnia.... some nights i go completely sleep less.........and think i have ffi........that is really affecting my mental health please help
Hi Haez, Sorry to read these lines but glad you found the channel. Please check one of the recent videos and look in the description. There you will find three playlists that I think can truly help. This is Natto, that's where we go over the fundamentals, FFi/SFI playlist, and also the success stories playlist. Check these out and let me know how things go!!
I never feel sleepy when I stay up late. I have paradoxical insomnia. Should I go ahead and try to stay up late? Should I just lay/rest as usual and fall asleep without knowing?
Hi J, Thank you for asking these questions and you know I immediately think of two episodes that could be really helpful to tune in to. One is episode 356 which explains why sometimes it seems like sleepiness has vanished are good. We call it the Bermuda triangle affect. The other one is episode 378 which explains why we can have what seems like a lot of energy even if there was no sleep happening. Now when it comes to a question like “should I do this” I think the answer always can be found in the intent. If you’re trying to stay up late so that you sleep more, then that is asleep effort. Staying up later will create more pressure to sleep and it will be more difficult to sleep, there will be more struggle. On the other hand if you stay up late to be more OK with being awake come out to enjoy wakefulness come out to do things that are meaningful and fun, then you’re turning away from us into something enjoyable. You are turning something that you thought of as a liability to an asset, and this helps! Because when we no longer try to sleep, then yes we fall asleep without knowing it.
It started when i went to canada last march 2018..for vacation..back last march i dont have insomia.. Then sudden change of time ruins everything.. My sleep cycle.. Im going to 2hrs of sleep to no sleep at all.. Ive been there this september.. Going back to Philippines i thought i will come sleep cycle or pattern.. I frustrated coz i couldn't get back to my own way o sleeping.. It so hard sometimes to have 2 days of zero sleep.. I take medication right now to survive.. But i dont want to depend on it.. I dont if my body or brain wont let me sleep.. Pls i need help
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 i go to bed like 8 or 9pm and is like tossing around my body or brain doesn't want me to sleep sometimes i sleep 2 hrs.and most of the time is zerosleep.. I dont know.. Sometimes i wish i never goned to canada.. It ruin everything..i wish you could help me.. I dont want to depend on sleeping pills
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 thank you so much... I dont whats with my brain.. Is it like imbalance cortisol and melathonine.. I dont know.. Right now im taking magnesuim supplement before going to bed.. And my medication.. I eat a lot.. To be strong and to be able to work.. I wish i could be normal.. Thanks God bless you
Sometimes i honestly cant tell . Sometimes i nod off and then wake up ever 5 to 10 minutes. That light sleep doesn't always feel like sleep Sometimes. Especially if im sick its hard to tell for me.
I also has a problem that mind is awake sleep and my body is fall into sleep.I also feel refreshed in the morning.But, I know iam not sleep well.what is this all🙄.please reply sir..
Hi there! I would say that something common is what I call hyper sleep. Hyper sleep is when your sleep is infused with hyperarousal. It’s like driving a car with the brake pushed down. Sleep drive and hyperarousal are both present and you can have vivid, bizarre dreams, you can’t tell if you were awake or you slept, you spent the whole night in superficial sleep state or that you time travelled (time skips ahead but you’re not sure you slept). The first thing to know is that hyper sleep is super common and a part of the journey. Nothing strange or unusual! It’s again simply some hyperarousal making sleep superficial. Secondly, you sleep more than it seems when you have hyper sleep! Just knowing this can often be reassuring. Most importantly, when you know the above and don’t respond, just let it be so to speak, these experiences fade along with the hyperarousal. Hope this helps!
Hi Niah, Thanks for sharing and welcome here.. I like to say that many many things can make us have choppy sleep, but the one thing that leads to an ongoing struggle is the fear of not sleeping…hope you’ll find much here that helps
During one of my afternoon naps i could literally hear my wife talking on work phone while i was clearly asleep. How do i know i was asleep if i could hear her? Simple. I wasn't trying....
You know Kevin, I think a good place to start is just knowing that insomnia has never been shown to cause any health issues. But, if this doesn’t convince it - then there’s not use trying it convince it. In fact, the more you try the more stubborn it can become. I think of it this way. The brain is a survival machine. It always wants to keep you safe. Sometimes it is warning you about something and then, if it seems like you are trying to convince It otherwise, if it seems like you’re not taking it seriously or you’re not listening, it feels even stronger that he has the warning! And then it starts to bug you even more with worry some thoughts (warnings). So when this happens, it is best to do the opposite. It is best to show the brain that you are in fact listening. I think a really good way of doing this is to keep a daily thoughts download. Just write down all the thoughts that typically were you during the day. Just set off like five or 10 minutes and get them down on paper. This doesn’t change anything immediately, but overtime the brain sees that you are listening and it doesn’t feel ignored and it says no need to keep warning you about some thing that you’ve already acknowledged.
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 thank you Daniel for this answer am going to do that what you said about writing my thoughts down because my brain thinks sleeping is dangerous for me and am trying everything like lots of efforts fighting trying to tell my brain it has to sleep but indeed it’s not working like this it’s giving me the opposite no sleep at all very helpful🙏🏽
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 thanks daniel I have question do I have to write down what my thoughts are during the day or before night ? Daniel I send you an question mail I don’t know if you received it I hope so thank you for this channel 🙏🏽
I think during the day often helps because that way it doesn’t become a sleep effort… Did you send a message to the link, to open class? Or an actual email?
Interesting question I never had before. And no, never seen that combination or read of it! Paradoxical insomnia in my thinking is one way to experience “ordinary” insomia. It comes from hyperarousal. People with narcolepsy tend to be very matter of fact and have 0 emotional relationship with their sleep. They simply note that they sleep a very long time but aren’t sad/scared, it’s just the way it is. This in my thinking is why I think it would be rare to have this combination. Thanks much and please let me know whenever you have other questions 😁
I can't understand why I'm still sleeping. I haven't slept at all for weeks like this every day. I'm dreaming but it's not like I've ever slept. I use sleeping pills but it doesn't work. I'm afraid of losing my sanity I'm so stressed
After dreaming, I open my eyes, but it is as if I woke up from a light sleep, not as if I had woken up from a deep sleep. Is this paradoxical insomnia? sometimes i don't dream then i don't know if you sleep at all
Hi Meryem, It can be really tricky and confusing. I think you can find a lot of helpful information in open class 133 where we talk about paradoxical Insomnia as well as Insomnia insight 396 where we talk about “is this my new normal?” Hang in there and let us know how things go.
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 Do light sleep and paradoxical sleep drive me crazy or are they dangerous? And is this way of sleeping psychological or neurological?
Hi! Glad this resonated, often knowing we slept more than it seemed is reassuring in itself. So is knowing something isn’t strange or unusual but happens to many of us!
I’ve had total insomnia for over 4 months along w/ dysphaegia/trouble swallowing and whole body parathesia. It was caused by a reaction between CBD oil and Flonase nasal spray. But it can’t be proven. MRI and EEG came back negative. I’m going to try and get sleep study to see if I get sleep at all. If it says I sleep I still won’t believe it but then I’ll have been diagnosed with paradoxical insomnia. I want to get ECT done if that’s the case but my psychiatrist said no and to get a second opinion. I am so depressed and burst out crying. All hope I had flew out the window. I always want to die because I never sleep. I’m on 50 mg. of Seroquel and still don’t sleep. He wanted to increase my Seroquel again to 100 mg. but me and my mom were both like no! Because I didn’t like how it made me feel. I never feel tired I never sleep. I eventually dream but am awake during all dreams. I am aware of everything. My family says they hear me snore but I swear I do not sleep!!!
Daniel Erichsen I slept great before. 7 hours almost every night. Now I don’t sleep at all. Yes I’ve done talk therapy. None of it works. And it’s not just the insomnia but the trouble swallowing and whole body parathesia. If I do have Paradoxical Insomnia I want to undergo ECT. Link Attached: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2276826/ I believe it may be the only thing that works. I’ve done everything! I am treatment resistant!!! 😭
Daniel Erichsen ok, thanks. I still feel that I’ll need ECT though. Please read this article before you dismiss: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2276826/
Daniel Erichsen Hey, I forgot to mention that when I saw the neurologist and told them about my situation not sleeping, dysphagia, parathesia etc....” they told me I should see a rheumatologist to see if I have auto immune disease which I strongly feel I do not have. What do you think? Is it worth seeing a rheumatologist to see if I have auto immune disease? It doesn’t run in the family.
Hi Kevin! Thanks for this question and thanks for being here. I know this will sound a bit counterintuitive but whenever we look at fixing a problem then we think there is a problem which leads to problem-solving. And here’s the tricky part, Insomnia happens when we are problem-solving. You could even argue that it is problem-solving. Because when we are no longer problem-solving, when we no longer try to fix sleep or achieve anything, then we sleep really well. Now all this said, let me share some words on paradoxical Insomnia that I hope will help! - When you look at objective studies of how people sleep you find the following. People who report no trouble sleeping sleep about six hours but estimate sleeping seven hours. People who report having trouble sleeping on average reports sleeping about five hours but actually sleep about six hours. So as you can see, everyone has some sleep state perception. Everyone has some inaccuracies estimating how much they sleep! When it comes to those who have trouble sleeping, they underestimate how much they sleep. That is completely expected and a typical part of having trouble sleeping. Now, when this underestimation becomes the dominant way you experience insomnia, we call this paradoxical insomnia. Here’s the important thing, there’s nothing different between “ordinary insomnia” and paradoxical insomnia apart from how you experience it. They are both caused by hyper arousal, they are both caused by focusing a lot on sleep and doing things to sleep more etc. And knowing this can be really helpful. Because the more you think of your trouble sleeping as strange and unusual, the more power it will have over you and the more difficult it will be to get to the other side. The more you think of your trouble sleeping as ordinary, the easier it will be to get to a place where you sleep great! - And finally, when we see that paradoxical Insomnia really is no different than any other insomnia then the question becomes how do I sleep better if I have insomnia? Well this is exactly what this channel is all about! I would say check out the playlists that you can find in the description of any new video and that’s a great starting point!
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 some people say that they experience “light sleep” during the night, which is when they feel like they haven’t slept at all and even tired in the morning, even though a sleep study would indicate that they did in fact sleep throughout the night. Is this the same as paradoxical insomnia, if not what term would be used to describe this?
Hi Kevin, Yes you’re right sleep studies often don’t say much about how we experience sleep. Now, when someone felt like they didn’t sleep… often they mean that by judging from how tired they are, there’s a presumption that they didn’t sleep much even if they don’t remember being awake a lot. So it’s definitely different from paradoxical insomnia when the experience is that no or minimal sleep happened. And I don’t think it has a name other than light sleep. However what I think often is worth noting is that even though experiences are different, the root is fear. And when there’s no fear, we sleep easily and feel rested…
I had this for a couple of years actually. Like zero sleep unless its the weekends. You feel the breeze. Your senses seem awake. But I don't feel tired at all.
Part of it is being consumed with thoughts of insomnia... You fall asleep... you dream... and you're dreaming that you're in bed laying awake... I've had this happen 7 or 8 times that I can remember... When I wake up, I realize that I was dreaming about not being able to sleep, generally because I recognize something about the dream that wasn't real... such as dreaming that my bed was half way inside the shower in my bathroom, which was about 10 times bigger in my dream than my bathroom actually is... This is a test that I always use to determine how much sleep I've had... I think back to what I was experiencing during my time in bed, and recognize the difference between a "full blown" dream, and merely a "semiconscious" state... Sometimes it's hard to tell, because when you're in a "light sleep" state, your thoughts are diffuse and only 'make sense" during that very state... when you come out of the state, into full consciousness, you realize the inconsequent nature of your thoughts, in that "dream-like" state. I suspect that often times people who think that don't sleep, are actually falling asleep and dreaming that they're still awake!
This is exactly what I have when I'm in a hyper aroused state. I watch videos to calm myself, falling asleep to those videos frequently and waking up frequently, always wondering; what is the video talking about?? I was awake all the time so why have I no clue about what has been said in the video before? Also i feel like I only slept for 10 Minutes when it was actually an hour. Sometimes i dream to not sleep but Sometimes I dont even realize I had dreamed until I really think about it and suddenly remember there was a dream (so there must have been sleep). This is completely messed up but actually i LOVE this phenomenon because its such a great tool for fighting insomnia. When the real bad anxiety is kicking in with thoughts like "I will never sleep again" "I have FFI" etc, I always calm myself with this pseudoinsomnia. I just think; well you go to bed tonight and even if you feel like you dont sleep, after all you dont know!
Someone recently made a very similar great point. Even if you're not sure whether you slept or not, you can try to look at the glass half full. I probably slept! Or even, if that's possible, ignore the glass completely, that's when you really start sleeping well! Thanks Lea for this comment!
I can totally relate bro
Same here bro
Relate, i thought i was the only one experiencing these stuffs
Yes!! Catching up on all of your videos and they are fantastic!! This happens to me when I'm stressed about sleep. I think I haven't fallen asleep and after an hour or two I get up frustrated and anxious from not sleeping. I'll get out of bed and sit on the couch and sometimes I've even taken benadryl while waiting to get drowsy and then it will hit me!! I had a dream of the REM variety... Spooky. I'm starting CBT-I again and not sure how to sleep log or when to get out of bed. I usually guess that if it's been more than an hour and I'm in the same position I have probably been sleeping. I haven't heard much about this problem, though.
Of note, as soon as I realize that I've had an REM type dream I calm down and sleep deeper.
Was CBT-I effective for your condition ?
your videos are great! Thank you so much!! Also, today you replied to me about my comments to Catherine, thank you for taking extra time to respond! So using the app snorelab lately has shown me that I am sleeping (as I am snoring), but I feel like I haven't slept at all. In fact I feel literal pain because of exhaustion, then I land up taking more melatonin and sublinox because I thought I wasn't sleeping, then I am super sleepy in the am. I am wondering if that painful exhaustion feeling is because I am not sleeping deeply at all? Is there a way to get into deep sleep more quickly?
Dayna Kliachik Thanks for the encouragement Dayna 🤗!!
Snorelab is a cool app, I’ve used it myself! And it seems in your case to confirm what you thought - you do sleep but you feel really unrefreshed.
This is a not uncommon, meaning, someone has no big and obvious sleep issue (they’re not snoring tons/stop breathing, they’re not having active insomnia) and just still feel tired. Often taking a nap/sleeping less or more doesn’t make a difference.
When the above is the case, then most often the insight is - Sleep isn’t the culprit.
It’s not lack of sleep or lack of a certain sleep stage or poor quality sleep that’s the reason for the fatigue.
This may seem really disappointing, because you of course want to feel better during the day.
But it can save you from lots of troubles. I’ve seen so many times how someone goes through a bunch of supplements or hacks or gadgets to sleep better and just end up becoming frustrated that nothing works and even start having real insomnia issues because they’re trying so much to improve their sleep quality!
So if this is the case, what to do?
I’ve found the most common culprits being a job that’s not stimulating, something else that keeps you from being excited about getting up, sometimes lack of physical activity.
And when focus shifts towards having a better day, despite the fatigue, little by little, things get better.
How do you feel the above applies to you Dayna? And but the way, how much did you snore, was it Epic?
hii, okay so for the last 5 years i’ve struggled with anxiety and insomnia. it normally takes me a very long time to fall asleep but i do eventually fall asleep for a certain amount of hours. today or this morning however, i’ve had a very bizzare experience. at about 2am this morning i was in bed finally getting tired, and i was rlly worried about smth so i prayed as i normally do trying to release my worries to The Lord. anyways, after praying i felt rlly sleepy, i checked the time and then put down my phone, and tried to sleep, i put the blanket over my head bc i was a bit cold, and then recall thinking, i was thinking and worrying about things and i feel like i was thinking for maybe 20-60 mins, then i started to feel smth like light outside the blanket which was bothering me bc i felt like i was finally going to go to sleep, so i took the blanket from off my head thinking my phone light was on, only for their t be light shining outside my window, birds chirping and it’s 7:00 am. i’m literally shaking rn searching up what this could be, the most freakiest thing is that i don’t even feel that tired/capable of going back to sleep but my eyes are stinging a little. i dont remember sleeping at all and i don’t think this has really ever happened to me before, the most similar experience i’ve had od this was at a sleep study. i was awake the entire night at the sleep study but then the nurse told me noo u did sleep. which sounds IMPOSSIBLE. bc i was tossing and turning awake ans thinking. i’m 17.
Hi GIG!
Glad you found the channel after so mid struggle!
You know, check Insomnia insight #322 I think you’ll find it very helpful. And also just spend some time reading comments and learning. You do really well when you understand what’s happening!!
How do you lower your hyperarousal when it comes to paradoxical insomnia?
I actually worry during the day despite getting somewhat light sleep. It’s perplexing I feel miserable in the morning but great at night.
Hi J,
You know I think it helps much to look at hyperarousal as a signal from the brain. A signal to look out for some potential danger. And regardless of what that fear is, whether in the context of paradoxical insomnia or not, hearing the signal is what makes the brain feel less need to send this signal.
Let’s review this below!
First just a comment on why it’s so common to feel miserable in the morning - it’s because that’s when the self criticism and sense that one is damaged or that something is wrong happens. The analysis of the night, the “why can’t I sleep”, “what’s wrong with me?” etc, this self critical habit and thinking one failed or couldn’t achieve something… it makes us feel miserable..
And self kindness makes us feel light like in the night.
-
Our brains communicate with us using various signals. Worry thoughts are signals intended to make us safe from a potential threat. Anxiety is a signal that there’s something we should look out for that may potentially hurt us. Pain signals to us that we are getting hurt and we should do something to avoid harm. All our emotions and physical sensations are signals.
Now there’s never anything wrong with the signal itself. For example if someone is afraid of spiders, the fear is totally appropriate, because the brain thinks that there’s a real threat.
Now what happens often however is that we start looking at the signals as the problem, not seeing that it’s the confusion that is what we should look at!
For example, we may start to think that anxiety (a signal) is something that we shouldn’t have so much of. Then what happens is that we try to get away from this signal, which to the brain means… we aren’t hearing the signal!
What does the brain do when we aren’t hearing? It sends more of the signal!
Now the question becomes this - the signals often are very unpleasant (which is of course the point!) so how to have less signal?
It’s to show the brain that we hear the signal.
We do this by being willing to experience the discomfort without judgement, without trying to make it stop, just acknowledging it without action.
When the brain sees that we are hearing the signal, it stops signaling!
So how can we listen in practical reality? Here are three ways!
1 Thought download
Write your thoughts and feelings down for 10 minutes daily at a specific time. With no intention but to show the brain we are listening. This can really give the brain an outlet and you can find that it starts postponing warning you until this time.
2 Going there in the mind
Imagine the scenario the brain is trying to warn you about. This is a bit scary, but really shows that you’re listening! For example if the brain says “what if I you get fired?” then you can imagine this in detail. The call from your boss, leaving the work place etc.
When we are willing to experience something if even just in our minds, then the brain sees that we listen.
3 The Aha method
I think this is very practical and effective. When you have a stressful thought you go “Aha! My brain is trying to warn be about losing my job. I see what’s happening here” or “Aha! My bear is racing, that’s normal and expected when there’s some fear!”
Literally any thoughts or emotions or physical sensations of hyperarousal can be met with an “Aha!”. It’s a very practical way of listening.
Hi Daniel
I think I have this as my sleep app picks me up snoring at various times. But the alarm test does not work for me I wake up when I set the volume to low. So not sure if I am really sleeping when I snore?
Hi MM,
You know I think what always helps is learning about ourselves. Are we using a snoring recording app to have some control or figure it out so we can sleep better? If so, we can see that we perhaps have created a sleep effort which is what leads to trouble sleeping… it’s when we abandon searching for the answer and control that peace and peaceful sleep happens 😊
And I don’t think we can snore when we are awake!
Hi daniel last night something strange happened to me yesterday I got to the stage where I couldn't take anymore so I took sleeping medication at 4PM and went to bed all the time I was tossing and turning all the time but this time it was like I started into rem/dream but everytime this happened I woke this happened many many time during the night it was horrible. I have heard that if you have been sleep deprived then you go straight in to rem what does this all mean. I can never go into deep sleep. I never ever feel groggy day or night I just feel worn out
This torture just kept on going this is no way to live
I believe i have this type of insomnia also I’m having difficulties socializing like how i used to could this be a part of that? And does cbti really works?
Hi Daniel can you tell me when do you know if paradoxical insomnia is "improving". It seems to me that although there are nights where I don't sleep at all and some nights it is paradoxical all the time. recently although I still take medication feel that the more I become less aware of this paradoxical insomnia and although I seem to be still waking up around 2am, i feel more exhausted ., yawning and my eyes are aching. Do you ever "catch" up with your sleep debt. It seems to me that you are in a catch 22 any advice?
Hi Kevin, yes it’s tricky... I think it gets particularly entangling when you kind of look at improvement as sleeping more... because how would you know when you’re not even sure you slept! So I think it’s when we become less interested... it sounds kind of odd but when you’re no longer interested, that’s improvement!
You see how when you delegate sleep, when you’re not trying so much because you delegate the work to a medication, you’re les aware of the paradoxical insomnia. Same thing, when you’re not so interested, it doesn’t bother you.
How to become less interested?
Education!
Let’s review some things that can help!
When you look at objective studies of how people sleep you find the following. People who report no trouble sleeping sleep about six hours but estimate sleeping seven hours. People who report having trouble sleeping on average reports sleeping about five hours but actually sleep about six hours.
So as you can see, everyone has some sleep state perception. Everyone has some inaccuracies estimating how much they sleep!
When it comes to those who have trouble sleeping, they underestimate how much they sleep. That is completely expected and a typical part of having trouble sleeping. Now, when this underestimation becomes the dominant way you experience insomnia, we call this paradoxical insomnia.
Here’s the important thing, there’s nothing different between “ordinary insomnia” and paradoxical insomnia apart from how you experience it.
They are both caused by hyper arousal, they are both caused by focusing a lot on sleep and doing things to sleep more etc.
And knowing this can be really helpful. Because the more you think of your trouble sleeping as strange and unusual, the more power it will have over you and the more difficult it will be to get to the other side.
The more you think of your trouble sleeping as ordinary, the easier it will be to get to a place where you sleep great!
Hi Daniel. Just wondering if this is normal for insomniacs. I no longer feel that tired, heavy feeling anymore ever since having panic attacks and being super worried about sleep. Last night I tossed and turned for what seemed like hours. Had multiple vivid dreams so I know that I must’ve slept somewhat. Saw that the sun went up then went back to sleep for another 1 or 2 hours. So weird.
Hi Natalina, sorry of course about the struggle but you know, this is indeed very common. Hyperarousal masks so many things like fatigue… hang in there
I have been having this for three weeks (triggered by a few days of jet lag which caused sleep anxiety). I ended up getting diagnosed with OCD because the fear of sleeping - or rather NOT sleeping causes me anxiety all day. I think about it, research it, talk about it all the time. I wake up every 2 hours or so, super anxious, and look at my watch. When I do sleep it feels like a trance-like state where I am aware of my surroundings and my body. It feels like I am awake but just deeply spaced out. I do have dreams though. I don’t feel like I deep sleep for more than maybe 20 minutes-1 hour. My main fear is that I am not sleeping so therefore my mind will deteriorate and go crazy, and my body won’t be able to take it anymore. I am constantly monitoring myself for symptoms of sleep deprivation, and if I feel fatigued or dizzy I panic. I feel like the anxiety is blowing this all out of proportion, but honesty just one night of regular sleep I feel like would cure the entire anxiety. My questions are: any tips to stopping paradoxical insomnia? also, is it dangerous? like is it causing severe sleep deprivation that will make you go crazy?
Hi Katherine,
I would say what really helps is education. When we understand that paradoxical insomnia is just another experience of hyperarousal, but it’s not from any other place than any other insomnia, this helps so so much. When we try to stop insomnia, we have more of it. It’s like trying to stop a friend who has a message for you, they just try even harder. So yes, spend a little time learning about insomnia, and I think you’ll see the struggle fade!
@Katherine, exactly my current experience, tell me, did you beat this? If in the affirmative, how so??
@@tafriovie844 It’s been two years since the sleep anxiety started for me & i hate to say, I still struggle with it. it’s much better, but i eventually needed a Klonopin prescription for bedtimes. I take it as needed (roughly twice a month nowadays). At this point, instead of crippling anxiety at night, it’s more of an uneasy/nervousness. I wish the day would come where sleep just feels natural like it used to. Good luck!
It's so strange. Last night, I literally felt that I was lying awake in bed, floating in and out of some vague dreamlike hallucinations, but very much awake for all but 2 hours or so. I would feel myself slipping out of that vague state when I hear a noise and assume that I've been awake the entire time. The night before, I know I was out for 7 hours but the night before that? I would have sworn to you - I watched the entire night go by without *any* sleep! So how am I able to function right now?
Hi SR Howell! Check out insomnia insight 312 and 322!! I think they’ll explain this and more
Did your insomnia go away im struggling with the same thing
Hello Sir. Do you have a cognitive behavioral therapy video?
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 ok thank you so much
Hello! I've been having a problem with sleep for almost a month now and I don't know what to do anymore. I lay down to sleep, close my eyes and try to relax. It is kinda difficult but I do relax and reach the stage where my thoughts slowly turn into a dream. BUT then I become aware that the dream started and I return back to wake state even though my eyes are still closed. And this happens over and over, the dream just disappears as soon as I'm aware it has started and my heart stars beating. This has become so frustrating that I now feel stressed about going to sleep every night, and that alone is not very helpful. I tried everything, breathing techniques, mindful meditation, drinking chamomile tea, going to sleep at the same time every night etc etc. But the problem is not about not being sleepy or able to relax, the problem is that I'm aware when the dream starts and return back to the wake state instantly. I thought about visiting a psychiatrist but I don't like the idea of drinking medicaments. How can this be solved? Please help🙏 Thank you in advance
Hi Laseryy! Sorry to be reading about the struggle you’ve had lately but I’m glad that you are here and thank you for sharing!
Much of what you described here sounds like what we call hypnic awareness. You can learn more about it in this playlist below. I hope this will really help.
Hypnic jerks, hypnic awareness and other common issues.
czcams.com/play/PL6RQ1GS7B1ci1B__oGwLvLaJ9Da1lmIKs.html
But I think you could also help if you would like to send this to open class where we can go over things more detail.
There’s a lot here to go over like sleep efforts and sensations of anxiety as well as the frustration that comes from not “being able” to control things that no human can control!
If you would like to you can send this message or another message to the link below and I will reply in an Open class episode.
You can also just spend some time here and learn and I think things will become much more clear!
Hang in there!
www.thesleepcoachschool.com/have-questions
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 Thank you for replying! I really appreciate it. I will check out the links that you've shared and research some more about this, especially about hypnic state. Take care! 😊
Anytime!! Thanks for being here and for the kind and encouraging words :-)
Hello sir Daniel! I finally found the right video/struggle that I’ve been through for a month now. I now know that I have a Paradoxical Insomnia! I have one question and I hope I can get a response from you. Is this possible to overcome without CBTI? If so, what can I do so that I can gradually overcome this Paradoxical Insomnia. Because not everyone can afford CBTI especially for those unfortunate people like me. I am really looking forward to your responses.
Hi SO,
I think they key is to see that PI is just one common way we experience fear, and that all we teach here is the answer 🙂
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 Thank you for immediate response sir Daniel. I’ve known a lot of people here in my country suffering insomnia and I always recommend your channel to guide them at least how to deal with this.
I was diagnosed with having chronic insomnia. My doctor told me that I should go to the mental hospital for my insomnia. Now I know that I suffered from paradoxical insomnia. I ended taking antipsychotics for myself not sleeping. This was the main reason why I was urged for hospitalization. I missed three months of sleep. I felt inferior because I couldn’t count by three backwards. I guess that I had trouble with my mind because I missed a ridiculous amount of sleep. It means that I slept zero hours a day.
Hi Laurie and welcome to the channel. Sorry to hear what happened but glad you’re in a better place. Thanks so much for this comment and please stay in touch!
How are you now Laurie?
Please how did you overcome this situation, I really depressed and frustrated
i feel like im dozing off but never falling asleep. next thing you know 3 hour have past but i feel like i havent slept a wink.
Hi Nocturnal! This sounds like what we call time traveling. Here’s some teaching on time traveling:
When you fall asleep but still have some hyperarousal, you often wake up without even having noted that you fell asleep.
I think of it like this: Your brain has started to think that being awake is a threat that it needs to protect you from. But sometimes, like a soldier standing guard, it can lose focus on the threat and sleep happens. Which is very embarrassing it thinks!
The brain is embarrassed, and therefore you wake up quickly (you may not even notice waking up), and then it creates a story that you were never asleep. The brain is trying to cover up what happened!
The most important thing to know is this is completely expected and nothing unusual! As you keep learning and asking questions (like now!) the hyperarousal will fade away and then these experiences will too!
Now for a lot of people it is reassuring to know that when you think you slept, you did! In fact you probably slept a whole lot more than you estimate. And remember, sleeping should never be a goal because then it becomes hard sleep, so we shouldn’t celebrate sleeping a certain amount - but it can be good to know that you slept more than it seemed you because that just shows that nothing is wrong with you!
-
Hope this helps!
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 ok thanks.
I've had this for 2 and half years. I wanted to ask is it normal to sort of dream your awake? The way I found out is by telling my parents I was awake all night. They tood me I wasn't but I protested that I even picked up my phone and read the time which was 3:43 am. This was two years ago though. Now I don't remember most or any of what happened last night. I just wnated to know if I'm ok? Thank you for this video it's relieving to finnaly know what is going on.
Hi Leila,
I’m so glad you found the channel! And yes this is a very common experience, I call if hyper sleep. Let’s take a look!
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Hyper sleep is when your sleep is infused with hyperarousal. It’s like driving a car with the brake pushed down. Sleep drive and hyperarousal are both present and you can have vivid, bizarre dreams, you can’t tell if you were awake or you slept, you spent the whole night in superficial sleep state or that you time travelled (time skips ahead but you’re not sure you slept).
The first thing to know is that hyper sleep is super common and a part of the journey. Nothing strange or unusual! It’s again simply some hyperarousal making sleep superficial.
Secondly, you sleep more than it seems when you have hyper sleep! Just knowing this can often be reassuring.
Most importantly, when you know the above and don’t respond, just let it be so to speak, these experiences fade along with the hyperarousal.
-
Hyperarousal simply means when we are in some excited state like anxious or curious. For example, many have hyper sleep when they have to catch a 4 am flight. So yes it’s very normal. It can go on when the brain is kinda confused and has thought that being awake is dangerous or that something odd is happening, but when we learn and the hyperarousal fades, then we experience sleeping and feeling like we slept!
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 thank you so much!
You got it!!
Hello Daniel,
I was wondering about paradoxical insomnia as I seem to have more of that lately... I think I understand what it is, but I am confused because I am experiencing this thing right before I wake up every night recently... I feel almost awake and asleep at the same time. Not sleep paralysis, my eyes are closed, I can't hear things happening in the room, and I don't see anything in my room like hallucinations, however I have these very vivid dreams and I feel as if I'm awake and I guess very aware of the dream. Not so much aware that I'm dreaming more aware of everything in the dream... Like people's voices and images are very clear. I heard this is a normal part of REM sleep to experience this momentarily while waking. I read about hypnopompic sleep but the more I read about it, it doesn't sound like that's what's happening. I'm also not sure how long this lasts and it makes me wonder if I'm technically asleep at all? Also if this is something that happens with paradoxical insomnia? I have lots of anxiety which I know can cause vivid dreams. I worry that this is all hurting my health too but I know that insomnia doesn't cause any health issues. I'm just confused overall.
I hope I wasn't too confusing with my comment, it's hard to describe what I'm trying to say.
I have gotten some wonderful reassurance from your channel and also want to say thank you so very much.
Hi Stephanie! I’m very glad to read that you found reassurance here :-)!
And you know what you describe it was very common. I might have already tipped you off of that episode 312 and 322. They both cover the subject.
I call this hyper sleep.
Basically when you are hyper aroused your senses are heightened so you often hear or see or take note of things that you wouldn’t otherwise. This makes dreams feel more vivid and more real.
So when you have what I call “hyper sleep”, it’s very common that you have vivid, bizarre dreams, that you can’t tell if you were awake or you slept, or that you time travelled. Sometimes it feels that you just skipped ahead!
Nothing unusual! And when you just do the work of educating yourself and applying all the teaching in this channel and you become less hyper aroused, you have less of that hyper sleep!
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 thank you so much
Anytime!
IDoc I have a question, can you sleep without getting deep or rem sleep. Cause when I sleep and wake up I feel like I haven’t slept at all (not feeling refreshed)
Insomnia Insight with Daniel Erichsen thanks
Insomnia Insight with Daniel Erichsen plus when I wake up I feel like I was awake the whole time, my eyes don’t feel like they’ve been into sleep
Insomnia Insight with Daniel Erichsen usually got to bed 10:30 or 11:00 (it usually take me 25 minutes to fall asleep) and wake up 7:30 or 8:00
I also wake up 2 times during the night like 3 and 6 am(it’s consistent for some odd reason ).
Insomnia Insight with Daniel Erichsen I don’t sleep during daytime
Insomnia Insight with Daniel Erichsen ye i don’t mind sharing
Hey daniel❤ i want to ask something .I am in the stage that i am sleeping well and the hyperarousal went away but even tho i am still thinking what if i dont sleep every day ,like my mind stuck to this thought.i still thinking if sleepness affects the things i wamt to do(i dont do them for now) but i still sleeping well . HOW these thoughts will fade away? I sleep but my mind doesnt seem to unsderstand that !!!
Hi there! Yes, you’ve found something common, sleeping well but still having insomnia, because when our days are dominated by fear of not sleeping, I think this is insomnia even if we sleep at night.
To me, this is an invitation to see that it’s not about sleep, but about fear… and as impossible as it sounds, when we are willing to be scared, then our fear of fear (which drives the struggle) fades, and insomnia fades with it
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 so what can I do ? I must be awake ? Or I must just keep continue my days and just leave these thoughts there ?? Thank u Daniel your work is great !! And one last question you think I am sleeping because my body is calm ?
@CatCat-vs5wv I’d say this, sleep happens by itself when we aren’t trying to force it - so it’s the “must” that keeps us from sleeping well. When we no longer think it requires anything, then things get easier. And we sleep more than we think when we have insomnia, but to try to monitor this, and to know how much, that’s tricky!
Hi daniel with this paradoxical insomnia I know that I sleep now but when you describe it as light sleep and then awake
What seems to be happening is that i hey to a stage where i start to dream then i wake up this happens all night it like the brain says dont go there it's dangerous hence i wake up (so i dont get any deep sleep)how on earth do you get out of that one
Also with sleep apnoea what is the best way to help yourself without medical intervention
Hi Kevin! You know what you describe is more like hyper-sleep or vivid dream sleep. Check out episodes 302 and 322 that cover these experiences and how to get to a place where you sleep more soundly. As for sleep apnea, weight loss typically helps, oral appliances are pretty effective too. Hope this helps!
I was just told I have this -PI, but ib don't feel I fit the description.
Many nights I do fall into a deeper sleep and I am aware. Many other nights, I lay there for my 7-8 hours and do not sleep a wink. I am aware, I feel the hours passing. But on those nights I meditate and I can bring myself into a very relaxed, still, focused breathing state. It's like yoga nidra. I'm still there. If you said my name, or I played the alarm, I would hear it. Others have whispered are you awake and I'm always very clear voiced and aware in my yes, wide awake, what's up reply.
On these nights, in the morning I often feel groggy and a bit sad that time for sleeping is over. I'm tired throughout the day and I feel like I am able to rally on the energy front. I often spend the whole morning thinking about just wanting to crawl back to bed that evening. However this exhaustion is very distinctly different from a night when I'm fully awake and unable to get to the meditative state. Those days I feel asleep deprived entirely and cannot focus, may nap out of necessity and will sleep deeply (unconscious) and I try not to because I'm less likely to sleep at night again if I nap, etc etc.
The meditate all night sleep can happen randomly, but almost always happens in the "first night" type scenario, including when I'm camping and rode 50+ miles on my bike, or hike 12 miles with a pack.
Anyway, I get the idea of thinking you slept 3 hours when you actually slept 6, but when you actually don't sleep at all.... It's hard to prove if you are intentionally still and controlling your breathing.
I propose that meditation is really effective at mimicking sleep in some ways and that this does rest and restore brain function enough to get you through the day. But the idea that a machine that detects blood pressure, arterial dilation, and movement are the only components of sleep and more reliable than actual human experience is kind of comical.
Remember when people were determined that homosexuality was psychological... They were handing out diagnosis like candy, but science proved otherwise.
And I think there is more information at play than current science has measured.
If you have any solid research studies discussing this I would love to see them. Until then, I promise that I know my body better than a blood monitor (watch pat).
Completely agree, our subjective experience, what can be more important than this? No medical advice here of course but, I completely see things the same.
I do have a discussion in episode 360 you might like but we haven’t reviewed studies yet. If you find one that you’d like reviewed here, just leave another comment. Thanks for sharing and for being here!!
i had this experience before when i couldn't sleep for 3 days or at least felt like i didn't sleep. then somehow i fell asleep in my parents room and things became normal again.
but it happened again and i feel like i haven't slept at all since 4 days. it feels like im just keeping my eyes shut and having a lot of thoughts but not actually sleeping. I told my mom to wake me up on an exact time because i have exams going on right now. And every time she calls me i instantly reply as if i wasnt sleeping at all. I just want to sleep normally.. i dont feel refreshed like i used to before after waking up.
Hi Taesmile, this is a very common situation that can be scary when it doesn’t make sense. Really, insomnia is just the fear of being awake. We may have a night of little sleep for example because of exams or some other stress. That’s totally expected and nobody things this is strange. But what can happen is the brain goes “oh wait, sleep didn’t happen, this is a problem”. The brain starts to think there’s a threat that can harm you. And now, now that fear is what creates insomnia. When you sleep in your parents room, it feels a bit safer and sleep happens, but you haven’t understood why you didn’t sleep in the first place so the fear is still there. So sure enough, there’s more trouble again. Seep becomes superficial and you don’t even know if you sleep.
When you see this, you see that there actually isn’t any reason to be afraid... then things get back to peaceful sleep. Hang in there and good luck on your exams, let us know how things go!
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 yes i feel even more stressed when i don't get enough sleep because i think my body will feel tired from the lack of sleep and i won't be able to study properly.. so for now i'll try not to stress myself over this anymore. Hopefully things will get better with time.
Thank you so much for replying!
You’ll see, you can do surprisingly well even if didn’t sleep much... this takes a lot of pressure off... you’re on a good path here, be in touch!!
Hi Daniel thanks again for your replies one question I would like to ask as you are aware I have paradoxical insomnia and chronic insomnia and all that goes with it now I still take medication which I am so desperate to come off of for the last few days I have started to sleep a bit better now I get up in the night to go to the toilet when I get back into bed let's say around 4 that when the paradoxical insomnia kicks in what does that mean I sill feel like I haven't slept as I feel unrefressed and drained.
Anytime Kevin thanks for being here!
One thing that I think is important here is that in my thinking, paradoxical insomnia is just one way of experiencing insomnia. It is really all from the same place.
People that have no trouble sleeping, they overestimate how much they sleep by about an hour on average. When you look at people who have trouble sleeping, the opposite happens, you underestimate by about an hour on average.
What I want to point out there is that everyone who has trouble sleeping has some paradoxical insomnia.
But when that, underestimating how much you truly sleep, feeling like you time travel and time just skips ahead, when that becomes the predominant experience, then that is called paradoxical insomnia - but it’s really just one manifestation of hyperarousal just like all insomnia!
Something else that I think is important here is conflicting interests.
If someone takes the medication and they’re completely OK with it there’s no problem. If someone doesn’t take any medication at all, no problem either.
But when someone has these conflicting interests, when they both want to sleep well and want to not take any medication then that conflict creates a lot of tension and frustration which doesn’t help sleep.
There are two ways to not have a conflict. One is to become more OK with taking the medication. The other one is not taking it.
The more you pressure yourself to come off medication, the more you actually pressure yourself to sleep without it which always leads to less sleep!
It is not surprising that you have more of that paradoxical insomnia later in the night. This is where you have less sleep drive so sleep is often more superficial towards the end of the night.
When you feel you haven’t slept and feel unrefreshed and drained - I think it is always good to explore to what degree this is because a little sleep.
Because if you think how you feel during the day is 100% related to how many hours you slept, then you will create more pressure to sleep.
So it is good to do detective work.Could the fact that you are thinking so much about sleep make you tired? Could it be that you are not doing things that are challenging and enjoyable during the day? Or you’re not as physically active as you should? Are medications making you tired?
The more you can point to things that are unrelated to how much you slept come out the less pressure you’ll have to sleep in the bed or you’ll sleep!
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 hi Daniel the problem is I never hey sleepy I look for something to make me sleep last night I was awake all night I try to keep busy and night I try to rest but that seems to make the hyperarousal worse
So I seem I just cant win I feel so emotional and fatigue every single day I feel that I have suffered enough and I just cant take it anymore
Hi Kevin - thanks for sharing this, it is very helpful. It may not seem like it, but you’re learning a lot that I truly believe will help you.
I key concept to learn is sleep efforts.
As you know, the most fundamental truth when it comes to insomnia is that the more you try to sleep, the less sleep you get. And this is because sleep is a passive process.
A sleep effort is anything you to do with the intent and purpose of trying to make yourself sleep or trying to protect yourself from losing sleep.
When you “look for something to make me sleep” - this is a sleep effort. And the act of trying to make sleep happen - this will definitely keep you awake!
This is why it feels like you can’t win, because you’re trying to win!
The reason insomnia exists is that there’s this narrative in the brain that being awake or waking up are undesirable, they are threats that need to be won over.
It is when you abandoned this narrative, when you see that there’s nothing to win over, that you’re fighting an imaginary adversary - that’s when magic happens.
You’ll get there Kevin!!
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 as always thank you for your replies is depression one of the major causes of paradoxical insomnia and chronic insomnia or is it the other way around. I only ask because I have always maintained it was the lack of sleep that was the problem I now come to realize that it is the depression I should be tackling. I also now realize that anxiety and Depression have always been there no matter how long I sleep I guess I was in denial and that could never happen to me regards
Hi Kevin,
I’d say the reason insomnia and paradoxical insomnia exist is hyperarousal, that state of anticipation; “something is about to happen”, which typically comes from anxiety or fear of the unknown.
In my thinking - the way depression/anxiety/insomnia are all linked is that they come from the same place, trying to escape a perceived threat.
With insomnia the perceived threat is wakefulness.
With anxiety, the perceived threat is the emotion we call anxiety. The more you try to scape the more sticky becomes.
With depression, the perceived threat is the emotion sadness. The more you try to escape the more entangled you become.
I believe the key to all his acceptance. Non-judgment. Being willing to experience anything takes the fear of everything away.
So instead of tackling/fighting/battling/overcoming - I think the key is always becoming more ok with any human experience...
It’s hard to condense it all into a comment here, but if you read for example The power of now, you’ll get a real good sense of things!!
I was diagnosed by GAD along with Graves Disease.. but my Graves Disease was controlled this February. Since then i have been trouble sleeping. I seek help through neurologist and prescribe me an antidepressant (Seroxat 25mg) and antipsychotic (Paroxetine) to keep me sleep but it gets worst only becoz i felt like i am going to have a seizure.. i quit taking meds now.. but I'm 90% sure i am awake becoz i am keep looking at the clock during night. But when i woke up i feel completely ok no headaches which my nurse is asking me since i have no sleep at all. I keep telling him i feel ok.. but only stress becoz i can't fall asleep..
Red Red Hi there Red Red, sorry to hear you’ve had trouble sleeping, but glad you’re here!
A lot of elements in your story are very familiar. You had anxiety and Graves’ disease. But even when the Graves’ disease was controlled, sleep continued to be an issue. Meds didn’t help. All this is a very common story.
And that’s good! That makes it easier for you to see that what helps others, all that I talk about here on the channel, will work for you.
This said, so much to talk about here that I’ll have to reply in full on Monday. Check out Ask Daniel #44. Hope it will help plenty!!
I dont what is the cause of this but during my swimming lessons everytime i sleep at night its always like im half awake and half asleep. Its like im dreaming but whenever i move my dream remains but i dont know the continuation and im back to being awake. I dont know how to explain it properly but its like i wake every 1 hour and that my dream always get cut off
Hi Blanx, so sorry I missed this comment until now! This sounds like superficial sleep mixed with wakefulness. It can often feel like you're in this semi dream state. Often the best thing is like always with trouble sleeping, spending less time in bed so you're really sleepy and get deeper sleep.
Please let me know how things go and stay in touch!
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 Thank you for replying and I kind of sleep everytime im done from my swimming lesson so I think what you said pretty much said it
Blancx Happy this made sense! Stay well and always here if you have any questions 👍🤗
i had this the night before i was on my phone at 2 o clock and waked up at 6 but it feels like a didnt slept
i felt like my brain slept but my body didnt
why do i felt like I didn't sleep? i dont get dreams too, I just felt like i lay on my bed and just closed my eyes ,then whenever i woke up i don't get the lazy thingy were you get too lazy to get up it felt normal that i really just lay down the whole night while my eyes closed
Hi Shen,
This could be what we call hyper sleep, check the episode from this week!
Hi Daniel this paradoxical insomnia is not getting better I have not felt so bad for a long time I don't sleep at all
Paradoxical y and it is effecting my emotions so badly my brain will not shut down at all now
Hi Kevin, sorry to hear but glad you’re here and sharing what’s happening. You know something that is true is that how we think about what has happened is often even more important than what actually happened.
And with paradoxical insomnia, a lot of people have told me that when they looked at it in a different way, it was helpful.
Instead of being bewildered and trying to understand what happened, they looked at it as a good thing that they actually slept more than I thought!
And even if nothing has changed in terms of sleep in itself, when you think about it in a different way, and the more neutral or even positive way of thinking that “ok it seemed like time just skipped ahead, I slept more than I tought!” - that can really help.
Hang in there Kevin!!
Since last 2 month i"m suffering from insomnia.... some nights i go completely sleep less.........and think i have ffi........that is really affecting my mental health please help
Hi Haez,
Sorry to read these lines but glad you found the channel. Please check one of the recent videos and look in the description. There you will find three playlists that I think can truly help. This is Natto, that's where we go over the fundamentals, FFi/SFI playlist, and also the success stories playlist. Check these out and let me know how things go!!
I never feel sleepy when I stay up late. I have paradoxical insomnia. Should I go ahead and try to stay up late?
Should I just lay/rest as usual and fall asleep without knowing?
Hi J,
Thank you for asking these questions and you know I immediately think of two episodes that could be really helpful to tune in to.
One is episode 356 which explains why sometimes it seems like sleepiness has vanished are good. We call it the Bermuda triangle affect.
The other one is episode 378 which explains why we can have what seems like a lot of energy even if there was no sleep happening.
Now when it comes to a question like “should I do this” I think the answer always can be found in the intent.
If you’re trying to stay up late so that you sleep more, then that is asleep effort. Staying up later will create more pressure to sleep and it will be more difficult to sleep, there will be more struggle.
On the other hand if you stay up late to be more OK with being awake come out to enjoy wakefulness come out to do things that are meaningful and fun, then you’re turning away from us into something enjoyable. You are turning something that you thought of as a liability to an asset, and this helps!
Because when we no longer try to sleep, then yes we fall asleep without knowing it.
It started when i went to canada last march 2018..for vacation..back last march i dont have insomia.. Then sudden change of time ruins everything.. My sleep cycle.. Im going to 2hrs of sleep to no sleep at all.. Ive been there this september.. Going back to Philippines i thought i will come sleep cycle or pattern.. I frustrated coz i couldn't get back to my own way o sleeping.. It so hard sometimes to have 2 days of zero sleep.. I take medication right now to survive.. But i dont want to depend on it.. I dont if my body or brain wont let me sleep.. Pls i need help
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 i go to bed like 8 or 9pm and is like tossing around my body or brain doesn't want me to sleep sometimes i sleep 2 hrs.and most of the time is zerosleep.. I dont know.. Sometimes i wish i never goned to canada.. It ruin everything..i wish you could help me.. I dont want to depend on sleeping pills
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 thank you so much... I dont whats with my brain.. Is it like imbalance cortisol and melathonine.. I dont know.. Right now im taking magnesuim supplement before going to bed.. And my medication.. I eat a lot.. To be strong and to be able to work.. I wish i could be normal.. Thanks God bless you
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 thank you so much.. I will update in that
Sometimes i honestly cant tell . Sometimes i nod off and then wake up ever 5 to 10 minutes. That light sleep doesn't always feel like sleep Sometimes. Especially if im sick its hard to tell for me.
Hi Jonathan, yes we have a newer video on this, we call it hyper sleep. Episode 507, that can help to check
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 Thanks for the heads up. Enjoy the channel.
I also has a problem that mind is awake sleep and my body is fall into sleep.I also feel refreshed in the morning.But, I know iam not sleep well.what is this all🙄.please reply sir..
Hi there!
I would say that something common is what I call hyper sleep.
Hyper sleep is when your sleep is infused with hyperarousal. It’s like driving a car with the brake pushed down. Sleep drive and hyperarousal are both present and you can have vivid, bizarre dreams, you can’t tell if you were awake or you slept, you spent the whole night in superficial sleep state or that you time travelled (time skips ahead but you’re not sure you slept).
The first thing to know is that hyper sleep is super common and a part of the journey. Nothing strange or unusual! It’s again simply some hyperarousal making sleep superficial.
Secondly, you sleep more than it seems when you have hyper sleep! Just knowing this can often be reassuring.
Most importantly, when you know the above and don’t respond, just let it be so to speak, these experiences fade along with the hyperarousal.
Hope this helps!
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 thanks for ur reply
Anytime!!
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 is hyper sleep a part of paradoxical insomnia? Is it sleep at all?
I get a weird head feeling like it feels so awake which makes me not sleep
Hi Niah,
Thanks for sharing and welcome here.. I like to say that many many things can make us have choppy sleep, but the one thing that leads to an ongoing struggle is the fear of not sleeping…hope you’ll find much here that helps
During one of my afternoon naps i could literally hear my wife talking on work phone while i was clearly asleep. How do i know i was asleep if i could hear her? Simple. I wasn't trying....
Thanks for sharing this experience Vlad, I’m sure many can relate and learn 🙂
Daniel how do you convince your brain that sleep doesn't kill you
You know Kevin, I think a good place to start is just knowing that insomnia has never been shown to cause any health issues.
But, if this doesn’t convince it - then there’s not use trying it convince it. In fact, the more you try the more stubborn it can become.
I think of it this way. The brain is a survival machine. It always wants to keep you safe. Sometimes it is warning you about something and then, if it seems like you are trying to convince It otherwise, if it seems like you’re not taking it seriously or you’re not listening, it feels even stronger that he has the warning!
And then it starts to bug you even more with worry some thoughts (warnings).
So when this happens, it is best to do the opposite. It is best to show the brain that you are in fact listening.
I think a really good way of doing this is to keep a daily thoughts download. Just write down all the thoughts that typically were you during the day. Just set off like five or 10 minutes and get them down on paper.
This doesn’t change anything immediately, but overtime the brain sees that you are listening and it doesn’t feel ignored and it says no need to keep warning you about some thing that you’ve already acknowledged.
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 thank you Daniel for this answer am going to do that what you said about writing my thoughts down because my brain thinks sleeping is dangerous for me and am trying everything like lots of efforts fighting trying to tell my brain it has to sleep but indeed it’s not working like this it’s giving me the opposite no sleep at all very helpful🙏🏽
Anytime Silvia, so glad it makes sense 😊
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 thanks daniel I have question do I have to write down what my thoughts are during the day or before night ?
Daniel I send you an question mail I don’t know if you received it I hope so thank you for this channel 🙏🏽
I think during the day often helps because that way it doesn’t become a sleep effort…
Did you send a message to the link, to open class? Or an actual email?
Do you ever see paradoxical insomnia associated with narcolepsy?
Interesting question I never had before. And no, never seen that combination or read of it! Paradoxical insomnia in my thinking is one way to experience “ordinary” insomia. It comes from hyperarousal. People with narcolepsy tend to be very matter of fact and have 0 emotional relationship with their sleep. They simply note that they sleep a very long time but aren’t sad/scared, it’s just the way it is. This in my thinking is why I think it would be rare to have this combination. Thanks much and please let me know whenever you have other questions 😁
I can't understand why I'm still sleeping. I haven't slept at all for weeks like this every day. I'm dreaming but it's not like I've ever slept. I use sleeping pills but it doesn't work. I'm afraid of losing my sanity I'm so stressed
I don't hear the voices around me when this happens to me. but when i open the solution it's like i didn't sleep at all i just dream all the time
After dreaming, I open my eyes, but it is as if I woke up from a light sleep, not as if I had woken up from a deep sleep. Is this paradoxical insomnia? sometimes i don't dream then i don't know if you sleep at all
Will it be like this for the rest of my life?
Hi Meryem,
It can be really tricky and confusing. I think you can find a lot of helpful information in open class 133 where we talk about paradoxical Insomnia as well as Insomnia insight 396 where we talk about “is this my new normal?”
Hang in there and let us know how things go.
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 Do light sleep and paradoxical sleep drive me crazy or are they dangerous? And is this way of sleeping psychological or neurological?
Yes this is me. I think i dont sleep but I am 🤷🏻. Or im not, unless I watched the time
Hi! Glad this resonated, often knowing we slept more than it seemed is reassuring in itself. So is knowing something isn’t strange or unusual but happens to many of us!
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 thank you so much for your reply and input🙏 God bless you n yours my friend
I swear to the lord I didn’t sleep at all last night. The night felt so long. my mom proceeded to tell me that I was snoring for 20-30 minutes. WILD.
What the mind does to us, it is wild indeed!
I’ve had total insomnia for over 4 months along w/ dysphaegia/trouble swallowing and whole body parathesia. It was caused by a reaction between CBD oil and Flonase nasal spray. But it can’t be proven. MRI and EEG came back negative. I’m going to try and get sleep study to see if I get sleep at all. If it says I sleep I still won’t believe it but then I’ll have been diagnosed with paradoxical insomnia. I want to get ECT done if that’s the case but my psychiatrist said no and to get a second opinion. I am so depressed and burst out crying. All hope I had flew out the window. I always want to die because I never sleep. I’m on 50 mg. of Seroquel and still don’t sleep. He wanted to increase my Seroquel again to 100 mg. but me and my mom were both like no! Because I didn’t like how it made me feel. I never feel tired I never sleep. I eventually dream but am awake during all dreams. I am aware of everything. My family says they hear me snore but I swear I do not sleep!!!
Daniel Erichsen I slept great before. 7 hours almost every night. Now I don’t sleep at all. Yes I’ve done talk therapy. None of it works. And it’s not just the insomnia but the trouble swallowing and whole body parathesia. If I do have Paradoxical Insomnia I want to undergo ECT. Link Attached: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2276826/
I believe it may be the only thing that works. I’ve done everything! I am treatment resistant!!! 😭
Daniel Erichsen I go to bed at 9 or 10 and get up at 9. But I never sleep that whole time.
Daniel Erichsen ok, thanks. I still feel that I’ll need ECT though. Please read this article before you dismiss: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2276826/
Daniel Erichsen Hey, I forgot to mention that when I saw the neurologist and told them about my situation not sleeping, dysphagia, parathesia etc....” they told me I should see a rheumatologist to see if I have auto immune disease which I strongly feel I do not have. What do you think? Is it worth seeing a rheumatologist to see if I have auto immune disease? It doesn’t run in the family.
Daniel Erichsen ok, thanks! I figured you’d say something along those lines :)
How does one go about fixing paradoxical insomnia?
Hi Kevin!
Thanks for this question and thanks for being here.
I know this will sound a bit counterintuitive but whenever we look at fixing a problem then we think there is a problem which leads to problem-solving.
And here’s the tricky part, Insomnia happens when we are problem-solving. You could even argue that it is problem-solving.
Because when we are no longer problem-solving, when we no longer try to fix sleep or achieve anything, then we sleep really well.
Now all this said, let me share some words on paradoxical Insomnia that I hope will help!
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When you look at objective studies of how people sleep you find the following. People who report no trouble sleeping sleep about six hours but estimate sleeping seven hours. People who report having trouble sleeping on average reports sleeping about five hours but actually sleep about six hours.
So as you can see, everyone has some sleep state perception. Everyone has some inaccuracies estimating how much they sleep!
When it comes to those who have trouble sleeping, they underestimate how much they sleep. That is completely expected and a typical part of having trouble sleeping. Now, when this underestimation becomes the dominant way you experience insomnia, we call this paradoxical insomnia.
Here’s the important thing, there’s nothing different between “ordinary insomnia” and paradoxical insomnia apart from how you experience it.
They are both caused by hyper arousal, they are both caused by focusing a lot on sleep and doing things to sleep more etc.
And knowing this can be really helpful. Because the more you think of your trouble sleeping as strange and unusual, the more power it will have over you and the more difficult it will be to get to the other side.
The more you think of your trouble sleeping as ordinary, the easier it will be to get to a place where you sleep great!
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And finally, when we see that paradoxical Insomnia really is no different than any other insomnia then the question becomes how do I sleep better if I have insomnia?
Well this is exactly what this channel is all about! I would say check out the playlists that you can find in the description of any new video and that’s a great starting point!
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 some people say that they experience “light sleep” during the night, which is when they feel like they haven’t slept at all and even tired in the morning, even though a sleep study would indicate that they did in fact sleep throughout the night. Is this the same as paradoxical insomnia, if not what term would be used to describe this?
Hi Kevin,
Yes you’re right sleep studies often don’t say much about how we experience sleep. Now, when someone felt like they didn’t sleep… often they mean that by judging from how tired they are, there’s a presumption that they didn’t sleep much even if they don’t remember being awake a lot.
So it’s definitely different from paradoxical insomnia when the experience is that no or minimal sleep happened. And I don’t think it has a name other than light sleep.
However what I think often is worth noting is that even though experiences are different, the root is fear. And when there’s no fear, we sleep easily and feel rested…