Why don't more preamps have XLR?
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- čas přidán 8. 04. 2018
- Tons of source equipment have both XLR and RCA outputs but very few preamps have more than one XLR input. And check out our newest CZcams channel / @octaverecordsanddsdst... Octave Records.
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I wish all ceos could talk like this about their products. Immensely liked.
How many CEOs actually know their products? Most are just generic MBAs and their current company's details are some underlying's concerns.
Thanks!
I love this guy. He is like a Mr. Rogers for stereo dudes.
Or the Carl Sagan of audio.
Man I love Paul, he’s such a down to earth normal person who doesn’t pretend to be high and mighty, and he’s also really funny. Keep up the awesome vids
Paul, Thank you for answering my question. I do appreciate the time you put into these responses and the knowledge you share with the community is priceless. Cheers, David. P.S. I did not go to Valencia High School, but I played against them in sports... :-P
Wow! What a great audio education I'm getting from these videos, Thank you Paul!
Love these videos Paul. If I could afford your equipment, I'd totally support your company. Especially one of your DACs.
Banana Splitbrain has a valid point here too because we are not running Woodstock in our living room!
I just want to thank you Paul for being down to earth and easy to listen to. Most if not almost all CEO's do not sit down and take time to "explain" answers to questions from a bunch of nobody's .
This is great because it really goes into the nuts and bolts of Paul's strategic thinking on product definition. Thank you.
Muy simpatico Paul! I got suspended for 2 weeks for throwing a snowball. But hey, it was a one-in-a-million throw from 150' that exploded on the steering wheel of a UPS truck traveling about 35 mph.. And no one was injured. I have no regrets either. I hope you the best ditch day that day!
I understand Paul, and thanks for being honest....
Here's my take: XLR is popular with most PRO audio and recording studios, due to long runs of very low output pickup devices like microphones. Hum and noise rejection is their greatest asset. Even interconnecting components with XLR virtually insures that the signal path is quiet and can reduce ground looping problems, etc. For most general home audio, cable runs are less than a few feet or so between components. With the exception of a magnetic turntable, your signal levels are fairly high anyway. Plus XLR connectors are huge in comparison to RCA's. It's just impractical IMO for using XLR at home! 😉
Close, but no cigar. You are correct about long cable runs that used to be up to a thousand feet. Balanced signals are superior for RF rejection and solving grounding issues. Now thanks to MADI and networked audio such as Dante and ravenna, copper signal runs are short between mics and preamps, and DACs and amplifiers. This guy is really wordy. Unbalanced is used in pro audio, specifically mastering houses. Since the connections are shorter RF is not a problem and since it's all in one room, there's only one ground. Plus, the signal is higher voltage (-10dbv vs. +4dbu) and results in a cleaner (lower SN ratio) signal.
Generally speaking, in high-end audio, components that are truly balanced tend to sound better through the xlr connections and has little to do with the usual anecdotes given.
@@carlosoliveira-rc2xt Not true. It all comes down to signal to noise ratio and the application for use. The unbalanced signal has a better S/N ratio and runs at a hotter signal. Unbalanced has poor RF rejection over long cable runs and that's balanced or "xlr" as you say, is preferred in live concert environment. Even in the hifi world, the uber expensive cables are usually around 6 feet or 2 meters.
@@donaldspaulding6973 Virtually no one uses long runs in a home environment so that point is moot. You have a lot to learn. I've owned gear more expensive than your home and have been at this for forty years. Many Stereophile reviewers have come to the same conclusion many years ago. If a component is not truly balanced, that connection will usually sound worse. The Sounddoctor disagrees and thinks unbalanced sounds better, but that's for another time. Like I said, it's not for the reason you state. No more than an amp with 6dB better noise reduction will sound better than one with 6dB less. With your logic, if one has clean power and routes his short cables responsibly there will be no difference in sound quality between the two connections. Not so.
@@carlosoliveira-rc2xt We agree on many points. The only place we disagree is the sound and how it is achieved. I only wanted to point out that most high end mastering houses (the ones with big names and unlimited budgets) use outboard processors and the chain is unbalanced. I was surprised to learn this. Yes, I always have more to learn, but I make a living in pro audio and consider learning part of the art.
Haha, thanks for the humble "disclosure" Paul. That just makes you more human amongst all the CZcams audio celebrities 🙂
As always, this explanation was absolutely spot on 👌 Since i have a background as a TV and stereo repair guy here i Denmark, i can tell, that you are very, very good at explaining fairly complex circuits and listening observations in a way, that most people understand you 🙏 I very much enjoy both your calm way, and your content on this channel 👍 I feel your company spirit and family very strongly... your passion....everything.....love it!
P.S. Let go of the past. You are such a nice person 😊🙏
Happy holidays ☃️🎄🇩🇰
Excellent video! Thanks for sharing the perspective of a manufacturer regarding design choices that you need to make to achieve end goals for a product. I found it very informative as a consumer and audio entusiast. 😀
You are such a charming guy! As always a pleasure to hear your comments!!! From another video... your explanation of MQA is unbeatable! We really need a limited link in a chain streamed audio when today bandwith is almost unlimited? You touched the key!!!!
I work with pro audio and can say, balanced is a necessity with mic lines where the signal is measured in milivolts. However, line level usually goes up to 1 or more volts. If your line level runs are more than 25 feet, balanced line level may be useful. Internal balanced electronics are usually used in high end recording mic preamps and mixers but live equipment usually is internally unbalanced or simply digital.
and yet many higher end companies use balanced XLR.
"Oh, we don't need to get into all of that . . ." That's actually what I was wondering about; I've been trying to look this up, all day. Bill Flannery tells me I can actually use both xlr and rca simultaneously on the back of this Sunfire, and I'm trying to figure out what's going on there and how that works.
I really appreciate your pricing scheme and your transparency about it. This is what advise new makers and producers instead of the "as-much-as-we-can-get-away-with" model. What if we could make that normal for the housing market? Way more people would be able to afford nice PS Audio systems!
perhaps 2 sentences as to xlr's better grounded connection & less electrical interference, etc would help us understand xlr. Love Paul's very effective teach a little, soft marketing sell a little. Just reinforces the feeling that his ps audio products are made with less compromise but with the tradeoff of a much higher price.
Great leader, great channel- just must find a way to save enough for his products.
He did a video on it just search
You got rewarded with time away from school for skipping school
I'm sure someone makes a (relatively) affordable standalone switching box with a bunch of XLR inputs and 1 or 2 outputs that you could put before your Preamp.
And if they don't, someone should.
We ARE proud of you!
I just found your channel and subscribed right away You are so enjoyable to listen to and i pick up a lot of great info Keep up the great videos
Great question and great answer!!! 👍🏼🍻
One of the reasons I bought my new Emotiva amp and preamp was that I could use Mogami cables to connect them. Emotiva also offers a CD player with XLR outputs. I mostly listen to records in that room but still, that CD player is tempting.
Gregor7677 sorry but I find PS Audio gear higher quality than Emotiva, not the same comparison, Emotiva tends to build Multi-output theater equipment. If you want a balanced Stereo CD player then you should try to spot an Oppo UDP-205 those are up PS Audio quality. The only problem they are not manufactured any longer.
I have the ERC3 and love it.
PS audio is far more expensive than Emotiva and if you watch these videos Pauls thinks highly of them. I only use their 2 channel stuff.
Superb answer
Southern California is awesome. My brother lived there for 15 years....moved due to job reasons to Allentown PA....was in Allentown in 5 years and just recently moved back to San Diego.....all just in time the pandemic hit.
beautifully explained. cheers.
Great answer...!!!
“Inter-product cannibalism” is another important underlying factor. This occurs when products with similar utility or within the same product group from a company compete with each other. This can be particularly challenging for niche product lines and manufacturers; especially when a manufacturer “doesn’t compromise” on their entry-level products. Prioritize the wrong mix of features in your $2000 entry-level product and then many of your high-end customers and professionals stop buying your $6000 flagship product opting for the over-speced entry-level model. Suddenly, you find yourself in a position where it may no longer be profitable to keep making the $6000 model for those who want it. In an ideal marketplace perhaps this wouldn't happen, but these are real-world dynamics. Often factors likes these are directly taken into account throughout the engineering and development of a product; Regardless I think it can provide a good lens in retrospect.
There are two parts to balanced: Balanced interfaces: Good for lowering noise floor with especially long cables.
Balanced circuit topology: Can potentially lower distortion if the matching is good, and makes DC offset easier to manage as the drift is common mode on the amplifier output.
Balanced volume controls are more expensive and less straightforward to implement.
For short interconnects in fixed installation and with more common amplifier topologies single ended is just easier.
XLR’s connectors take up more space on a back panel. The relays also have to be doubled up for every balanced input.
Hi Paul,
You may be correct about some pro audio equipment doing a cheap balanced in that is not actually balanced, but most equipment designed for XLR is also intended for microphone inputs and a cheap solution just will not work there at all due to the signal levels involved.
Sounds like a pro audio mixer with several XLR in and an XLR out to your preamp would work, provided you can deal with the hassle of selecting the inputs on the mixer - maybe not the ideal solution but certainly better than single ended in long runs to the preamp.
I prefer XLR balanced input/output, if possible on all audio equipment.
advsoft Well. xlr will still be better 0.0001% and 0.00005% are still different. No matter how good it is it still can get better. Sure it can be good enough in the end. But why not...
@@johnyang799Conversely things can never be so bad, they can't get worse too: a heartening thought if you thought things were bad.
I can confirm that relays are way more costly compared to the other components on a circuit board. Not to mention the cost of extra pcb board that they would need.
My whole sound system has XLR connections. Including the Focusrite audio interface has the balanced outputs but only on TRS because of dimensions. There is such a huge difference between balanced and unbalanced sound, I could not turn back to RCA or other crappy connections.
Below a couple of meters unbalanced is fine. You just need good cables. Balanced is mostly for long distances. 1 meter balanced cables is a bit snake oil.
@@Madrrrrrrrrrrr 1m? Ha ha.. Dude my setup includes loops of 5m at least, I have an eq, a sub, the room is big. I checked with regular cables and it is a difference.
@@neptunevibe we are talking pre amp inputs here
Yeah... What balanced does is simply level out the noise. I don't know why people are always so freaked out about chance of picking up noise to their system, as almost every piece of quality equipment, with a properly built house wiring obviously, rarely picks enough noise to be even audible listening volume when nothing is playing. Not to mention when there is actual music on.
A lot of snake oil.
Of course it's different in recording environment, when every bit of noise gets multiplied many times over through the process.
6:01 I'm not an engineer of any kind, but I'd like to think in an alternate universe I went to CalTech on a whim and it just worked out. I love this kind of stuff. Unfortunately I don't have the time for it. What I *do* know is watching roughly half this video, I might never buy anything from PS Audio, but if I am in the market for something they sell (okay, I'm doing research for my dream set-up, which would be a Thorens TD 1600, with upgraded SME M2-12R Tonearm and Ortofon 2M Black LVB 250 cartridge on an Ortofon SH-4 Headshell.) But after that, I'm lost. Ideally, I would have a high-end pre-amp with Balanced XLR inputs and a TOSLINK digital out. That way, I could be sending a purely analogue signal to the pre-amp, which would send a purely digital signal to the receiver (and speakers) which would hopefully reproduce the exact sound coming from the source (the vinyl record.)
9:31 WOW. He's basically saying "Buy our less expensive model, since it's engineered the same as the more expensive one." What CEO says that? That alone has sold me. The GainCell DAC $1900 doesn't have the TOSLINK out (unfortunately,) but knowing what they put into their products, I would be willing to buy a separate amp that had Balanced XLR ins to use with my system (not really sure how that would work, I would probably have to look at a home theater receiver that had those *plus* everything else I'm looking for.) Either way, if I'm looking at a spending some serious money on upgrading my vinyl set-up, I will definitely consider the GainCell DAC...
Well said file1 man
I knew I liked you, just couldnt figure out why. Now I know!
An extra $100 for more XLR inputs would be very reasonable and could possibly sway a buyer to purchase the item.
Glad somebody out here explains this shit for us newbies! Hahahahaha Thanks for your time Paul!
Hi Paul! There are so many integrated duel supply analog switches available, from SPST, DPDT, through multi-IO mux/demux devices. Even the expensive parts are 'relatively' cheap. Have you not found any that were good enough THD+N to use on your products? I've used many of these in different product designs over the years and they've worked great, but then again I've never designed something that most hardcore audiophiles would consider high-fidelity. Great video as always!
Nah, balanced in for live pro audio equipment definitely makes use of the cold signal. It must, otherwise your mics would feedback too much in a live situation, especially if you have a monitor pointed at your face. Anybody who works with live audio day in day out would know the second they plugged a mic or instrument into a high-impedance input. However I realize it's different for recorded music because it's not as hot, so the noise isn't as apparent.
Anyway, if I needed more XLR inputs, I would just get a mixer. Problem solved and it's a handy device to have around anyway for all audio gear fans.
On the basis that circuitry is cheaper than super quality relays I would suggest:
At each XLR input socket attach a circuit that converts the balanced input to unbalanced and have the usual switching relays on their outputs. Then you are back to the same number of relays as unbalanced sockets.
Exactly. It wouldn't be difficult or overly expensive.
Paul 'Bad Boy' McGowan. Mild-mannered audio electronics designer, at your service.
Thanks Paul, I enjoy your videos. It's too bad that a pair of old telephone relays could not be used, they would look sharp on nice pedestal stands clicking away besides an exposed tube, tube amp. An enterprising person could put 5 or 6 relays, clean PS, micro-controller with WiFi in a box, write a phone application and start a business like you did with Phono pre-amps, I will take .5% for the idea :).
I love revisiting the Clock Works and Fundamental of Audio episodes by Paul👨🎓📜
My cousin says 97 degrees in your old homestead today. Boulder has to looking good right now!
I play in hi-end and work in pro-audio. Not just cost of connectors and relays, but the cost of the “pretty” chassis. If really needed, could get a pro XLR patch bay. It won’t be pretty, but it will be clean, quiet, and rugged.
Outlaw audio has a full 7.1 system for under $1000, all balanced xlr out along with rca.
I'm considering a good preamp, but it will have to have at least one pair of balanced XLR inputs and outputs. This is where you could compromise, by at least offering one set of balanced inputs and outputs.
Mr.Paul
How good is the samsung s8 tube amp pro mode in the setting?
To my opinion they sound pretty good with my headphones.
TommyBoyZ was that a joke?
Scott H
Samsung s8 have a Completely new DAC that can out 32bit 400khz and can play back sacd.
You can see it samsung website
Balanced also means extra circuitry, so not necessarily better. Relays also don’t break the bank, I bet those rotary switches are more expensive when of serious quality.
In case you put a Jensen transformer in to balance the inputs we’re talking. Quality and money.
This guy is awesome
TLDR : We sell you 1 XLR-in ,because is cheap, or 6 ... because is expensive 🤣
Balanced inputs are primarily used for microphones which are subject to noise and hum do to longer cable runs. In home stereo the common inputs are almost always unbalanced. Magnetic phono, tuner, tape and aux.
Great videos! How can I post a question to you Paul? I'm just starting to put together my first home turntable audio listening set up and have a question. Thanks for the informative and helpful videos!
LOL, Great start of the video
I love this guy..
But can't the DPDT relays be swapped with 4PDT relays? Or are they not used in audio or unreliable? The best part I like about XLR is the shielding, unfortunately I can't afford XLR home stereo equipment. So I make my own shielded twisted pair RCA's with grounding pigtails
Have a 90's NAD 106 with XLR output, but for the life of me can't find a similar vintage NAD amplifier with XLR input.
The Yamaha A-S3000 Integrated amp has two sets of XLR's!
Yamaha is also a known Pro Audio company and tends to include XLR's in many of their higher end audio products.
I have a very expensive locally (New Zealand) designed and manufactured pre-amp and it doesn't have any balanced XLR inputs or outputs, just rows of RCA sockets. It feeds a pair of class A monoblock amplifiers (home built) that only have unbalanced inputs and the system has an exceptionally low noise floor so low level detail is remarkably clear. I've never felt that having XLR inputs would improve matters, but I could be wrong.
Do you guys make plug and play plate amplifiers? I want to build my own three way Monitors.
would it be more important to have XLR from a source to the preamp, or between the preamp and amp due to the difference in output levels on the different connections (i.e. preamp out is higher than the source outs)? Can an amp like a GFA-555 be "easily" modified to take an XLR input since there is no switching?
I'd love to buy a preamp/integrated with at least two balanced inputs. To save money manufacturer's could go the Accuphase route-- empty slots for input upgrades.
My new pre has a balanced source input and a balanced pre out, and its modestly priced, if you are getting married might as well marry rich,if buying new gear might as well buy with at least a few balanced options, my ext amp will have balanced in's.
Every time he says Stellar, I can't help but think of Stanley Kowalski from Streetcar Named Desire.
"Stella"!
bbut but but but but.... i like your engineering rants :)
It seems to me, with XLR interconnects we get slightly more gain in the signal compared to a standard RCA connection, and with the volume control untouched.
If that is true, what is the reason for it? Is it because XLR transfer is expected to deliver signal over longer distances and therefore more voltage is needed at the output of the source?
It is because the analog XLR outputs of a DAC usually have higher impedances than the RCA counterparts. Take the Denafrips Ares DAC www.denafrips.com/specs-ares that I have for instance. The XLR connections requires a higher impedance match from lets say active speakers. With me pairing my Denafrips DAC to a pair of Genelecs required me to adjust the input sensitivity of my Genelecs to compensate for the high impedance of the Denafrips. Without adjusting the input impedance I would have to adjust the volume travel quite a lot to get a decent volume.
I believe it has to due with impedance matching and the level of impedance may be due to a number of physical characteristics of microphone or XLR cable that cause a higher level of impedance compared to RCA. Getting a high enough (output impedance of DAC)/(input impedance of amplifier) ratio (usually above 10) is important in order to properly drive the amplifier in your passive or active speaker.
Balanced outputs tend to suck compared to unbalanced, and to do it right is even more expensive than what you're talking about with input switching and at best is only going to equal good, cheaper unbalanced, anyway. It's a utility connection for long runs around sources of noise and RFI/EMI, not an audiophile connection.
Paul, how long before a ps audio return customer comes back to do another purchase? Every new product cycle? On average every 6 years?
I look at the PWT transport. For its time, an evolutionary product to improve music listening from cd"s. But my 23 year old son can't understand why we would keep 200 cd's around the house, costly, up & down to put in a new cd, & taking a lot of storage space when he(we) can just go on spotify or tidal($240 per year) with instant access to thousands of titles.
You note, correctly, that quality products are made to last. as you said 20 to 30 years and/ or survive repetative use to serve us well long term. True, build it to serve well for life, but seems our hobby has a 6 to 8 year product lifespan. Yes, many of us use old & dear equipment, old friends, but I would not want to play my 8 track tapes or my cassettes, but do say yes to a few vinyls(at great expense).
So I must find a way to save up $2k for that next Jr Dac down the road.
Using unbalanced wiring is also a performance compromise compared to balanced wiring.
So in that way the performance compromise is moved from inside of the amp to the outside, to the wiring.
There is also another reason besides costs, and that is of course manufactory decission, where some manufactories wanna keep it simple, so their circuity design doesen't get "polluted". At least that's what iv'e heard, and my own Pre-Mono combo from Lavardin (French High-End amps) is a good ex on that perspective. They from the very start decided NOT to use Balanced inputs and/or remotes, and they keep that "rule" the first 15 years of the companys exist. Now they finally deliver remotes for some of their amps, as costumers keeps coming back, asking for that. Maybe there is way much more too this, and i guess there is, but i'm not an engineer ;-) Cheers from Denmark
I use balanced TRS. I suspect that the shielded ground in XLR wouldn't make a big a difference in my setup. I don't run power cables near signal cables, use short cables, and minimize RFI. I keep switched supplies, CFL and LED lamps off the power circuit. It would be fun to get a used power conditioner and rebuild it someday.
BlankBrain Balanced trs is basically the same thing. The vid is about balance vs unbalanced essentially.
I use focusrite forte I use trs as well.
Expensive preamps out there for xlr balance. Geeks get a singer sa1 balanced headphone and preamp. 600$. Nothing comes close to the cost performance. Class A sounds spectacular
I got a county wide record of 230 demerits in the first month of school. I ditched the first 3 weeks of my first year at a new school. Truant officer picked me up hitch hiking LOL. I am sure the record no longer stands these days.
loser.
what? quality cost money? no.... :P I wish more people value the cost of quality.
not the same,lambo,you pay to go fast in style,it cost a lot of money in parts and engineering,sound isnt parts,sound is just sound,so if you can make an amp,cd player,power amp or pre amp that sounds good,not necessarily expensive parts,thats what to pay for,typical example ,i bought a cartridge 20 years ago for £50 and asked why a re-tipping cost so much money,the answer i got was because they sound good,same parts to repair,but the cost goes up if it sounds better
Hi Paul, I'm aware that you can't possibly answer all 'ask Paul' questions. The question I submitted a while ago is related to this one and maybe you can post a short comment? I'm concerned about balanced headphone outputs. I have seen those on many preamps with an headphone amplifier. However psaudio although huge balanced fans does not provide balanced headphone outputs. Is this simply not necessary or bs or too cost intensive? Thank you for your great effort in making these videos. o7
I recall buying quality cables from a reputable cable manufacturer and their tech person said if all of cables are under 30ft, there is no need for balanced.
paul thrown out for disciplinary reason is as odd as water not able to satisfy the thirst, absolutely unbelievable lol
Love that guy .....🤩😍🤩
What do you think about Emotiva preamps which includes multiple XLR connectors on their differential preamp.
I have the XPA-1 Gen 2 and run everying balanced except the turntable. Glad I bought it.
Krell krc 3 has 2 if I am not mistaken? Could get used for a decent price if you look around
imo once you hit a particular price bracket, far below, it is well worth it for balanced. I don't see it as a compromise. I see it as a downgrade. Or what I should say is, it should be a requirement to have the option to specify at purchase time that you want full balanced.
For PS Audio a slimness is more important than a number of inputs, because exterior sells better than functionality these days. It really does not matter that $5000 will become $5100. A customer is going to pay. But if their candy looking preamp will appear an ugly brick (because of increased number of XLR inputs that need a bigger chassis), this will cost them much more than $100 per unit.
How about an external junction/switching box? Say six XLR sources in and one out? I've seen these for HDMI...
I have not tried it, but you can find one 3way on AliExpress if you seek for: Lastest Stereo 3-ways Audio Signal XLR Balanced Input Switcher Converter Splitter Preamp
If the issue is simply the number of connections on the back, is there an outboard unit that can be bought, that takes several balanced inputs and provides one balanced output? A basic selector switch.
If I'm spending a couple thousand dollars on a piece of kit then I'm willing to toss in a few hundred more for some more xlr outputs. I can add a cheep mixing board if I need more inputs
Paul, perhaps explain what is wrong/bad about RCA/RCA interfaces
I'll take some passive advertising if that's the small price for some good knowledge transfer. All mfgs. should be this transparent.
Could you just make a switch? like 4 inputs / 2 outputs for example?
A nice separate switch box that did nothing else could easily handle 6 or 7 inputs plus the output without the case being too big. But it still might be quite expensive as a stand alone device.
I find it hard to believe a $1700 pre amp even with silver/gold relays would leave you with anything less than a 80% margin, correct me if I am wrong.
Oh goodness, 80% margin? That would be great! No, we're not even remotely close. Once you factor in all the expenses, what the dealers take, cost of goods, labor, etc. there's surprisingly little left for profit.
PS Audio: Thank you for the reply, that is good to know)
@@Paulmcgowanpsaudio sell pick up only and/or direct on certain lines, or on vintage, bypass dealers.
Is it bad I use a XLR cable adapter to an RCA connection? I realize there may be so Sonic benefit, but is safe/okay? Or it it just bad practice....
Quick question not related with the issue at hand... do you deliver to Europe and what are your channels of distribution. Thank you
Hello Paul, I have a question on RIAA equalization. We all know (most of us) how with basic analogue elements a circuit can be put together to create a low-pass or high-pass filter. But with this we always get a phase shift. I am wondering how RIAA eq is done in the analogue domain. Could you explain this?
It is generally just an RC circuit either passive or active (Feedback). Since each filter is first order phase shift is really not an issue.
Okay. Many a beer and too little a thought!
I ran XLR in my sustem. I am not sure if it made much of a difference. I would have a hard time telling the difference.
CA audio labs dac -> krell ksl -> Classe amp
The main reason is most sources are RCA. These days you only need 1 XLR and 1 RCA input because all switching is done with DAC.
Can't you just use solid state switching like what's used in motorsports power distribution modules (PDM) ? Why rely on relay's (which have moving parts which are a point of failure?)
Or is there an electrical noise issue?
Yes, I would pay $200 for six balanced inputs
I understood, it was the price for single extra XLR due to it needing 6 relays + PCB space + extra cost of other adden bits and pieces