US election: is the West on the brink of collapse?
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- čas přidán 4. 08. 2024
- After a week-long victory lap in the UK, Sir Keir Starmer flew to America for the Nato summit, where he met US President Biden and Ukraine’s president Zelenskyy - but his Western allies have been in a less celebratory mood than Britain’s new prime minister.
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The far left and right are resurgent across Europe, with France politically paralysed after Emmanuel Macron’s snap election gamble, while Joe Biden’s presidency is in near meltdown, as Democrats turn on him after his disastrous debate with Donald Trump. With wars in Ukraine and the Middle East threatening to spill over - the stakes couldn’t be higher.
So, how shaky is the Nato alliance right now and are the strains a sign of a wider decline in the West? The UK has a fresh-faced prime minister, but does it have any fresh ideas?
To discuss all this and more on this week’s episode of The Political Fourcast Krishnan Guru-Murthy is joined by Liberal Democrats’ Mike Martin MP, Labour’s Mike Tapp MP, and Karin von Hippel, the director-general of the Royal United Services Institute think tank.
Produced by Silvia Maresca, Calum Fraser, Shaheen Sattar, Rob Thomson.
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Delusional.
totally
I hate this line about how Starmer can't determine whether what Israel is doing amounts to war crimes when he so easily calls out Russia for war crimes. Starmer is a hypocrite
Yes, but Ursula and the EU top brass are even worse on that count. And the reason behind the hypocrisy is ultimately the same: Amer1ca's 1n*estments (political, financial and military inv*stm_nts) in certain regimes and their conflicts. Practically no national leader from within Europe (west of the old Soviet border) has the space to openly speak their mind and manage their own diplomacy without making sure that Uncle Sam is decently okay with what they do. The only major exception is Viktor Orban. I'm not necessarily an admirer of his domestic policies but Hungary does march to the beat of its own drum, and Orban truly formulates policies from his *own* country.
Starmer = 360 degrees 😂😂
A bunch of leftists talking about defence. What a waste of time.
Wow! No wonder the world is in such chaos if that is what you got out of this.
@@patriayvida6850 The world is full of know-nothing, do nothing, armchair "experts" When you don't have power, it's easy...
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣When someone throws that 'leftist ' slur out there however irrelevant confirms their value of commentary - zero. And when a political class zero describes the Russian leader as Pyutin, that's a red flag, backed up by some dreary fantasy about the Baltic states being under threat. NATO has moved up from the Eastern border of West Germany to the Russian border since 1991. It is the antagonist, and the Baltic states will only be under threat if their admittedly dreadful leaders (very much on a parr with Western Europe) allow NATO to use them as missile bristling frontiers. I think it's just globalist Western stupidity talking re. Trump and US withdrawal from NATO. I wish it were true and that NATO disintegrated - no more threats, war-mongering, subversion, ratcheting up the nuclear threat etc., the US throwing its declining imperial weight around. Destruction and confusion to NATO.
Leftists, what I hear are some kind of established point of view beyond any left or right. They are all the same, they see the world the same. Tragic really and it looks the same in most European countries now. Personally, I find them lacking in contact with reality.
Trump❤
"We stay out of people's democracies" lol, only if their European. Everyone else is fair game apparently.
Not even then
Is Ukraine of strategic importance to the UK? It is to Russia as it borders the country (that was invaded by the Mongols, Napoleon, Hitler, ,etc. and would be of concern if missile silos are placed there such has happened in Roumania and Poland, not speak of the warm wster port of Sevastopol. Possibly, the same with Mexico, Canada and Cuba for the US. But what is the strategic importance of Ukraine for the UK? Where is the proof that Russian would continue West?.........
If the west keeps supplying arms and advisors ,he might be forced to escalate .
Because the defense industry says so, you can totally trust them lol.
Their is NO proof just American hype like is heard everyday to bully more support or else there will be consequences re trade etc.
Who are these clowns what has happened to the UK.
@@user-gp9vk8he5g Far left grooming in schools from day one
This woman is really not smart. She has a megaphone for her opinions rather than facts.
Trump is a threat because he won’t coddle free riders? What a joke.
Project 2025 - need I say more..
@@andyh3873 And what is it you object to in project 2025? I will wait.....
@@faithingod5533 so at least you don't deny it exists then, although Trump claims to "..know nothing.."?
We don't care about white christian neo-nazi europeans. We only care about Israeli Jews for they are God's Chosen People! God Bless Israel! MIGA! 🇮🇱
@@faithingod5533Removing all opposition from leadership roles and installation of members who wholeheartedly agree with everything the leader says. I’m sure if the left did this, your skin would go from pink to cherry red.
Russia was invited to Syria America as usual invited themselves.
The EU also said the Georgian war was started by the Georgians.
There's no money for the NHS and social services apparently, but we always seem to have money for war... Twisted priorities.
@@ihabjml1302 We spend 27 percent of GDP on all forms of welfare. But only 2 percent on defence. At some point people need to help themselves
@@hmq9052why do people not understand this!
@@charlierichards5865 I think many of them are foreign agitators.
@@hmq9052you sound like chamberlain.
@@stephenhill545 You see the point though?
Which "world stability" has Nato brought other misery particularly the countries of the Global South,whereis Libya,Iraq,Syria for example among the countries Nato destroyed.
Yup yup
NATO wasn’t involved in the Iraq war, or in Syria. Assad and his Russian and Iranian friends have destroyed Syria.
There are way less wars, deaths from wars, international wars than the was when NATO was founded and is a large reason why
@@AlphaMonkey357No, that's just a false claim you dredged out of your backside. NATO is an almost exclusive reason why the wars occurred in the first place and Russia is the latest example, They couldn't accept NATO a hostile military force being in their border, they drafted agreements like Minsk to avoid the conflict and NATO Along with US and UK pushed them to avoid diplomacy and to engage in war, then they repeat the same bullshit lie that Russia started it when UK wouldnt tolerate russia on their border either.
@@AlphaMonkey357 Last I checked NATO got a big one going in Europe just in the last couple of years... In addition to the many of its smaller ones before. So your claim looks pretty weird.
Strange that because the US wants to be more isolationist and focus on issues at home, it is a threat to Europe. Maybe Europe (ex UK and France) can rebuild its military capability and develop some economic growth policies. It seems the EU/UK would rather focus on green issues and social spending.
Europe defending against what?africa should be talking about defense against Europe, African and the Middle East are waking up, Europe have no more industrial base where are they going to get that pushed forward from?
Lammy also said that men can grow a cervix 🙄
Change the record 🙄
@@Steven-vo4ee Well peoples expectations of our politicians have become so low that they can talk complete cap and it's acceptable. It's people like you just accept incompetence and how we end up with ejits running the country. What with the state of foreign affairs right now I would quite like a FS that knows basic knowledge.
@@mysterymaverick1982 Straw man claptrap 🙄🥱
“We are powerful because we have more moral bombast.”😂
@@vancearmor9046 They are deranged
I'm saying this as a Biden voter. The entire point of what Trump said was that NATO members need to pay the 2% GDP they promised, as it's not fair that rich NATO countries have outsourced their defense to the American taxpayer while shirking their own needs and obligations. As an example, in the 'Stans in '18 Germany was supposed to rotate 44 tanks into theater, but only nine were deployable. Nine. In their entire army. Nine. Today Germany cannot field the single division it's obligated to under NATO. Germany is the richest member of the alliance and it hasn't bothered to fund it's own forces to meet their treaty obligations, so why should Amercica do it for them? If this, and Trump's possible election is an "existential threat" as your guests claim, perhaps Trump is right and it's time to re-evaluate the treaty in light of Euro members inability to meet the obligations they've committed to.
Who do the europeans buy those weapons from? Why do they need to spend 2% of all the money they make regardless of circumstance? Good year? Buy more guns! What was lybia for and can we get a discount based on how expensive to europe that whole thing has been? It's kind of created an anarchic black hole of suffering in Lybia and the rise of the populist right in europe. Nato is for ensuring nuclear non-proliferation across the west, and for factory workers in marginal US constituencies. And the odd regime change when the US thinks it can't get away with going it alone. These are american concerns. It's grating to hear americans talk about how ungrateful europeans are when one has paid any attention to american foreign policy. That's not to say we don't have enough suck ups in power willing to prostrate themselves for big dog's favor but please don't pretend this isn't a coercive relationship.
Just before Trump left office he tried to remove every single American troop from every single overseas base. He failed. But he tried. There is only one possible explanation for that. Putin. Don't believe this is about 2 percent of anything
How dare you post the truth on a channel 4 clip.
Poland, Sweden, UK and even France probably all agree with you. Germany need to reform and update their military, but Italy, Spain and Portugal also need to do more.
I don't think any European is fearing anyone else but USA.
we don't need to be "defended", NATO only serves the interests of US oligarchy.
So please stop funding NATO with your taxes.
It is a flawed premise that Russia is depending on the weakness of NATO/EU/Ukraine; on the contrary, Russia's military leaders always assume that their enemies will be strong, hence Russia is always more than well prepared to do battle with them where it matters most ie; on the battlefield.
The new Monty Python NATO Circus ....
Special relationship crops up. A client state more like.
Except for pop culture, what does the UK bring to the table? UK growth has been anemic for a decade and the UK tech sector doesn't factor on the global stage. The UK military has been so hallowed out, they can barely contribute to an expeditionary force.
"We are natural world leaders" lol
"We are natural world rulers" is what he wanted to say. They do love their colonization.
Yeah that's kinda the problem, it's baked into the British psyche that no matter how badly we fail, we're owed a seat at the top table. People really just say stuff like that and then back it up by talking about how good our steel manufacturing was under Queen Victoria.
This panel is less diverse than on Question Time.
Three guests who all agree that NATO/US = good, Russia/China = bad, more guns and more military is always needed. No dissenting views allowed, as usual.
Nailed it
Russia is a dictatorship terrorist state. I hate the US government too, but let's not act like Russia has some good defence here concerning Ukraine i n partcular.
yep. They reek of western entitlement and hypocrisy. We've all been sold the same lies for decades.
Absolutely bang on. This is exactly what the world could do without. They seem to be in another world.
Is british media allowed to show anything else?
Wearing that shirt Krish is what Sir Humphrey would have called “courageous”.
No colonial beige food nor clothing.
This is very true. American people are indeed done with playing games with woke leftist liberalism. We wish you all the very best. Wokism will serve you well...
Narrow minded guests, focusing on war when kids are going to school without food, families are more impoverished. And of course each country has their own rifle, because they each have their own arms industry. Waste of time video, nothing astute coming out of the mouth of these guests
Mike Martin's comments are spot on. He clearly knows what he 's talking about and would make a good Defence Minister, Tapp needs to be more forthcoming, but also realistic about what the government can (and should) expect from the UK military going forwards.
This headline looks fairly ridiculous now .
aged like milk
NATO is no longer a defensive organisation. Well respected economists, politicians, professors, military experts were all saying, as early as 2008, that expanding the EU and NATO further east was a red line for Russia, not just Putin. The US has the Monroe doctrine, so why doesn’t it accept that Russia would want the same privilege. It’s scary to think that people are building their careers by just saying what they think will get them to the top of the greasy pole.
I believe there is no benefit to us having a so called special relationship or any kind of relationship. It is embarrassing.
@16:30
Respectful submission
1. Strategic autonomy is the word. Foreign policy decision not to be taken by or influenced by Washington or Moscow. Not under umbrella of any big brother. Do whatever you deem fit for yourself, cause nobody else knows where your shoe pinches.
2. Indian foreign policy doesn't have words like "alliance", "ally" in it's lexicon. Never had in 75 yr history, never will in future. Cause in alliance, there is always one or two big brother and others have to follow them or depend on them. India uses word like "partners", "cooperation" etc.
3. India is not taking any side, it's taking it's own side. Not sitting on fence but on its own ground.
It was a very good discussion overall though.🙏🏼
The old socialist regimes of the Warsaw Pact also saw Soviet withdrawal from central Europe as an existential threat. Just saying.
This is completely hysterical.
what is a point of Nato in the first place NaTO is a meaningless grift of fear and warmongering
The greatest Empires in history have fallen under the watch of their megalomaniac Emperors. 🤔( "Green Fire" UK ) 🌈🦉
Not deterred?
Georgia started the war with Russia....
Syria requested Russian assistance...
Is he saying that NATO is directly involved with both of those conflicts?
"The evil West's 500 year-long domination is coming to an end." - Sergei Lavrov, Russian Foreign Minister
to many marvel films m8
"Theresa May personally poisoned the Skripals". Sergei Lavrov. Russian B.S Minister.
Western empire sucks but your mad if you think a Sino-Russian world would be better.
BRICS/SCO and all the nations that support those two structures, represent the global majority who no longer want be ruled by the West's 'rules based order'
@@shacklock01go to the moon!!
Well this aged well.
America has been happy to be the world’s police for 75 years. It could be about to drop that position. Interesting to see how this pans out for Europe. I can imagine this potential fallout won’t be that extreme.
USA has been responsible for many wars since World War Some policeman>
We are tents of milions Esdtern Europeans voters we will vote Trump 100%
Quite a lot of eastern Europeans seem to like living under the yoke of authoritarianism rather than freedom so that figures.
All comments are censured, speak volumes...
Thanks for posting
Best definition of recline I've ever heard!!!
It's relative is it...???
So as they came up on the bar chart... I think it's safe to say the other one has declined... Relatively...!!!
Panel of people who think we are stupid to believe Trump is a threat. Nonsense, pay your fair share of the NATO bill.
I suspect this may be a bot. EVERYONE, no matter whether they are American or not needs to take to social media to promote democrats, for world safety. I assess mental health for a living. Biden has some dementia commensurate with his age, so does Trump, but Trump is a malignant, narcissistic narcissist who is INCAPABLE of putting anything but his own self-interest first. He is a highly dangerous leader who is a convicted criminal, serial liar, grossly ignorant of world affairs who has already said he wants to undermine NATO, respects Putin and Kim Jeung, and wants to ignore the American constitution and American Justice. He will be a nightmare for the world.
Cant Israel pay for itself? Then we will see if it can take Iran on on itself without daddy America funding its terrorism
well said
... or disengage from NATO. Who needs NATO except Ukraine?
JB pointed out he knows how to tell the truth 💡
He lies a lot!
Welcome to the Looney Tunes, the Tom and Jerry Show. Except that it is not funny, it is tragic.
Just dont depend on the US so much then. We live in a multipolar world now.
As a Trump voter, I say let biden carry on. 😊
Because he does not pay Europe’s bills.
If it is we can all blame the MSM. Especially C4 News, BBC, SlyNews, ITV and CNN
An interesting insight into how the local lakeys of the US Empire are thinking.
first uk has to be independent , then uk may be placed as the center for talents (politicians, scientists, engineers etc...), relying on good education (very good universities for example)
Why? Is it because you have to pay for your own Defense .
FFS what is going on, this has been evident for ages. You're letting Trump back in. Why isn't someone telling him what's happening. I can't believe we are still behaving like this in the 21st century.
2 Carriers!
What are u afraid off. You might have to pay your fair share.😂
I think it's more the point that Because America just have nothing but Wars after wars after wars everywhere.. everyone else has to keep paying for it and upping their defense because of America.
STOP HAVING WARS!!
😂😂😂 Wars : Gambling with Big Money 💰 💰 💰
Nope. UK just put up its spending on defence. We are afraid of American demcoracy dying under a president that is clearly a lying psychopath. A Convicted criminal, who has ran dodgy casinos, fraudulent charities, and university scams, denies the lection results, lies as he breathes is twice impeached and is about to be sentenced for fraud. Wake up fool. Just because anyone opposes him, it does not make them a liar as he claims.
Which country are you addressing? Portugal?
...don't interfere with other governments. Okay then.
Actually the American is sensible
Britain natural power….of the past- currently a poodle of USA barking loud with old teeth on her way to royal casket😢
Special relationship? You mean, Bohica😅
❤❤❤❤
🙄 geez Louise.
Thank you for bringing Mike Martin on. One of the most able military strategists in the country and an expert on Ukraine.
He's a moron. Aircraft carriers are a 50-year investment. Getting rid of them just because the flavour of the month is Russia/Ukraine is absolute lunacy. It's like putting up an ad saying, "We have 14 overseas territories; come and take them".
Red, gold and green.... what our parliament should consist of.
Didnt Boy George sing about that
Karma Chameleon
The Defence review will just be, do more with less, just like every previous review.
This aged well.
This conversation was so grown up after the carnage we’ve had for the past decade. I’m so happy to see this and I’m hopeful we will make the right decisions in a more dangerous world.
Oh bull!
UK? In recession and not aligned with the Euro trade policy
This guy speaks for him self. He does not represent England at all.
I vote for Trump 100%
Whats the European Union got to do with defence??? Had to slip that in channel 4. The e.u is based on free trade. Channel 4 your reporting is biased.
There's a mutual defence clause in the Treaty of Lisbon.
the answer is YES FOR SURE pretty soon! 👽🕉
So many ads 😢
Will any replacements though be even less popular than him
Hilarious watching you guys starting to freak out at the prospect of a Trump presidency 😂
Here’s a thought, learn to defend yourselves instead of leeching off American tax payers.
No one is leeching. That's not how NATO works.
I’ll 100% agree Europe should be able to stand on its on terms without needing US help but don’t for one second pretend America is in it for Europe’s benefit.
Every single thing the US does is for its own Benefit. Everything. Its interest in Taiwan has nothing to do with helping the Taiwanese people. Nothing. Nor does its interest in keeping Europe largely out of a dictators hands. It’s about its long term vision of protecting America.
UK has just increased it's defence spending to 2.5% of GDP. I agree that we should all pay, but this does not mean electing an orange criminal psychopath to the Presidency. This would be a disaster not only for the US (yes he is lying to you), but also for everywhere in the free world.
America proudly blasts your own taxes on defence lol bahahahahahahaa
@@OZOZOZ968 maybe that’s why we are the only country in NATO who could actually take on Russia in a war?
Why can't Europeans take care of themselves?
Because we spent the last 30 years giving the US insane amounts of money for their armaments because we didnt want to make some of our own
That’s exactly Trump’s policy
The existential threat to Europe is the attitudes and ideologies of self-hated that led us to the abandonment of all principles and practices that made us great and dominant in the world.
Reverse that and we will thrive again.
@ANTREU96 most NATO nations had not spent the agreed amount for decades, choosing instead to spend their fairly large national budgets on social programs.
De-industrializing for a net zero agenda doesnt seem so great now does it?
@@ANTREU96 Europeans were giving US insane amounts of money for armament?
Where did you get that???
Trump will never be a threat to Europe. It's time for the EU to provide security for itself in its entirety. The United States has provided security for Europe for more than 75 years. The EU is a rich union and should be able to protect itself. It's that simple. The EU has outsourced its security to the United States.
I think USA wanted it itself too. It wanted to be the big brother Uncle Sam. It wanted to be a hagemon. EU just complied because of convenience.
Wait, so the emperor does not want to be the power anymore.... so your stepping down from ruling the world right?
Trump is not only a threat ot Europe and Nato (he has said he sees no point in it) but he is also a threat ot America. He is an unhinged narcisstic psychopath (yes I am qualified to say this ) that lies as he breathes - no way, ever, should such a person hold power.
The NATO worked on USA advantage as a force to resist and expand the west power in the cold war. At that time the USA was very happy to have most of the militar capability in the alliance.
That is changing now, and whilst Trump wouldn't be a direct threat to Europe, Trump would be less likely to participate in deffending NATO allies against Russia or other external powers, and also would be more likely to negociate a deal in Ukraine in favorble terms for Putin. Considering those areas and the real impact of the decisions, Trump may as well be the biggest threat that Europe has in the next years.
The US investment in European security is an investment in its own influence, its own security, and strategic alliances and trade partners. Great presidents like FDR snd Eisenhauer understood this. It's not altruism.
Put money in your defense
What trump says and what he believes is not the same!
Rules are for the little people!
Douglas Murray look alike
Ehy is it so hard for this crow to just recognize that they sre simply not the strongest kid on the block?
Delulu
This caliber of discourse is simply embarrassing.
You cant hsve a word if you are a puppy. Period
European free-riders.
The Democrats need to cast Biden aside as he’s not becoming a liability to them.
They can't. Newsome has turned California into a feces-ridden state (come to San Francisco). And Cackling Kamala is only good for a laugh. With 100% food price inflation, Democrats have zero chance. Biden is irrelevant. He was hiding in the basement while media vilified Trump. That and 'mail-ballots' (no secrecy, Democrats go to minority houses and fill them out) helped Biden win last time. Can't do that anymore.
Voting for Trump.
Yaa u won’t think 😂😂😂but it’s true eastern world is more powerful madam
Stop dehumanising your political opponents! He might be a political danger to you but certainly not the general public.And he is coming back.
Democrats need to get a back bone and insist Biden step aside. Appeal to their own self interest by pointing out Trump will come for them as well as everything else. Trump must not win. Take the keys from grandpa already or people really are gonna get hurt.
Biden is just as bad; he’s a war monger.
We love Trump in Europe.
Trump is gonna fix everything, and this is coming from a black woman!
@@michaeltruman3218No, I vaguely remember him being laughed at by the Europeans and during the NATO meeting
@@michaeltruman3218 Maybe the Nazis in Europe
Liberal tears 😭 are flowing...😊
Even the right can't stand Trump. Romney, Cheney etc.
Trump is not a treat,but the best friend a patriot ever he is by origin European.
Somrone beeds tp tell the labour guy the election is over
The labour guy, is already part of the Labour Party representing one of the seats. Your comment does not make sense.
Brexit Britain should join BRICS
I don't think these guys are very well read, but the magaloids in the comments are even worse.
Yada yada blah blah.
Mike Martin is excellent
I wonder how many of these ignorant and or inane comments are 'real'...??
Well I've found one bot right here
@@the.teflon.Don1 Watch much Ch4 do you, Donny boy??
European policies are shaped and decided by U.S.
Not really. EU leaders are lackeys of USA. Germany is outright subservient to USA. That's not USA's fault.
Channel Bore bro am i right. NGL just remembered to unsubscribe impartial yes okay whatever you say.
LOL. Propaganda, or what