Did Wave 6 END Bagging? What even is it!?
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- čas přidán 26. 06. 2024
- There has been an absolutely insane amount of overreacting and insult hurling going on around between casual and competitive players, and a lot of people who are talking very loudly. Today I want to try to make sense of it all as best as I possibly can. Today we will go over the Wave 6 "meta change", how big it actually is, and explain bagging, it's actual uses, and all the misconceptions about it being some broken strategy when in reality, it is a reactionary strategy to try to save otherwise lost races, not a pre-planned / primary one. Remember, testing the item system is not something people do in actual races! Hopefully everyone can be a little nicer in the process moving forward :)
We'll be talking about tracks again in the next video surely. Stay tuned for that!
Online Mario Kart: mariokartcentral.com
Rook's Domain: / discord
0:00 Pump the Brakes
1:24 What is Bagging? How did it change?
3:31 Somebody Will Always be Angry
6:13 Bagging is not Overpowered
8:08 Bagging is a Phase, not a Strategy
9:41 Bagging Conclusions
11:08 New Characters / Jukebox
11:55 Invincibility is Still a Bad Statistic
13:37 Other Changes
♪ DK Mountain
♪ Rosalina's Ice World
♪ Piranha Plant Cove
Outro: • Sweet, Sweet Victory (... - Hry
So I don't exactly know what made this such a sensitive topic to many online, but I do want to give a personal perspective on what I saw. I saw many people attacking people who really don't deserve it. Some people were going after Mankalor for posting about "item smugglings" viability after Wave 6 and I saw some really rude stuff. For the record, Mankalor is one of the kindest people I've met online and offline. He has a really strong work ethic and has done so much in the last year to build a community for us in Ohio, a place that didn't previously have one. Largely because of him, I am about to leave to go to a convention that is hosting Mario Kart today, which is something that could not happen just a few years ago. He makes so much of this stuff happen and has made Mario Kart a social game for many.
So to see people attack him because they don't like how he plays the game online is embarrassing. Not only is the criticism full of inaccuracies, but even if smuggling actually was some broken strategy, he still wouldn't deserve this. This goes for other people too who have tested the changes / gave opinions on the matter, who were also given this treatment. Ironically though, a bunch of people told Mank that he plays the game the wrong way, and it's their only argument. Keep in mind, Nintendo has flown him out on two separate occasions to compete at PAX in their Championship Cup in front of thousands now. So not sure this claim really stacks up 😅
I just hope driving tech doesn't destroy controllers.
Nintendo also flew out Adam twice, and he still plays Waluigi Wiggler which people said was the wrong way to play the game
@@ryanbrook8384 You don't need a ton of tech in a MK game. I'm just pointing out that the removal of it has naturally led to some more bagging, and that the fans that hate bagging also kind of fall into the same group of players that hate driving tech. It really comes across as them just wanting everyone to play the game like CPUs.
Great video! Loved it. Everything you said is spot on, and i think most long-time mario kart players would agree.
I think that bagging is worse than running, but it is still overpowered. Ideally i want 1st place frontrunning to have a better chance of winning on every single track. As a casual, when i first learned that there are some tracks actually favor bagging over frontrunning, that felt really stupid.
And yes you are 100% right, i only beat my lobbies by bagging because im better than the people in those lobbies. But a lot of people dont understand the skill+knowledge it takes to bag, which is why people dont say "good job shortcat", they say "bagging is broken".
Although i think the part about snaking and fire hopping being nerfed is interesting. Did those changes buff bagging? Yes. But having the game favor running doesnt have to be the result of advanced tech. Nintendo could have running be the overtly dominant strategy without having it look silly to casuals. If mk8dx had 1 item slot then it would already be a lot closer to that type of balance.
And i genuinely think bagging is loved by most people, and has contributed greatly to the sales of this game. Comebacks are hype af, people just dont like the part where you stop moving.
Shortcat?
That last point is so true. We're all on the same page here, really. Everyone from casual to lounge grandmasters enjoy sandbagging, but just not HARD bagging. We all draw the line between slowing down a little for a better box and backing up to farm 3 or more boxes at an item set. No one minds the former, but the latter is universally disliked.
I think double items were actually a great change for the game. They give each player more agency/control. They make coins a functional item. So to be honest, I welcome it staying. 8DX is more advanced than people realize driving wise too, but it still is on the easier end. Honestly I think the changes might be good, but personally I would've taken a different approach than to mess with strategies itself. And you're totally right about there being a confirmation bias about pulling off a smuggle. Players on CZcams only see the successes, so they probably tend to think it is broken as such.
@@HDRookie I also enjoy the double item boxes, I think they're awesome! But I think it sways the game further towards bagging being too strong, and having single items would help in that specific issue. But again I wouldn't actually remove double item boxes because they're overall great. I enjoy that I can strategize more thanks to double item boxes, but it's a bit silly that 1 bullet + shock dodge on cheese land and suddenly i'm holding a shock in 1st.
i strongly dislike the misconception a lot of casual players have that bagging is an alternative to frontrunning, whereas in reality on 90% of tracks frontrunning is clearly more powerful and bagging is actually an alternative to getting griefed by fire, rangs, plants, bombs, triples etc in the midpack.
I think the change is fine, maybe a step in the right direction, but it doesn’t do anything to address the real reason bagging exists and is prevalent which is that playing in any position from 4-8th is just impossible even if you’re the fastest driver in the lobby. I would love to frontrun every race, but if i get hit out early, would i rather stop, get to 10 coins and try to run up a star, or play in the midpack and pull shit items, get hit by everyone elses shit items and lose all my coins? even with the changes, it’s a very easy question to answer
Well said 🤝
I usually stay out of Nintendo discourse but the amount of harassment Mankalor recieved over documenting changes to the game is insane. Wasn't everyone JUST losing their minds over Nintendo's tournament guidelines for trying to restrict how we play their games? Mank is great, don't know him well except the 3 or 4 times I've asked to collab then didn't actually follow through because I'm silly. Glad he seems to be coping well because I would not be doing okay in his shoes.
Nintendo please let us play the game how we like unless it's not aesthetically pleasing
I don’t understand why some people got just so angry about this kind of stuff.
Nintendo nerfed the hell out of one of my favorite characters in wave 4, and I was just like: “oh damn, oh well.”
“Harassment” is the new victim term for criticism of someone.
@@crimson1millioncalling someone a loser to their face because they play the game differently is definitely harassment
@@italic177 when someone like mankalor or anyone who says “let people who play the game their way” are way off. This is a game of where everyone competes against everyone for online matches. You’re going to always clash with others. And I will continue to criticize those that will defend bagging.
As long as there are players who grind and get good at the game, then decide to play online where casuals will run into them, casuals will be unhappy. The “tell them get good if they’re bad” and “they have no life if they’re good” is actually so common and annoying.
Yeah. It doesn't matter what strategy is or isn't there. Anyone who wins online can and will be villainized for any game, sadly.
The first two seconds LMFAO
Great video, covered pretty much all important info on the update, keep it up 😎
It's honestly crazy how both sides are going at each other with such hostility. I play competitive and have never really liked bagging but its totally understandable why people do it as it usually produces more consistent results but can sometimes be more risky, just not as fun for me personally. People who say its cheating are crazy tho lol it has just about as much as risk and reward as frontrunning, and I say that as someone who loves to frontrun. The Mankalor slander was really sad though as he was literally just explaining how bagging is still possible. Let people play the game how they want
I remember Shortcat made a good point on how both front running and bagging are as equally RNG-dependent as the other. Bagging is obvious, but even when you’re at the front, playing offensively means being smart with how you manage your items. E.g. The risk-reward of chaining defensive items and coins for each other, plus the Boo x-factor.
While still different strategies, they are both fundamentally all about maximizing your odds at every turn, or rather item set. And that’s a skill in and of itself.
That's true. But when things go wrong up front, you might just lose a few spots. When something goes wrong while bagging, you're getting a bottom spot nearly every time. Frontrunning is still preferable on most tracks, even if there is still some risk to it.
Obviously bagging will never die out, but I feel this will be a good change in the long run. I'm not against bagging (even if I personally don't do it), but I do feel it was a tad too easy to do pre-patch so I think Nintendo slightly nerfing it so that it's a bit more strategic was a good compromise. I don't even think bagging can be completely removed due to the game's core item mechanics.
I think this is a good take
Hot take but the changes to miniturbo charging in Wii was the best change the series made. I'm glad that you don't have to give yourself a sore thumb just to have a fighting chance online.
Think many agree. I enjoy both, but the change definitely made newer games much more approachable.
Very Nice Explanation of Bagging in MK8D!
This type of conflict exists anytime there are serious/competitive players on a "casual" game. The irony of being told to "just play the game" by people who can't conceive of deeper strategies than just mindlessly driving forward and subjecting yourself to item spam hell. Unfortunately trying to talk sense usually doesn't work because they just don't approach the game with the same mindset that we do. And that's fine, casual players have every right to enjoy the game how they want to. Neither side should be telling the other side they're playing incorrectly.
I agree. It just becomes a problem when one side starts being disrespectful to the other.
Great video. Although I don't like to bag myself, I don't mind bagging itself and understand how it can be a viable tactic in many cases, so just part of the game. Honestly, I kinda just haven't been on Twitter/X for now so haven't seen the drama. I just posted a clip of me getting dunked into the toilet of SCS by a red shell and promptly closed the app lmao
Very well put. You gave an incredibly level-headed take on the situation, with consideration to the deeper and more long-term implications of the bagging nerf. It’s a discussion that warrants a proper and calm look such as this one. As someone who felt pretty bad seeing the responses to Mankalor’s tweet, I hope that many will see this video and reconsider their thoughts on the situation overall. Will definitely share this video in a few places.
Also, I see you, Popple. The Shadow Thief will always have a place in my heart. 🫡
4:30 flc cameo = instant like
ÙvÚ Really Good Video, super well spoken 😊
I think I can sum this up as BOTH sides being as toxic and also valid as each other, neither side is wrong nor are they right. HOWEVER, the fact Nintendo patched it at all, should be a telltale sign that clearly, they don’t approve of this strategy, as if they did, they wouldn’t have patched it. They’re basically preventing massive stalling for “good items” as a viable strat as now if you do so, your now even more likely to lose as your better off just playing normally and hoping for the best instead of trying to bag. (Extra aside, you can turn off items in friend lobbies and make it purely on racing skills alone, which would just further show skill issues for someone who relies on bagging instead of just playing)
I appreciate the comment. There are a few things here that I think you are misunderstanding still.
You're right that Nintendo probably doesn't like it. I personally agree that this change will probably be good, too. But Nintendo's opinion isn't always and necessarily best for the game. They're highly opposed to everything Melee stands for these days, but despite that, Melee still has the most widespread appeal even in an era with Ultimate, an excellent game in its own right.
The idea of removing items is also an instance of the obvious solution not being the right one. Competitive MK is not like Smash. Not only would itemless be more boring, it would remove a lot of the skill involved in the game to begin with. I have a video on this called "How Items Supplement MK and Build a Better Game". Highly recommend watching that one. Speed absolutely matters, but competitive MK tests so many more abilities.
Additionally, I cannot agree with you about making this a "both sides are toxic" issue. One side was clearly the attacker here. I've seen insults hurled at many of my friends and even received a death wishes just because I felt the need to defend what we do for fun. Yes there has been pushback against this, but that pushback has been reactionary and nobody in the community is going to cross the line because our community actually bans people who can't behave themselves. Respectfully, this is a clear false equivalency, and insinuating that we are just as much at fault is justifying the rude actions of other people, and I think that is letting them off the hook for their actions. We need more people who are willing to stand up for us if anything.
@@HDRookie There’s no skill when it comes to items, not now, not ever, if there was, why not use items in competitive Smash Bros. matches? Oh wait, its because it upsets the balance and effectively makes it luck based, like Mario Kart, there is 0 skill in any way, shape or form when it comes to items, you are effectively robbing actually skilled players of a win since all it takes is 1 item right before first place finishes to change everything, to put it politely, if Items makes Mario Kart competitive, then unban all Smash Stages and also allow all items in future Tourneys, otherwise, its a hypocritical double standard. When I say toxic, I moreso mean others will downplay someone else’s criticisms saying to just play the game by effectively saying “let us play how we want, we wanna circumvent Nintendo’s methods” which is as desperate as it is sad and pathetic. Either give me legitimate evidence of these horrible things (which I condemn and don’t consider them part of the legitimate criticism crowd that are saying to just play the game normally since even I am well aware sandbagging is a waste of time if you REALLY wanna compete/go for first place) or it didn’t happen compadre.
To just test your racing skills, a TT vs. mode would be quite good, because there are still lag bumps and drafts, which can give you an unfair advantage.
Regarding items: It's RNG which items you get, but it's skill how you use them. It also requires skill to keep the RNG factor as low as possible. Someone who has no skill when it comes to the item system will not know the distances when you get stars and shocks, will not know bullet extensions and will stay in 8th place. Item Play requires a lot of knowledge about the game's mechanics.
There are also things like motion glider, quick activation of smart steering, dodging blues with a shroom, wall dodge reds, predicting shocks, sniping, strategic golden spots for chaining at the next set, the timer of ghosts and stars for lap 3 ending situations etc.
These are things you need to know and master to stand out from players who can drive just as well as you.
@@oppa.24 Understand I am not a person who plays online unless with friends and even then, I play with items off, having a race determined by if you get the right items to stay in first or even catch up is dumb, I’ve went through 20+ years of Mario Kart to know this first hand. In most games, it’s about the better player skill wise, not if they use items correctly. Because all it takes is 1 blue shell to ruin an entire race or item spite at that. Competitive Smash Bros bans items because even they know that having an item can unfairly tip a game in someone’s favor, if you aren’t good enough to win off of your racing skills alone and NEED items, you and your community need to learn to move past items on a competitive level and learn to get good at the courses instead
@@AWMonopolyMan What you describe are preferred playing styles. As far as that is concerned, nobody has to dictate anything to anyone. And that's why the community doesn't have to change the clearly preferred way of playing with items. But to say item play does not require skill is simply not true, for reasons I have already described.
In my first worldwide race last night since Wave 6 dropped a few days ago, about three-quarters of the lobby except for a Pauline player, a Mario player, and Me who was using Diddy Kong immediately tried to sandbag like before. The race was on Cheese Land btw. Imagine the surprise the baggers had when they started obtaining Bananas, Green Shells, and Mushrooms when before the patch would have been stronger items. This cost them a lot of time, but they were able to catch up to the Mario player and Me later near the middle of lap 3 thanks to off-road cuts and the busted Bill Extension. I only won that race thanks to pulling Triple Shrooms in 2nd place at the second item set before the U-Turn despite being relatively close to the Mario player at the time who got Blue Shelled shortly after.
In short, if Bagging is a better option because I get comboed early in the race, I will do it. If not, I will attempt to front-run for as long as I'm able to.
The change is going to be helpful on tracks like Cheese Land I think. The problem is how much bagging is currently incentivized on tracks like this. Perhaps it will get closer to normal courses, that have a more healthy balance with running/bagging.
@@HDRookieOnly time will tell whether that happens on Cheese Land or other bagging-friendly tracks, but I do agree with you.
I think my issue with snaking and fire hopping is that it gives you early onset arthritis 😂 Nah but for real tho, those techniques are just overly monotonous and overly repetitive on a basic level (at a high level you need to understand when and where to do it). It places your attention on frequent execution rather than the race itself, the players, and the items. Just look at Wii as a good example, a game that has high level tech, but no snaking or fire hopping.
Part of the progression comes from mastering these techs though. When it becomes second nature, players will start being able to open up to other things. It is great as a reward to skilled players - but it is undeniably a barrier to entry.
I appreciate you defending bagging, it's probably when i have the most fun playing the game.
Not so much defending bagging, but pointing out why it's done. I agree with the nerfs, but the Inaccuracies of the takes I saw online had to be addressed.
Good video
i wonder is balance and Qol changes will still come even after wave 6
Definitely going to be interesting to see.
I saw Lavar Ball, I liked.
Man of culture
10:45 what about on rock rock mountain where if you're starting last or close to it, you auto bag?
Last place is a great place to start if you want to frontrun actually. Having 5 coins immediately and access to mushrooms first set is a big advantage on tracks like RRM.
if i did not buy the DLC, are the Cars upgrades (new Hitbox and new stats for the cars and rollers) still updated??
Yes
Yeah, the balance patch applies universally. Only way to make it work.
This only benefits my play style
People are complaining how Mario kart is a skill based game, but also about how it’s a luck based game. What do you want the game to be based on? I think the balance between the two is fine but the bagging nerf was needed. I think this update will be for the best but I don’t play at those level so I can’t really know. I never try bagging cause it is actually very skill based so this change won’t affect me much overall. Being from the more casual part of the player base I think that both the one that are insane good at the games and the ones who haven’t learned how to drift yet should be respected by Nintendo so that everyone can have fun in different ways and different modes. You don’t need to know every shortcut or ever strategy on every track, just play the game how you can, there’s for sure a mode, a character combo and a play style that fits your taste
I think MK does a good job of this is already too. Spot on 👏
You know what would've been cool about the Jukebox: if there were live remixes of the music tracks for tracks not in the game. It would have been great to hear what the team could have done if they were in the BCP, and could be used for either retro remakes in later games or mods to this game.
Gotta save some tunes for later :^)
Personally I never do bagging strats it's either race to win or never play the game at all in regards to putting effort into the game is concerned. I think of bagging strats as a method for the Mario Kart Elite gamers to only put half measured effort into a race.
That isn't really the case, but maybe it could be seen that way in ordinary worldwides. For high level competition, bagging doesn't guarantee you anything at all. It's done out of necessity to not go into a home stretch in a terrible situation more than it is a tool to reliably win.
I thought it was title "Did Wave 6 ended a bag?". lol
I think the new changes to bagging could make some shake ups in 6v6 tournaments which could be interesting, but idk we really just have to wait and see how everything turns out.
Also yeah the outrage on twitter was just absolute insanity, and not to be mean but it feels like these people really need to go outside. Unfortunatley it's just a factor of twitter at this point, I've seen it happen so many times not only in the Mario Kart community but in many communities on twitter. If it's not people getting dogpilled because they play the game wrong it's people getting dogpilled over an opinion they have of a game in any other community, and it genuienly sucks in my experience, because it just makes any type of interesting discussion inmediatley get violent, and as someone who like's to listen to everyone's opinion, even the people that I disagree with, it sucks.
I tried making a video to try and see if the discourse would change in absolutley any way, but unfortunatley it seems everyone has already made up their mind.
Everyone believes they're right and that no research is required. It's easier to move on your day than to think about your words and if they affect other people too. My thought is that if you want to have real discussions with people, we can't get bent out of shape over their words, even if they are largely unfair. Only thing we can do is stand our ground and act in a way that makes a few of them consider if there is more to this, even if most likely won't.
shortcat sent me :)
Welcome 🙂
Regarding your comment on Invincibility, you seem to not be aware of the fact that the scaling for the stat was adjusted.
Teddy Buggy has the exact same invincibility duration as before the patch despite losing 0.50 of the stat itself.
Yeah, that information was not widely discussed until after this video. Very happy about that!
I read the outros :)
A real one 💯
Is 150 or 200cc better for competitive play and why? Genuinely asking
It depends who you ask, but great question. Most people prefer to play 150cc, citing the best balance between speed and strategy. A lot of people find item spam to be a bit more effective in 200cc, or the mode to be laggier.
200cc is probably even a little underdeveloped due to less people playing it, but time trailers and top online players still push it. The top shelf 200 players are probably even more dominant because of the greater discrepancy between their skill and just an ordinary higher ranking player.
As for strats, it's hard to say. Some 150 strats are also quite hard.
@@HDRookie Thank you for the detailed answer!
Bagging was fun for the most part but I never complain about at all and to see the they nerfed Bagging but still possible but they made it a more skill based now to where theirs less shocks and boos and more skill based where we have to smuggle the items to a top spot while trying to to get Mario Karted in the process which I think bagging should have been more skill based and I’m glad that nerd it makes online races more interesting to see what strategy other players have and reminds me of MK7 bagging/ item smuggling strategies that players did online including myself to make it fun online and races where more interesting nonetheless.
I do think the change actually does very little. Kind of just provided people with a reason to complain, it seems.
@@HDRookie It does give a reason for people to complain again but it should not be that noticeable online though for players to notice it online.
Funky Kong did not need to return
I could see Mario Kart 8 Deluxe does get a “Battle Course Pass” DLC of Battle Stages in the future.
Im afraid that’s least likely. They’re pretty clear that wave 6 is the end of new content in 8 deluxe
Definitely think this is it, but a fun thought.
toad's turnpike, snow land, and especially baby park got worse
Thank god someone had to say it. W rookie as always
I hope bagging becomes counterproductive.
I think you need a little bit of it. This change may be helpful
Isnt it strange that even though Funky kong is in the game now, we are still seeing character diversity in online mode
It's because he isn't overpowered anymore. Funnily enough, he would've been a very strong character before the Wave 4 patch.
I noticed that Nintendo balancing invincibility correlates with two things: 1) Hitbox size, I'm guessing as a way for largers vehicles/tires to get spammed less 2) The popularity of the vehicle part. Many times Nintendo has nerfed the invincibility of popular parts to make them worse than reskins that would otherwise have the same stats, and I'm guessing that's their way of equalizing the popularity of parts. This doesn't actually solve people choosing one particular meta build, whatever is the best, people will choose it. I like to call this Nintendo's game of musical chairs: sure a new built gets their chance to be the new meta, but now people will complain about that, and now we're back to square one.
I can understand it for characters like Petey. Going after usage stats is lame though imo.
@@HDRookie Yeah
People who harrass others for simply talking about a strategy in a video game need to growup
Best update ever.
Makes it so Auto Accelerate is forced Online with Randoms :). Generally curious on how that would play out.
In regular worldwides, maybe? That'd be atrocious for actual matches though.
Cheese land is playable kinda yay
When it comes to Internet discourse, and in this specific instance, Mario Kart players going at each other's throats over bagging, in terms of where I stand on all this or which "side" I'm on? Personally... I just choose not to care. At the end of the day, as someone who just wants to enjoy the game and have fun, it simply isn't worth it. Other people who are more passionate about the topic can express their opinions all they want (as long as they do so in a respectful manner), but I'd rather just stay out of it. For me, it's the best way to avoid any unnecessary conflict and getting caught in the crossfire.
I get it, but it's easier to take this stance if you're uninvolved. For our community, the choice is to either engage with people who hate you or to just get bullied sadly
I've never had a huge problem with it, though it can be highly annoying when there is someone on a map like GBA Snow Land, who is purposefully bagging just to keep pulling blue shells and power items to troll/grief other players who are actually trying to race (which has happened to me). While this update doesn't really "solve" that problem, it at least makes it harder to pull off.
Don't get me wrong, I love item smuggling, it is hilarious, fun and takes skill to pull off correctly, but when a significant portion of players on maps like GBA Cheese Land are just sitting around waiting for a bullet bill to do the race for them, I think it was more than deserving of a nerf (though this could also be mitigated by nerfing bullet extension zones.)
I think the problem with tracks like cheese land is that they're just designed badly. bill extensions in general are awful for the game imo, at its worst they centralize the entire item system on the bullet and are way too powerful.
I agree the change will help here. But the critics are so loud that they're not even listening to the fact that competitive players don't even hate this change lol.
Snaking
Fire Hopping
Bagging
What's next?
Maybe next game everyone will demand participation trophys at the end of every race 🏆
Nerfs always cater to weak players and they're still never satisfied.
I don't think people realize that the game they would ultimately ask for is one with zero interesting gameplay.
200cc players rn not dealing with bagging in the first place
Wouldn't be too confident about that now 😅
my thoughts on the bagging changes, I really don't care about it cuz bagging is still a viable strategy and i think the people who dont like it should just grow up instead of arguing over a kids racing game and if they dont like bagging and the meta they should play offline instead where bagging is useless and where they can use what ever combo they want without being at a disadvantage and if they do play online these casual players should just friend rooms with other casual players
I can understand the perspective that sometimes you want to play online without tryhards but I think the line on what a tryhard is and what is someone just playing the game has become blurred
@@HDRookie i like playing against tryhards but what i meant was that the people who dont like playing against tryhards should stick to offline and amazing video btw
People asked for fire hopping to be removed?
Oh yeah. Was a big point of discussion ahead of Deluxe because we didn’t know if it was a direct port or not.
I didn't know a simple piece of learnable tech would be so argued about
@gamerjohn7566 well, it wasn't much of an argument like this turned into. Just a bunch of opinion stating
Fair enough
I haven't started watching the video but wtf is that wave 4 ass combo at the beginning
it was necessary for that race, i ran the calcs
HDRookie: You analysis is wrong, because if your analysis is correct then Nintendo would not have nerf bagging, reason Nintendo nerf bagging because everytime someone does bagging they always win even against very good players even in non bagging race this makes it more fun and fair for everyone, and now they even patch more of the bagging so now if you stay in the back on purpose at the same item box set now even moving forward into it gives you bad item, I did not test going out of bounce with that new patch but I'm really sure if you do on purpose to go out of bounce it would not allow you to bag. I think the only item mode that allows bagging is custom item, even if you leave them all on. However I did not test it yet, but maybe official custom item mode if everything is on, all of the item shuffle with each other frequency of apperance, so that is why I thought bagging might work because of that. I did testing I went offline 2 player pick vs mode so I can pick the official Customize item, and turn off CPU, I kept all item on, then while player 2 does nothing me player one in first place I got a fire flower in first place and that is an item in both normal item, and frantic item that you can never have in first place, and then while staying in the same row while staying in first place boomerag another item you can't receive in first place.
What you said at the beginning is completely false. There is an inherent risk to bagging, that I displayed in the Bone Dry Dunes clip around 7 minutes into the video. If something goes wrong while bagging, it is incredibly hard to catch up. The idea that sandbaggers always win is not true, and never has been.
If you were to look up the LAN videos that Mankalor (a notorious/popular sandbagger) posts on his CZcams, he often takes a bagging approach (even pre patch), and not only does he not always win, he actually usually doesn't. I play these matches and always focus on playing up front, and while I haven't won every time, I have won the most LANs in our local scene. If bagging = easy wins, I would be doing it at these tournaments too, but I don't, because it's not even optimal.
The players who have a near perfect win rate through sandbagging in a worldwide do so because they are just better at the game than their opponents. They would also have a near perfect win rate through frontrunning as well in these lobbies. It takes talent to be able to win in general, sandbagging has often just been a more fun approach in doing so b/c each race is quite different.
Nintendo likely patched it because of complaints about it, which is reason enough for them. Something does not have to be overpowered for it to be changed. Saying that is the confirmed reason is definitely an assumption, because the premise that bagging was unbeatable is not true. Besides, the update was a really minor change in the grand scheme. If it were actually true that bagging was unbeatable, it would still be unbeatable. You can still get 2 powerful items in the back, and even though you can't roll 3 or 4 times anymore, you could never carry more than 2 items to begin with. It is a nerf, but not a massive one.
You are clearly just trolling since you have to write 4 paragraphs to prove your false points, and I'm not going to read 4 paragraphs of someone that is clearly trolling. If you really f$en care that mush about bagging then only play customize item mode only with everything on. You can complain all you want about bagging being remove fron Normal item and frantic mode, I just don't care what you think about it. Regardless what you say Nintendo agree that it is considered busted, so that is why they remove it, and writing a entire book saying something is fair when it is clearly not fair, will not change the fact that it is not fair. You are just a child that throws a tempertantrum just because you do not have what you want.
@SuperNickid I don't even sandbag, dude. The reason why I know it was never broken is because I usually beat the people who do. It didn't need a nerf - I actively choose not to do it because it's not really that strong.
You probably should read if you're going to take the time to respond, because you made a false assumption about who I even am.
The easiest way bagging could have been dead in mk8dx is if they never added the coin to the game. Since it would have gotten rid of the introduction of double item boxes.
Edit: bagging is like maining characters like zelda or sonic in ultimate, while you can do it, you’ll get hated for doing so. Also the only time I think bagging is great & won’t make someone hate you is exclusively in team based modes.
I don't know if I agree with the coin thing. Honestly though, I can see where some of the frustration comes from. Bagging in the average worldwide race is pretty unnecessary.