Backwards Hollow Base Wadcutter .38 Special - Ballistic Test (VS Traditional Wadcutter)
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- čas přidán 13. 06. 2022
- Testing out the Hornady 148 gr hollow base wadcutter loaded both traditionally seated forward as well as backwards (inverted) as a hollow point. Hodgedon Titegroup 3.5 gr (traditional) and 3.3 gr inverted, seated to case mouth slight roll crimp over nose, Winchester sm pistol primer. Testing in 10% Clear Ballistics with and without 1/4" MDF in my 2" and 4" barrel revolvers. Always appreciative of any channel help :) www.patreon.com/user?u=5828221
- Sport
I wanted to mention the smoking issue. First off, I didn't get leading but also I wanted to mention that any smoke is caused by Hornady's wax coated knurled bullet, it's the wax burning. Also MOST importantly is that the smoking was actually very minor. What you see towards the chronograph and gel block is rays of light coming through the trees, so what the camera picked up more or less tripled the amount of smoke that I could see. When you see my 25 yard shooting that's where the smoke level was to me the entire time shooting. Sometimes cameras and lighting exaggerate things.
I tried backwards wadcutters in my SP101 3" 327. 98 grain Speer HBWC seated 1.240" not flush in 32 H&R mag brass 3.0 grains Titegroup roll crimp. Fly straight and accurate at 50 feet. Probably too hot for a H&R revolver. You might want to confirm from manual or work up.
Back in the late 70's, when my dad was hand loading backwards wadcutters for my mom, she was a nurse and carried a 38 snubbie in her purse for protection walking to her car at night, we didn't have ballistic gel available. Instead we tested using wet phonebooks. There was a huge difference between the backwards wadcutters when compared to regular wadcutters and lead round nose. As better defensive rounds came out and became regularly available, she switched to commercial stuff but we still have a few of the old boxes of the 38 special backwards wadcutters up on the shelf in the reloading room. Nice comparison test, thanks for doing and posting it.
Thanks. I have noticed that hitting hard things they do really mushroom. A few years ago I shot a frozen gallon of water and the backwards one just splatted and got caught an inch in. Must have been an inch diameter at that point.
I, too, fooled with reversed HBWC in the 70’s. Even put gas checks on what had been the nose, and loaded some to .357 levels (Speer swaged 148 HBWC). In general, it’s not a super stable bullet when reversed. But if it does stabilize in your gun and it hits square, you can get great expansion. Sometimes they angle off and just collapse that big opening. Didn’t have ballistic gel back then. If I did it again, I’d compare performance between the 1 in 18-3/4 twist S&W, the 1 in 16 twist Blackhawk, and the 1 in 14 twist Python. Can’t hotrod a forward facing HBWC or you risk blowing the skirt. If you go this route, shoot enough to know that your recipe works dependably in your gun. But there is real potential here.
I said Taurus 686 at the beginning lol.
At 45 seconds you also made a slip on the tongue
I feel like that could be a meme.
Old school wadcutters are a great practice and carry round for a snub nose they don't need much special to do special things
Now this was special! Thanks for the post, this sort of modern testing of classic reloads can’t be found anywhere else I know. 👍😎
Soft lead is the way to go at low velocities. That's what made black powder guns so deadly. Backwards WC is the best way to go with snubbies. Being an older guy, I knew this back in the late 70's.
I was conceived in the late 70's!
I began loading reversed base wads and caaried them in my derringer boot gun on the street as a backup. I got curious and found a nose punch for reloading lead round nose bullets. I started using it to "size" and reshape the noses into a shape similar to a hollow-point traditional. I worked on velocity versus leading, as wads are so SOFT lead. I found I could drive them at about 900-950fps without leading the S&W or RUGER revolvers. I went hunting with a couple of friends for squirrels. The older man of our group loved squirrel stew and some other dish his wife made for him. They were using .22 in rifles. We drove slowly watching for squirrels in the winter bare trees. We saw one about 15 yards up in a tree and we stopped, and while my friends were trying to get their rifle free from the car I stepped out, rested my 4' Model 19 loaded with the modified wads, on the door frame and shot one round. The squirrel had been peeking over the top of a branch/trunk area, and i sighted just above the branch and fired. The squirrel did a multi back spin out of the tree and landed at the base of the tree. While both partners were shouting their amazement at my revolver prowess, I walked over and picked up the deceased rodent. It's whole head was GONE! Vernon, the elderly gent thanked me and said it was the best tasting squirrel he had ever eaten.
Soon after that I duty qualified with that load (it was mild and VERY accurate) and was carrying it on duty, and off, as I did for many years after. I gave a box of them to my uncle, who was a sheriff deputy, and unfortunately his son, 14 years old, decided he was going to kill his mom and dad. My uncle went looking for his Ruger and thought I'll bet ***** has it. He went out to an outbuilding and his son threw down on him. He turned rapidly to avoid the shot(Korea survivor). The bullet hit him in his scapula and he fell. My rotten cousin stepped over him and my uncle asked him to give him the gun, and died. The criminal cousin went around the corner of the garage and his mom asked "What in the hell is going on out here!!?" just as my cousin turned the corner. He fired one round into her abdomen and she dropped and died with in 3 minutes. Autopsies showed massive destruction of lung and heart tissue (Uncle) and Liver and other organs badly damaged in my aunt, sadly. The autopsy doctor said they both looked like they had been shot with a .410 contact wound. So, sadly, the efficacy of the loads were shown. That was 40 years ago, and I still ache with the memories.
That is so sad. What a terrible memory for you to carry. My heart hurts for you.
Back in the day, (1980's) I shot in PPC matches with a S&W 686 with 4" barrel. I would shoot wadcutters and they were very accurate even at the 50 yard stages of the matches.
I would buy reloaded wadcutters from a guy for $45 per 1000 rounds with my brass exchange. I got very proficient using speedloaders too.
Yeah, those were truly the good old days. Wish I never sold that 686.
I recently found your channel and want to commend you on your excellent and interesting content, especially since very few channels address revolvers these days! Subscribed.
... Loaded inverted HBWC in the 70's and 80's ,, used to practice on vegetables from the garden ,, watermelons and gourds .. prove to be very effective for a reasonably short distance and typical wadcutter very accurate ... even with low grains/ pressure performed excellent at about 800 fps +/- ... out of 2" or less barrels and also a pocket Deringer ... Also had some from a company called "Alberts" (maybe spelled wrong) and still have some ,but have been sitting boxed since the 80's .... they had a steel cone cast inside and were probably the start of the "Hydra-shock" designs....
..Speer wadcutters ,both bevel base and hollow base had a cannelure to apply a light roll crimp ..... the Alberts were smooth cast and used a taper crimp .... These were the start of many hours of combinations and trigger time .... all of these were suited for personal defense loads ,, not enough for game or distance ... crowd control tissue damage w/ limited penetration ... .. not steel car doors ...
.... This video really stirred the memory back to a great time ... ... Always knew if jumped by a bushel of fruits or vegetables (todays thug standards) ,, you could handle the job ...
Old skool rules again
I love this old school stuff. They used it in NYC Det. Cirillo.
Glad to see you testing reloads. 👍
Very cool test of an interesting concept. Thanks Gun Sam!
Great test! First heard about the backwards .38 special 148 wadcutter load in the early 70’s. I really enjoyed the gel test! Thanks
great testing! Thank you.
What a cool topic/video. I never knew about this. i love the miscellaneoous revolver content, thank you for passing this along gun sam
Really great ammo test! With .38 ammo so unavailable or outrageously expensive it is the information that I have wanted for reloading +P options. Thanks, keep up the great work!
Thanks. Loading these up traditionally with a little different powder is also a good way to have good rounds. The Titegroup I used is a bit hot and smokey, accurate nonetheless. I was ringing steel at 75 yards easily in the snub after this test.
@@GunSam I was taking notes while watching the video. I use Bullsey powder, got plenty of brass and loads, now all I need is someone to have primers, my stash is dwindling.
Nice grouping Brother👍
Appreciate the information!
I've been watching and subbed for a while. Not sure I've left a comment for your channel yet. You do some interesting stuff, Sam. Very nice range set up. Thanks for the video.
Love my .38 special revolvers so this helps me know
Thanks for sharing
Regards from New Washington
Excellent test
Thanks
Great test Sam, really impressed with the results.👍👍
Thank you
Thanks for sharing your videos and keep them coming please.
Great video, and information. Thanks for sharing.
Thanks
Good and interesting video. Thanks for sharing and take care.
Your video’s are quite informative and always have an interesting concept.
Keep up the good work👍🏻🇺🇸🇺🇸
Thanks
As I grow older, I realize the fudds were right about a lot of stuff.
A cool visit with a classic home-cooked load.
Way back in the late 1980s when I started handloading, I experimented with these. I even loaded the backwards wadcutters in .357 brass. I don't remember the powder measures but they weren't crazy. We just shot wooden planks back then.
Thank you. Exactly the kind of test firing video I was looking for. My reloads for my Smith & Wesson Model 36 2" barrel is using that exact hbwc bullet with a powder charge using titegroup, hp38 and Unique in the no more than 800fps range for target practice. My preference is the TiteGroup. I use this same bullet forward facing with the little hotter powder charge as you stated for my self-defense load in this gun. This gun is a blast to shoot especially up to 30 yards and more and extremely accurate in the 10 yard range for me. People that reply that say this gun can't shoot long range accurately have never watched Hickok45 hit his 80 yd gong with his Smith & Wesson 36 2-in consistently along with other very good shooters doing long range hits with this model gun. Thanks again for your video.
Can't wait to be able to pick up the S&W 686+ that I just bought. I can come get it next Monday. :-)
One of the few ammo test I have been looking for, keep up the great work
Thanks for watching!
Interesting. When I apprenticed at a small gun shop my boss told amazing tales of this type of load. I loaded a hundred rounds using SPEER bullets but sold them at a gun show. I honestly expected more expansion, to the point where there would be long jagged petals. Thanks for uploading
This is a test everyone talks about but never does. Very useful data here. Please test in a 357 magnum next. The Lee reloading manual has data for magnum wadcutters.
Thank you.
Atomic Arms offers a factory load. I have some loaded now in backup 357's.
I seat them so the "base" is at the same depth as a 158gr bullet in 357 cases about 1/4in exposed, loaded to 38+P levels.
Ran one into a jug of plain water and expanded to about 70cal almost breaking apart.
Cool video thanks.
Nice Job
My experience years ago was that reverse wadcutters would key hole on paper targets at 50 feet.
Back in the day when I was shooting a lot with a group of old school police officers, they would tell me about these loads. I always carried a 6" in a shoulder rig. My reloads would not be wad cutters because I would sometimes fumble.
Thanks for explaining the reason for the smoke. For a second I thought it was black powder! 😂
Underated channel. Awesome video dude.
An old cop said they chose these wad cutters over the OLD style 180 round nose. Not for car doors, but backup revolvers in a sweat case scenario!
I load reversed hbwc to +P 38 ballistics in 38 and 357 cases but seated out so base is at same depth of 158ge swc in the case. Shot into plain water jug expanded to double caliber to point that "petals" nearly broke off.
I don't worry about leading as they won't be fired that much, and reloads are +p+ jhp ammo.
Very old school, but still works well. Just remember that is you are in a state that bans hollow point bullets, the inverted HBWC will be treated as a hollow point bullet.
That's only New Jersey ( in the U.S. ). Federal EFMJ aka Guard Dog , and Cor Bon's PowerBall have been approved there .
@@margarethouse404 As has Hornady Critical Defense. That doesn't mean some local cop won't arrest and charge you with having hollow point ammunition - that actually happened in NJ.
You should try this in the 327 mag.
Great testing of old school concepts. Excellent shooting Sam. Thank you for your informative and educational content. 🎩🎱🏁🎯♠♦♣♥🌼🏵🌸💙💛🔱🌻🇺🇸🍀
Thanks. I had fun making this one because I had time to think about how i'm gonna film it while I load the ammo
40,100 ++++ Subs Great Job !!
Thanks
Atomic Ammo made commercially available +P 38 special reverse wadcutters but I recall it didnt do so well in testing
I think I remember seeing that a few years ago. Haven't seen the ammo come up in searches in years.
I inherited my pop in laws m36 s&w. He was a g smith and loaded at home.
This is what was loaded in his EDC (m36).
Those did pretty good forward or backward. The Federal HST 38 special +p is supposed to be based on a backward wadcutter and it didn't perform as well. We used to load .177 caliber pellets backward in our air rifles. Seemed to have a whole different affect on small game.
... not really true ... HST is a jacketed bullet with a huge ashtray cupped about 1/2 down ,, solid from there ,, similar to any other jacketed bullet but the mass is bottom half ... and seated deep in the casing ....
I enjoyed t video . probably 35-38 years ago I did the same test of the backwards 38 hollow base wadcutters . about same results. accuracy not great and expansion not much. I was a little surprised on expansion because those Hornady wc are a softer lead with low brinnel hardnessfactor.you would thank they would have great expansion but not so.so I quit loading them backwards.but John cerrilo if I spelled it right was a famous new York police detective who survived 21 gun fights and was a user of 38 wadcutters on duty.he preferred deep penetration over a expanding bullet traveling partially in the body. papa wishing you well
Good video. If I'm not mistaken, the 686 is a Smith and Wesson.
It took me quite a while of racking my brain But I figured it out... I finally figured out who exactly it is that you guys sound just alike.... The Idaho painter ( on CZcams as well)...
I sound like me....but i'm surprised I didn't get the comment I have gotten 500 times, that I sound like Jeff Goldblum.
I think the WC at less Vel would be better than a store bought Slow JHP that didn't expand ..... with the same ft/lbs I would go with a WC . Some store bought 38 Sp are on the slow side from a snub .
I should load some more, or just do more store bought tests. I tend to do store bought whenever it exists and save the hand load videos to these type and Superpolice, .327 mag etc.
The heavier loads in the snub are either not going fast enough to expand or are too punishing in recoil, same for the reverse wadcutter. Decent load for a four inch....
Great stuff Sam, glad you’re a mind reader also lol 👍✌️😃🇺🇸
The original hydro shock was a reversed wadcutter with a post in the center.
First time I've seen this test inspite of it being an old idea. I did one round once by mistake, and it went wide.
Great planning & execution of this experiment !
Not a fan of the smoke of Hornady WC.
I like how these are accurate and don't over penetrate.
These are bullseye shooting bullets.
Thanks. Generally they don't smoke too bad with other powders. Also the lighting contrast where I film makes it seem so much worse.
👍😊 they need a marketing team with a good publicist.
I wish you had a high-speed camera so you could see the wound cavity expand and contract
125 Atlanta Arms vs 158 Freedom Munitions xtp vs 158 Fiocchi....is what left to test from ling barrel...if none expand will be a good lesson don't trust cheap HPs but I think atleast 1 will if not all and interested to see velocities. Thanks
You should try the backwards wadcutter with the .32 sw long .32 mag and .327 federal mag.
I remember buying a box of the backwards wadcutters in that time frame, was 19 and thought they looked wicked cool, I think I still have 1/2 of them somewhere, the place was selling aluminum bullets too as 'hypervelocity' ammo but I passed on that.
I'd heard the wadcutter would cause more bleeding since it would cut a hole in the tissue rather than 'icepick' it, did you see anything like that in the gel when recovering the bullets? Or maybe in the front facing of the target(I know the mdf looked the same either way.)
Back in the Day: I was THERE. If this was such a great idea, why wasn't Remington-Winchester-Federal-CCI/Speer-Acme-Brand X... why weren't they all selling a backward facings hollow base wadcutters? As a last ditch thing, maybe. I have carried a 2" .38 Spl for more than 4 decades and I was never sold on this idea.
@Frank Hinkle…Calm down Frank! Sam wasn’t saying this was the best idea in the world, or something that everyone should do. He was just testing the concept to see what kind of results he would get. IMO I think you missed the point of the video.
@@airborneinfantrynstuff489 I get it and I really appreciate Sam's tests & evaluations. I'm just saying that for over 40 years I've been hearing about the backwards hollow point wadcutter and and this is the first I ever saw of ANY advantage to it. But as Sam says, to get the effect out of a 2" you are getting up into the the .357 Magnum pressures. We now have specialty ammo available to us in "Short Barrel" loadings. They are expensive, and here in SoCal about $1 per round. Sam points out how cheap these are for a hand-loader. There is that.
I can share one reason. Back in the 70's we only had supplies to load WC's. Bulls Eye and PPC were the matches we shot. A couple of the police we practiced with suggested this method.
The concept seemed to work with our primitive test targets. Cheers!
Back in the 1960's the selection of store bought component bullets was slim , and was before the era of reasonably effective jhp bullets .
And in this context , all HB wadcutters are the same . They're designed for sealing the base with mid range aka target velocity , and stability or expansion when seated backwards was an accidental side effect .
FWIW - The original original Hydra Shok ( when they were small independent operation before being bought out by Federal ) was essentially a backwards HB wadcutter , with a small post added .
It's been years since I played with the reverse hbwc. Have you tried fitting gas checks to them,? I don't own the equipment to try that.
Wow seems like some pretty good loads- man you have me thinking I really need to get a reloading setup for 38 special…
Wadcutters are the perfect load to start with. Even max charges listed are like 12,000 PSI and you can just, push them bullets flush to case mouth, don't need to even crimp if you don't want to, they aren't slipping out unless you shoot them.
@@GunSam oh man… a single stage press is fine for these too, right? And I’d need small pistol primers?
@@crankygunreviews Yeah .38 Special is always small pistol primers. If desperate you can use small pistol magnum as there's not a significant difference other than the cup is a bit harder. Single stage presses work fine. I bought a Lee Anniversary single stage set in 2015 and it's still the only setup I use.
Adding a gas check would allow for greater velocity and reduced leading.
I didn't get any leading though.
Am I correct in thinking in the UK THE backwards ones were used effectively as THWACKERS or something? Maybe in Weblys? At 875fps that is great performance could u get that in 2" a like 3.5 grains and would just be plus p? Hey Sam don't u have 2-3 more .357 loads to test I sent you 125 and 158s? Can u get to that? Thanks
I have them but I get confused at which is which and keep trying to sort them out. I might get some newly boxed version to try. The reason I been putting it off is I have a feeling they won't perform very well.
Would be interesting to see the berry's at 357 mag velocity, maybe get them to expand.
I tried them in the past, even in water jugs I didn't get expansion.
Also the Philadelphia police carried them in their model10s
I'm a little curious to see this same type of test but done with .32 caliber hollow base wad cutters. Primarily because I want to see if those would be better alternatives to some other JHP designs. Particularly in something like .32 S&W Long.
I got a similar comment and was looking at some of those. There's only one place I found them. Personally I think my best bet is .32 H&R Mag cases. I messed around with .32 Long, .32 H&R and .327 and found that .327 you really can't play with too much for slower loads, that between .32 Long and .32 H&R I could get really consistent handloads with .32 H&R. Like .32 Long I was at maybe 750 FPS 85 gr XTP but same bullet .32 H&R mag 1,000 FPS. So in a wadcutter that's 100 gr a .32 Long might max 650 FPS, .32 H&R 900 FPS. I feel like this is where it should be. Same load in a .327 Case would lose pressure and more powder would be too hot.
Would love to see you test 45 super
I have ran a couple tests on it. But I need to get a new magazine as my Glock drops the mags. I got the KKM .45 barrel fully supported, 22 lb spring, new mag release etc, but the mags keep dropping. It has to be the magazines themselves.
@@GunSam i have a hk45 which runs it well.
Push those up to about 900-950fps, and they’d be incredible.
Interesting results, wonder how those backward wadcutters would do at .357 velocities.
I'm guessing that they would make a nasty but shallow wound cavity, breaking up and failing to get adequate penetration. And they would probably lead up the bore something fierce.
Simultaneous expansion and good accuracy with all lead HP ( -ish) bullets have a fairly narrow optimum velocity window . Backwards HB wadcutters even more so than " proper " HP molds with a 1:20 alloy .
Other brands will vary , but with Hornaday , the sweet spot is +\- 900 fps .
Interesting historical tidbit :
Jim Cirillo ( newbies look him up ) was a fan of conventional WC loaded to 900 fps. ( This was late '60s before effective HP duty ammo ) . The sharp edges would dig in and penetrate skulls at angles that .45acp fmj would deflect .
Did you get any annoying levels of leading? They looked pretty smokey. They seem to perform as well as some cheap JHP ammo. Maybe that's just foggy memory on my part though. Very economic on the powder charge though. I generally think in terms of 5-6gr for pistol loads. Although I think at that usage, the primers are still costing more these days. 😭
Not that I noticed. The Hornady bullets smoke is mostly due to the entire bullet being knurled and wax lubed on the entire surface. They actually shoot very clean. Then sometimes I get bullets that seem clean, but they are super leaded up.
@@GunSam Same brand? It would be interesting if you could load some up to 950fps out of the two inch barrel. It would be interesting to see how they perform then. I know there will be recoil. But the TiteGroup is one of the faster powders, so the extra charge shouldn't be so bad for muzzle blast. Just a thought.
@@GunSam I have a 300 round box of Hornady 158gr (.358") LSWC-HP which have the same crosshatch pattern as your HB wadcutters. SKU #10428. They don't have any drive bands or cannelure. The nose and HP cavity is kind of small, but it looks like the bullet can seat pretty deep. I assume the brass is meant to be rolled over the edge of the shoulder. Given the length of the shank and flat base, they should take up a lot of volume in the case for an efficient powder charge.
Hey what kind of holster is that I need same 1 for a ruger gp100 6inch?
Reversed Wc. Small hacksaw cut, cross style...?
use the berry's plated HBWC
no lube, no smoke, you can push them harder and they can be pushed fast enough to tumble..
I have, and I didn't get good results in this velocity range.
I've never shot wadcutters but in my 357 mag I've shot a lot of semi-wadcutters so my question is, what is the difference in performance and accuracy between them
hard cast bevel based are nearly the worst bullet flat based are better at sealing gas
Wadcutters and semi wadcutters there's a few small differences. Main difference is that a semi wadcutter is shorter even though it's usually heavier at 158 gr, so it's generally loaded to shoot faster. Also a semi wadcutter has a nose that can help guide the bullet to penetrate deeper even if loaded as light as a wadcutter. Main difference is if you had to shoot something big, like off the shelf wadcutters at 700 FPS won't penetrate that well, they will as we see, even mushroom on the correct nose end. Semi wadcutters generally won't, so they penetrate really deep in let's say, a bear.
@@GunSam thank you
Awesome now do the same with 357 mag
It is recommended by all the books that you use the same charge for the 357 Magnum gun as you do the 38 Special with these wad cutters. It is not recommended loading 357 cases with these wad Cutters and a higher charge as the more powerful charge will cause extreme leading and expansion in the cone and Barrel
How did you crimp the backwards rounds? Aren't the crimp grooves designed to be closer to the front of the bullet? It has never occured to me to load bullets backwards. Could you load a semi wadcutter backwards to get a wad cutter? Hahaha
Wadcutters don't have crimp lines. Just roll crimp over the nose or if backwards, skirt.
... taper crimp ..just snug enough to prevent slipping while gun is fired .. also improves velocity and accuracy ... ( less drag/ stripping of lead exiting casing ...)..
Did you need a special reloding die insert to load these ?
Need is a strong word. I have heard of people sanding or flipping their seat stem as the factory ones are cupped to push round-ish bullets and the seat stem upside down is flat. I suppose a purist might flip the stem so the skirt edges don't push inward, but I didn't flip the stem. I just seated with the regular seater and didn't notice too much deformation. I crimped over the shoulder anyways.
@@GunSam I have an older set of 38/357 Redding dies, that have different seating stems for this. I also have the same for 44 Special/ Magnum.
Why do wadcutters have to be seated completely in the brass?
They don't have to be, but many of them are hollow base and being seated out more would reduce the pressure and they would be super weak like 300 FPS, if you added more powder the skirts could be damaged and accuracy ruined. Running seated with the powder charge it has is perfect. With a double ended wadcutter you could seat them out pretty far and have them loaded pretty hot, and you see this with some of Buffalo Bore's wadcutters.
I thought it would shed the lead skirt
...?? lead skirt ?? .. it's all one cast bullet .. some try to use a copper gas check on it for higher velocities ,, works to some effect but will get excess lead fowling in the barrel lands ...(grooves) ...
Would you consider doing this test in a 357 with higher velocities?
I have thought about it, but the thing is that load data books basically show only .38 Special powder charges in .357 cases, so I would have to more or less guess and use a 158 gr load data to create .357 loads. Ideally I would use plated wadcutters for that test.
@@GunSam gotcha
I just dont trust any hp that isnt at least 1100 fps. I really want to see 1200, but will consider 1100’s.
@4:20 is that going in side ways ????
Probably. I have seen this a few times specifically in snubs with long bullets.
@@GunSam the 4" looked accurate
Very good... If you are interested send me a mailing address and I will ship you some original Hydra-Shok Scorpion bullets... They look just like the Hornady but have the Hydra-Shok post in the center...I think you will be surprised in the totally different way they act...
Slug - O
the bots found your ch
What's that mean?
@@GunSam you have bots acting like people .. they tag comments likely hokey $#!T
@@GunSam they are on most ch I watch ... easy to spot they leave a phone # ??