Balanced Regulators - Why/How? - Scuba Tech Tips: S09E22
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- čas přidán 25. 07. 2024
- There are many personal beliefs and some mis-information around balanced vs non-balanced regulators. Alec shows the design differences, effects on breathing effort and regulator recognition.
Watch my "Alec Peirce at the Ranch" for ranch and home ideas. / @alecpeirceattheranch
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Hi Alec & Good Morning, I enjoyed your video of the differences between balanced & unbalanced regulators. Thinking back i had about 7 teachers who i had a deep respect for to this day who made a difference in my life. Alec your in that league. I can see you have passion to help & educate others. Teachers ; Law Enforcement Officers are so terribly under paid. Be well to you and Kevin and have a good rest of the week.
Well thank you and I agree - I'm terribly underpaid!
Alec
Thanks Alec for these videos, I've learned so much!
Thanks for watching.
Alec
The things I learn that I didn’t know I wanted to lear? Thanks Alec and Kevin for teaching me something new today. 👍
Thanks for watching.
Alec
Thank you again for explaining the mechanics of how it works
Glad you picked up something new.
Thanks for watching.
Alec.
Fantastic explanation! Thanks!
Glad you enjoyed it!
You’re a great teacher!
Thanks Ron.
I'm glad you enjoyed it and hope you got something out of it.
Alec
Great explanation , again .
Glad you liked it
Another great video
Thanks for watching Matthew.
Alec
Got my a atomic Z2 1,2 and octo.. and i love it ..
A nice reg sir.
You are the best!
Thank you, glad you like these.
A
Hi Alec. Can you explain some time about the vent holes for water and environmental seal?
Would be interested how that works :)
My reg have holes (no seal) and saying "10c and above"
It's really quite simple Mikas. I'll do a video on it but simply put, every regulator must be able to sense the pressure (depth if you like) in its surroundings. That's the only way it can adjust the IP as it goes up and down so the diver gets air at the right pressure.
Every regulator has holes that allow water to enter and act on the diaphragm or piston for that purpose. Some regulators cover the holes to keep water out but they must use a flexible cover so the pressure still acts on the reg.
So, they must have holes. On some regs you can't see them, but they're there!
Take care.
Alec
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter Now that's makes sense. Thank you Alec
God bless you sir! I've been servicing my balanced regulators for a while but I was always puzzled whether the valve was upstream or downstream. I was having a hunch it was upstream, but everybody else on the bloody youtube says "the tank pressure opens the valve", and that is completely wrong in a balanced regulator. Apparently, it's neither, it's upstream-ish, for if you remove the bias spring, the regulator shuts when pressurized, but being balanced, you can push the valve open with your finger.
Glad to help bring clarity to your servicing. Thanks for watching and hope you can learn more.
A
Thanks sir 👍
Most welcome
Another gem of a video :)
I have the MK25 EVO, and S600. It does breath effortlessly whether I'm 10 or 20 meters deep. I did, however, feel the difference if I have my back to the sea bottom and facing the surface. I know it's not the normal driving position hehehe, but I was curious on how it'll perform in odd positions (I'm an engineer after all, we love testing stuff... and sometimes breaking them in the process lol)
You must have a happy wife! You are very sensitive.
There is a difference even with a good, balanced regulator but few divers would notice it.
I may take time to explain how that happens, if you haven't figured it out, in another video.
Alec
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter Hahaha thanks for the compliment :)
It'll be nice if you can make a video explaining the difference between balanced and unbalanced second stage :)
Hey Alec, where's that long hose video? Can't wait for the discussion that will follow.
Hello Mr Pierce, thank you for this video. I’m curious what your thoughts are on the balanced vs unbalanced 2nd stages?
Hey, you got the money, go for it.
If you are saving up for a nice computer, don't waste your money on a balanced 2nd.
Does that help?
Alec
Alec Peirce Scuba yes, thank you
Hello Alec, thank you very much for your informative video.
How do balanced and unbalanced regulators relate to piston or diaphragm models?
Is the unbalanced regulator always a piston?
Thanks in advance! Elena
Oh no. Both Piston style and Diaphragm style regs can be either unbalanced or balanced.
I will be doing some more videos on the different styles and how they work but the principle is all the same.
Alec
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter Thank you very much for clarifying that. I look forward to watching more of your videos. Elena
on the US diver DA aquamaster and the Royal Aquamaster, the difference is obvious, on the DA ( unbalanced, ) higher the tank presuer is, more difficult it is to breathe and more instable is the intermediate pressure, it is to the point that I made the conversion to a balanced first stage and I never regret that.
The differences are more pronounced in a 2 hose where the position of the diver versus regulator are of greater difference.
Alec
So if stage 1 is balanced, does that mean stage 2 doesn't need to be balanced as well? My Aqualung Mikron has a balanced second stage only it appears.
Alec, can you share a bit of info regarding tanks. Sizes, materials, pros cons. It a confusing topic for me
Thanks
It shouldn't be but I know it can be confusing.
I'll see what I can do.
Alec
Another clear video; wonder what the thumbs-down reaction could have against it.
Doesn't like my face I guess! Or I don't fit into his agenda.
I find it odd that a viewer would give a thumbs down but not make a comment. If my information is inaccurate, I want to know. If it is't, what the heck?
Thanks for watching .
Alec
Great video Alec, Thank you. So when you see a reg that is over balanced, that means it’s the most expensive right?! Is there a big difference between balanced and over balanced?
Nope. There is no real difference between them. And more expensive is right.
Alec
Nice👌🏼👌🏼
Thanks.
Alec
Alex, could you explain for everyone in the future about balanced and unbalanced in firsts and seconds? I breathed an unbalanced first (MK2) on a stage bottle with a bal adj Deep 6 second along with a balanced first and bal adjust second on my back gas today (Atomic ST-1). I upgraded my stage to a bal adj from a R-190 so I could de-tune it when not using and to compensate for the increased breathing resistance when the tank pressure was lo on the MK-2. You can get most of the benefits from having a balanced second vs the first. I like to run MK-2s on my stage bottles and safety bottles because they are bonehead simple and as close to bomb-proof as you will get in a 1st stage.
Ok. Let's be sure we're talking the same language.
Balanced or unbalanced 2nd stage has nothing to do with breathing resistance. In fact, in any momentary position of the diver during a dive, he will not even know if the reg is balanced or not. That's different from breathing resistance.
The 2 adjustments available on a 2nd stage are the breathing resistance (the knob on the left end that turns) and the venturi effect (usually a lever that flips up or down). Changing either of those makes a big difference to the feel of the breathing effort.
However, a balanced 2nd stage simply provides a constant rate of airflow, both volume and effort. It cannot be adjusted and is seldom even noticeable.
It's possible a diver would notice the difference between a balanced or unbalanced 1st stage but even that is moot. It cannot be adjusted and the difference only applies when comparing the feel when in different dive positions - head up or down, depth, tank pressure, etc.
Using the MK2 because it is simple and virtually bomb-proof is quite logical. With only 1 moving part, it's hard to imagine a breakdown.
Using a balanced 2nd on an unbalanced 1st will render no advantage.
Using an adjustable 2nd on any 1st (balanced or not) will allow you to change the breathing resistance (make it harder or easier to breathe) and that can be an advantage when you don't want the Safe Second to freeflow too easily.
I hope this is clear. There is no direct relationship between balancing and breathing resistance and you cannot adjust the 'balancing'.
Alec
Hey Alec, I have a video idea. Would you be able to do an upstream and downstream regulator explanation video? Including the upstream Posiedon regs. Comparing the internals of the first stage of a upstream reg vs a downstream reg.
All 1st stages are upstream; all 2nd stages are downstream. Poseidon is odd. Their 2nd stage is neither.
I'll see if I can work up a short video on that topic.
Thanks.
Alec
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter Brilliant thanks, I look forward to seeing it. Could you include the use of an over-pressure relief valve on the first stage too please, how they work and why you need them?
Hi Alec. Maybe I did not explain my comment correctly? I thought that when you go down 30 ft and there is 15 pounds more pressure that an unbalanced regulator would still produce 150 psi so you should subtract the 15 psi not add it? because if the IP was set to 13 psi then no air would flow until you went up a bit? It kind of makes sense to me (of coarse I still think the tooth fairy gives me a quarter, shows my age!)This is interesting I will have to take a cheap above water pressure gauge down with me next time and see if the IP does go up or stays the same. Always learn something from you! Thanks Owen m
The compensation for depth is kind of automatic and works the same way in balanced and unbalanced regulator. The force of ambient pressure on the piston adds to the force of the spring and the output pressure is always the same RELATIVE TO THE AMBIENT PRESSURE.
I have seen a balanced second stage. Can you please explain what is that all about? Thanks
The explanation of the balanced first stage is slightly inaccurate here. The first stage doesn't deliver air for you to breath, it delivers air for the second stage to use. If the first stage is unbalanced, the difference between lower and higher pressure affects the operation of the second stage. And yes, balancing the second stage would fix it and the same principle as for the first stage is used.
If the first stage is balanced and delivers a constant pressure, there is nothing in the second stage to balance for. So, one or another. As the first stage is mechanically less sensitive, this solution prevails.
Hey Alec, what are your thoughts on solo diving? I’m sure it was the norm a long time ago, but it isn’t even discussed in scuba training now.
In the 50's and 60's, diving alone was very common. There simply weren't enough divers to always have a buddy.
Now it is suggested that you should always have a dive buddy, and there are good, solid reasons for that.
However, there is a training program called Solo Diver or sometimes called Self-Sufficient Diver that is widely available.
It gives you the knowledge and skill so you dive alone safely.
Whether you want to dive solo or not, it's a good course.
Alec
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter How do you go about this in poor visibility maybe a video would help also the long hose video, were waiting. Would love to visit your former store a video on how you were so successful and tips opening a dive store as even in Florida they seem to come and go so quick.
Hi Alec. I had it explained to me slightly differently years ago, but not taking into effect the tank pressure on the seat? I was told with unbalanced the IP at the surface was 150 psi, when you go down 30 feet the water pressure is about 30 psi so that means the perceived IP at that depth is 150-30=120 psi and so on the deeper you go with the lower IP it supplies less volume through the same hole in the reg seat. However in a balanced reg or environmentally sealed unit the water pressure at depth helps raise the IP by pushing back against the diaphragm and spring that determine the set point. Of coarse I was also told that Santa and the tooth fairy were visiting at night ,so I could be wrong?One of these days Kevin is going to get you back for all the Jabs, beware :)take care Owen m
What???
I read your explanation 3 times and its still doesn't make sense. Owen. I think whoever told you that was BS-ing you.
If the IP is 150 at the surface and you got to 33', the water pressure pushes the piston or diaphragm with a pressure of 29.4 psi which is an increase of 14.7 over the atmospheric pressure at the surface. So now, if it were possible to read the IP, it would read 150 +14.7 = 164.7. Every increased depth of 33' adds another 14.7 psi.
In that way, the reg always delivers air to the 2nd stage at 150 psi relative to the water pressure, just as at the surface. The reg always breathes the same.
Under your scenario, the diver would eventually reach a depth where the reg won't deliver air. NOPE!
There are changes in the breathing effort in an unbalanced reg but not as you've explained.
I may have to do a second video on this.
Alec
Are regulators made both ways? Is there a price difference between a balanced and a unbalanced regulator?
In every regulator manufacturer's line-up, there are usually standard and balanced regs available.
A balanced regulator used to cost quite a bit more but not so much anymore.
Usually however, when you look at a balanced regulator there are other features that have been added that may increase the price.
So comparing a very basic reg (not balanced, no special features) with a fancier reg, be sure to take into account ALL of the added features.
Alec
Can you, please, clear up a bit of confusion about your second diagram for a balanced regulator.
There is a piston with a seal at the end ( red part at the very right of the diagram ).
Why is it there? Is there another chamber at the right? What is the purpose of it?
Thank you.
It's not a complete diagram Vlad. That seal, actually a seat, corresponds to the same seat on the unbalanced diagram. It is the seat that opens and closes the high pressure air source. I did not want to include the several other parts of the reg but only show how it's possible to have a a shaft move without being influenced by the pressure.
I may do another video only about how a balanced reg works. That will clarify things for you.
Thanks for your very good question.
Alec
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter Thank you.
Looking forward to "how a balanced reg works" video.
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunterYes, there is something missing in that diagram. Sometimes if you oversimplify something it actually become more difficult to figure out.
Alec stores selling things sometimes imply that unbalanced regulators are suitable for only shallow dives? This is not true? All regulators compensate for depth in the same way. I looked it up LOL. Air thing may be over stated for selling purposes? 2cents
Depending on your budget, breathing effort and other factors affect divers. Why do some folks swear by automatic vs manual transmissions? There are benefits but its up to each diver to decide what they want.
What is a overbalanced 1st Stage regulator?
A reg is either balanced or it isn't.
"Overbalanced" is simply a marketing term to indicate that the reg has been modified sightly, perhaps we could say improved, and so is better than a plain old balanced. The modification or improvement may be very minor and may not even be of much value.
However, as I said, a regulator is not balanced or is balanced. There is no such a thing as "more balanced".
Alec
What about a balanced 2nd?
I think a back video on 2nd stages covered that but not in the title.
No need. The explanation of the balanced first stage is slightly inaccurate here. The first stage doesn't deliver air for you to breath, it delivers air for the second stage to use. If the first stage is unbalanced, the difference between lower and higher pressure affects the operation of the second stage. And yes, balancing the second stage would fix it.
If the first stage is balanced and delivers a constant pressure, there is nothing in the second stage to balance for. So, one or another. As the first stage is mechanically less sensitive, this solution prevails.
Dive equipment failures from age sis use of storage and handling?
Not at all if properly done.
A
The funniest thing is when some regulators are called "Over Balanced":). It's just marketing strategy, " Over Balanced" is not a thing folks.
Awesome! I was just about to ask what the heck that was. Thanks!
Right Price.
See my other comment about this.
Alec
30ft dives are just long snorkeling trips 60+ is where it’s at (more lobsters 2 in Florida)
My wife and I did a dive in Key Largo many years ago. We didn't go deeper than about 25'. The dive was 1 hour and 55 minutes long. When we came up we both agreed it was a great dive.
It's amazing how your priorities change when you get older.
Take care.
Alec
This is completely wrong. There is no unbalanced 1st stage. It simple couldnt work. e.g. the Mares MR12 as well as the MR22 are both balancend (as every other 1st stage...some are "overbalanced"(Apeks), but NO ONE is unbalanced)...it has nothing to do with the design: They work exactly the same.
Balanced and unbalanced only exists with 2nd stages (balanced: Scubapro A700, Apeks, Aqualung Legend...unbalanced: All Mares 2nd stages, Scubapro MkV....).
I am not sure where you are getting your info but first and/or second stages can be balanced or unbalanced. I own the AL Legend and several other regs. Btw, it's Over Balanced first stage reg. Google "balanced and unbalanced first stage" and see how many reference you see to unbalanced first stages. If you haven't you might want to take an equipment class through whatever agency you certified with.
@@swingspst I have to admit that i mixed up balanced with compensated (as iam not a native speaker its hard, but also the manufacturers mix it up all the time).
But which actual 1st Stage ist not balanced(now i really mean balanced)?
I own 2 Poseidon Cyklon300 which are not, but these are old, really old. And the first Cyklon5000(balanced) had almost the same design as the Cyklon300(unbalanced)...you cant tell from outside(like MR12/MR22, which work exactly the same) if they are or are not balanced. But thats said in the Video. There is no reason not to by a Mares MR12 e.g..
@@hanneszett its hard to find an unbalanced first stage but they are still being produced. I bought the AL Calypso unbalanced reg for my teenage son. It's one of their best selling regs still basically because of the price point.
I probably wouldn't rely on just looking at a regulator to determine what it is but I think Alec just mentioned it more as a general 'clue' in the video was my assumption.
There are lots of different reg designs so for the length of the video he was probably keeping things simple but I think conveys a general idea of fundamental difference between a balanced vs unbalanced design. in my opinion anyway ;-)
The most sold regulator ever made, t he scubapro MK2 is an unbalanced downstream piston.