Responding (Again) to Zeitgeist Claims
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- čas přidán 2. 01. 2023
- I responded to a video sharing claims from Zeitgeist from @bubsyoutube here:
• Responding (Again) to ...
That creator responded to my video here:
• Sun Worshipping: Clari...
And this is my response, whittled down to under 10 minutes for the sake of TikTok’s time limit.
Just to demonstrate this is not my bias, here's a critique of the film from the religion editor for Skeptic Magazine that points to the same concerns with the film's inaccurate claims (you have to scroll down a bit): www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/09-0...
I love the part on which he basically says "Dan has a PhD in Theology and I have ChatGPT" 😅
Sorry but I actually LOL'd at "cult leader McClellan"
I went through all 5 stages of grief 🥴
@@jasonclayton4470 I felt the same way. Who knew? Haha
Me too😂😂
It's always funny how Dan comes with sources you can investigate, but the people arguing just show random screenshots.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story 😂😂
Dude copy and pasted the first image he saw on Brave after Brave did a quick search on Google
Horus was a Capricorn. Jesus was a Capricorn. Is that merely a coincidence?!?!?😮
“congratulations on that very edgy insight” 😭😂 also the original creator started their response off by immediately being snarky and aggressive, I wonder why they don’t normally do response videos…
He was an arrogant prick wasn't he!
"Congratulations on that very edgy insight." I *LITERALLY* just LOL'd and shot chocolate milk through my nose 😂!
Gonna have to get me some chocolate milk. I had a mouthful of Dorito crumbles when the video finished, and i can say… coughing up Doritos into your nose is not fun
"Yes, that's a classic and hilarious episode" in the most dead pan way possible. Haha
Most Mormons I know think that episode of SP is hilarious. Additionally, most Mormon parents I know absolutely do _not_ let their kids watch SP!
@@TestUser-cf4wj Personally, I don't think most kids (at least younger than middle or high school age) should be watching southpark - there's some traumatizing stuff in there
That last line gave me flashbacks to when I first became an atheist when I was 18. Like wooow, this guy figured out that culture exists and informs different interpretations and practices of religions. Much deep. Dan, thank you for giving an academic insight and informing healthy religious discussion with your platform. Even though I'm an atheist, I believe that working WITH religions in order to create social change is much more preferable to trying to debunk religion. Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc are all capable of creating good in the world, it just takes education and compassion and I love the effort you put into giving good information with a level head. Have a good one sir.
living waters youtube. Dont be mistaken. God created the universe, it did not create itself. Believing in a self creating universe is a direct contradtion of all know laws of physics. Jesus suffered on the cross for your sins and you reject him. You dont think you need a savior, but you do. Do not like your arrogance and pride blind you to the truth. You are addicted to the things that are immoral, and you know they are immoral yet you ignore your conscience. Do not ignore it any longer. Repent and put your trust in the lord. God bless.
@JM physicist here. There are several theories as to how the universe came I to existence but we don't know conclusively. But a self creating universe is more plausible from a physics standpoint than a supernatural being...
congratulations
@@JM-wx5nm the god man going through _temporary_ conscious torment such that the god god wont send those who 'accept' him to _eternal_ conscious torment is a direct contradiction to all known laws of justice and logic
@@Gittana-ip2ms I completely get the sentiment, Im a former catholic who is now an atheist and pansexual. But I dont think just using incendiary rhetoric towards the whole religion is a viable way to go. Combating conservative rhetoric and representatives through voting, protest, art, and ardent civil disobedience can go alongside intersectional collaboration & seeking reform within churches and educating christian communities in order to attain social change and legislative justice. Of course LGBTQIA+ folks are under no obligation to enter christian circles and face their oppressors’ bigotry with civility or empathy, I would never say that. But allies within churches should definitely be having these conversations. Sorry for the long response, I just wanted to be clear that I would never claim that christianity as its represented and practiced as a whole in America is in any way friendly to LGBTQIA+ folk.
I'm not a Mormon but watching that guy answer him with a South Park cartoon about Mormons was a hilarious try-hard to evade the discussion. It's so stupid that it's amazing
Your response to him trying attack you for your faith was graceful and hilarious.
It boggles my mind someone could use that epsiode as an excuse to attack Mormons. Wasn't the whole moral of the episode one of the kids learning not to be shitty to their Mormon friend and his family, who were lovely people with a religious tradition that, like all religions, sounds silly to outsiders?
I thought the moral of the episode was to separate the religion from its adherents. The Mormons in the show were good, honest, forthright people. Just because they believed a bunch of obviously absurd nonsense no rational person should take seriously, you should judge them by their character and actions rather than their beliefs.
I love being part of this debunking cult.
All hail the great Dan McClellan
If Dan has a cult, I guess I'm in it. But I think he debunks far too much to be a good cult leader
Cult leaders tell you what to think and how to believe. Dan provides knowledge for those who know how to think. More data points means finer resolution. There is no cult for free thinkers.
Couldn't have said it better myself!
Yeah, and he doesn't require or even desire for everyone to agree with him, which is why he hosts a podcast with an atheist and has guests from all sorts of faith backgrounds. His goal really is to educate about these things and then let you come to your own conclusions. There's plenty that I disagree with Dan about (I'm an atheist for one) but he and I can agree on the methodology and approach to take when thinking about complex topics
This is honestly silly and dumb. It's okay to respect Dan, but he himself fully acknowledges that he's just an expert, and that's how you should regard him.
I think he’s a bit more than just a cult leader. I had leprosy and Dan debunked it.
Lol your response to being Mormon was hilarious
Who knew Dan Mclellan was the “cult leader” of 200 years of biblical scholarship? Amazing! 😂
I know there is going to be a good time when I hear "alright let's see it"
Wow I've never been in a cult before! This is so cool! Love ya Dan keep it up!
What are you gonna do Dan? There are Fundamentalists who say, “it’s in the Bible, if must be true.” There are Fundamentalists who say, “it’s in the Bible, it can’t be true.”
Also, it’s odd that he thinks you think the Virgin Birth is a literal event. He hasn’t seen your videos.
Dan, I love your work. Another fellow CZcamsr I’ve enjoyed is Jeff who runs the HelloSaints channel. I know how busy you are and he is but would LOVE to see you both collaborate. I know you both have studied the Bible and would be fun to see both of your takes and the common ground or differences you’ve both found in your studies.
did this guy want us to watch a cartoon as reference to religious research?
He recommends using ChatGPT? LOL. That is not a search engine, but a natural language chat bot which is notorious for responces that read like a freshman spouting bullshit answers. It may produce papers on Hume describing him as the source of Lockean ideology. It makes the same sort of careless math answers often made by humans who have not studied math in a while. When it is right, if you tell it that it is wrong it may switch to rationalizing whatever position you give it, and in the future may tell other users that, e.g., 1 + 1 = 3
He must have used it to write his script.
Dan keep doing what you’re doing, it’s amazing!
I just love the bemused expression on Dan's face when he says "Let's see it." Golden.
Ooh.. I've never been in a cult before. Is there a uniform? Do we at least get matching shirts?
Superb response to baffling nonsense. Nice succinct information and accurate quality scholarship. Dan mcclellan you have become one of my favorites. Keep up the great work.
I love it when Dan gets spicy
Muhkellan. The, uh, cult leader…
Dan,
From all that I've watched of your tiktok videos, I've gathered that your purpose is to present the facts, the data and scholarly consensus of the most recent information and to debunk misinfornation by those who really are just plain ill-informed and misguided by their own bias and maybe cognative dissonance.. Thank you I've learned so much in the past week than in the last 15 years of studying thru your videos..😊😊😊
Dan, I just have to say, I was quite surprised when I found out that you are LDS, BUT *ONLY* BECAUSE your knowledge and assessment of the Bible is as untainted by religious dogma and bias as I think is humanly possible! I want you to know, even I am an atheist myself, I have profound trust in what you say. You have proven (to me at least) to be one of the most knowledgeable AND trustworthy sources on the subject of the Bible! I'm sure I speak for a great many people, from all kinds of faiths, denominations, and lack thereof, when I say this. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience with us. Your channel has EASILY become one of my favorite CZcams channels.
If edgy internet guy isn't even sure whether he is pronouncing "Karnak" correctly, maybe he should think twice before presenting himself as knowledgable in the field of Egyptology.
Imagine using south park - a satirical show that does its best to make strange ideas sound even more strange, often to the point that they aren't representative of the original source - as evidence.
Perfect example why drugs are bad.
I'm wondering if there is a significance to the number three in reference to "and on the third day he rose again"? I know it doesn't make any sense, but I remember the Zeitgeist movie using those three days to explain the difference between the winter solstice and Christmas.
I've been watching all of Dan's recent Zeitgeist debunking, and this one is the most fun by far! I didn't realize attacking Christmas was so popular!
Always impressed at the logical pretzels they make.
I don't know when the Magi became associated with Kings, but I know that the number three comes from the fact that there were three gifts given to Jesus: gold, frankincence, and myrrh. I also know that in Puerto Rico, Three Kings Day (Jan 6) is the end of the Christmas season and we left straw out for the camels of the Kings who would also leave gifts, just like Santa Claus on Christmas. That's just a fun fact for y'all.
".. 1000 years later .. there would be different religions."
And I'm not so sure they would have been all that different.
3:00😮
This guy clearly has no idea what it takes to get a PHD... and I am not sure i could be more offended... I only have a Bachelor's.
Dan could totally market the skeptic cult leader brand
Love this
You really shouldnt have to put up with the personal attacks especially from someone who manages to be so wrong.
research using ChatGPT is the most preposterous thing I've ever heard
Lol! I imagine it went something like “Hey ChatGPT, write me 1600 words on mythological pseudoscience so I can show that pesky ‘researcher’ how clever I am.” It ended as well as you’d expect lol!
Si tacuisses, philosophus mansisses...
Me watching a documentary is obviously on a par with the knowledge of different fields of science... What could go wrong?!?
Is it just me or does anyone else find it hilarious he's wearing a RATM shirt?
Nowadays the band itself is actually raging _alongside_ the machine so yeah, needs updating
You're 100% correct, sir. Keep up the great work.
He just wants his '15 minutes'.
Someone brought receipts!
Bro gets absolutely savaged here by Dan. Incredible that people step to this man.
Dan you have great patience with the unlearned. I can’t watch to the end🙄🙄
Ugh, how did a ten minute CZcams video turn into reading an Egyptian studies textbook.
I hope you mentioned in your other video that December 25th was a tradition that came later like the "3" magi.
I love the Mythology A to Z series!
You charitably ascribed what he said to textbooks… I’m sure the snapshots he showed were from Wikipedia… perhaps you have to smoke as much of the good stuff as he appears to do to conflate the two?
I didn't know i was part of a cult 💀power to the great Dan McClellan 🙆🏽♂️
It's funny watching this 11 months after this was made and looking at the original creator's (pretty much dead) CZcams channel today.
He lost me when he called Dan a cult leader. He might want to ask Google to define that phrase before deploying it again. 🤔
"All religions are fabricated. If the world ended now and rebuild itself thousands of years later, there would be different religions."
Yes, it sounds like no-shit-sherlock stuff, but I have met more than two people who have never though about that.
I'd be interested in hearing more about how the scholarly consensus is that the Bible doesn't claim creation ex nihilo.
Where can i sign up for the "cult of McClellan"? 😂
*ChatGPT Religious Bias*
Almost every time I chatGPT about potentially moral content of a religious text (Bible and Koran so far), it adds a sort of sermon saying that the text can be interpreted in a good way.
When I push back with evidence, it will eventually agree with me.
But the next time I ask the question, it’s back to sermonizing. It has not incorporated what it seemed to have learned.
It's so wild how there's people out there who will just be so loud and so wrong. I really hope that guy does not have a following. Or at least when his audience goes and searches you up, they realize how incorrect he is.
You're just sitting here, chilling and providing academically backed up information and all this dude is doing is blathering off.
Let's all say it together now: Dunning Kruger.
Wait, where did he get "cult leader" from?
Must people use obscenities when discussing scholarly and intellectual topics?
I did not know DMcC was a cult leader. Damn, I did not get the memo.
*”McClellan is biased”*
Yes, everyone is biased, but McClellan’s work shows about the least bias of anyone I know of, in contrast to the Zeitgeist guy, who seems to have a parallelomaniacal bias.
lol @ cult leader. I love you and your work Dan.
"Cult leader"...you've reached the pinnacle...enjoy it while it lasts! 😂
It's hilarious when non-academics try to "debunk" people who have spent years, sometimes decades, studying a topic. They don't have any counter-arguments to offer, they often don't even _understand_ the arguments, so basically the only thing they can come up with is "Nu-uh!" and "he/she doesn't know what they're talking about!!" and we're supposed to think "wow, successful debunk!" haha
Haha, that was indeed a very edgy insight, wasn't it. The drive to create endless gods is cleary innate in the human psyche.
I really detest ad hominem arguments in debates. That content creator should learn to listen and argue better.
This is the forth civilization of humanity, life and events are cyclical. Zeitgist are insane
*Winter Solstice*
Wasn’t Dec 25 seen as the day after the Solstice and thus when the Sun is “reborn”?
That has almost nothing to do with Jesus’ perceived date of birth, though. The concept of Jesus’ date of birth had nothing to do with Christianity until at least 80 CE: the book of Matthew. So even if Jesus the human was an invention (I don’t think so), his date of birth was irrelevant at the time.
It's funny to watch armchair hacks gin up such a cocky confidence, though they have very little to add to any sober, informed discussion about ancient religions.
The surest way to announce you don’t watch any of Dan’s content is to call him a Christian apologist lmao
Chat gpt...😂😂😂
Gives any response you wish for.
That is his suggestion to combat misinformation. Ha 😂😂😂
P.S. this kid is a jackass. Sorry. But, tis true.
2:17 😂😂. I'd say your videos cut both ways, but I guess his whole schtick is just attacking anything said about Christianity that is remotely positive.
I sleep at night just fine as a christian.
Dan you can correct him but he isn’t listening. Prove isn’t what he cares about.
brutality against stoned bros will get you reported.
TikTok is so cool. There’s barely any pretense of rigor. It’s all rhetoric, baby
My source: Transformers Movie
Is this the first time you’ve been identified as a cult leader? Is that like leveling up in Final Fantasy?
What's the context here? I seem to have stumbled across 2 religious people debating.
Or maybe not. I'm new here.
Then go watch the original video. The title literally says "responding AGAIN"
If you want to go watch more of his videos (and, for whatever it's worth - I think they're extremely interesting and educational) Dan McClellan had created a mountain of videos and tiktoks sharing his knowledge and expertise on ancient religions and cultures. Sometimes he's debunking conspiracy theories or misinformation. He always cites sources and is always a good communicator of the academic consensus on some difficult historical work. I wish there were more people doing what he does - but the small handful of people who have studied this subject for so many years aren't usually this good at media production.
Cult leader??????😳🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
It's every bit of conspiracism that I see on this channel
It is a good sign when both raving anti-theists and theocrats feel the need to attack you. At least your enemies are balanced. Well, balanced *against each other*, but that may have been the only time they were balanced in years, so...
Please please please write a book, or better yet, a set of books explaining the Bible’s origins, The Who what when where of the entirety of religion. To include explanations of all bible verses and the intent and how humans have twisted those verses for evil purposes. Or how verses have been twisted by people with good intentions. Come to think of it, it would take 100 books to get the job done so please get busy. I’ll buy every book.
So Dan is a cult leader now?! Interesting. Also, it is one thing to be edgy and try and refute someone else's claims but when you go after someone for their academic credentials....that is just weird. I think that creator would be better served investing in some academic pursuits instead of just relying on search engine results for his information which is still wrong.
I wonder if this guy has followers who are fooled by his nonsense and are happy to ignore the properly researched and cited rebuttal information. Or is he just another example of how it takes no actual knowledge of a subject to make a video on it.
Oh god this guy is getting pummelled. He says Dan’s a cult leader then blurts out ‘it’s all astrological’. Great start. Assuming Dan is dogmatic and therefore stupid and easily taken down because he is Christian is his fundamental mistake. He proceeds to then be wrong about everything except for the ‘very edgy insight’ at the end.
Dude has a rage shirt.
Rage for the machine
Just do what they tell you
These people don't quite understand how there are intelligent adults who believe in invisible magical beings with superpowers, men walking on water and gods having kids with human virgins. So they grab the first thing they see on YT that they think might open some eyes and go with it, not realizing all that much that their sources are garbage.
The truth is that talking about the real problems is rather tedious and boring. I mean, one can always hear Kamil Gregor talk about the enormous similarities that not many are aware of between some aspects of Christianity and other religions and cults of that time. Or you can discover the fact that the four gospels are actually anonymous, that being also the opinion of most Christian biblical scholars. Or realize the enormous amount of contradictions one finds when reading the synoptic gospels horizontally, or worse, the even greater displays of collusion when one realizes that there are entire paragraphs that are exactly (word for word) the same.
But none of that is what will make people really question the faith in which they were probably indoctrinated. To do that you first have to understand the significance of the fact that most religious people already believed what their holy books said before they had even read them.
Really there are similarities between these sort of guys and those of religious groups as well. You can find plenty of Christians peddling their own weird apologetics thinking that it will cause a sudden realization in others of the validity of their argued religion.
Christianity is absurd enough as it is without having to make shit up about it.
25 december is saturnalia feast tho🙃
Feel free to watch like the dozen videos Dan has already made about that being wrong
@@firstpersonwinner7404 the fact is still ,saturnalia from 18-24dec and sol invictus birth still 25dec🥴
@@jiyanreksa2370 Well seeing as Saturnalia is a different festival than Sol Invictus, and that Christmas is an older tradition than Sol Invictus, I don't see your point.
I dont get this guy's thought process. You dont need to draw vague connections to Egyptian gods and Jesus to explain where the virgin birth story came from.
Like Dan said, the Greek Septuigent using "virgin" rather than "young woman" is a good explanation for the birth narrative of Jesus. The author of Matthew often would scupt his narrative around verses he viewed as prophetic or the stories he heard were made consciously or subconsciously to fulfill that task.
Another explanation is simple; major story beats of Jesus' life according to the Gospels can be found in Greek and Roman narratives about other figures. Perhaps when Christianity started moving away from Judaism and there was an influx of converted non Jews from the Roman Empire, the stories of Jesus became more Roman in identity than they were decades prior.
"Oh Jesus is the son of God? Well he must have had a spectacular birth!"
"Oh Jesus ascended to Godhood after his death? He must have resurrected!"
"Oh Jesus was a wise teacher? Like the famous Greek philosophers he must have debated religious authorities!"
The birth narrative and death narratives are the easiest to tie to similar narratives about other historical and mythological figures and while you cant conclude that Christians looked at Roman ideas and thought "let's do this but with Jesus", one could certainly purpose that perhaps people unconsciously sculpted narratives about Jesus in line with narratives common within their cultures. You didnt have authors look at Egyptian God births and copy it with Jesus but rather narratives about Jesus arise with similar plot points to other cults in that culture. Not every important figure in the Roman Empire was born of a virgin but like all of them were claimed to have a miraclous birth. Not every important figure in the Roman Empire rose again after 3 days in the grave, but many were said to escape death in some fashion (resurrection, ascension to godhood, etc). Theyre common themes. Its like superhero movies and comics. Not every hero has the same storyline or backstory but theres certain trends
As an Atheist this guy makes me laugh cuz he's like using common atheist talking points but is either getting the talking point wrong or he's just repeating misinformation from my group. It's embarrassing.
I think a lot of people like easy simple answers to complicated questions (such as, why does Christianity have a virgin birth story), but the truth is is that it's a lot more complicated than "Christianity copied all of its major stories from Ancient Egypt".
Zeitgeist was abut the dumbest thing Ive ever seen.
If tbis guy thinks ypu are comforting to Christians 😅😅😅 i think if anything your work makes Christians uncomfortable.
*Utter ignorance*
It sounds as tho the Zeitgeist guy has not listened to a single video from Dan McClellan.
Why even bother with all these nitwits?
Winter solstice has no relation to Dec 25? That's crazy to say that. It's much too close to be a coincidence. These end of year festivals went on for days so that would encompass both days. The birthday of Sol Invictus was celebrated on Dec 25. Sol Invictus means Victorious Sun. So Jesus was simple interchanged with Sol Invictus. Obviously Sol Invictus is born on the Solstice. I'm not so sure that modern academic scholarship is free of its own prejudices.