When I was first learning about dating the festivals 50 years ago it was accepted that Christmas was an appropriation of the Roman solstice combined with being roughly 9 months after Easter, of course now we have access to better scholarship on the reasons for the choice of the day. There was never any suggestion that Easter was appropriated from pagan tradition, that idea didn't start appearing until the growth of the New Age movement in the 80s.
For me it was completely intuitive. I grew up in a conservative environment and I still came to the conclusion myself because of how many of our holiday rituals look nothing like anything I was familiar with in the bible. There are even references to yule and yuletide in our holiday traditions, and that was probably the seed that got me thinking. So it was all something that was "obvious" to me that needed to be disproven, rather than some surprising claim from the outside that I didn't bother to fact check.
@@Durante_di_Alighiero I mean, considering that pagan (in most modern contexts) just refers to any religion that isn’t Judaism, Christianity or Islam, saying “Judaism is based on paganism” is technically correct, but is just as meaningful as saying “Judaism is based on preexisting traditions”, but of course, what else could it be based on?
This topic annoys me. Which is why I have my own video coming out on it. Everyone hones in on the "Dec. 25th" date as if this is the end all be all. Aurelian's Feast date is just replacing the ancient Brumalia that existed for centuries, so I don't know why its even brought up. Plus, we have texts that suggest that Basilides and Alexandrian Christians celebrated the Epiphany on Jan 6, so at the very least, Christians are already in the general ballpark for Winter Solstice Christmas dating. But nobody ever brings up Brumalia and how the Brumalia festival and New Years Kalends of Janus get blended in with basic Saturnalia rites and practiced long into the middle ages, especially in the east. I think its the rites that should be discussed, rather than the date of the Solstice itself. And the Easter thing is just baseless in my opinion. Jesus was said to have gone down to Jerusalem during the Passover, which ends that discussion. Only mythicists can really argue for Easter being something made up.
This is where tradition and text don't play nice with each other. JCs birthday can be estimated from the text to not be December 25. However traditionally it was placed there. It is not that much of a stretch to then infer this date was chosen to coop existing holidays. It also made conversions easier ifnyou just rebrand pre existing festivals, symbols and locations. For Easter, the egg was already a symbol of rebirth. The incorporation of the Easter bunny seems to come from Germanic folklore but there is no direct link to be found to Oester. This is along the lines of the three wisemen. No number is listed but there were three gifts. There could have been 42 wisemen for all we know.
I used to believe those claims. It had nothing to do with Dan main perceived reasons. There are “pagan” winter traditions with mistletoe, etc. So the idea of a tree being pagan was easy to accept. I knew nothing of any bunny or egg Christian traditions, but fertility traditions (which rabbits now represent and eggs are literally part of) do use animals. So I believed them because they fit the pattern I perceived in “paganism,” and differed greatly from the tradition I perceived in Christianity
Pretty sure I heard some variant of the Christmas and Easter claims before my first encounter with the Internet, from Christians. I think it was in the same context, or at least supposed to be, as the stories of Christians building Churches in places sacred to previous religions, and, in that context, seemed completely plausible. Though today's versions seem to include a lot more details.
right when i've seen people saying christmas was pagan i started crying, this is literally my childhood, i just hate the fact that something that brings me so much joy and happiness is sin, i just hope i can still celebrate it
Seems that the majority of early Christians were non Jewish pagans so most of the dates of observance and rituals would naturally be influenced by familiar observances. Just because there was no malice of forethought doesn’t mean they can’t have pagan roots.
Christmas is very near the "Winter Solstice". As Pagans had celebrations around such times, it is not unreasonable to come to the conclusion that Christians also celebrated their alongside their Pagan neighbors.
In northern latitudes, the sun dips so low it dips below the horizon around December 21, to rise again a few days later. Easter has always been a celebration of new life, the bunny rabbits eggs and such. They simply flipped them around to confuse comparisons. Denying it does not make it untrue.
Dan, I enjoy and appreciate your videos and your understanding of doing meticulous and factual and obviously tedious research. I think the part that people don't understand is that you're not denying the Christian Bible, (or even supporting it, maybe), you are just demanding that if people are going to use it for discussion and argumentative sake that they fully understand what it is they are reading and what it actually means, the why and where it came from, and the original (or as close to possible) sources for what we now have. Almost all the negative comments I've come across in all your videos that I've watched come from people - on both sides of the aisle - who vehemently disagree with you, not because they have done meticulous research but because it questions their supposed innate belief system. Please continue what you are doing, as I have no doubt your true and understanding admirers will continue to grow in legion. What I really want to know is - in all these early pre-ecumenical councils and gatherings and then the ecumenical councils and meetings, etc. were they just a bunch of older men with long grey beards who sat around thinking deep thoughts about what God and Jesus were all about and over time, came out of their deep thoughts with the entire group now enlightened and in full agreement of what should be accomplished, written down, practices followed? Or were they like today's get-togethers where there is infighting, deals brokered, feelings hurt, people going away or going away mad? I think devout Christians would like to believe the former, I suspect with them all being first, humans, that it was more often the latter.
So I definitely understand being critical of the observations of "Syrus", but the text around the highlighted passages is what drew my attention, specifically the claims of Liberius placing the date of Christmas on Dec. 25th in 354. After following the citations for three critical texts, I ended up at the Chronograph of 354 being the first instance we have of both a celebration of Sol Invictus and Jesus's birthday being a feast day occurring on Dec. 25th, as opposed to dates which had been previously proposed like November 17th or March 28th. As best I can tell from my limited time and resources, it may just be speculation of intent as the proposed date of the birth of Christ just happened to line up in 354 with a pagan festival, but do you know of any reason that argument might be invalid off the cuff? I know it requires more research into sources on the celebrations of Sol Invictus, but I don't know how many of those we even have if the first mention was 354 and then the Edict of Thessalonica dropped 26 years later. I would appreciate any thoughts or data for further direction
A possible explanation for this is Syrians observed Christmas on January 6 and Easter on April 6 , so a Syrian annotation was stating a biased opinion that Rome must have changed the date for political reasons …
The text's claim that Liberius was responsible for placing Christmas on Dec. 25th is false. Hippolytus of Rome identified Dec. 25th as the date of the Nativity in the year 204, which is before Aurelian declared Dec. 25th the celebration of Sol Invictus in the year 274. So it is chronologically impossible for the date of Christmas to be selected based on the Dies Natalis Solis Invicti. It's even possible the opposite might be the case.
@@mjr_schneider Looking into Hippolytus also had Julius Africanus and others also pop up prior to 354, but at this very early point in looking at the claims I see both the listed assertions and also the controversies that they're later additions to the documents with very little sources on either case, so I still have more to dig. The work goes on, but I did want to at least acknowledge your comment and thank you for the help because it is greatly appreciated!
My encyclopedias that i had in the 80s stated that easter was a pagan holiday and so is Christmas. If you look up the Catholic encyclopedias they say Christmas is actually the day the virgin mary became pregnant. She was visited by the angel Gabriel on December 12th. So there seems to be a lot of mixed data out there.
I mean an issue I think with this discussion is what does it mean to have pagan origins? Because many christians will claim it as if Christmas has literally no influence from any holidays whatsoever throughout all of its history and you have also pointed out that this is wrong. At the same time, some will act as if having a pagan origin means that it literally solely started with paganism. To me, I think there is a lot more grey here in what we mean when we discuss these holidays having pagan origins and that affects what we mean including as scholars of history and in what we are communicating especially when talking about interections between groups and the influence of different cultures on each other throughout time
@@MilkJugA_ blood sacrifice. Virgin birth. Demigod. Dove being the symbol of Aphrodite as a messenger at the time of Jesus' baptism. Rising of saints from their tombs....slaughter of innocent babies by Herod. None of them in the historical record or uncovered in archaeological records. Fascinating that there are people believe it to be true.
@@83croissant it has very Greek and Roman themes to it. Turning water to wine...Dionysus did that. Calming the sea and wind with words....that's something Odysseus claimed he could not do(well he could calm the sea since he was a son of Poseidon but not the wind) same Greek words also which is amazing. Linen cloth is a big part of Roman culture and has many interesting literary meanings back in ancient times.
Forget the pagan thing. We are not instructed or commanded by God, Yeshua or any of the apostles or by the example of the early Jewish Church which lasted for 100 years in Jerusalem with a succession of some 13 Jewish bishops until Gentiles from oime ethinically cleansed the Holy City of all Jews and forcefully evicted them from the land of their forefathers, to keep any holy days annually or weekly to venerate either the birth or resurrection of Yeshua as a thing. The only instruction given at Passover on Nisan 14th, the date of both His farewell meal and His crucifixion, (due to sunset to sunset days), were the clear instructions to remember His sacrificial atoning DEATH which wrought for us salvation through His shed blood. "As often as ye do this," i.e. celebrate Passover, when unleavened bread would be freely available, not "do this as often as you like," which is basically what goes on in most Gentile denominational churches today, with some having the "Lord's Supper" at breakfast time instead of in the evening as He did, when it is usually illegal to buy or consume alcohol in normal social practice so early in the morning time. "Christ-Mass" or "Easter" may have become cherished Gentile Christian traditions, but any stranger to reading the Bible would not find any Bible instruction to uphold or keep these things. So, no, they may not be pagan, but we are not obligated to keep them as they are totally man-made and of much later invention than when the early Church was functioning in Israel. However, if you go to any church you will have these things foisted upon you as if they are God's will and are made to feel terrible if one does not want to join in with all the eggs and partying. At least the pagans made their celebrations optional and did not forcefeed them constantly.
“At least the pagans made their celebrations optional…..” Exactly, they were pagan celebrations! not The Most Highs celebrations. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is very specific with how He wants to be worshipped. So much that he tells us not to worship him like the pagans worship their gods. Throw out the doctrines of man and read the word. 1 John 2:1-6 1 ¶ My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. 3 ¶ And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 💥 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. 💥 -- Where in Scripture did Jesus or His Apostles observe the annual celebrations of Christmas or Easter, or the Sunday sabbath? Where in Scripture did they eat unclean foods? Did Jesus and/or his Apostles celebrate actual Holy Days or the weekly Sabbath as directed in Scripture? 1 John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
Atheists tend to be the more intellectually voiced ones when it comes to this subject. So many Pagans just want to stick it to christianity by saying these holidays are Pagan, and a painful amount of christians think since they're not referanced in the Bible they must be evil Satanic Pagan holidays conceptualized to test the faith of true believers. Mainstream adherents are exasperating.
"people" are not convinced that the mentioned festivities are pagan. That's why is celebrated all over the world, with no distinction of religion there. Is an ecumenical instrument for sure, and obviously, the historical facts that roman empire conect both pagan and "christian" concepts , hurt the cultural tradition and this is unpopular... Facts are facts
Dan I think you make a fantastic point in this video. That even critical and high-level scholarship can make mistakes, and make claims about properly verifying them. I think what you also have to keep in mind is you’re always reading some thing through the lens of someone else, now of course it’s scholars people who are academics, Who are trustworthy sources, but at the same time we should just blindly follow them we should do our own research as well.
3:58. Clearly it has to be moved to before January 6 because they prophesied centuries ahead of time that January 6 would be a day that would live in infamy.
I think the sheer closeness of the Roman Holidays to Christmas, and the Easter Bunny nonsense with regard to Easter makes it an easy explanation. A subtler analysis probably involves some sort of what I heard called syncretism. When two cultures collide, there is both intentional and unconscious blending of the two. There may be some level of conscious appropriation, but it can be thought of as the cultural equivalent of the species differentiation between mainland and Galapagos finches. In response to other cultural influences, both cultures modify their practices to accommodate the new physical and cultural situation. In post conquest Peru for example, the descendants of the original Spaniards still regarded themselves as Spanish, but both the cultural and physical circumstances changed their attitudes and practices so that within two or three hundred years, the Peruvian Spaniards bore little resemblance to their counterparts in Spain. I suspect this idea would be nearly impossible to document since the impacts within each generation are subtle and somewhat unconscious. Given your assertion that no overt Roman acts of cultural appropriation can be documented, subtler, long-term changes must have come into play. I don't think my assertion is testable, but it is consistent with the changes that occurred, and the lack of any documentary evidence suggesting conscious attempts .
Agreed. I think it’s interesting to flip this around and ask “Why did Christians arrive at these times for these celebrations?” And if someone tells me that Christmas, Passover and Easter only coincidentally coincide with the solar calendar, rather than having been influenced by older traditions of celebrating these changes in the seasons, I’m inclined to disagree absent some strong indications otherwise. Similarly, we have to ask ourselves why so many of the traditions surrounding these celebrations have nothing to do with religious tenets.
@@bensalemi7783 and Hindus as well. I remember a high school presentation where various groups of the student body presented their holidays during that "Christmas" season. Our ancestors looked at the stars and noted when the shortest day was and when spring would start. It was keenly important to know when the warmer weather should be coming. How long would winter last? Astrology was a thing. I'm betting that the ancient Druids of merry olde england had some form of Winter celebration right in that period of time that Christians celebrate their Christmas holiday. Perhaps not "December 25th" but Diwali, Hanukah, Solstice rites.. why are they erased in favor of the Christian's selfish little holiday. (Sorry, I'm a long time survivor of the Christians' war on Christmas. Every year, the christians show how selfish they are with their politicization of the silly phrase "Merry Christmas" vs. "Happy Holidays". They show the worst aspects of themselves and make life a bit more small and darker with their bs. Besides... I really hate buying gifts and all that commercial crap. I prefer volunteering and trying to make the world a little less dark rather than indulging in greed. )
@@jenniferhunter4074 You live in a Christian country. Deal with it. There is nothing selfish about Christians wishing Merry Christmas. None of these other rites are erased. They are just the minority. As for buying gifts, it only became that important despite Christianity, not because of it. Greed is not a Christian value. As for the solstices and equinoxes, they are important for everyone and are not owned by anyone. We didn't "steel" anything. Not even pagan traditions related to Christmas, because they were brought in by Christians who were the very pagans who had these traditions that were recontextualised for their new faith.
@@bensalemi7783 Easter is related to the spring equinox because it comes from Passover, which is always celebrated on the full moon following the spring equinox. There is no coincidence there. Christmas happens on December 25th or January 6th because it was a Jewish belief at the time that saints will die on the day of their conception or birth. Christ died on the day before Passover, so he was conceived the day before Passover too. The Western Church believed it was in March 25th (still the Feast of Annunciation) and the Eastern Church believed it was April 6th. Add nine months and you have December 25th and January 6th.
@@Xerxes2005 No. That is yet another lie by Christians. I wish you would stop lying. "“As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion, as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religious or tranquility of Musselmen, and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.” Treaty of Tripoli. By the same generation that would have been present for my country's founding. as for the selfishness..that is just a fact. Christians are always screeching about how companies need to say "Merry Christmas" rather than sharing a period of time where cultures around the world celebrate a holiday. (I have no problem blaming you for Manifest Destiny and your "god given" right to own people. Notice how the christians suddenly run when anybody points out the harm that christianity has done via Christians.0
at the risk of committing the very fallacy this video warns against (with regards to my understanding of both history and biology)...it seems to me like ancient sources are the endogenous retroviruses of history - they are but shells of something that happened in the past that are still with us, whose contents can never be fully understood.
Hi Dan, New subscriber (who's been binge-watching you all last evening). From this, I'm still unclear on why Christmas was established on Dec. 25 when it was orig. celebrated on Jan. 6. The connection to Sol Invictus and the need to supplant that celebration into Christian terms is unfounded? Do we know why the Dec. 25 date was chosen?
He has a video or two on this. I don't remember the title, but I'm pretty sure December 25th is part of it. Oh, and Sol Invictus is a harvest celebration in the autumn.
Jeremiah 10:1-5 Idols and the Living God 1Hear the word that the LORD speaks to you, O house of Israel. 2Thus says the LORD: “Learn not the way of the nations, nor be dismayed at the signs of the heavens because the nations are dismayed at them, 3for the customs of the peoples are vanity.a A tree from the forest is cut down and worked with an axe by the hands of a craftsman. 4They decorate it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so that it cannot move. 5Their idolsb are like scarecrows in a cucumber field, and they cannot speak; they have to be carried, for they cannot walk. Do not be afraid of them, for they cannot do evil, neither is it in them to do good.”
Though I agree with everything Dan is saying here, I think the proximity of traditional dates chosen for Jesus's birthday, death and resurrection, and even conception to the Winter Solstice and Spring Equinox might be indicative of some attempt by early Christians to hold their own celebrations on or around these times that were important to their non-Christian rivals, perhaps to give new converts a reason not to worship other deities during these occasions.
The biblical feasts are given inLev. 23. Why change what Yah has already ordained ? The gospel is in these feasts , if we understand them. It's simple like that.
Put aside the fact that it is pagan. He tells us in scripture to not go the way of the heathen and to not follow man-made traditions. Christianity became apostate many years ago.
Christianity is not completely novel. It for sure borrows from other faiths or customs everywhere it goes. This video doesn't answer where these holidays come from.
You haven't made a clear convincing case either way. In fact, you only really state the implied opinion of "you don't agree with some things in Christianity", that other faiths have similarities, and that you felt like not taking an even deeper dive into irrelevant or similar holidays would somehow add to the claim even though he made his case and covered or mentioned those other holidays enough to prove and direct attention to the sources of his claims and research, which check out. They probably refute evidence you may have in protest to his claims and that might make you emotional and force you to also challenge your own beliefs which are likely in favor of the spiritual pagan or Wiccan side of things. The fact is, it's a some and said argument. You're allowed of course to believe what you will and celebrate what you will. But I think the truest explanation we can derive for the celebration of Easter appears to be most associated and connected to Christianity. There have been spiritual cover ups and wars and attempts to blanket or erase history since the dawn of time. It's not surprising to see truth challenged so heavily or warped so intensely. He was right. You're allowed to be wrong. We both win.
There were aspects appropriated because Rome didn't stop the syncretism once it became Christian. Was ENTIRE holidays co-opted? No. But certain aspects were borrowed. All Saint's day was changed to November 1st specifically to help convert. That is a fact. As far as December 25th, That was the lead up to Jol in Scandinavia (which was on the first full moon, after the new moon, after the Solstice), and Jarl Haakkon merged to two (before he went into hiding for womanizing). So, there is that to consider.
Yahweh himself is a pagan god, actually. Of the caananite pantheon and he was over metallurgy and snakes, hence the early books obsession with bronze and snakes.
@@AeonStaite YAHWEH VS GOD/DOG HOTDOG that's YOUR GODisDOG You too,The WORD OF YAH dont give to those not choosen people beacuse they are all DOG and PIG
The Aztecs also worshipped the sun god on or near December 25th. It is very well established that new rulers replaced festivities with their own and very similar gods. Researching human history alone you will find this. It’s like the hippies who say they invented modern yoga and it belongs to them. Or the cacao ceremonies that make no mention of It’s origins. Why can't humans just admit where these rituals actually came from? Not to shame those who celebrate but to honor their roots. There's no shame in admitting that easter and christmas came from the beautiful ancient rituals full of wisdom and honor.
Not much evidence that Easter has Pagan origins... However there is copious archeology, and general agreement among historians that a big mid-winter festival has been celebrated across Europe and even North Africa since around 2500 bce. 'Christmas' is just the name given to it since around 800 CE as the Christian hegenomy took hold. Nothing important about Christmas is Christian.... Big winter party, old bearded dude bringing the feast, silly hats, pressies in socks, Mistletoe, bringing the forest into the home... All pre Christian (aka pagan). The only Christian bits are the name and the rather pointless nativity stuff.
Collective celebrations are found in Christianity Nothing in Pagan sources attests an old bearded man bringing the feast (which Jesus literally did) Christianity has silly hats Paganism didn't actually bring the forest into the home, the Christmas tree is conclusively Christian
@@thomaswillard6267 Collective celebrations are observed in ape communities. Silly hats is Saturnalia pre-dating the addition of the name Christmas by about 600 years... It is recorded that tradition had Odin (bearded old guy)bringing the winter feast in Norse communities. And bringing a tree in... is indeed a late Christian tradition.... Whilst wreaths (not just of holly) and Yule logs etc predate Christianity by possibly as much as a millennium. You need to do more research...
@@DJTheTrainmanWalker Everyone was wearing silly hats during that time period, and absolutely no Norse traditions have Odin "bringing the winter feast". You are correct about wreaths, but funnily enough incorrect about Christmas trees. Seems like _you_ have quite a bit more research to do lmao.
This video is ridiculous. Are you implying that Jesus actually WAS born on exactly December 25? What support is there for that? Do you believe that people did not celebrate the winter solstice on or around that date in the past? Wow I watched your first video and was impressed by your intellect but this second one really turned me off. Your religious views are clouding your intellect to be biased in order to paint Christianity into a good light for no good reason.
Didn’t remotely say anything implying Jesus was born on December 25. There’s no support for that. Didn’t remotely say anything suggesting people did not celebrate the winter solstice on or around that date. That was the traditional date of observance of the winter solstice in Rome, but it wasn’t when the winter solstice actually happened. My religious views have absolutely nothing to do with this video. This is the academic consensus.
@@maklelan so when was Jesus born? Why do we celebrate his birth on Dec 25? You haven't explained that. Obviously the implication is that Jesus is the Sun being "born" at the Winter Solstice. The "Virgin birth" is the Sun rising into the constellation Virgo at the Winter Solstice 7000 years ago when this mythology originated. That's a plausible and satisfying explanation even if there is no documentary evidence, or data as you like to call it.
@@maklelan I appreciate the video but then there is absolutely nothing remotely like a academic consensus for this particular issue, there is a wide variety of different opinions when it comes to this issue, it’s by no means a consensus.
@@charlo90952 according to many scholars on early Christianity in early Christian traditions, i’ve read including Luke Timothy Johnson believe that the reason for Christmas being celebrated on December 25, had to do with a tradition that was early in Christianity is history, where they believed you would die on the same day you were conceived, and Jesus died sometime in late March, probably March 25, so if you take nine months away from March 25 what do you get December 25, it’s a pretty weird tradition, there are some scholars who object to it.
@@pleaseenteraname1103 well ok maybe. Doesn't sound very convincing. It's too much of a coincidence that it occurs so close to the winter solstice. Gods are really just natural events personified. All ancient cultures were anchored to the cardinal points of the year, the solstices, equinoxes and mid points as in Celtic tradition. Hence the birth of solar dieties at the winter solstice and death at the equinox.
Christmas _replaced_ Saturnalia, Easter has absolutely no association with Ishtar, and all Valentines day has in common with Lupricalia is the date. They're all Christian/Catholic holidays, Halloween is too, that's why Pagans don't celebrate these holidays lmfao.
Great work, Dan. This was insightful and a good reminder to chase down the sources.
When I was first learning about dating the festivals 50 years ago it was accepted that Christmas was an appropriation of the Roman solstice combined with being roughly 9 months after Easter, of course now we have access to better scholarship on the reasons for the choice of the day. There was never any suggestion that Easter was appropriated from pagan tradition, that idea didn't start appearing until the growth of the New Age movement in the 80s.
For me it was completely intuitive. I grew up in a conservative environment and I still came to the conclusion myself because of how many of our holiday rituals look nothing like anything I was familiar with in the bible. There are even references to yule and yuletide in our holiday traditions, and that was probably the seed that got me thinking. So it was all something that was "obvious" to me that needed to be disproven, rather than some surprising claim from the outside that I didn't bother to fact check.
yep certainly long before the internet there was popular opinion that the holidays were based on pagan traditions.
@@scambammer6102 I mean, _Judaism_ is based on pagan traditions, and then Hellenized Jews added some more, and viola, (Pauline) Christianity.
@@MarcillaSmithI certainly hope you intended to type "viola" 😅
@@MarcillaSmith "Judaism is based on pagan traditions" - Judaism is based on Hebrew traditions (or you mean pagan as in "local Hebrew traditions").
@@Durante_di_Alighiero I mean, considering that pagan (in most modern contexts) just refers to any religion that isn’t Judaism, Christianity or Islam, saying “Judaism is based on paganism” is technically correct, but is just as meaningful as saying “Judaism is based on preexisting traditions”, but of course, what else could it be based on?
This topic annoys me. Which is why I have my own video coming out on it. Everyone hones in on the "Dec. 25th" date as if this is the end all be all. Aurelian's Feast date is just replacing the ancient Brumalia that existed for centuries, so I don't know why its even brought up. Plus, we have texts that suggest that Basilides and Alexandrian Christians celebrated the Epiphany on Jan 6, so at the very least, Christians are already in the general ballpark for Winter Solstice Christmas dating. But nobody ever brings up Brumalia and how the Brumalia festival and New Years Kalends of Janus get blended in with basic Saturnalia rites and practiced long into the middle ages, especially in the east. I think its the rites that should be discussed, rather than the date of the Solstice itself. And the Easter thing is just baseless in my opinion. Jesus was said to have gone down to Jerusalem during the Passover, which ends that discussion. Only mythicists can really argue for Easter being something made up.
This is where tradition and text don't play nice with each other. JCs birthday can be estimated from the text to not be December 25. However traditionally it was placed there. It is not that much of a stretch to then infer this date was chosen to coop existing holidays. It also made conversions easier ifnyou just rebrand pre existing festivals, symbols and locations.
For Easter, the egg was already a symbol of rebirth. The incorporation of the Easter bunny seems to come from Germanic folklore but there is no direct link to be found to Oester.
This is along the lines of the three wisemen. No number is listed but there were three gifts. There could have been 42 wisemen for all we know.
I used to believe those claims. It had nothing to do with Dan main perceived reasons. There are “pagan” winter traditions with mistletoe, etc. So the idea of a tree being pagan was easy to accept.
I knew nothing of any bunny or egg Christian traditions, but fertility traditions (which rabbits now represent and eggs are literally part of) do use animals.
So I believed them because they fit the pattern I perceived in “paganism,” and differed greatly from the tradition I perceived in Christianity
Pretty sure I heard some variant of the Christmas and Easter claims before my first encounter with the Internet, from Christians. I think it was in the same context, or at least supposed to be, as the stories of Christians building Churches in places sacred to previous religions, and, in that context, seemed completely plausible. Though today's versions seem to include a lot more details.
Also, bot claims originate in the 12th century? Did I get that right? I can see the conspiracy theories brewing already ...
Thank you , I did not know that about Bar Salibi
right when i've seen people saying christmas was pagan i started crying, this is literally my childhood, i just hate the fact that something that brings me so much joy and happiness is sin, i just hope i can still celebrate it
Seems that the majority of early Christians were non Jewish pagans so most of the dates of observance and rituals would naturally be influenced by familiar observances. Just because there was no malice of forethought doesn’t mean they can’t have pagan roots.
Christmas is very near the "Winter Solstice". As Pagans had celebrations around such times, it is not unreasonable to come to the conclusion that Christians also celebrated their alongside their Pagan neighbors.
In northern latitudes, the sun dips so low it dips below the horizon around December 21, to rise again a few days later. Easter has always been a celebration of new life, the bunny rabbits eggs and such. They simply flipped them around to confuse comparisons. Denying it does not make it untrue.
Dan, I enjoy and appreciate your videos and your understanding of doing meticulous and factual and obviously tedious research. I think the part that people don't understand is that you're not denying the Christian Bible, (or even supporting it, maybe), you are just demanding that if people are going to use it for discussion and argumentative sake that they fully understand what it is they are reading and what it actually means, the why and where it came from, and the original (or as close to possible) sources for what we now have. Almost all the negative comments I've come across in all your videos that I've watched come from people - on both sides of the aisle - who vehemently disagree with you, not because they have done meticulous research but because it questions their supposed innate belief system. Please continue what you are doing, as I have no doubt your true and understanding admirers will continue to grow in legion.
What I really want to know is - in all these early pre-ecumenical councils and gatherings and then the ecumenical councils and meetings, etc. were they just a bunch of older men with long grey beards who sat around thinking deep thoughts about what God and Jesus were all about and over time, came out of their deep thoughts with the entire group now enlightened and in full agreement of what should be accomplished, written down, practices followed? Or were they like today's get-togethers where there is infighting, deals brokered, feelings hurt, people going away or going away mad? I think devout Christians would like to believe the former, I suspect with them all being first, humans, that it was more often the latter.
Hi Dan, thank you for your content ❤
Do you know if there is any revival to the cult to Asherah?
This is the most in depth explanation I’ve seen.
This is awesome.
We could all use a bit more critical thinking and fact checking. Thank you for reminding us how important this is in all aspects of life.
Great information.
So I definitely understand being critical of the observations of "Syrus", but the text around the highlighted passages is what drew my attention, specifically the claims of Liberius placing the date of Christmas on Dec. 25th in 354. After following the citations for three critical texts, I ended up at the Chronograph of 354 being the first instance we have of both a celebration of Sol Invictus and Jesus's birthday being a feast day occurring on Dec. 25th, as opposed to dates which had been previously proposed like November 17th or March 28th.
As best I can tell from my limited time and resources, it may just be speculation of intent as the proposed date of the birth of Christ just happened to line up in 354 with a pagan festival, but do you know of any reason that argument might be invalid off the cuff? I know it requires more research into sources on the celebrations of Sol Invictus, but I don't know how many of those we even have if the first mention was 354 and then the Edict of Thessalonica dropped 26 years later.
I would appreciate any thoughts or data for further direction
A possible explanation for this is Syrians observed Christmas on January 6 and Easter on April 6 , so a Syrian annotation was stating a biased opinion that Rome must have changed the date for political reasons …
The text's claim that Liberius was responsible for placing Christmas on Dec. 25th is false. Hippolytus of Rome identified Dec. 25th as the date of the Nativity in the year 204, which is before Aurelian declared Dec. 25th the celebration of Sol Invictus in the year 274. So it is chronologically impossible for the date of Christmas to be selected based on the Dies Natalis Solis Invicti. It's even possible the opposite might be the case.
@@mjr_schneider Looking into Hippolytus also had Julius Africanus and others also pop up prior to 354, but at this very early point in looking at the claims I see both the listed assertions and also the controversies that they're later additions to the documents with very little sources on either case, so I still have more to dig. The work goes on, but I did want to at least acknowledge your comment and thank you for the help because it is greatly appreciated!
Previously, I'd thought that the Easter holiday was named for the goddess Ishtar.
My encyclopedias that i had in the 80s stated that easter was a pagan holiday and so is Christmas. If you look up the Catholic encyclopedias they say Christmas is actually the day the virgin mary became pregnant. She was visited by the angel Gabriel on December 12th. So there seems to be a lot of mixed data out there.
I mean an issue I think with this discussion is what does it mean to have pagan origins? Because many christians will claim it as if Christmas has literally no influence from any holidays whatsoever throughout all of its history and you have also pointed out that this is wrong. At the same time, some will act as if having a pagan origin means that it literally solely started with paganism.
To me, I think there is a lot more grey here in what we mean when we discuss these holidays having pagan origins and that affects what we mean including as scholars of history and in what we are communicating especially when talking about interections between groups and the influence of different cultures on each other throughout time
Well....to me Christianity feels pagan?
Because it started as a Pagan religion. Go look at some @MythVision 's videos
what does that mean?
@@MilkJugA_ blood sacrifice. Virgin birth. Demigod. Dove being the symbol of Aphrodite as a messenger at the time of Jesus' baptism.
Rising of saints from their tombs....slaughter of innocent babies by Herod.
None of them in the historical record or uncovered in archaeological records. Fascinating that there are people believe it to be true.
What feels pagan about it?
@@83croissant it has very Greek and Roman themes to it.
Turning water to wine...Dionysus did that.
Calming the sea and wind with words....that's something Odysseus claimed he could not do(well he could calm the sea since he was a son of Poseidon but not the wind) same Greek words also which is amazing.
Linen cloth is a big part of Roman culture and has many interesting literary meanings back in ancient times.
Thankful for your content.
Forget the pagan thing. We are not instructed or commanded by God, Yeshua or any of the apostles or by the example of the early Jewish Church which lasted for 100 years in Jerusalem with a succession of some 13 Jewish bishops until Gentiles from oime ethinically cleansed the Holy City of all Jews and forcefully evicted them from the land of their forefathers, to keep any holy days annually or weekly to venerate either the birth or resurrection of Yeshua as a thing.
The only instruction given at Passover on Nisan 14th, the date of both His farewell meal and His crucifixion, (due to sunset to sunset days), were the clear instructions to remember His sacrificial atoning DEATH which wrought for us salvation through His shed blood. "As often as ye do this," i.e. celebrate Passover, when unleavened bread would be freely available, not "do this as often as you like," which is basically what goes on in most Gentile denominational churches today, with some having the "Lord's Supper" at breakfast time instead of in the evening as He did, when it is usually illegal to buy or consume alcohol in normal social practice so early in the morning time.
"Christ-Mass" or "Easter" may have become cherished Gentile Christian traditions, but any stranger to reading the Bible would not find any Bible instruction to uphold or keep these things.
So, no, they may not be pagan, but we are not obligated to keep them as they are totally man-made and of much later invention than when the early Church was functioning in Israel.
However, if you go to any church you will have these things foisted upon you as if they are God's will and are made to feel terrible if one does not want to join in with all the eggs and partying.
At least the pagans made their celebrations optional and did not forcefeed them constantly.
“At least the pagans made their celebrations optional…..” Exactly, they were pagan celebrations! not The Most Highs celebrations. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is very specific with how He wants to be worshipped. So much that he tells us not to worship him like the pagans worship their gods.
Throw out the doctrines of man and read the word.
1 John 2:1-6
1 ¶ My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 ¶ And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 💥 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. 💥
--
Where in Scripture did Jesus or His Apostles observe the annual celebrations of Christmas or Easter, or the Sunday sabbath?
Where in Scripture did they eat unclean foods?
Did Jesus and/or his Apostles celebrate actual Holy Days or the weekly Sabbath as directed in Scripture?
1 John 2:6
He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
Thank God, actual primary sources !
So fascinating. Probably not your intention, but you make me a better atheist haha
I'm an atheist, but even I know that Christmas and Easter are christians Hollidays
Atheists tend to be the more intellectually voiced ones when it comes to this subject. So many Pagans just want to stick it to christianity by saying these holidays are Pagan, and a painful amount of christians think since they're not referanced in the Bible they must be evil Satanic Pagan holidays conceptualized to test the faith of true believers.
Mainstream adherents are exasperating.
Ouch. Can't argue with the data.
"people" are not convinced that the mentioned festivities are pagan. That's why is celebrated all over the world, with no distinction of religion there. Is an ecumenical instrument for sure, and obviously, the historical facts that roman empire conect both pagan and "christian" concepts , hurt the cultural tradition and this is unpopular... Facts are facts
Dan I think you make a fantastic point in this video. That even critical and high-level scholarship can make mistakes, and make claims about properly verifying them. I think what you also have to keep in mind is you’re always reading some thing through the lens of someone else, now of course it’s scholars people who are academics, Who are trustworthy sources, but at the same time we should just blindly follow them we should do our own research as well.
3:58. Clearly it has to be moved to before January 6 because they prophesied centuries ahead of time that January 6 would be a day that would live in infamy.
21 april
clemen of alexandria (stromata)
I think the sheer closeness of the Roman Holidays to Christmas, and the Easter Bunny nonsense with regard to Easter makes it an easy explanation. A subtler analysis probably involves some sort of what I heard called syncretism. When two cultures collide, there is both intentional and unconscious blending of the two. There may be some level of conscious appropriation, but it can be thought of as the cultural equivalent of the species differentiation between mainland and Galapagos finches. In response to other cultural influences, both cultures modify their practices to accommodate the new physical and cultural situation. In post conquest Peru for example, the descendants of the original Spaniards still regarded themselves as Spanish, but both the cultural and physical circumstances changed their attitudes and practices so that within two or three hundred years, the Peruvian Spaniards bore little resemblance to their counterparts in Spain. I suspect this idea would be nearly impossible to document since the impacts within each generation are subtle and somewhat unconscious. Given your assertion that no overt Roman acts of cultural appropriation can be documented, subtler, long-term changes must have come into play. I don't think my assertion is testable, but it is consistent with the changes that occurred, and the lack of any documentary evidence suggesting conscious attempts .
Agreed. I think it’s interesting to flip this around and ask “Why did Christians arrive at these times for these celebrations?” And if someone tells me that Christmas, Passover and Easter only coincidentally coincide with the solar calendar, rather than having been influenced by older traditions of celebrating these changes in the seasons, I’m inclined to disagree absent some strong indications otherwise. Similarly, we have to ask ourselves why so many of the traditions surrounding these celebrations have nothing to do with religious tenets.
@@bensalemi7783 and Hindus as well. I remember a high school presentation where various groups of the student body presented their holidays during that "Christmas" season. Our ancestors looked at the stars and noted when the shortest day was and when spring would start. It was keenly important to know when the warmer weather should be coming. How long would winter last? Astrology was a thing.
I'm betting that the ancient Druids of merry olde england had some form of Winter celebration right in that period of time that Christians celebrate their Christmas holiday.
Perhaps not "December 25th" but Diwali, Hanukah, Solstice rites.. why are they erased in favor of the Christian's selfish little holiday. (Sorry, I'm a long time survivor of the Christians' war on Christmas. Every year, the christians show how selfish they are with their politicization of the silly phrase "Merry Christmas" vs. "Happy Holidays". They show the worst aspects of themselves and make life a bit more small and darker with their bs. Besides... I really hate buying gifts and all that commercial crap. I prefer volunteering and trying to make the world a little less dark rather than indulging in greed. )
@@jenniferhunter4074 You live in a Christian country. Deal with it. There is nothing selfish about Christians wishing Merry Christmas. None of these other rites are erased. They are just the minority. As for buying gifts, it only became that important despite Christianity, not because of it. Greed is not a Christian value. As for the solstices and equinoxes, they are important for everyone and are not owned by anyone. We didn't "steel" anything. Not even pagan traditions related to Christmas, because they were brought in by Christians who were the very pagans who had these traditions that were recontextualised for their new faith.
@@bensalemi7783 Easter is related to the spring equinox because it comes from Passover, which is always celebrated on the full moon following the spring equinox. There is no coincidence there. Christmas happens on December 25th or January 6th because it was a Jewish belief at the time that saints will die on the day of their conception or birth. Christ died on the day before Passover, so he was conceived the day before Passover too. The Western Church believed it was in March 25th (still the Feast of Annunciation) and the Eastern Church believed it was April 6th. Add nine months and you have December 25th and January 6th.
@@Xerxes2005 No. That is yet another lie by Christians. I wish you would stop lying.
"“As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion, as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religious or tranquility of Musselmen, and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.”
Treaty of Tripoli. By the same generation that would have been present for my country's founding.
as for the selfishness..that is just a fact. Christians are always screeching about how companies need to say "Merry Christmas" rather than sharing a period of time where cultures around the world celebrate a holiday.
(I have no problem blaming you for Manifest Destiny and your "god given" right to own people. Notice how the christians suddenly run when anybody points out the harm that christianity has done via Christians.0
Easter Beagle indeed!
at the risk of committing the very fallacy this video warns against (with regards to my understanding of both history and biology)...it seems to me like ancient sources are the endogenous retroviruses of history - they are but shells of something that happened in the past that are still with us, whose contents can never be fully understood.
Hi Dan,
New subscriber (who's been binge-watching you all last evening). From this, I'm still unclear on why Christmas was established on Dec. 25 when it was orig. celebrated on Jan. 6. The connection to Sol Invictus and the need to supplant that celebration into Christian terms is unfounded? Do we know why the Dec. 25 date was chosen?
He has a video or two on this. I don't remember the title, but I'm pretty sure December 25th is part of it.
Oh, and Sol Invictus is a harvest celebration in the autumn.
OK, so what does the Bible say about the recognition of 25th of December for Jesus birth, Rabbits and Eggs for Easter?
Nothing!
Jeremiah 10:1-5
Idols and the Living God
1Hear the word that the LORD speaks to you, O house of Israel. 2Thus says the LORD:
“Learn not the way of the nations,
nor be dismayed at the signs of the heavens
because the nations are dismayed at them,
3for the customs of the peoples are vanity.a
A tree from the forest is cut down
and worked with an axe by the hands of a craftsman.
4They decorate it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails
so that it cannot move.
5Their idolsb are like scarecrows in a cucumber field,
and they cannot speak;
they have to be carried,
for they cannot walk.
Do not be afraid of them,
for they cannot do evil,
neither is it in them to do good.”
but you connection in the fake name! and you connect , bowdown the fake name rather than original name!🤔
I honestly couldn’t care less about whether Christmas or Easter are pagan.
Though I agree with everything Dan is saying here, I think the proximity of traditional dates chosen for Jesus's birthday, death and resurrection, and even conception to the Winter Solstice and Spring Equinox might be indicative of some attempt by early Christians to hold their own celebrations on or around these times that were important to their non-Christian rivals, perhaps to give new converts a reason not to worship other deities during these occasions.
Where does the Saturnalia connection to Xmas fit in to this?
It doesn't, Saturnalia was a different holiday
The biblical feasts are given inLev. 23.
Why change what Yah has already ordained ? The gospel is in these feasts , if we understand them. It's simple like that.
Put aside the fact that it is pagan. He tells us in scripture to not go the way of the heathen and to not follow man-made traditions.
Christianity became apostate many years ago.
Equinox celebrations. They took over times of celebration. The churches do it with other holidays now too.
✓ : )
Christianity is not completely novel. It for sure borrows from other faiths or customs everywhere it goes. This video doesn't answer where these holidays come from.
You haven't made a clear convincing case either way. In fact, you only really state the implied opinion of "you don't agree with some things in Christianity", that other faiths have similarities, and that you felt like not taking an even deeper dive into irrelevant or similar holidays would somehow add to the claim even though he made his case and covered or mentioned those other holidays enough to prove and direct attention to the sources of his claims and research, which check out.
They probably refute evidence you may have in protest to his claims and that might make you emotional and force you to also challenge your own beliefs which are likely in favor of the spiritual pagan or Wiccan side of things. The fact is, it's a some and said argument. You're allowed of course to believe what you will and celebrate what you will.
But I think the truest explanation we can derive for the celebration of Easter appears to be most associated and connected to Christianity. There have been spiritual cover ups and wars and attempts to blanket or erase history since the dawn of time. It's not surprising to see truth challenged so heavily or warped so intensely.
He was right. You're allowed to be wrong. We both win.
@@agent00chimp 😂😂 congratulations or condolences. I am not going to read all that.
Are you angry? You rant.
@@rubenharo250 😂😂😂 you call this a rant? 😂
@@MK-we9sw yes,...and useless
im happy to see your face false preacher😁🎂
There were aspects appropriated because Rome didn't stop the syncretism once it became Christian. Was ENTIRE holidays co-opted? No. But certain aspects were borrowed. All Saint's day was changed to November 1st specifically to help convert. That is a fact.
As far as December 25th, That was the lead up to Jol in Scandinavia (which was on the first full moon, after the new moon, after the Solstice), and Jarl Haakkon merged to two (before he went into hiding for womanizing). So, there is that to consider.
You're confusing Haakon Haraldsson with Haakon Sigurdsson, and misusing the word "appropriated" in this context.
holidays christmas is a pagan even in the jewish cannot cellebrate that shit! even the Creator YAHWEH he did not teach that pagan holidays😁👍🎉
Yahweh himself is a pagan god, actually. Of the caananite pantheon and he was over metallurgy and snakes, hence the early books obsession with bronze and snakes.
@@AeonStaite YAHWEH VS GOD/DOG HOTDOG that's YOUR GODisDOG You too,The WORD OF YAH dont give to those not choosen people beacuse they are all DOG and PIG
Except man god idol Trinity pagan human sacrifice Calvary is paganism 100% regardless of it's origin.
Because they are
The Aztecs also worshipped the sun god on or near December 25th. It is very well established that new rulers replaced festivities with their own and very similar gods. Researching human history alone you will find this. It’s like the hippies who say they invented modern yoga and it belongs to them. Or the cacao ceremonies that make no mention of It’s origins. Why can't humans just admit where these rituals actually came from? Not to shame those who celebrate but to honor their roots. There's no shame in admitting that easter and christmas came from the beautiful ancient rituals full of wisdom and honor.
Many claims backed by zero data
Not much evidence that Easter has Pagan origins...
However there is copious archeology, and general agreement among historians that a big mid-winter festival has been celebrated across Europe and even North Africa since around 2500 bce. 'Christmas' is just the name given to it since around 800 CE as the Christian hegenomy took hold.
Nothing important about Christmas is Christian.... Big winter party, old bearded dude bringing the feast, silly hats, pressies in socks, Mistletoe, bringing the forest into the home... All pre Christian (aka pagan).
The only Christian bits are the name and the rather pointless nativity stuff.
Collective celebrations are found in Christianity
Nothing in Pagan sources attests an old bearded man bringing the feast (which Jesus literally did)
Christianity has silly hats
Paganism didn't actually bring the forest into the home, the Christmas tree is conclusively Christian
@@thomaswillard6267 Collective celebrations are observed in ape communities.
Silly hats is Saturnalia pre-dating the addition of the name Christmas by about 600 years...
It is recorded that tradition had Odin (bearded old guy)bringing the winter feast in Norse communities.
And bringing a tree in... is indeed a late Christian tradition.... Whilst wreaths (not just of holly) and Yule logs etc predate Christianity by possibly as much as a millennium.
You need to do more research...
@@DJTheTrainmanWalker Everyone was wearing silly hats during that time period, and absolutely no Norse traditions have Odin "bringing the winter feast".
You are correct about wreaths, but funnily enough incorrect about Christmas trees. Seems like _you_ have quite a bit more research to do lmao.
Do Christians read the Bible? If it’s not in the Bible, don’t keep the holiday, simple as that
Not only is Christian a lie, Judaism is a lie taken from lying Egyptians, who lied about Atlantis.
This video is ridiculous. Are you implying that Jesus actually WAS born on exactly December 25? What support is there for that? Do you believe that people did not celebrate the winter solstice on or around that date in the past? Wow I watched your first video and was impressed by your intellect but this second one really turned me off. Your religious views are clouding your intellect to be biased in order to paint Christianity into a good light for no good reason.
Didn’t remotely say anything implying Jesus was born on December 25. There’s no support for that. Didn’t remotely say anything suggesting people did not celebrate the winter solstice on or around that date. That was the traditional date of observance of the winter solstice in Rome, but it wasn’t when the winter solstice actually happened. My religious views have absolutely nothing to do with this video. This is the academic consensus.
@@maklelan so when was Jesus born? Why do we celebrate his birth on Dec 25? You haven't explained that. Obviously the implication is that Jesus is the Sun being "born" at the Winter Solstice. The "Virgin birth" is the Sun rising into the constellation Virgo at the Winter Solstice 7000 years ago when this mythology originated. That's a plausible and satisfying explanation even if there is no documentary evidence, or data as you like to call it.
@@maklelan I appreciate the video but then there is absolutely nothing remotely like a academic consensus for this particular issue, there is a wide variety of different opinions when it comes to this issue, it’s by no means a consensus.
@@charlo90952 according to many scholars on early Christianity in early Christian traditions, i’ve read including Luke Timothy Johnson believe that the reason for Christmas being celebrated on December 25, had to do with a tradition that was early in Christianity is history, where they believed you would die on the same day you were conceived, and Jesus died sometime in late March, probably March 25, so if you take nine months away from March 25 what do you get December 25, it’s a pretty weird tradition, there are some scholars who object to it.
@@pleaseenteraname1103 well ok maybe. Doesn't sound very convincing. It's too much of a coincidence that it occurs so close to the winter solstice. Gods are really just natural events personified. All ancient cultures were anchored to the cardinal points of the year, the solstices, equinoxes and mid points as in Celtic tradition. Hence the birth of solar dieties at the winter solstice and death at the equinox.
Because they are.
Christmas is the Roman Saturnalia
Easter is the Babylonian Istar
Valentine is the Roman lupricalia ect
Christmas _replaced_ Saturnalia, Easter has absolutely no association with Ishtar, and all Valentines day has in common with Lupricalia is the date. They're all Christian/Catholic holidays, Halloween is too, that's why Pagans don't celebrate these holidays lmfao.
bishop dan!!!!!!!!!!!