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Measuring for Parallelism Using the Granite Surface Plate
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- čas přidán 27. 11. 2023
- Our freshly machined hardtail vise swivel plate is set on the granite surface plate and inspected for parallelism. This was a simple inspection using our granite plate and dial indicator to see just how well our lathe fixture worked for facing off the bottom side.
#granitesurfaceplate #starrett #precision #machineshop
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this is a demonstration. he said fun exercise which is a perfect explanation. the channel is both informational and entertaining. yes the vice project is ridiculous over kill. but thats exactly what its supposed to be. i enjoyed the vid
I'm sure this will end up the most precisely machined vise in existence. I'd never want to use it after all that work!
It’s a bench vice that will never be mounted to a precision surface. I would have been happy with a plus or minus 10 thousands trying to do what he did!
Yup a bench vise. It will be mounted to a precision ground surface that will be mounted to a lapped intercooled 3ft plate and floating on 20 ft piles sunk in the ground with a magnafux core to keep it accurate. I will than show you how I take a 2"x1/4"x6" lg piece of cold rolled flat bar and hit it with my 5lb hammer to make a wall bracket. See my combination square shows its 90 degrees!
Except for the part where he accidentally cut too deep on the top anvil surface...
exactly...
@@BramBiesiekierski You should let Adam know how you feel about it.. and maybe he'll make a video and make the cut disappear.
I really noticed how you set your zero based on the variation of the tool marks. I don't remember that being explained to me years ago so I appreciate you for making this video.
Thanks, Abom!
I love that big indicator base. I just noticed it's dovetailed on one side and t-slots on the other. That's cool
Adam, not only are you an amazing machinist, Master Class imho, but the quality of your presentations, instruction and professionalism are spot on! You have REALLY become a Master host!
I worked for Boeing in Seattle many years ago as a jig builder. One of the coolest places to work was "the gauge room". We worked off of two foot thick, massive granite tables in a climate controlled room with a max tolerance of .002. Good times. In the day, MEK was the choice chemical to clean the table...probably not a good idea nowadays. Thanks for educating the masses Adam. Great demo!
I used to work for Boeing in Wichita, KS as a jig builder. I have a couple of validations he didn’t check. Run a .001 between the bottom of the base and the granite. And I would be using last word indicator or a CMM and scan the whole plate.
MEK=methyl ethyl death.
@@bretlambky , see my comment. A lot of castings that have mounting tabs like this vise bottom have some extra metal on the bottom of each tab. If the bottoms of the tabs are first milled down to be coplanar, the vise bottom will not be twisted when you clamp it down to a flat table. Even more important, if you machine a fixture to hold the part during machining, the part will not be machined while in a distorted form.
Adam you have a gift with the way you explain a technique and the principles behind it. You my friend are a great machinist but an even better person. God bless you and your family.
How much do you need to borrow?
He’s also an excellent teacher, perhaps the most important thing of all ❤
Can you make a video on how to calibrate with precision - hammers & drift punches before use?
Absolutely love seeing this process. It still amazes me how simple and easy you make this look.
its not that hard
If anything, the process was incomplete. If he were to sell that item as stand alone, how would he go about measuring it for both flatness and parallelism and from there deduce a quoted spec for both. If it was a machining firm's item to sell, the entire surface ( presumably both sides) would be scanned and mapped on the CMM and it would come up with a spec for both parallelism and flatness.
Really appreciate it. I don't work in the tool room at work but I am a machine operator and I have to measure parts that we produce using digital calipers and a digital height gauge on a reference surface, similar to your setup but my surface is smaller. Thanks.
ima cnc machine crasher but hey we have a good time and thats what counts!
As a hobbyist, my plate is a 12 x 12. Used it to check my scrapping technique on an import rotary table. Loved the process.
Somewhere, in a CNC machine shop, Cryin Steve Colluns is being reprimanded for using every last pig mat to absorb his tears because he can no longer troll these videos.
What happened to old crying Steve? Did he get banned or what?
😂 🎯👌🏼
He just needs to invent a new channel name. Simples.
Considering it was a big ole interrupted cut and it was singing like it was… that is really good.
Like you said, it’s a Vise Base.. and most vises get bolted to tables that are in less then good shape..
These videos are just awesome, its a great way to see inside your mind and how you measure things like this! Precision all the way!
Your inspection videos are some of my favorite. As a surveyor, I commonly tell people my job is to measure stuff accurately. That granite table is a true reference piece.
Hey Adam, I just want to say that I love your videos! I have been watching your videos for probably 2 years now and I have yet to watch a video that I didn’t like or gained knowledge from. I am a welder/fabricator and watching your videos has opened my eyes to the world of machining. Your welding videos has helped me in my welding career as well. And I like how you add the tool model number as you use them. Amazing work!
A good show of tolerance stacking. There's what the lathe/tool gave, plus instrument accuracy, plus even a great inspection plate isn't perfect. Considering the initial chatter problems of the cut, this did turn out fairly well. Chasing more probably winds up at surface grinding but... this piece isn't going to space.
you could check it on another side of the table and see if is the peace or the table have a diviation
Thank you for educating and entertaining me tonight Abom!
Adam. You’re awesome. Thanks for sharing this info with the interwebs.
I’m willing to bet that if you had used jacks to support the ears like many mentioned, it would’ve been further out. Nice work!
Right, because even the minimal pressure needed to make the jack stay in place would deflect the ears at least .005 and they would be low.
Great tutorial video on using the granite plate to check your vise base.
Thanks for sharing.
Adam my name is Habibi from India. You inspired me to make my own granite surface plate out of limestone. I quarried if from the dirt and lapped it by hand with using only sand and water with a washcloth. I was able to get it within .000001 millionths over a 14ft by 6ft plate. Thank you for helping my village people with your knowledge. And don’t forget to wipe it and then wipe it again before using.
❤ I like the way you share the knowledge to help others.
Myself have many hours on the tool room surface plates.
Yup a bench vise. It will be mounted to a precision ground surface that will be mounted to a lapped intercooled 3ft plate and floating on 20 ft piles sunk in the ground with a magnafux core to keep it accurate. I will than show you how I take a 2"x1/4"x6" lg piece of cold rolled flat bar and hit it with my 5lb hammer to make a wall bracket. See my combination square shows its 90 degrees!
That's awesome Bud! I'm happy for ya'll!
Any chance of the casting relaxing after removing the hard skin. If after doing an initial machining, leaving the work piece for several days / weeks before finishing might be needed if you are looking for precision. But then again this is just a bench vise and this is a good example of work setup, machining and inspection.
Nice to see the big rock earning its keep!
As someone trained in physics, a big granite surface plate and a set of precision measuring instruments stirs my heart! Later, it would be fun to see you work with the vise manufacturer to reduce the cost of manufacturing. It would seem that you need flatness on the bottom to only about 10 thousands or so, except for the four bolt anchors. I don't know the details of this part, but I would bet that the swivel surfaces should be circular, planar, and either coplanar or on parallel planes (i.e. offset) to a much higher tolerance. In inspection, you could put the four corners (on precision shims) down on the granite plate. You could then inspect the two swivel surfaces for flatness and geometry.
You did a great job, Adam. Keep using that inspection room!
Your last comment about helping machinists to learn is commendable. While a vise can be quite rough in machining accuracy, this will not always be the case, as you point out. The cumulative error as you assemble the pieces can come back to bite you. If you need to be within a tolerance of ×/- 0.01" overall, a combination of differences could the front cause the vise to bind.
I had a Chevy Monza that had the front end crushed in an accident. After repairs, the car looked great, and everything fit. But, there was a squealing noise when breaking when decelerating on freeway offramps with a downhill grade. On inspection, everything looked fine. Eventually, the radiator started leaking. The radiator was worn in one small spot, where the fan blades struck. The fan blade-radiator clearance complied with the minimum cold engine clearance. When the car decelerated on a downhill ramp, the fan blades deflected, and the frame was compressed from the accident that contact was made. The Chevrolet dealer was able to "stretch" the front end by loosening all the bolts holding the front end together and pulling the pieces apart as far as the clearances in the holes would allow. In all the front end was stretched about 3/16" in length. I never heard the squealing again. The radiator stayed tight. The car lasted 5 more years
Great video
Adam. You are doing good things by sharing what you know :).
It's delightful learning from your videos
Adam is the American flag that was behind you Is that a peace of metal from trade centers. absolutely beautiful.
Great video,Adam and quite a pleasure to see all this excellent equipment that you have.Thank you.
Grear show as always! Your gauge block set should have .050 and/or.100 wear blocks, this is where they come in handy. Stops that rattle on your dial.
Got to know a flat datum to measure parallel features. I am certian that the base is fine.
We can't live with this! Bring it to your shaper and fix it! 😊
Nice work Adam, and a great example of what the tools are for
Anybody can develope vices in life, Adam just has the largest most precisely machined ones 😂
Good evening Adam,
I really appreciate your videos. You show real world projects and how to achieve success. Thank you. I enjoy Mr. Pete for showing us the basics of how to set up the project and I marvel at the progression of machining watching Titans of Machining. It’s really exciting to see the progression and what this profession offers.
Your channel is real world jobs that most of your viewers could encounter, and thanks to your clear and concise approach, we can get the job done too.
Keep up the great videos.
And to those that complain about your videos, they need to unsubscribe.
Happy Holidays.
Great job!
Adam, do you have a channel where you build things? That would be awesome.
This is it. Look back... there are videos going back 10+ years. Adam has built, rebuilt, and repaired LOTS of thing.
This part does not need to be nearly this parallel. Adam is simply demonstrating how to measure parallelism on a surface plate using the vise base as an example.
I was wondering if gage blocks stick to the granite like they do each other, that was so cool to see how they were so flat they stuck in one of your other videos. I sort of imagine they wouldn't stick to the granite, but it'd amaze me if they did. Thanks for another video!
No, gage blocks will not stick to granite. They stick, “wring” to each other due to their extreme flatness of a few millionths of an inch or millimeter.
@ellieprice363 i knew thats why they wrung together, which is still super cool. i also kind of thought that it wouldn't stick to the granite, i bet if you looked at the granite under magnification, it'd be porous. I still thought there'd be a chance since the granite is super flat as well.
The granite is super flat but not in the ballpark with gage blocks. Plus the porosity would defeat wringing as you guessed.
Good video Thanks Adam
You’re going to have to scrape your bench top flat to bolt that vice down now 😂 it will sit up on the high spots on your work bench
Can you flip the vise base over and place the bottom side onto the granite plate? Measure for parallel along the upper surface. Also, it would be interesting to see what the factory base would show. Take your factory finished vice apart and measure it for parallelism.
Thanks for sharing. Great work two over a span fourteen or so. I bet the work bench it’s going on isn’t that flat.
I love your videos. Great job
Anyone elese screaming inside everytime he whipes the plate with his bare hands or is it just me? 🤣
It's just You.
You and everyone else who doesn't understand how to use a surface plate in a machine shop environment. Adam has a whole series of videos about that plate. How he ordered it, installed it, takes care of it, and this is just one of the growing number on how to use it.
Just to be clear, a piece of copy paper used in most printers or copying machines is 4 thousandths of an inch thick! The outcome of the machining of this swivel plate is half the thickness of a piece of paper! At this point, the temperature of the swivel plate would have more of an effect on the quality of a machining job. Just amazing work!
And actually, 60lb paper is .004" but the most common printer paper today that almost everyone uses is 50lb which is .0035" And it's very consistent.
I sure hope that this vise is going to get a custom surface finish of some sort, chrome, cerakote, ceramic, ect.
As you say, you don't need that level of accuracy for the vise base, but it's a nice demo of how good the American Pacemaker is when you do need that level of accuracy sometime.
Can always scrape it if you want it better than that. 🙂
Am I the only one who keeps looking at that American flag on the wall. That looks amazing.... 😮
nice finish
3 thou parallel on a piece that large is outstanding
This vise may have been cast in the USA, but YOU are making MADE in the USA. 🇺🇸🇺🇸
Would be interesting g to see how the center compares with the edges--is the surface dished in or out?
Thanks for sharing
Good job!! Did you measure the center? LOL
Great video.
OK so to find out which side is off I'm guessing youwould check with a feeler gauge & the surface plate & then probably use a surface grinder to fix it if it had to be prefect
thanks learned a lot
love how you take care of ye tools meh boy this is fucking awesome, thank you for you content Abom79.
So cool
Good stuff
I wonder how much of that variance you're seeing is due to thermal stresses differing between when you turned it on the lathe and when you put it on a cold granite plate? Also, I'd be very curious to see what readings you get going around on the top surface if you flipped it over.
Yes, I was wondering what the effect would be to move the vise base plate around on the granite and making the same measurements.
@@TheGregstorm That would be a good sanity check. It should be the same.
Interesting that the two areas most 'out' are opposite each other, both in orientation and direction. Does that indicate a problem with the lathe or the chuck?
Because it was turned on an arbor, those kind of problems are probably not the cause. More likely is that the casting 'relaxed' into that shape after turning was complete - the casting is slightly asymmetrical with the access hole cast in. It could also be because the casting did not cool uniformly and is a little harder on one side leading to differing tool deflection. Most importantly, that small an error on a casting that big is a great result. Just snugging up the mounting bolts will cause more deflection than he is measuring. He and his tools are both outstanding.
You should use this part to show how to check flatness too. Not that it's critical on this job, but as a learning tool.
For those of us that are uninformed I think it would be interesting if you could explain or possibly show a couple comparisons of how small a 1 thousandth of an inch is. I see the indicator moving but when you say a couple tenths of a thousandth just how small is that?
If you plucked a hair from your head, that would be about .003" or three thousandths. If you split that hair equally into three pieces the long way and threw two strands away, that would be .001" or one thousandths. If you took that last remaining strand and split it into 10 equal strands the long way, then thew 9 of those away, you would be left with one strand that was .0001" or one ten thousandths. Often abbreviated in machining to be called a tenth.
A piece of printer paper is also about .003" thick
i use a set of feeler guages and peel out the .0015. use good lighting and look at it from the edge up close. its a great visual and can train your eye too.
If that minute a dust makes a difference, even more so the oils or sweat or dead skin from a hand.
Hi Adam, I surprised that you are not scraping it in (joke)! Good educational video
Liked
great videos. but the perfectionist part of me would want to know what the variation in the jaw surfaces is on the lath and the variation in the fixture made to hold the base.
Why? The "variation in the jaw surfaces" have nothing to do with the end product. The fixture that was turned on the lathe and never moved is as accurate as the condition of the spindle bearings. The vise base was mounted solidly to the fixture but, as I recall, it wasn't quite large enough to make contact with the outermost machined surface from the first setup. Then he was making an interrupted cut on a raw casting with many variations in cross section. I am surprised that it came out as close as it did.
If you rotate the plate 180 degrees do you get the same readings?
Adam, I love your videos and how you help others grow in their knowledge. It would be great if you did a video on precision vs time issue. When do you need the extra precision and what does it cost you? Not everything needs to be so precise, right?
How do they make the granite surface plate so flat to begin with? I would guess a fabrication method like lapping, but then how do they measure and QC it? Optical method, like a big interferometer? Just curious. Really enjoy all your videos.
He has a good video with his friend Lance: “ lapping a granite surface plate” ( or a similar name).
I am surprised you did'nt blue the surface plate and rub the top & bottom vice surfaces to double check.
2:43 Sounds like an opportunity for a project. Get some air-handling in the office to filter-out the dust. Sure, you won't reach clean-room levels, but I bet some significant imprvement can be made.
Could that be improved by honing it on a surface plate, with some emery glued to the surface?
Be interesting if you could put the camera eye level with the plate -- I don't know, can you even visually see 2 thousandths out of flatness?
That is a beautiful surface plate. What do you use for a dust cover when you are not using it?
he has a dust cover shown in previous vids.
I will have to go back and watch that. @@MrChevelle83
I wonder whether the thin section of metal deflected under the tool pressure. That might account for the two thousandths.
Adam, great vid. What is the difference between surface flatness vs. Surface finish. You discussed the tool marks, but it seems the surface has a good flatness but 'rough' finish. What are the surface finish requirements for your granite plate?
Hi ! How to be sure that the "default" isn't from the granite ....
You should see the mess i have now. My new to me 4 tool post for my Leblond needed a new compound lower clamp insert. Simple. I found a nice peice of steel, and cut it to fit, in the Index 40H. And it has virtually no play. So next step is to drill the center fixing bolt and 2 alignment pin holes. Guess what. the pins in the center body are NOT aligned with the flats in the tool body. Even the old lower clamp has the pins crooked. ???? What lurch did this? If i drill the holes straight the tool it is 5-6 degrees crooked, and with no play its not going to happen. SO i need to A. Drill the pin holes crooked in the new clamp. OR B. drill them straight, and then redrill the center body so that it ends up with a straight tool. If you read this, what would you do?
Thanks Adam. Always interesting. I know you've spent a lot of time on these hardtail vise videos. Is there any chance we may see 30 of them set up for machining on the Flex CNC 🤔
Are you going to machine the surface where the center shoulder bolt head sits against?
That surface really doesn't need to be machined other than to clean it up. Which he may do later. The center pivot bolt doesn't bottom out on it. If it did, the vise wouldn't swivel.
A good Machinist knows where accuracy matters and where it doesn’t
And a good engineer specifies where accuracy matters and where it doesn't. Simply saying +/- 0.000001" on ever dimension is time consuming, expensive, and does not end in a better design.
What are you trying to say ?
Did you blue up the surfaces to see how flat they are?
Adam, what's the US map in the background? Is it the places you've visited?
Curious, how would you go about fixing that two thousand discrepancy?
What do you mean by "fixing"? Reducing it to one thousandth? A half a thousandth? Remember the part is within a thousandth of overall thickness after machining already. Cut any more material off of it and the part will be further out of spec.
You don't. But if it was actually necessary and the customer was paying a several thousand dollars, the next step is grinding. After that would be scraping.
But what can you use this for? How do you fix the plate so it does become parallel after you have inspected that it is not?
It would be interesting to see you flip that base over and check for rocking of the surface on the granite plate to see if you really got the base flat. Then check the round bearing surface for variation in height in the orientation that the vise will be assembled
Adam, where did you get that flag that’s hanging on the wall? Beautiful! Also, won’t you damage your granite plate by pushing the fixture around on it?
It was given to him by someone in the navy. That flag was on a US Warship.
When I see the flag on your wall, I see 9/11. Still breaks my heart. I'm Canadian.
I'm not a machinist, but I enjoyed the video. I'm actually into good filming. This channel doesn't miss. Thanks
Between 0.002 out of parallel and the slight hiccup on the anvil, I think you should junk the vise. Go ahead and finish the project and then I'll take it off your hands.
Measure the other vice for reference.
Great Video, I love the explanations of how to use the various tools. A little concerned about wiping the granite plate with your hand to remove dust, would a semiconductor cleanroom grade lint free wipe be a better choice, or am I overthinking it?
Yes you are overthinking it. Keep in mind that SOP for using gage blocks is to wipe them on the inside of your wrist before they are wrung together. The human hand and the nerves in your skin can detect the tiniest amount of dust or grit. If you ever get near a surface plate and they actually let you touch it you will notice this immediately. Basically... "When it feels clean it is clean enough."