The NOT Seiken Densetsu Retrospective - Secret of Evermore (SNES)
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- čas přidán 19. 09. 2018
- Deviating a bit from the proper series, I thought it was worth taking a look at a title that, while not a Seiken Densetsu game, is frequently confused with being one and has its own strange place in Square's history.
This video was on Patreon a week ago: / scxcr - Hry
Secret of Evermore had a very special feel to it, it was so atmospheric. Very unique game.
Reminded me of a lot of Macintosh games of the time
My only question is, did the boy really get home? Cause at the end everyone was all together except the boy and his dog, then he say that strange sign on the theater.
Cure and heal makes sense in Evermore. You heal wounds and you cure poison.
Those were my thoughts exactly. It has been every other game that has gotten the use of the language incorrect.
Saul Esquivel evermore is American so the english is better
@@GodzillaFreak The English is MUCH better. The game is actually playable and makes sense. Most SNES RPGs were translated so poorly that they don't even make sense
@@aFrench88channel Even the jokes hit. Basically unheard of.
@@GodzillaFreak Oh yes, "Pane in the glass" is a classic lol
The atmosphere of Evermore was what really stood out. There was always a sense of foreboding and creepiness. Very underrated.
@scxcr - Brian Fehdrau here. I was looking for something else to do with Evermore when saw your video and decided to watch it. Some commentary follows below...
2:14 *"Vexx (and the Mesmers)":* Based on my recollection of Alan working out the details of the story and talking to me about them as they evolved, it wasn't conceived in 1989, nor was it conceived by Doug. We didn't start work until 1993, and Alan was the lead writer. I guess it's possible that Doug gave him the general idea and had him run with it.
Sadly, Doug shuffled off this mortal coil a while back, but I guess Alan could set the record straight if someone were to track him down.
3:07 *Me:* Hey, you pronounced my name correctly! Thanks! :) I was hired as the lead programmer, not as a designer. And yes, it was my first job in the industry. I had programmed in assembly language on the 6502/6510 processors, which were the predecessors to the 65816 in the SNES, and I was also a long-time fan of RPGs, so I think that won them over in the interview. Or maybe no one else answered the ad. I dunno. XD
Square had specifically told Doug to hire unknowns. Why, I don't know. Maybe they were looking for new talent? Maybe they were trying to save money on a questionable project? Maybe someone over in Japan was trying to sabotage the efforts of the person who green-lit the project? (Japanese office politics can be very opaque and cutthroat; see: Konami vs. Hideo Kojima.) All in all, it was pretty strange to hire an unproven unknown for your lead programmer. My lucky break, though!
4:46 *"Evermore":* The name changed when it was felt the Vexx story just wasn't going to pass muster and we had to start over with a new one. I'm pretty sure I recall everyone meeting up at some point in the open area next to the cubes and discussing the list of name options for the newly-proposed story.
I can't confirm or deny Jeremy's assertion that he had randomly written "evermore" on his whiteboard and we'd all liked it. I will say I don't _remember_ that, but that doesn't mean very much with my fading memory. I know it was chosen from among several the team had come up with, so he may be right that he'd written it there and someone had said he should put it on the list. It's a long time ago, sorry!
5:34 *The "Secret of..." addition:* Yeah, I've told people it was only 2-3 months before we were done. But I also tell pretty much everyone I ever talk to that it was (depending on the year) 10-25+ years ago and my memory is _crap,_ so they should not take anything I say as gospel.
I probably just remember it that way because, when the name changed, I thought, "We're almost done and _now_ they're gonna change the damned name just to ride Mana's coattails...?", but the delivery date was constantly sliding and we were very likely nowhere near done.
Also keep in mind that we "finished" the game long before it hit store shelves. Back then, as a self-publishing dev, there was a _lot_ more to do after the game was "finished" from the studio's point of view:
• You would then carefully fill out actual paperwork while you literally waited hours for the eeprom burner to finish writing your submission onto physical chips, then submit those to NOA (which we did in person since they were nearby), wait days for their QA testing, get an inevitable rejection, spend days fixing the problems, then rinse-and-repeat until you got NOA approval. This could take weeks, depending on how many problems they found.
• Once approved, your roms could then be given to a cart manufacturer, who would place them in a queue that already had several other games in it ahead of yours. As I recall, it could be a month or more before the manufacturing run was actually finished, depending on congestion at the manufacturer.
• Once manufactured, the carts would be crated up and sent by the most cost-effective freight method (i.e. slow) back to you. You then had to divvy them up yourself and send them by freight _again_ to your regional distributors, who would then divvy them up _again_ and send them out on trucks to the stores in their region.
I don't remember how long that process was for Evermore specifically, but I'm pretty sure we did our first submission to NOA in early summer of 1995 and that we had to resubmit more than once.
TL;DR: Apparently it wasn't 2-3 months, but I don't think it was 8 either. Maybe it was 5ish?
Honestly, that time is a blur of crunch and mental/physical fatigue. I can really only guarantee to you that the game was initially named just "Evermore" and that it was only changed later for marketing reasons.
8:04 *TV ad:* (cough) Good thing ContentID isn't engaged on my channel, huh? ;) No worries, though, it's not my content either, really. I'm glad you got some (fair) use out of it. :)
11:37 *Single-player only:* Yeah, sorry about that. We weren't confident we could reliably keep you from soft-locking somehow with P2 in a part of the screen they couldn't get out of while P1 couldn't get the screen to move enough to let them out. This can even happen in Mana, despite the care they took. Consider all of our other soft-lock problems and ask yourself whether or not we made the right call, I guess.
For what it's worth, someone did a romhack that allows you to control the second character, so if you're careful not to let a soft-lock happen, it's now possible with emulation.
18:02 *"The Boy":* This is because the game is built around (semi-fictional) Americana, including the core concept of the archetype, "a boy and his dog". It's understandable if you weren't familiar with that or didn't catch it, but still, there _is_ a reason why he's referred to as "the boy" rather than -Marty McBoy- something specific.
Side note about naming: The best _dog_ name I've seen is "MY DUDE". It makes the boy's dialogue with the dog much funnier.
I'll agree, though, that his bland B-movie-fan personality is pretty... meh. I never really got behind the B-movie shtick. But what do I know? I write software, not stories. Some people loved it, much to my surprise. Also remember the target audience wasn't really "jaded adults".
25:47 *Chain alchemy:* Okay, so, your criticisms are generally reasonable. If you wonder why I'm skipping over long stretches of the video without comment, it's either because I think your criticisms are valid or I think your subjective opinions are reasonable. This one, however, I'll call out, especially since it's presented at length and with great importance:
*That you can exploit something that's obviously not intended and also not the way the game is intuitively played is **_not_** a valid criticism.*
This game was written 25+ years ago by a small team with only 2-3 QA testers. It's an RPG, too, the _worst_ kind of game to keep reined in, bug-wise. We couldn't find everything before release and we couldn't patch post-release as is common now.
Beating "every. single. boss." with a tactic that you _clearly_ knew was an exploit and using it as a criticism in your commentary is ... I'll just say, "pretty unreasonable". You might as well use a Game Genie and criticize us for how the game is too easy when you're immortal. :P
31:20 *Pixie Dust:* I guess this doesn't really matter, since I readily admit the game had bugs and I'm genuinely very sorry about that (I've agonized for years over it, in fact), but...
In the case you presented, I think the 41 damage you took in the first frame shown may have used up your pixie dust. The purple aura fades and doesn't return before you're hit again and die. Check your original footage and see what your HP was before the 41 damage to confirm or dismiss this theory.
If I'm right about that... well, I don't remember if the pixie dust produced a message when used up, but if it didn't, that would be the _real_ problem with the spell's implementation.
32:54 *Magmar:* Hey, _our_ Magmar pre-dated theirs. :P
_OG Magmar, yo_
41:24 *Bugs:* See my apology above. I've felt bad about the bugs we shipped with for many years. I'm sorry we let so many slip through. I feel crappy about the inevitable anguish that caused some (many?) players. I don't know what else to say.
For what it's worth, there's a romhack out there that not only fixes many of the bugs (e.g. the silver sheath) but also balances a few the OP spell interactions that we didn't catch. I'm not sure if it includes the 2P hack.
Oh, but I must say: complaining about currency wrapping at 16+ million is a bit over-the-top. No normal playthrough produces a number like that. Were you exploiting again? :P
42:46 *Don't taunt the chickens:* I'm the one who added this. In my headcanon, the voice addressing you is _mine,_ albeit booming around inside your head _a la_ Terry Pratchett's version of Death (thus the allcaps).
I don't think I knew about the Zelda chickens at the time. I've heard about them since, but I only just now googled to see what the details are. Japan's a lot less forgiving! The "revenge squad" will _kill_ you! At least I left you with alive with 1hp! :)
Hmm... I wonder... are game devs naturally protective of chickens? ;)
46:30 *Pyramid maze:* I really wish we had just cut this map or at least made the navigation work more traditionally. This and the fact that there isn't a save point close to Thraxx cause me much retrospective grief. I hate thinking about kids throwing their controller on the floor in anger. I've been there, I know the pain.
1:12:50 *Dolly Grip:* She liked it. I did it again in other games. :) It's dumb, I know, but I'm an engineer, not a romance novelist.
-- CZcams's failing to post this, due to length, so I'll finish up in the first reply --
-- continued from OP due to CZcams balking at the length --
1:16:10 *Fin:* All in all, a reasonable commentary. I want to say that you were a little too nit-picky in places, but that's just a matter of your playing the game as an adult who is capable of critical thinking, rather than a member of the inexperienced (pre-)teen target audience, so that's quite understandable. Well, _mostly._ ;) But your experience was what it was and I wouldn't try to deny any of it.
I've noticed, by the way, that the people who tell me they loved the game are usually those who are speaking as adult versions of the child who actually played it. This jibes with my own memories of amazing games, movies, etc. Some hold up, but the majority only worked for my younger self, and these days I prefer to leave most of my fond memories as memories, to avoid ruining them by revisiting them.
Anyway, thanks for playing the game, and also for taking the time to make a pretty-well-researched video about your experience. :)
Iam glad that you are active in the community and commenting on all sorts of stuff.
@@maluramichael Gotta keep busy somehow. ;)
ItsBillsFault true. Especially right now. Hope you are doing good.
Brian, thank you very much. This was an interesting read. Actually I couldn't really get into the game as a young adult back then, but after revisiting (and finally finishing it!) last year in May, I have to say it really is a special game - and fun despite its flaws. Huge in atmosphere, great ambient background sounds.
Holy shit that ad for the game triggered a flashback of the only time I had ever seen this game back in the day - on an advert VHS I got from some flea market around a year or two post the game's release. That's definitely something I straight up forgot existed at one point in time - commercially sold advert VHS. Goddamn I feel ancient.
And yet no one remembers what the Magic Gourd does and or doesn't do. lol But I love Evermore. I would love a highly unlikely remaster.
Yeah, given the fact that it was supposed to do something at one point, but not only did the programmers forget to actually give it its functionality, but even when asked about it, they say that they long forgot what it was supposed to do in the first place is just hilarious and complements the game’s charm given that it’s a completely useless item under the advertisement of being vaguely and mysteriously magical given to you in a flea market.
@@luizguilhermelunardi8270 you would need to get George Sinfield's take on the magic gourd. I worked with him every day on items and other stuff and i can picture it perhaps being magic in name only was funny to us at the time.
After 24 years still one of my comfort game
I dig that man, I recently got the rom to do a fun playthrough😄🍻
Omg I laughed so hard at the deadly towers stare.. Holy shit I felt that
42:45 If you press B in this conversation he will thank you for your kindness and gives you some gear.
Sorry for being late to this wonderful retrospective series...I love the Mana series, and I also love Secret of Evermore, since it has such a deep atmosphere. Since the gameplay is heavily inspired by Secret of Mana, there's nothing for me to worry about there too. Such a good gaming era...together with Terranigma, Lufia II RotS and Illusion of Gaia it"s one of the big in one for me. And definitely in my Top 3. Never played Earthbound up until now, in case someone was missing that one in my list.
you can dispel the reflect of the mana-beast, cast acid rain and then all weapons do damage in high three digit range
One thing not mentioned in this 60+ minute video: the boy runs faster with SPEARS equipped.
WHaaaaaat?!....
BTW, the plans in omnitopia are coded in to kill the boy. I tried that area with PAR codes, decking out in impossible defences and he still died with 999 damage.
Man this is a throw back from way back when. Loved this game. Took me a while to figure out the weapon charge as a 5 year old. Good thing i grinded exp an leveled up my weapons unknowingly lol. I accidentallty charged my spiders claw lvl three an unleashed the strongest attack. Awesome memories
Mine was the horn spear....
Salabog didn't know what hit em.....
The Alchemy system.
Music from Jeremy Soules.
And your pet becomes K9 from Dr who.
Sign me up!
I'm proud having this game in my library.
I love your sarcasm, but some of your complaints about the game’s complexities are just whiny. Like the currency differences in areas and trading in the market. Otherwise, a funny review of, what I considered a fantastic game.
One of my favorite games despite its flaws, and an absolute masterpiece of a soundtrack.
I just got here please I like be here, let me stay… and please listen to Horace’s song
Underrated game.
Thank you for this, Evermore needs more love.
I'm pretty sure the two mystery sprites in Nobillia are the Sprite and Shop Keeper from Secret of Mana.
Sad that SoE didn't receive the attention it deserved. I consider it a masterpiece and even more so now, after learning about its development. Design, the somber atmosphere, Soule's amazing soundtrack... SoE is certainly not perfect but that's what makes it charming. SoM, on the other hand, gave me headaches as a child because it was too loud and sugary for my taste.
Same. It wasn't my first RPG, I'd played a couple of Dragon Warrior games before that, Secret of Mana as well, and some other random RPGs. But Evermore blew my away. I consider it a masterpiece up there with EarthBound and Chrono Trigger.
Liquid Fire Eyes really got me
You are so good at it.
Best game review I have seen so far.
The part where you were waiting for a good game pedigree... I laughed my glass off ^^
Thanks for the video
Ngl i love this game a lot, even if it isn't part of Seiken Densetsu, idk I have a lot of fond memories of it.
For the young me who also rented the game from my local grocery store. This game was incredibly interesting. Secret of mana was all bright and colorful and cheerful even. All things a young american boy didnt like. Evermore had stupid humor puns and explosions. The obviously campy story line felt just right.
As a huge Squaresoft RPG fan back in the day I had no trouble discovering this game. All it needed was that Squaresoft logo for me to know it was a winner and sure enough it was one of my faves on the Super NES.
38:28 they kinda look like characters from Treasure Hunter G but it could also be Treasure of the Rudras or Bahamut Lagoon all those Square games were in development at the same time and it could have been a small easter egg reference.
Dude love this video. Great Job on it!!!!
1:01:07 Reminds me of how Earthworm Jim 3D was based on the TV show. BUT said game released long after said show went off the air.
Damn good and well made. Why is this video getting a low view?
Scrappy Pom cringed comedy and nit picking complaints , that’s why.
Didn't agree with some of the game flaws that you mention in your "review", but either way, love this game ;-) hope someday come it will be release on steam...
I dont really think the game had any big flaws, Secret of mana had much more annoying flaws
Mana is the better game, but boy do I love Evermore still!
These videos are all great. You could also do Illusion of Gaia and Terranigma in case you played them. The have a very similar feel, gameplay wise, even though they are a bit darker.
I don't mind a nameless protagonist. Makes it very easy to identify with the hero if its supposed to be me
I recall buying this in 1996, thinking it was in the secret of mana series. I was definitely disappointed, but I did finish the game. Wasn't great, but playable.
I loved this game and appreciate this long form review.
It is kinda scify horror comedic rpg adventure masterpiece. Iove the approach
Woah, I thought this video was released in 2008!
Most UNDERRATED Game Ever
Best RPG on SNES with some company though.
Because it's kick ass....
"I forgot it existed until I saw it on store shelves" - That's exactly what happened with me and Secret of Mana. I saw the commercial maybe _once_ in-between episodes of Beavis and Butthead. Then I went to the video store a month after and was looking at games. Was eyeing Final Fantasy and S.O.M. - glad I picked the latter because I hate menu battle RPGs.
I want a remake so bad I litteraly just rediscovered Evermore after looking at old Nintendo power magazines
58:52 that is the advisor of the not-Hector in world 2, he somehow got here to world 3 (even though the worlds are separated by sea) yet the game does nothing with him (considering he is the advisor of 2 major antagonists, he should have a bigger role in game) after this scene, he truly disappears...
Awesome. This was my favourite game as a kid.
Those other 2 characters, to me, look like Gogo and Celes.
Good work SCXCR. As usual. Couple questions:
1) Would you say the game is worth what it's going for on EBay? Generally a minimum of $30? And would you recommend trying to get one of the unofficial versions that puts co-op into the game?
2) Although I can't imagine why you'd be skipping them, I wanted to see if you planned on covering Legend of Mana, Sword of Mana, and Children of Mana in the retrospective. The only reason I'm asking is because you haven't included footage of them in your opening.
1. Even though I have a few problems with Evermore, I'd still be willing to pay that for it. And for the co-op modded versions, assuming you have someone to play with, sure.
2. I only had so many close-up shots for the intro sequence, so I had to pick and choose which games from the series got shown. I'm planning to cover everything I possibly can from the series, even if in some cases it means doing a really short video for the mobile games.
scxcr Okay, thanks. I'll consider grabbing the game, though I tend to prefer keeping my purchases under $20. Maybe if the value increases over the next few months I'll nab it just to avoid the consequences of scarcity. LOL
On a different note, do you have any particular rules for allowing someone to cameo or co-op with you on a review? It's really just a thought at this point, but I have some ideas about the Mana series that I've been meaning to write down and express. I'd imagine the odds are pretty low--not least of which because it probably looks like a shameless plug to drive traffic to my channel (not the one I'm using to write this comment)--but I figured it couldn't hurt to ask.
Not to dash anyone's hopes but with rare exceptions, these days I only collaborate with people I've known and talked with for an extended period of time.
scxcr Okay. Thanks again. :)
IDK why but this game reminds me of an RPG Maker project. Not one in specific, just the general aesthetic of someone who isn't a skilled game designer, and wants to make something _big_ in scope. Hence the softlocking, the heavy balancing issues, the constantly changing aesthetics and ideas, the poorly written characters, the weird faux movie references, the _layering issues..._
...don't ask me how I know all this so intimately.
1:04:07 I played through this game many times, never knew of the colar! But it is buyable later on so no big deal XD
Everyone keeps saying Secret of Mana was awesome, I use to believe that myself when I was a kid but when I grew up I played it again and realized, that storyline was weak, the only thing SOM had going for it was it’s music. Now Evermore was the better game cause it had a solid story of a boy trying to get home.
I LOVED Secret of Evermore (and Mana too). It had an atmosphere like Silent Hill or a horror movie.
Seems weird to compare the two. I get that they look and feel similar but they're just not the same game or the same series ... like you said at the beginning of the video.
german references to movies do not make any sense too. I don't know where you got this information
49:12 what don't like hot girls?
Love this game!!
I do the one and I love the mana sword… and I’m also guy from badass America, make that one good boi, now you tal lye asian boi, rye?
wait, what? does your shirt say Noodz?
A come on, don´t make this game that bad.
It was one of the best games for SNES and one of the best games in its time. (especially for us "western" players)
When did "it's okay" become "it's bad"?
@@scxcr But its far more then okay!
This is ONE game I KEPT CIB....
Tv ads for video games? Uhhhh cant remember every really seeing one out side a game store. Before playstation. And Nintendo 64.
Come on, everybody our age can relate to "...and then he shrunk my head"....
The glitches and flaws rarely occured so they werent that bad
No, the game is good even with them....
I look at it as a TRUE GAME OVER....
NOT THAT I HAVEN'T BEEN THE GUY STUCK YET AGAIN IN THE PYRAMID GETTING THE FIRST EYE....
This game reminds me off mighty Max. The cartoon
And THAT was a great show too👍...
You are of course correct...
The comercial WTF🤨
I loved this game. Maybe blasphemy but I liked it far more than Secret of Mana.
Looking forward to the SD3 video - I have been sour for YEARS waiting for a good official western-release SD3 I can throw money at.
Legend of Mana, too. Those were the series highs for me :D
#TrialsofEvermore
Thank you for this. Just been playing Trials of Mana Remake and I wish... and hope... Sqaure does a remake to this game ... with remastered ost. *crossfingers
You reference Secret of Mana way too much, they might have some similarities but I don't think you can really compare them to each other. They're two different worlds, the atmosphere and character's are different..
Dude, everyone has the right to their opinions but, as you stated early in the video SoE has nothing to do with Secret of Mana. And you obviously love the Mana series a lot so, don't compare the two against each other in a head-to-head.
I love this but hate som....
Secret of mana feels to much anime and japenese like
Mana feels bland compared to EVERMORE....
I new was not part of the SecretMana Series and I was so upset we got Evermore rather than Secret of Mana 3.
So... he doesn't like the game because it's harder then SoM... Sounds about right