Are Pinball Rules Becoming TOO Complicated? - Pinball Philosophy
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- čas přidán 30. 10. 2022
- Ok, here's an interesting discussion I've wanted to do for awhile. What are your thoughts on rulesets and how deep they have become? Do you think you should have to study 20+ pages of instructions in order to fully-enjoy what a pinball machine has to offer? Do you think competitive pinball has evolved from a game of mostly skill, to a game of mostly knowledge and who has more money and resources? Here are some items to discuss debate - let's take it to comments!
And as always, much appreciated if you subscribe and hit like and all that stuff!
PinballHelp.com
We want YOU to weigh in on this... Do you think rulesets are "too deep?" Is competitive pinball evolving from a game of skill to a pay-to-win format? Do you like deep rulesets or do you feel overwhelmed?
It seems like you need to go to pinball college for some of these games. I think a good pinball game provides a challenge between tactics and pure control of shooting ramps, etc... It doesn't need to become chess with metal balls, right?
Thank you for bringing it up. Guess 90% of all newer games have code that is so deep it can only be handled well by 2% of all players. Sometimes I like a complicated code, especially when an owner is telling me all the code details of his new game while playing. Do I save all the details for a later play in a few weeks time? No chance, as it is so much nowadays. Your suggestion that there need to be more callouts could be helpfull. Guess it would be good to have an optional tutorial mode in the newer games with guided callouts to teach the basics and teach you more, when the player is proceding through the game, like in a video game.
At times, it's definitely overwhelming, and I do favor some of the B/W rulesets of the 80's and 90's....But, in a home environment, it is nice to have a pin that you can play 1000's of times and still learn new stuff on
Here's my take - I find that when I've been asked by people about complicated games, mostly the recent Stern and JJP releases, I tend to be able to color-code all the inserts to help me distinguish between the rules. Rush for example, that game can feel a bit overwhelming for a novice player (especially if they don't short plunge!) but once you know what each insert corresponds to and when they light, you're getting a fair bit closer to figuring the game out. This is something I feel Godzilla handles very well too, the basic rules for each city are all you really need to know and the deeper stuff is entirely optional unless you want to get the best scores. As an advanced player, deep rulesets encourage me to keep playing, especially if they're flexible and allow for many different valid strategies. I also feel it's worth noting in the attract mode on newer games, you can actually scroll through the screens and get tutorial videos explaining exactly how certain features work. This was something Data East did back in the day too and I felt it worked quite well there.
Of course that's not to say that deep rules automatically make a game better - especially if the deep rules are backloaded into an otherwise simple game. The Munsters is a prime example of this where the game is quite intuitive, but as soon as I get to Munster Madness I don't know what the heck I'm doing and am not encouraged to look into it because so much of the rest of the game isn't like that. If you're going to have deep rulesets they should be consistently deep throughout.
Agreed 100% - too complicated.
No rules = No fun.
Way too many rules = No fun.
Somewhere there's a happy medium, but I feel currently we're too far to the "Way too many rules" side.
There's a reason why Keith Elwin's games are so popular and complex in its rules, because it's made for serious or professional players like him and strategies for games like this is multiplying and maximising points as much as possible. In competitions and tournaments, that means A LOT for players. Of course the other side to modern pinball games is progression towards the wizard modes, seeing how many modes you can play on a game and how far you can go. I guarantee most players, if they're good enough, they could make it to the main or mini Wizard modes often, but the few skillful players will be good enough to reach the end of the game and the super wizard mode like in current Stern games.
What I like to do is when I'm playing a pinball on location, I make personal goals that I want to get. In Guardians Of The Galaxy for instance, I want to get Cherrybomb Multiball which I've done a few times and it felt satisfying when I did it. In Star Trek, I want to get Kobayashi Maru, and eventually I got it and felt proud. Getting the Casino Run in Jackbot was always fun to get, now if I could make 1 billion from it. It's making goals like these that keep me going and playing pinball in general, just reaching them and then seeing how further I can get is what encourages me to get better at pinball and drives me to hopefully getting that wizard mode.
Currently in school for game design + development, and this kind of stuff is FASCINATING to me! Though I haven't played almost any pinball, I'd agree that the ruleset of games (pinball or otherwise) can continue to become more complex, but the gameplay and visual/audio feedback need to be able to convey those rules to a new player clearly for the game to really benefit from that added complexity.
Great video, you've definitely earned a sub!
I would agree, its now more about how well you can learn the rules rather than how long can you keep the ball in play. You can't really learn the rules just from playing over and over, to score big you need to memorize which targets and combos to shoot for when and how often. I'd be just as happy with fewer rules. For me it about the sounds, the thrill of hitting a tough shot and to complete a series of simple goals.
I enjoy Godzilla code, its long but fun. Yeah, I think Stern is missing out on apron LCD to guide player and Callouts help alot too. My favorite codes Pirates of Caribbean Jersey Jack, Godzilla stern, Deadpool, Avengers infinity and Star trek Stern pins.
Competitive pinball in terms of WPPR points is very obviously meaningfully pay-to-win because people who can afford to travel to bigger tournaments have the opportunity to earn far more points than people who don't. There's also the question of owning machines, or if one does not own machines, being able to afford coin drop.
I have the 10 000 hrs in on flipper skills, but the rules are why I have moved back from playing competitive pinball. I had to take a step back and look at how much time I was spending reading rules PDFs online to learn and how much that transferred to me doing better and what was the cost of that. I took a big look at what I was doing, and realized that pinball for me is a distraction, welcome most of the time, but when the rulesets overtake my brain, I spend more and more chunks of time studying them, and trying to gather some competitve edge, for what? For whopper points, or whatever, status, etc....what does that mean in the big picture? I realized I need to spend more time on my other hobby songwriting, which has a different reward set for me psychologically. Pinball for me needs to be more recreation than competition, because I get pulled in by the competition, then I want to win, then I want an edge, then I'm down a rabbit hole, then I may not perform well in a competition....and that cycle doesn't seem to help my overall psychology.
That's an interesting take, and I identify with what you're saying as it applies to practically every single thing I could possibly choose to do. Everything is meaningless ultimately. If you're enjoying what you're doing, it's hard to say it's a waste of time unless you arbitrarily value something else more. But at the end of the day, we can't escape the arbitrariness of any given thing we happen to value. And then we get into the weeds of free will. Best to stop here.
100% too complicated and convoluted now! I am a good player! I am in a local league and play in tournaments. Do you know why I am only a top 10 player and consistently miss out on the podium? I do not study! The winners know the super secret skill shots, every mode and objective, how to stack modes, several different multiballs, add a ball, multipiers and all of that! I learned as much as I could about Jurrasic Park and then they updated the code and I was out to lunch again. I know my 90's DMD pins and I am fine with knowing that.
I know I am in the minority on this - I hear people complaining about 'weak code' and 'shallow rule sets'.
I just re-read my OWN comment and thought "old man shouts at cloud"... LOL
Yes. My opinion is that a true pinball machine can never be "beat". It's all about the score. I dropped out of the Arcade and Home video world when the manual for the games I bought and played started coming with 50 page manuals. The old ATARI saying “simple to learn, difficult to master.” should be the guiding thought for designers. Make the playfield more interesting than the programming. It's a pinball machine, not SIM City 3000 unlimited, with it's 224 page manual.
I think it's good to have both. I like the depth of Godzilla and then I like to go and play something like Elvira Party Monsters, where there are very few objectives. Having someone sell a low-cost modern pinball machine with simple rules would be enticing, for sure.
I would love to see a clever slow motion video that shows all the rules. I think the issue is not the complexity, but the lack of good visual tutorials
This is part of the reason we put together the Quick Rules on TWIP: www.thisweekinpinball.com/pinball-u-category/quick-rules/
I dig the quick rules! That makes sense, but obviously there is still the issue of a lot more happening in the game than most people know.
In the case of Godzilla for example, the bridge modes are qualified by switch hits and advanced by hitting the bridge, so it's important to hit the bridge target as soon as it lights up in order to advance in that mode. Knowing these little details can give you a multi-ball mode much more quickly.
@@PinballHelp You asked if they're getting too complicated to "fully enjoy" a pinball machine, not if they're getting too complicated for you to get a specific Multiball in as few shots as possible.
Biggest problem for me is the price of new machines.
indeed, renting a machine or owning a virtual machine is the only way if you are one a budget
I love that tables these days have deep rule sets. As a beginner you can still step up to a game and understand what to shoot and go for,, you just wont have a strategy. Deep rules keep you coming back for more and honestly turn a fun shooting game into something truly special.
Completely agree.
You are absolutely correct. Old games up to mid 80 they were straight forward.
Answer: YES. I own AIQ, and love it as a home pin, but I couldn't even begin to explain the rules to a newcomer. The solution is simple to me: 2 rules sets. A very straightforward ruleset by default, and the 'elite' ruleset enabled by holding the action button and start at the same time.
We were playing on a Godzilla Premium at a friend's house the other day and I had a really great multiball - in terms of skill at least. Kept the balls in play for a really long time. Meanwhile, the other guys were trying to tell me what to hit. I didn't properly set up the multiball in the first place but it didn't really matter that much. After the final drain, I had fun skillfully playing that multiball but finished it off with a relatively poor score. So yes, for better or worse, pinball became more brain work than it used to be. This arguably makes sense because at a high level play, you need to get an edge over your competition, and this is also done by knowing the respective ruleset better than others. Your suggestions (call-outs, etc.) would still come in handy.
I also like your thoughts on pay-to-win, and I mostly agree. The good thing? It's all the more satisfying when you beat someone at a tournament you know owns a dozen or more tables when you are just trying to wing it and play your best game without trying too hard.
15:00 that apron lcd idea is used on a user upgraded Fathom, where they did inserted LEDs as replacements of the lamps pretty recently,
i also think that the rulesets are getting deeper, since theres more machines directed to the comsumer market (and "specialty arcades/collections") , and less to pub going people, i remember the days when you could walk into a pub and you could find almost a pin in everyone
Quick mini essay-
I think that pinball DOES require studying to do well in competition, and as a newer player it was a LOT to take in, and some newer (lets say 2010-present day) games I don't really know. Godzilla for example has a semi deep ruleset but if you know the basics (how to start a mode, how to start your multiballs, how to light allies) and have good skill and strategy to string them together, it really comes down to how good you are playing vs your opponent. With godzilla specifically talking about annihilation bonuses there is the information out there on how to maximize that scoring and people know how much % of a mode score they will get when they claim that bonus. That extreme high risk strategy of going for annihilation bonuses (like KED) should be out of the question for strategy learning, and include mini wizards/ wizard modes in there too.
I know a lot of players out there that are top 500s and have never even owned a pinball machine. Those people can play ball too, but at the highest level, its likely helpful to own one so you can practice everyday.
True, I hate studying. I hate even reading the black and white text with no pictures "Shoot the megaplier shot" -> maybe just print a photo of the thing you are talking about. I think the reason for the complexity is that games are so expensive now that people want long-term home use where the game evolves a bit the more you play. I do thing Stern needs to release how the code works on every game. All the small details. I've played Godzilla maybe 30-50 games and I didn't know about the tank thing you mentioned.
"...just print a photo of the thing you are talking about..." ==> YES !!!! 100% YES!! (Also: WHERE is that thing on the playfield? Don't make me play "Spot Waldo" for half an hour!)
Pinball really has 2 ways to play. Points and Wizard modes. Personally, I love chasing Wizard modes. The first time I beat The Shadow, my head exploded, It was one of my funnest moment in pinball. When talking with some competitive players, they asked what my score was, who cares, I just beat a game. As my pinball adventure continues, I am defining what I like in a game, and clear and obtainable rules that allow me to progress without a PHD in code are what I know gravitate too. And the beauty in that is I have 3 decades worth of games to really learn.
I do want to add one correction to the video... I suggested things like extra ball objectives are not shown to the player, but in many cases they are... like if you destroy a saucer, it may say "2 more for extra ball" but one problem is, that's on screen - not a call-out. And unless you happened to be looking at the screen during that 1/2 second interval when the message was displayed, you would have no idea. These things can be improved with audio call-outs, and a better status display. I absolutely love Godzilla but I think it needs work with its status display - the complexity of these games are such now that even with a status display, you're scrolling through dozens of screens trying to find where your progress is in certain areas.... this game is a bit weak in the all-in-one status display - it could be improved. I think as good as this game is, there are other Stern games with better all-in-one displays.
I think the big challenge for designers in the future is... if you want to continue to make the games complicated and deep, an equal amount of thought and planning needs to be done in the area of how you can make the player aware of his progress. It can't just be on screen 11 or 32 that he finds out how far away he is from a mini-wizard mode or an extra ball.
I also recognize there are more subtle ways to indicate things to the player, like the color of an insert, whether it's on solid or blinking... and this is cool but it's not always obvious to the player what that means. Hopefully we can see more progress in this situation. What do YOU think?
i think the RUSH stream on jack danger's channel is a good example of devs making it easier to know what's going on, go check it out if you like, i believe its the newest video from his channel
Absolutely! The game should talk to you as you play, and (as you pointed out in the video) not just say "Shoot the scoop!". It should say "Shoot the scoop 3 more times for an extra ball" (or whatever). Having to constantly look at the backboard, or having to trap the ball then scroll thru a hundred different status displays is annoying, and takes away from the flow of the game, and therefore the joy of playing the game. The intelligence of the machines should be such that it can tell what the player's skill level is, and change the call-outs accordingly. Many modern software programs do this, and will make helpful suggestions for how to better use the program, so why isn't pinball doing the same thing??
I designed some layouts already for Virtual Pinball Workshop, like Blood Machines and other stuff still in work.
Since I joined them I've been working on my own table with a very different point of view on rules and progression in a game. I'm a big fan of last few games that Bally/Williams made, it's for me the gold standard, and my vision is to make the dream pinball for back then. Like if Williams had today's tech but still the same designers and ideas.
And thats how my table is designed.
Rules and the inserts are made together, it's not 2 different things, they have to be designed as one. Each shot has indicators, validation lights, all the informations are on the playfield and guides the player into possibilities instead of just telling him where to shot to complete a mode.
My table also has an original theme, for the simple reason that the story is told through the game. The player isn't going through scenes of a movie or music tracks, he is progressing a story the way he wants to. It's not the best story, nor the best assets, but it let's the designers do anything with it.
I know that this is far from what is possible for Stern now, and I had hopes with RAZA that was really close to my vision, but it looks like if I want original themes, I have to make it myself (and for virtual pinballs since thats way simpler to release)
I've always wondered how the online virtual pinball design translated to a real world game. Let us know how that goes.
Second screen by flipper would be the best thing ever
personally i like the older games like high speed and firepower. the shots are difficult, it's a ball draining SOB but the rules can be learned in a few minutes
I just think it evolution of the game. Everything changes sometimes for the good sometime for the bad and which is just someone view point. In regards to competition at any level (or in any "sport"), if you have money it's an easier road to success. However, if you're s student of the game and have some talent I believe you can still do well. Yes, in this day and age a game be made to be easy or hard or anyplace in between with a simple switch or setting and yes videos can do a better job with better voice commands. But whatever your thoughts are on this subject it great that we can have this debate, because pinball is great and we almost lost it. My final thought is that the only way to have a level playing field in a competition is to have configurable code that can be easily change or updated for compaction purposes. Just think about it if the code is different every time it's down to skill and some luck, money does not matter nor does knowing the game.
My perspective is not on competition play, where I feel the top players will anyway quickly figure out a go-to strategy or two without knowing the table intricately. Competition setup tables seldom allow for long and intricate games.
I'm a huge fan of layered i.e. complicated rules tables as they offer your variety and longevity. A table such as Mousing Around is great, but after two days of playing, you have done all there is to do on it. A table such Guardians of the Galaxy seems much more complicated, but in effect a lot of what you do happens automatically, and you just move through the missions and remember every now and then to use the Hydron enforcer. Lord of the Rings is similar in that there is a lot to do, but the progress is still linear in a way. Those are still great tables with longevity, and I love to play them, but you soon develop a familiarity with them (which is not necessarily a bad thing). Lord of the Rings, especially, will take you years of play before you can finally reach the final wizard mode. I don't have much experience with the other Keith Elvin tables, but Iron Maiden is firmly my favourite table of all pinball tables I've played so far (and I'm not even a Maiden fan ;-) ). It presents a straight-forward challenge in completing the missions and multiballs (with super jackpots to progress), like e.g. Guardians of the Galaxy, but then there is so much more to it e.g. soul shards, tomb treasures and power jackpots etc. that you discover in layers and over time. The way I play the table now, and what I focus on, compared to when I first started, is completely different. I constantly try different approaches and it always stays fresh to me even after 100's of plays. I really look forward to playing Keith's other tables one day.
One important "tool" you didn't mention for learning the rules, layout and flow is Virtual Pinball. Recently (over the two years especially), the quality and realism of what is being produced has improved tremendously. Visual Pinball X now has great recreations of tables such as Lord of the Rings, Iron Maiden Legacy of the Beast, Guardians of the Galaxy, Game of Thrones and many more, where you can get intimately familiar with how those tables play and flow, what strategies to employ and how to score well. I live in South Africa and have limited access to real tables. I was amazed how my skills acquired through Visual Pinball X (on a desktop and playing with an Xbox controller non the less ;-) ) directly translated over to real pinball when I last had an opportunity.
Old games were designed to munch quarters. The new games are going to sit in someone's house and get played hundreds of times by a single player. They need deep rules when we pay as much as we do or they wouldn't last in a home collection. Games also have plenty of things for the novice player as well but also have the deeper rules for the more advanced players. Games with shallow rules don't sell well either (Munsters)
This is an old problem. Back in 2014 while being shown pinball tips on whirlwind pinball at California extreme by an older pro player. His commented it takes the fun & skill out of the game. Deep play ok when you are at home. Tournament rules need to change if knowledge rules makes it harder for non-owers to play.
I just like the Bally Williams tables. They’re much easier to play and go for objectives.
It says right on the screen for jets and saucer how many more for an extra ball.
If you really factor in the % of total pinball players (any/all who like playing), the number who play it w the goal to compete at a high level has GOTSTA be very small.
With that, the sweet spot for _rules_ for the largest majority of us is games like Scared Stiff, AFM, and … Orbiter 1 (j/k). THOSE games are robust while still havin a visual roadmap to rules, modes, y objectives (like Mike kinda mentioned).
I’ve owned a Simpsons Pinball Party for awhile now & STILL have ZERO CLUE what’s happening on that table. 😅🤷♂️
Conversely, my Jurassic Park Premium literally just arrived (today)-my first Spike system ever. Though I had no clue of the modes/ruleset, I’ve NEVER had MORE FUN flippin a game in my five crusty, rusty, bebarnacled decades! I was THIS 🤏 CLOSE to canceling a long-awaited DOC appointment, just soes I could keep PLAYIN that sumbitch.
Conclusion? Don’t make pins where COMPETITION/tourneys are wagging the design dog. I think Venom is one gorgeous-looking color/art blast, but I wouldn’t put a nickel in it. 🤷♂️✌️
Not an owner, just a player: I don't care if the rules are complex, but I DO need to know what the game
strategies are so I get Grand Champion.
Thank-you for pointing out what has been a complaint of mine for the past couple of decades. If you're going to make a game like Godzilla super-deep, then level the playing field (so to speak) by clearly explaining to players (during the game) what they *could* do to improve their score. There's no point in having a tiny 3" by 5" card on the apron with a ridiculously simplified set of instructions written in tiny unreadable font when in fact, the "real" ruleset is 37 pages long and must be studied like a biology textbook. Also, make it super-clear what is what on the playfield! What the hell is a "jet" or a "tank", and where are they located on the playfield?? When I look at the playfield of Godzilla, I see a mess of over-crowded lights and markings that detract from the beauty of the artwork, and detract from what pinball skill is really all about: the ability to hit shots.
I think I would like to know what modern pins everyone seems to think have the perfect amount of complexity. Plus would it be feasible for certain modern pins to also have a second more simplified down ruleset that may bore Elwin to death but allow for more skilled pinball players to have a balanced chance?
I agree. I do think it's possible to create a game that can appeal to both those who like complex rules as well as those who want more simplicity.
Guardians come to mind. Complex modes and different shots but it's pretty easy to track and time out.
It’s as deep as you think it should be. If you’re competitive and you read and study and learn then good on you. If you don’t want to do that and just want to enjoy the game, go for it. It seems like you’re complaining because you want a high score but don’t want to read. If you don’t want to read… then don’t. But don’t expect o be a master/pro at the game.
Deep rulesets are fine but the game itself needs to clearly present the rules and state of the game to you without having to read a manual. And with modern screens, audio, and software, one could argue maybe you shouldn't even need to read the rule card in the apron.
Also, I'm curious if it would add or detract from a game if they added a feature for beginner players you could start the game in a "campaign" mode which took you through the rules more linearly, where maybe it's less about points and maybe more about objectives. And then a tournament/adventure mode where the ruleset is completely unlocked for implementing strategies to maximize points as the games are currently. However, I do think there's value in surprises and discovering things as well so it's hard to say. But certainly I don't want to be reading a manual.
I dont think relying on just raw skill alone is good in a competitive setting, because being more prepared than the next guy is part of it.
It’s a lost skill.. locksmiths, like myself, I pick the locks .. which really to me ruins the originality of the machine… I’ve talked to a few owners they would rather drill the locks.. which is simply a shame… locks are about 4 bucks..to replace… I want to encourage people not to drill.. but what do I know…
Yes. If you can not list the entire Rule Set on a 3x5 card on the apron of the game it is way too much. The games from the mid 70's to the the mid 90's seem to be about the best. You do not need a PHD to play and for 25 cents you should have a fun 3 to 5 minutes.
My other issues with games is in a way, they have become too easy to play. On the older games they will eat up a ball all the time. not matter what you skill level it will take that ball away from you. I consider this an equalizer, You can be the best player in the world and it will still drain the same way as the 8 year old who has never played before. I played a few new games and I'm into it for 15 minutes sometimes up to 20 and I just get bored with the game. Games have become too easy, the machine is set that the ball is harder to loose (What ever give back mode it has etc.). In a way this sounds like a good thing, it is not. I just do not find the enjoyment of standing around playing for 15 minutes on the same game.
personally, i do not enjoy putting in a dollar and then losing each ball after only a minute or two of play. It is not at all fulfilling to me.
@@BootsORiley You need to get a girl friend if you want something fulfilling
Short answer. No. If anything, I welcome it. Take Avengers for example. The rules on the game are insanely deep, while being challenging. Zilla is one of the best games of all time and the rule set is nearly flawless. 2112 on Rush is easily one of the most mind boggling and challenging Wizard modes ever, yet still fun. Games have evolved properly to modern times, as they should. We can thank Steve Ritchie and Pat Lawlor for implementing the first wizard modes ever in Black Knight 2000, and then Addams Family a few years later. It just progressively grew from there.
excellent post here
@@BootsORiley City boys’ out of his mind again. Oh yea. Oh yea.
Modern games are very good at communicating what the player needs to do. There is not a single ruleset in the modern era (eg avengers, rush, b66, godzilla) that is too hard to learn. The basic multiballs etc are just as easy to start as older dmd games and the deeper rules are fine if the player simply takes a bit of time to work them out. Simple modern games like munsters, ironman etc are ok for a quick quick bash but get very tedious after a while.
Disagree on AIQ which I own. I understand the rules (well enough at least), but it took a month to get to that point. Reliably starting a multiball (on AIQ by hitting the THOR captive ball multiple times) hardly qualifies as understanding the ruleset.
I think competitive play is simply a non factor. These machines aren’t meant to be for elite competitive play. As you said, these games need depth so owners actually want to have them in their homes long-term. There will always be the more serious players who want to compete on any iteration of machine that comes out. It's simply going to be a matter of what you're willing to do to be competitive. Perhaps the old school folks who are used to more straightforward rule sets simply won't enjoy the nature of competitive play these days, and that's fine. Things change.
Yes
Totally agree, I just traded GZ for Mando. GZ was so damn complex. Mando, everything you need to do to win the game is layed out right there on the PF. Not saying Mando is better, saying we all have levels we are at individually. GZ made me feel like a crappy player, and mando makes me feel like i have a chance of getting to wizard mode.
That's interesting, because Mando feels so cramped to me. All of the shots have to be "made" halfway down the playfield. Godzilla is the exact opposite, the shots are mostly far away.
@@user82938 my comment was more about game code design not PF design.
@@petetomaszek4273 I can't get very far in the game because I can't hit those closer shots as well :)
@@user82938 this is why stern pumping out titles is awesome. We all benefit. Maybe some day I will learn the code on GZ and you will figure Mando shots, this is why I love the hobby, we all enjoy so many different aspects.
Cheers
Becoming too complicated? They past that Red Line a long time ago.
Games shouldn't Too complicated .They CAN....but if they do ,They lose the Fun Factor.
I got into pb late .But one of the Most Intuitive Games I played was TANK ,the GameProm video game.
Easy to Follow what's going on with Light indicators
The real question is, if you can't understand every aspect of a pinball ruleset, does that matter?
Do you really need to understand the nuance of Godzilla to enjoy it? What's the difference if you're just locking 3 balls for Godzilla MB because you dunno whatever else is going on, and locking 3 balls for MB in an old game because it's not worth doing anything else, or because there's nothing else to do at all?
Is it worth removing a level of depth that some players love because more players feel like they're missing out?
Case in point, *most* people who put a coin in a pinball machine find *any* rules too complicated, is it time to remove all rulesets and just go back to basic x target=x points rules? Well, the feeling you have for that idea is the feeling I and plenty other people have for going back to 80s and 90s style rules.
To *understand* godzilla you can actually just boil it down to:
Each city has a battle, tesla, tanks, and bridge.
Shoot ramps to lite battle, spinner for tesla, tanks for tanks, and hit switches to lite bridge.
Do the battle and you can change cities at the scoop, the others will give you more points when you change cities (but don't drain!)
You can also shoot the saucer, mechagodzilla, or the building a bunch of times for more MBs.
Everything else is genuinely tertiary, this is main "gameplay loop" of Godzilla.
So, that begs the question, is this about "fully enjoying" a game or about maximizing score? Because it sounds more like about maximizing score.
Stern's biggest market now is the home owner, and it's very easy to understand that if you're going to be racking up hundreds of games on one machine, complicated rules add another layer of replayability, at least, it does for those people who don't immediately give up on experimentation and iteratively learning, and go memorize a PDF instead.
I agree. And I think every player has their own "attention to detail" level.
I think the challenge for pinball designers, and it may not always even be possible, but to produce a game that appeals to different skill levels of players as well as those who crave more detail, or can't be bothered to learn things. There are some games that accomplish that. I think Godzilla may be one of them.
“Resources” is a PDF online… requires no money.
Pinball as a hobbie is so closed off to an outsider looking in I have no idea why anyone would ever want to touch a pinball machine it's basically like jumping into the middle of deep geometry but you're not really sure how to spell math yet
I think a pinball machine should be intuitiv to play. There should be also a settings list shown at the startup. I don't like this shift from a skill game to a brain game. And anyway I don't like stern and theres business philosophy.
I admit to being an old dinosaur - (and judging by most of the comments here, I certainly am), but I can't bear any pinball made after the mid-80's for this very reason. I want to be able to walk up and have fun, not study the damn rules for a month. Almost like they're made for nerds these days!
If I was better at pinball I would say no, but I suck so I am going to say yes.
Shoot what is flashing-pinball 101
Yes.
Are Pinball Rules Becoming TOO Complicated?
Answer: NO!!!!!
Nah
Yes