5 Times Bach was Chopin's Master (ft. Martín García García)
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- čas přidán 29. 06. 2024
- 0:00 Intro
0:11 #1 C major
1:07 #2 Figuration and modulation
2:22 #3 Imitation and counterpoint
3:10 #4 Cross motifs
4:15 #5 G major
5:30 Chopin and His Master
5:47 Thank you to Fazioli
2021 Chopin Competition 3rd-prize winner Martín García García joins Ben Laude to show you how Bach keeps appearing in Chopin's music.
Filmed at the Cremona Musica's "Piano Experience" in Cremona, Italy - September 2022.
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Dear subscribers, I spent a week in Italy and had the pleasure of meeting Martín and hearing him perform at the Cremona Musica instrument exhibition on an incredible Fazioli. I couldn't resist filming something with him! (Yunchan fans: don't fear, the Liszt sequel is near. My trip just threw off my editing progress a bit. And... you want it to be really good, right? Your patience will pay off!)
Last week my parents asked me:" should we go to cremona this sunday for the music fair?" And I was like:" nah we've already been there 2 times there nothing interesting, I gotta stay home and practice my Beethoven's 3rd"
Now I'm literally biting my hands off.
Thanks a lot, wonderfull interview, could you PLEASE post more material like this with Martin Garcia Garcia? Thanks again 🙂😘❤️
Amazing video from an experienced pianist to talk about this. That was a nice surprise to me. Thanks.
"If you really want to play Chopin well, practice your Bach" very true! Thank you for the video.
Chopin used to play Bach to warm up for his own recitals! He was well versed in Bach’s works.
Liszt, Chopin played Bach daily and even Sting plays Bach daily and he just sold his music catalog for $500,000,000.00 US.
Actually Chopin knew only a tiny part of Bach's opus and not even the most important one. He was far from being well versed.
SO did Pablo Casals
5:29 the smile of a joyful child. You can clearly tell he adores this.
Wonderful stuff!
the way he could switch from bach to chopin is so impressive
He is an incredible young pianist and, as spanish myself, I'm so proud of his success! ❤❤❤❤❤
Same!😍
Bach was the master directly or indirectly of almost any musicians that existed after him to nowadays. You can still see his influence in modern works and songs
I mean for like a century after his death he was forgotten and even though music nerds still did know about him most composers after him didn't look back at him but forward
Sometimes, we over deify these composers. There’s plenty of evidence to show that a lot of Bach’s composition ideas were common practice to the musicians of that time. Bach was simply much more nerdy than some of the other composers.
@@_Athanos Yeah, there's a reason for that.
Up until that time, the focus had been on technical excellence in the music itself, particularly in terms of contrapuntal technique. After the publication of BWV1080, however, everyone took one look at that and collectively went, "Ok, so now that we have the definitive word on THAT, we're going to have to come up with some other way to set our music apart," and so they started doing things like using the music to evoke particular emotions (the entire Romantic era was all about this), or to tell a story (not just via lyrics, like opera, but with the music itself, e.g., in the Classical era you start to see orchestral symphonies with no lyrics at all that are written about a topic, like "a day in the countryside" or whatnot), and so on and so forth. You can trace a direct line from this paradigm shift to modern music, and eventually we end up with Baby Shark.
I do like Chopin though. When I'm in the right mood for it.
@@pjbpiano Oh, certainly. Bach's biggest fans, who know his music best, will freely admit that he routinely copied musical themes from other composers. It was standard practice at the time. (Copyright hadn't really been invented yet.)
Dear Martin, I learned a lot watching your joyous revelation regarding Bach's influence upon Chopin. Your effortless pianism was very persuasive. However, Chopin had a great genius himself in the Romantic era that used the rudiments of Bach to launch a deeply personal part of the listener unknown, and not requested by listeners in Bach's era.
A brilliant essay, maestro Martin,. My humble gratitude.
if you really like classical piano, especially as a player, this is one of the essential channels to watch
He’s so adorable. Love his accent and of course his talent. He’s so easy to fall in-love with. 😭❤️
Exactly 😃😃😃
The 1829 Bach revival rolled like Tsunami across the world of music and it hit Chopin in the best way possible.
Bach is a never ending fountain of chords and melodies turned into new pieces up and until now. So much inspiration is there for tonal music, classic, romantic, and also for Jazz. I discovered that learning Bach on the piano with utmost attention gives such a strong basis for all else, technically and musically. Great to see Martin again, I followed him on the last big Chopin competition. A great pianist and musician.
Also die Rock music. The Beatles digested a lot of Bach
True. Bach was also a major inspiration for the Beatles.
This guy is awesome. Could listen to him play all day.
I really love this man, such a positive energy radiating from him:))
The childlike delight radiating from Martin is just gorgeous. Thanks for sharing with us all!
Martin , thank you for yesterday's wonderful concert at Luslawice Penderecki Center. And also thank you so much for taking pictures with me , I will treasure it for the rest of my life.
21 października Białystok ? 😀😀
Hey, it's nerd o'clock. Thank you Martin,Ben and Fazioli
I went to a concert of Martín last month in Valldemossa, he is incredible!
I was in the same concert, agreed!
Well done Martin and Tonebase, this video is extremely good and very infromative. Bach is the master of keyboard of all times so all of these is not a surprise.
I read in a biography about chopin. Someone asked him about his warm up and he answered that the best warmup is to play bach.
Wich Biography???
Martin is such a fun personality!
Nice, tell us about Ligeti `s Etudes, coming from Chopin... or Colon Nancarrow`s counterpoints coming from Bach... ;)
that would be nice too and oriented to the future of music!
Felicitaciones
I remember how my piano teacher always says that there is a lot of Bach in Chopin, but I never really noticed those; she told my how there was actually lots of hidden polyphony in some of Chopin's works just like Bach. Thanks for the video!😁
Chopin and His Master. What a creative album idea!
My 2 favorite composers and a wonderful new pianistic discovery. Thank you Martín!
You guys make the BEST videos! Thank you for all the content you create.
Thanks Ben for another gem of a video!
Love the last comparison 😉☺️ Chopin was indeed a huge js bach fan and practiced Bach before recitals :)
Yes Bach is THE master of all. Every chord progression except modern tri tone substitutions was used by Bach. Most importantly, Bach’s voice leading practices still work today. To me, Bach and Charlie parker are the two best improvisers of all time. Nice playing by the way!!!
A bit of an exaggeration there... not "all" chord progressions by a long shot
@@JohnSmith-oe5kx Well, I’m coming from the context of secondary dominants, Neapolitan 6th chords, and Bach’s voice leading which in essence spell out what all chord progression are. But Tritone substitutions might not be something he used but maybe as passing tones thus temporarily creating them. Its been too long since I’ve had a theory book in front of me. Having a minor IV chord while in a major key is maybe something he did, too? I dunno but he sure has 3-2-5-1 progressions in his music and from that you’ve got the ground work for just about everything else ever written.
@@onethousandtwonortheast8848 Music is considerably more diverse than that.
@@JohnSmith-oe5kxdoesn’t seem to me you are very familiar with Bach music specially his more experimental pieces.
@@carlosandres7006 I am quite familiar with Bach. Which pieces are you talking about?
Genial!!!! Congratulaciones! 🎉❤
fantastic video! you gotta love Martin.
This was such a fun video from a master pianist.
Had a teacher throw me into Bach 3pt fugue before I could play a 2pt invention. He said it would make the invention easier to play after learning the fugue. It didn't happen that way. That was 35 years ago. But I will continue to struggle with Bach to help with Chopin. The similarities are so cool when you played them.
Brilliant thank you! And wonderful artistry!
Whoa, so insightful!
Thank you! Delightful and informative.
Disfrutando las buena clase mientras otro discuten entre ellos haber quien tkeen la razón y se pelean.; cuando en realidad hay solo un objetivo y es llevar la música clásica al nivel del conocimiento universal, así como lo hizo Martin Garcia en estos tiempos
Great energy, wish you all the best Garcia.
Wow a great clip. What similarities indeed
Interessant. 🙂
Bach is the master of every musician that existed after him and before him. Never forget that.
Great subject for a lecture-recital!
Qué grande, Martín! Qué grande!
Please, do more of these for other composers. I'd love to just see a video of examples like this of harmonies/progressions taken from Bach from all classical giants (Tchaikovsky, Beethoven, etc.)
Bravo
Pure genius
Muy interesante Maestro!
Back in the 70s, two brazilian pianists (Arthur Moreira Lima and João Carlos Martins) used to give this two pianos recital playing (interleaved) the 24 Chopin Preludes and 24 preludes (only) from the WTC1. You can find on youtube.
The last prelude in G major also reminds me of Chopin's Andante Spinato!
One day I will afford that piano, love the tone color
Good advice
excellent, impressive pianist
What a pleasant guy!
The first Chopin's étude and the Bach's prelude in C it's a topic well covered for a long time now so I agree. The rest of them seems like a forced need to find similarities between the two composers. Yes, Chopin was a great admirer of Bach's music, this is well known but that doesn't mean that these motifs were consciously borrowed and elaborated by Chopin. It's impossible not to find similarities comparing any composer even those that are the most distant in style. Classic examples are cadences, scales, arpeggios, modulations etc things that are shared among all the composers.
Don't take this seriously as a critique, I'm sure even Martin here would not swear that he's absolutely sure about these influences.
I didn’t infer that Chopin consciously borrowed these motifs. Rather, Chopin digested so much of Bach that he unconsciously adopted Bach qualities in his music. The video was exaggerating to make a point.
@@itzelguerra2655 Every composer's style is determined by the qualities of what has already been done in some extent. It's rare to make something out of parthenogenesis. No composer is an exception (even the most bold like Debussy who defied almost every rule of the past). If Chopin is inspired by Bach what can we say about for example Schumann's output which is full of contrapuntal qualities, even more than Chopin. Anyway, my intention was benevolent, I can understand that it is an exaggeration. I just believe that there are cases that are more characteristic for example the similarities between Chopin's E minor concerto and Hummel's A minor, or Rossini's La danza tarantella Napolitana and Chopin's tarantella.
Simple motifs like these on the video are just not enough (at least for me) to support the idea of "I am borrowing from the work of somebody else "because are common almost everywhere in the repertoire. Anyway, no bad intention, I am saying all these in a friendly tone, just my opinion. I admire the output of this channel and watched Martin's performance when Chopin's competition had been conducted.
Exactly what I was thinking too, it's easy to find similarities when you make them similarities. Especially when it's such simple things, like the "Bach" motif they mentioned- it's so inconsequential, and was absolutely done before even Bach did it.
I appreciate this discussion! And I mostly agree - some of these were a stretch and we were having some fun :). Also, it turns out the BACH name highlighted in the annotation wasn't even the right intervals... :[]
As George inferred, this isn't meant as a scholarly exercise in tracing examples of influence across generation (conscious or unconscious). It's more a way of saying, look, we know that Bach was the composer Chopin studied more closely than anyone else (the WTC in particular - his "constant companion"). And with that in mind, it's not unreasonable to point to moments in Chopin where the form and figuration of his keyboard writing are strikingly similar to moments in Bach as a way of illustrating Chopin's musical debt to Bach.
Yes Bach influenced just about every canonical composer after him, directly or indirectly, and also tonal music has enough stock material that similarities regularly occur across repertoires that have no significance. But I would wager that Bach's influence on Chopin was proportionally greater than that of other composers, that it seeped into his veins a bit more than it did for Schumann or even Brahms, and that when he sat at the piano and composed the Op 50/3 Mazurka, for example, even if he wasn't thinking directly of BWV 849, at least we can see the marks of a composer who knew the WTC by heart.
@@tonebasePiano Thank you for the answer!
I think we don't disagree at all. I guess the whole argument of the discussion was about how "stock" was the material that was demonstrated in the video and in case of motifs it's really an endless topic.
The essential point is that Chopin was a great admirer of Bach's music and probably inspired the aesthetic approach regarding his own compositions, I can't really argue if he had more effect on him than Schumann, Brahms or even Mendelssohn, that's an another great topic.
Lastly, I enjoyed this conversation and the video, and of course I can see the fun aspect of it :)
Keep up the good work!
Many decades ago - Raymond Lewenthal connected that Bach Prelude to the Op. 10 no. 4 too! There's a recording of him encoring the Bach and then BAM - surprise, going right into the Chopin. It's both amusing and really cool at the same time.
#5 also reminds me of the Andante Spianato
Crazy!
I'm surprised he didn't mention Chopin's op 25 n. 12 and Bach's 2nd prelude in c minor. It was nice to discover the other quotes :)
We considered it!
Fun and beneficial to watch, thanks. It's not exactly okey to call Bach as Chopin's master because Bach was and still is the master of all composers'. The comparison made in this video could be found nearly for every single composer after Bach. But still, the point is understood. By the way, great playing! Such a fine pianist!
No 4 blew my mind I didn’t know but it’s so obvious now!😀
"Bach" is a German word that means "little river". But his inspiration was a huge river.
He will be loved all over the world 🌞
Ese pianista asturiano!!🎹👌🎶❤️
A biography of Chopin that I read some 40 years ago mentioned that Chopin would play Bach every day and he advised everybody to do that. As study, étude.
A couple decades later, I saw this documentary on Nikita Magaloff that someone had uploaded to CZcams. At that moment after 2000, it was already old content in black and white. The documentary had some master class moments woven into the story, that had been shot in Magaloff's house at the Geneva Lake. One of the students played a Chopin piece, and missed none of the notes Chopin had written. It was actually good. When she finished, Magaloff asked her to go to a certain bar in the sheet music and play these notes again, but now as it they were a fugue. Which she did and it completely made sense - to turn it around, not playing it like that made much less sense, musically.
A couple years later, I watched the video again and bits an pieces had been cut out of the video, probably for copyright purposes and YT algorithms, but I was able to search the web to see what had become of the student in the video. She had become professor in a conservatory in France. The video is no longer on-line, I believe.
Chopin and J.S. Bach go very deep and a performer must be alert to discover such bars as Magaloff pointed to.
The second example of Chopin actually reminded me of f# minor from Book 1 of the WTC, granted I don't think that the tempos are comparable.
How did you guys miss ocean and wtc 2 is what I’m wondering 😂
Martin Garcia Garcia Garcia!
Me has convencido 😉
Yo soñaba con un Bössendorfer, pero si me regalan un Fazioli lo acepto con gusto! 😁
Very nice. " If i seen further, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants ".
Sir Isaac Newton.
chopin did really like bach's music
Excellent, but I find an even closer kinship of Chopin's op. 10, no. 4 with wtc I , prelude in f# minor.
It’s very curious observation about Chopin’s Sonata. But I think Martin forgot to mention the very important emphasis that Chopin HONORED his master teacher. He did not just “include” his sound metaphor of cross into his own piece.
There's also a similarity between the theme of chopin's first sonata and the theme of bach's invention 1 in c major.
Actually in no.2 the Chopin etude op.10/4 is based on the f sharp minor prelude from the wtc1
Interesting. I'm not a classical music enthusiast but I always associated Chopin more with Mozart. Their piano pieces sound like they are singing. At least to make, I don't know if that makes sense for others though.
3:02 The funny thing with this one is I thought I recognized the piece but I knew I hadn’t heard the Bach - then he played the Mazurka and I realized I just thought it was Chopin in the first place.
The second theme of Bach's c#minor fugue is also very similar to chopin's theme of the op 64 no 2 waltz
Thank you, Fred. You're talking about the running 8th notes theme in the Bach (from bar 36)? And I'm assuming you meant the B section also with running 8th notes in your op 64/2 Waltz?
@@tonebasePiano indeed
A Fazioli piano is a: "If you have to ask the price, you can't afford it" piano. lol
I truly would be blown away if the Bach Cello Suite no. 1 Prelude no. 1-Chopin Prelude no. 3 would be the same as the Bach-Gounod Ave Maria. Or course it can't have the same lenght but the accompaniment in Chopin is not 1:1 Bach, like in the Gounod, isn't it? Still interesting.
Any reference to the fugal section of the 4th ballade? That seems like a complete nod to Bach.
Also, about that G major prelude, Paul McCartney was quoted as “slow down the intro to Sargeant Peppers so we’re not plagiarizing Chuck Berry!” Same can be applied here 😂
🌹🙏🌹
Everyone looked up at Bach!
But what about op. 10 n4(torrent) and the Prelude in F# minor, book 1? I find it much more similar haha
Oh that's a good one, thank you. I suppose it's the comment section's job to go find all the best examples!
I thought for No. 4 you were going to quote from Etude Op, 25, No. 7. After a bit of meandering in the intro that has the descending C# to B#, the E and D# appear right away in the left hand theme.
Very interesting idea. But I always thought that the etude in C# minor OP10 Nr4 was a lot inspired by the prelude in F# minor of WTC1 ! (much more than the prelude in Db major) What do you think about it ?
I might have a stupid question but I never studied music theory until I started the piano after my retirement. But wasn't Bach forgotten for a while? Who re-discovered him and when? When did people realize that he was so brilliant? I've seen many people talking about chords he used that no one else used until jazz pianists started using them 300 years later.
And how did they re-discover his works? By dribbles and drabs, or did his entire catalogue come out? When was Bach taught to musicians for music theory?
Not a stupid question. It's true Bach was "forgotten" to some degree by the general European public in the late 18th/early 19th centuries (remember that he didn't even have nearly the same fame as Handel or even Telemann in his own lifetime - and his son CPE was probably more widely recognized in the decades after his father's death). Mendelssohn famously "revived" Bach in concert with a milestone performance of the St. Matthew Passion in 1829. Forkel's biography came out around 1800, so folks weren't totally oblivious to Bach's music and his importance. And composers never forgot about Bach - Mozart, Beethoven, you name it... they were studying the portions of Bach's music quite closely in those intervening years. Chopin too, who was introduced to the Well-Tempered Clavier from a young age in Poland.
Bach's fame and genius has probably only grown in the past two centuries, and he's recognized as the precursor to a wide swath of styles and genres, including outside the classical realm.
Is this part of a new Tonebase lesson/course in collaboration with Martin Garcia?
yoss
This wasn't from a full production, but we'll do one with him eventually. What music would you like him to teach?
@@tonebasePiano Nocturne in C minor Op 48 no 1 that would be an absolute treat!!!😃 please
Thank you maestro!!
... and Beethoven was Chopin's master when Chopin copied the Moonlight sonata 3rd movement when he did his Fantasy Impromptu - also when Chopin copied Beethoven's 5th symphony theme near beginning of scherzo no.1...
😮😮😮
Everyone knows chopin was a big copycat. But we all still love and adore his music
The Steinway monopoly in the US means we won't see a Fazioli in our concert halls.
Chopin made no secret of the fact that he venerated Bach .
This is interesting. Was this intentional or did Chopin do it subconsciously??
There's a thread below where we talk about this. The answer is probably a bit of both, but for the most part one can never say for certain that this Chopin piece was directly inspired by that Bach piece, etc.
3:52 this isn't the BACH-motif transposed. It's d c# e d. The last note would have to be a d#, otherwise it's a transposed version of "BACB".
Whoops, good catch. So we'll just call it another "cross" motif. Bach's name is in Chopin's fugue, at least: www.bach-cantatas.com/NVD/PT-Chopin-F.htm
So Chopin was basically just metal Bach?! 🤘😎🤘
Well there is one GROSS oversight where Chopin practically quotes the subject of the opening of Bach's B flat major Fugue from Book 2 of the WTC and inserts it into the alto of a thick contrapuntal line in the fourth Ballade. Go to the 7:20 time mark of this wonderful harpsichord performance - czcams.com/video/irneC1jhpqg/video.html. Now go to about 5:49 time spot in this performance. The Ballade owes much to Bach for its subtle and at times greatly contrapuntal texture. Finally the very theme of the 4th Ballade can be derived from Bach's fugal subject of the B flat minor Fugue from WTC 2. Chopin hardly mimics it but his theme does employ the intervallic material of it and the tonal ambiguity they both start with. Got to 3 minute mark here - czcams.com/video/QIveGkUw2FI/video.html
And here is the 4th Ballade.czcams.com/video/7tmQSWuYwrI/video.html
Just a note --- the 1st Etude of Chopin employs a harmonic progression common before Bach even.
Garcia Garcia is a G
Fascinating video! Just a bit of a stretch (clickbait?) to call Bach "Chopin's master". Five examples of Chopin being inspired by Bach would be more accurate.
I'm surprised that, when talking about Étude Op.10 No.4, you didn't mention that bars 30 and 31 are pure Bach.
And when you mentioned Étude Op.10 No.1, for some reason you did NOT mention Chopin's first prelude in C major, which can be compared to Bach's first prelude just the same as Étude.
We thought of doing the 1st Chopin Prelude instead of the 1st Etude. You could go either way. We also considered comparing Op 25/12 to Bach C minor Prelude BWV 847. But there was limited time and we were not aspiring to be comprehensive. And there are SO many similarities you could find between Bach and Chopin... maybe it's the comment section's job to enumerate them! (So, thank you for your contributions :)
But Bach didn't have that much imagination as Chopin... The magic touch is Chopin at the end of the day...
When I saw the thumbnail, I thought he was jack black lol